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Discussion Forums => General Discussions => Topic started by: Semnae on October 30, 2015, 10:24:25 am

Title: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on October 30, 2015, 10:24:25 am
https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/ (https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/)

It is quite startling, in this day and age, that there are still those who will argue that the Sun travels around the Earth. How do you even respond to something like this? I could present a mountain of evidence proving the Earth travels around the Sun, but what good would it do? Any refutation would certainly fall on deaf ears.

I wager many of you would laugh and call them idiots. I feel sad for them. They are so blinded by delusion, they are unlikely ever to see the beauty of the real universe. I want to help people like them, but evidence and reason are useless in this endeavor. Like Thomas Paine said, "To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

I've heard many suggest that you cannot help people like this. It is said that I should just ignore them and let them believe whatever they want. That is just so sad. Like this, these two will never amount to anything more than a joke posted on various secular websites for people to make fun of. To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential. I would help them, if only I knew how.

Is there truly nothing that can be done?
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on October 30, 2015, 03:03:00 pm
Eh, it's your choice if you want to be a bleeding heart.  I'm not one and I never will be.  I don't feel pity or sympathy for people like the flat Earthers; I feel contempt for them.  I feel contempt for anyone who willfully ignores the facts in order to support an agenda that agrees with their personal beliefs.  I feel anger at people who deliberately propagate misinformation in an effort to mislead other people.  There are always some areas that are shades of gray, where many conclusions can be drawn from the facts, but there are other things that are simply black and white, and the latter is what I'm referring to.

Sem, you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped.  This is a hard lesson to learn but an important one, and it applies to many aspects of life.  Certainly in cases like this, it's important to fight lies and disinformation with facts, but you're deluding yourself if you think people like this want to be helped.  If you want to help, then focus your attention on the ignorant but open-minded, on the uneducated, not the indoctrinated.

To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential.

Wrong.  Everybody has potential.  Some people deliberately choose to waste theirs.  You cannot live somebody else's life for them, nor can you control them to do or say or think what you believe is right.  You also might want to reevaluate the 'worthless' judgment, as there are many misguided people in the world who are still good people and make a positive impact, despite what others might consider as shocking deficiencies of character or judgment.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: buchno on October 31, 2015, 01:01:24 am
You cannot reason with fanboys. (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2319992)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on October 31, 2015, 03:07:31 am
Eh, it's your choice if you want to be a bleeding heart.  I'm not one and I never will be.  I don't feel pity or sympathy for people like the flat Earthers; I feel contempt for them.  I feel contempt for anyone who willfully ignores the facts in order to support an agenda that agrees with their personal beliefs.

I can certainly understand that. Science deniers cause me a great deal of frustration. I cannot, however, feel contempt for all Science deniers. I was born into a Seventh Day Adventist family and have lived in the Bible Belt all my life. I am at ground zero for this kind of thinking. If I held contempt for every Science denier, I would hate everybody whose ever loved me, and there would be no joy in my life.

I feel anger at people who deliberately propagate misinformation in an effort to mislead other people.  There are always some areas that are shades of gray, where many conclusions can be drawn from the facts, but there are other things that are simply black and white, and the latter is what I'm referring to.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. Quackery seems more rampant with every passing day. I created a different thread not long ago about someone who sold a "cure" for cancer to a desperate parents. They told the parents that the pain the child was experiencing meant the treatment was working. They put bleach up the kids rectum until he died. I won't get into it again here because there's already a thread about that.

Sem, you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped.  This is a hard lesson to learn but an important one, and it applies to many aspects of life.  Certainly in cases like this, it's important to fight lies and disinformation with facts, but you're deluding yourself if you think people like this want to be helped.  If you want to help, then focus your attention on the ignorant but open-minded, on the uneducated, not the indoctrinated.

I already intend to take that course of action. I'm just a few hours of field based experiences away from getting my probationary teaching certificate. I think that if someone is taught the value of evidence based, critical thinking, it will inoculate them against pseudoscience. I went through the public school system, junior college, and university, got degrees in Science, and not a single teacher ever taught me what a logical fallacy or a cognitive bias was. That is the real tragedy. All over Texas, people are being educated, but not learning how to think critically.

It's easy to look at these two and say "this is your brain on religion", but that's only a symptom of the real problem. There's no need to attack religion, because the the real problem is a severe lack of critical thinking ability. If you can teach them that, they will reject religion all on there own without having to say a word against it. This is actually a good thing, because people identify with their religion and get offended when you criticize it. It makes much more sense to go after the source.

I disagree with you on one particular point. We can't exclusively teach critical thinking skills to the young. If you do that, things might get better in about 80 years, but who really wants to wait that long? Adults vote. Adults influence the world around them. Adults indoctrinate their children. People spend 3/4ths of their lives as adults. Most adults are no longer in school, so what the world desperately needs right now is a medium for teaching critical thinking skills to adults.

To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential.

Wrong.  Everybody has potential.  Some people deliberately choose to waste theirs.  You cannot live somebody else's life for them, nor can you control them to do or say or think what you believe is right.  You also might want to reevaluate the 'worthless' judgment, as there are many misguided people in the world who are still good people and make a positive impact, despite what others might consider as shocking deficiencies of character or judgment.

Is this really a choice? Most people are indoctrinated into what they believe based on their geography. How much free will can someone without basic thinking ability really have? The fact is, if you or I were born in the Middle East to a Muslim, science denying family, we'd likely be Muslim science deniers.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: capnmorgan on October 31, 2015, 05:34:35 am
Mankind has free will.  They exercise theirs by choosing to believe how they do.  You can either use yours to keep poking at the brick wall, or to move on.  That's usually why I just see something like this and let a "boobies" fly.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Mistgun_Zero on October 31, 2015, 05:41:29 am
@Semnae: Stop caring.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on October 31, 2015, 07:10:08 am
You cannot reason with fanboys. (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2319992)

I wish I read this before making my last post. Excellent article that sheds a lot of light on the issue!
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: GoGeTa006 on October 31, 2015, 07:10:19 am
There's a saying in spanish:
"No hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver"

---

"The worst kind of blind man is the one who doesn't want to see"


sad but true
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on October 31, 2015, 08:09:14 am
When I'm wrong, I want to know it. I actively try to find that out. But obviously there are people who don't think like that. It's really hard for me to empathise with them. Nevertheless, you can't reason with someone who refuses to be reasoned with. And remember that the freedom to think freely includes the freedom to think really dumb things.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Fool010 on October 31, 2015, 08:22:24 am
All over Texas, people are being educated, but not learning how to think critically.

Not specific to Texas. Educative systems all over the world fail because they only provide knowledge, not education. Knowledge itself is only a tool, as such it's useless if you don't teach what that tool can do and how you can use it. Any tool is just as good as the one using it. A good tool will allow you to do more, even push back your limitations but in the end, those limitations will remain. Because that's what science is, a mean, not an end. That's what too many atheists and science worshipers tend to forget. Science is no alternative to belief for one simple reason .... it's not meant to. Both science and religion are our creations, but science evolved with us while religion didn't. Science represents what we are now and gives glimpses of what we may become whereas religion represents what we once were.

In the end, they're meant to answer different questions. It's not a matter of which one should be exclusively used, that's not why we created them. They're supposed to coexist, but for some reason we kept evolving our science while religion stood still. Science is a great tool when it comes to all things mechanic -in the broadest sense possible-, unfortunately man is a bit more than just an organic machine. You can't teach everyone critical thinking for a simple reason : not everyone can.

Let's at least get rid of something, science doesn't turn you into a better person. If you're a sack of shit, you'll be one either religion or science fuels you. Science doesn't prevent you from being an asshole.

Religion fails because it's supposed to answer a question that can't be answered : why ?

On the other hand, science had a much better pick. No matter how complex the answer, "how ?" is a much easier question to answer.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on October 31, 2015, 01:52:44 pm
I disagree with you on one particular point. We can't exclusively teach critical thinking skills to the young. If you do that, things might get better in about 80 years, but who really wants to wait that long? Adults vote. Adults influence the world around them. Adults indoctrinate their children. People spend 3/4ths of their lives as adults. Most adults are no longer in school, so what the world desperately needs right now is a medium for teaching critical thinking skills to adults.

You can only teach somebody who wants to be taught.  This is why public education is important - to counter some of the harmful influences that adults have on their children.  But you're basically pissing into the wind trying to change the mind of a hardened believer.  I'm paraphrasing a saying here, but it's still apt:  arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon -- you'll just look like an idiot yourself and the pigeon's just going to shit all over the board.


To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential.

Wrong.  Everybody has potential.  Some people deliberately choose to waste theirs.  You cannot live somebody else's life for them, nor can you control them to do or say or think what you believe is right.  You also might want to reevaluate the 'worthless' judgment, as there are many misguided people in the world who are still good people and make a positive impact, despite what others might consider as shocking deficiencies of character or judgment.

Is this really a choice? Most people are indoctrinated into what they believe based on their geography. How much free will can someone without basic thinking ability really have? The fact is, if you or I were born in the Middle East to a Muslim, science denying family, we'd likely be Muslim science deniers.

Sure, and if you want to fight against that, feel free to head to the Middle East.  Just be careful you don't end up becoming a news story on CNN.  Another really important life lesson is to know how to pick and choose your battles.  Weirdly, you're beginning to sound like a liberal Atheist equivalent of those Christian missionaries that head out into parts unknown to meddle with other people's beliefs.  It's not a vocation I particularly approve of.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: mgz on November 01, 2015, 07:16:52 am
https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/ (https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/)

It is quite startling, in this day and age, that there are still those who will argue that the Sun travels around the Earth. How do you even respond to something like this? I could present a mountain of evidence proving the Earth travels around the Sun, but what good would it do? Any refutation would certainly fall on deaf ears.

I wager many of you would laugh and call them idiots. I feel sad for them. They are so blinded by delusion, they are unlikely ever to see the beauty of the real universe. I want to help people like them, but evidence and reason are useless in this endeavor. Like Thomas Paine said, "To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

I've heard many suggest that you cannot help people like this. It is said that I should just ignore them and let them believe whatever they want. That is just so sad. Like this, these two will never amount to anything more than a joke posted on various secular websites for people to make fun of. To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential. I would help them, if only I knew how.

Is there truly nothing that can be done?
tldr if people believe that shit they shouldnt be people you talk to or associate with the math has proven we rotate around the sun and has been available for quite some time.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on November 01, 2015, 09:22:29 am
I wouldn't fault someone for merely questioning how we know the Earth is flat but a minimum of research should give them plenty of evidence, even if they have a paranoid distrust of any information coming from governments.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Fool010 on November 01, 2015, 12:35:27 pm
I wouldn't fault someone for merely questioning how we know the Earth is flat but a minimum of research should give them plenty of evidence, even if they have a paranoid distrust of any information coming from governments.

Contrary to most common misconceptions, even catholic scholars during the so-called dark ages widely considered the earth to be spherical. Backward thinking was imposed at higher hierarchical levels. Religion itself isn't the issue, organized religion is. It uses the spiritual need of the many to control them. Keep the masses ignorant and scared and they'll obey. That being said, politics work the exact same way.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Saras on November 01, 2015, 12:43:20 pm
I'm surprised that people consider public education to be a tool to bring knowledge. At best, it's a tertiary priority. The first one is to get the little barbarians to function in society.

Deep down think about the actual material these kids cover and the amount of knowledge they retain. Compare university to high school, the amount of stuff you cover in a semester of university is probably significantly more material than you do in two years of high school.

For an institution that's supposedly focused on education of the mind, it moves at a snails pace AND has next to no sticking factor to the brain. Basically no one remembers shit after a month or two.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: ErebusAngel on November 05, 2015, 10:13:35 am
Knowing the truth and wanting to know the truth are certainly correct ways for humans to go forward. But I don't think that not knowing or being misinformed by itself is wrong. In the story, Sherlock Holmes didn't know that the earth revolved around the sun nor did he care to find out  before Watson told him but he knew about everything that he needed to know to be a detective. The point is, it shouldn't really matter whether there are some people who doesn't know or misunderstands certain information unless:

1. They are actively spreading the incorrect information.
2. They are actively hampering the people who are seeking out the truth.
3. They are actively stopping people from applying their knowledge of the truth to improve society (like in the case of vaccines).
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on November 05, 2015, 10:29:55 am
I'd think #2 applies by default. It's hard to seek the truth when you are already convinced you have the answer.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on December 09, 2015, 02:11:00 am
Here's an interesting study that show the relationship between intelligence and religiosity.

http://m.psr.sagepub.com/content/17/4/325 (http://m.psr.sagepub.com/content/17/4/325)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: capnmorgan on December 09, 2015, 08:32:51 am
Then according to the logic of the link, in no possible way should I have been able to successfully argue with you, fool10, or anyone else on this forum about any subject whatsoever seeing as how I am religious. According to the results of your supplied thesis, you should have already won every argument and therefore negated the need for any of us to be here.  Long story short, Semnae spends more time surfing the web just to say folks who follow a religion are stupid. We get it, you're the oppressed atheist who sees himself as a pariah and is waiting to be martyred for the TRUTH! Either move on or hop up on a tree and hand someone a nailgun. This in the middle shit is getting old.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Fool010 on December 10, 2015, 06:45:20 am
I actually somehow agree with the baseline idea about stupid people being more prone to religion. It still doesn't mean everyone who believes is an idiot, neither does it mean you have to be an idiot to believe. When you're a religious idiot, you were an idiot before embracing religion and you'd still be one if you turned away from religion. Religion isn't a cause for idiocy, it can be a consequence from idiocy.

To rephrase the topic title, this is a case when science fails at reason.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on January 26, 2016, 11:05:51 pm
You'd expect this sort of thing from the poor and uneducated, but it looks like people who believe the Earth is flat have just gained a celebrity figurehead. B.o.B. just came out as a Flat Earther. (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/26/entertainment/rapper-bob-earth-flat-theory/index.html) Neil deGrasse Tyson himself tried to educate him, but B.o.B. responded by creating a diss track.

Edit: Neil's son, Steve Tyson, who also happens to be a rapper, released his own counter diss track (http://www.popsci.com/bob-released-neil-degrasse-tyson-diss-track?src=SOC&dom=fb). I guess it's on now!
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on January 27, 2016, 12:12:23 am
I saw this the other day.  I continue to wonder why people care what celebrities have to say.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: jaybug on January 27, 2016, 01:56:52 am
It's only going to get worse if you keep feeding the bureaucracies, instead of nurturing the people the bureaucracies are supposed to support.

News flash from the University of Oregon president, they need to hire several more federal compliance officers, before they can start hiring more professors. Brilliant!
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on January 27, 2016, 04:28:17 am
Leave it to Jay to turn a comment about idiot celebrities into another jab at bureaucracies.  Did a bureaucrat run over your dog or something when you were a kid?  I bet you hate Hermes Conrad in Futurama too.  You know, sometimes people are just idiots.  Everything in life is not automatically the result of some bureaucracy's failure somewhere.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: jaybug on January 27, 2016, 05:47:22 am
Leave it to Jay to turn a comment about idiot celebrities into another jab at bureaucracies.  Did a bureaucrat run over your dog or something when you were a kid?  I bet you hate Hermes Conrad in Futurama too.  You know, sometimes people are just idiots.  Everything in life is not automatically the result of some bureaucracy's failure somewhere.

Yeah, but most of those don't get paid for with my taxes. I really think we should be avoiding hiring idiots to run our bureaucracies. It's probably my imagination, but didn't WE used to hire more capable people, before the saying those who can, work for a living, those who can't, work for the government? It was before my time, I know. So maybe I am imagining a Golden Era of government work.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on January 27, 2016, 12:17:45 pm
Yeah, but most of those don't get paid for with my taxes. I really think we should be avoiding hiring idiots to run our bureaucracies. It's probably my imagination, but didn't WE used to hire more capable people, before the saying those who can, work for a living, those who can't, work for the government? It was before my time, I know. So maybe I am imagining a Golden Era of government work.

It's entirely your imagination.  Corruption, inefficiency, and bad decisions are a hallmark of humanity.  It didn't start in the 1970s, or the 1940s, or even in 2000 B.C.  There is not now nor has there ever been a Golden Era of government work.  You should always be suspicious of any sense of nostalgia which tells you, "Things were better back in the old days!"  They weren't.  That's just your brain wishing for times when you had fewer responsibilities and knew less about the world and how it works.  Go read up on the Gilded Age, and then tell me that the government was so much better then.

You act like bureaucrats are some kind of alien species.  They're not.  Bureaucrats are all of us.  I work in the private sector, but I work for a Fortune 500 company comprised mostly of other companies that were purchased and then cobbled together into a larger organism, like a Frankenstein of companies.  I see bureaucratic inefficiency and bad decisions all the time.

I see one business unit doing critical work for another, but lying to the other business unit about their ability to get the job done.  (This is going on right now on a major project which I expect is going to go KABOOM! within the next few weeks.  Everybody knows it, and the status of the project has been escalated multiple times because the project team can't get traction or resources, but are the executives doing anything about it?  Take a guess.)

I see one group of people in a company madly stampeding to fix something without regards to the impact or the potential to screw something else up, while other groups vainly try to enforce some sort of control over things to keep our company from shooting itself in the foot.

I see members of one business unit receive work tickets from another unit.  Members of the first unit take 2-3 weeks to respond to a request for work, then do the work wrong or not at all, then close out the ticket without explanation, and then refuse to do the job right or even respond to inquiries until another ticket is opened -- and maybe they'll get to that one in another 2-3 weeks.

Hell, even *I'm* not above using process and procedure to make somebody I don't like go away, and "do it right" before I'll do work for them.  It depends on my mood, how busy I am, and whether or not that person has pissed me off recently.

So, yeah, please remind me again how government has the monopoly on bureaucratic inefficiency and bad decisions.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on January 27, 2016, 02:11:32 pm
I really don't get flatearters. Literally all you have to do is have a skype conversation with something on the other side of the Earth and realize their days and nights don't coincide with yours.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on January 28, 2016, 12:19:18 am
I really don't get flatearters. Literally all you have to do is have a skype conversation with something on the other side of the Earth and realize their days and nights don't coincide with yours.

Yeah I pretty much guarantee that anyone working in IT / software development in the U.S. has had to be on a conference call with someone in India before.  Hyderabad is 10.5 hours ahead of Florida.

Also, I read your typo as "flate arters" and for a split second, I was wondering what kind of art is flate.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on January 28, 2016, 05:00:10 am
When I worked for Videotron, we had tech support contractors in Egypt but for some dumb reasons Videotron only gave night shifts to its own Employees. It all makes sense now! It's irrefutable PROOF that Videotron is part of the Reptilian Illuminatii and The Round Earth is the BIG LIE THEY want you to believe to HIDE the TRUTH! Wake up SHEEPLES!!!!!! *puts one tinfold hat*
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: jaybug on January 28, 2016, 06:50:50 am
I really don't get flatearters. Literally all you have to do is have a skype conversation with something on the other side of the Earth and realize their days and nights don't coincide with yours.

Yeah I pretty much guarantee that anyone working in IT / software development in the U.S. has had to be on a conference call with someone in India before.  Hyderabad is 10.5 hours ahead of Florida.

Also, I read your typo as "flate arters" and for a split second, I was wondering what kind of art is flate.

Music. Using the musical fruit, beans. Flate-u-late. It's truly a one of a kind art, in that it is full of shit, that no one can deny.

Tin foil hat Burk. Unless you made a ten fold hat. 100 folds is proper for a chefs hat.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Burkingam on January 28, 2016, 11:46:12 am
I kno no ho too gramar coz goverment mine cuntrol!!
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: capnmorgan on January 28, 2016, 02:29:02 pm
BOOBIES!!!
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on January 28, 2016, 10:52:35 pm
Bahahahahahaha! Neil is so awesome! (https://www.facebook.com/thenightlyshow/videos/461260440745263/)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: capnmorgan on January 29, 2016, 06:56:42 am
Bahahahahahaha! Neil is so awesome! (https://www.facebook.com/thenightlyshow/videos/461260440745263/)

Was there ever any doubt?  By the way Sem, you reminded me of this (https://youtu.be/8yis7GzlXNM)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: JD75 on January 30, 2016, 02:23:54 am
Doesn't Hip Hop have enough clowns like Vinnie Paz and Hopsin?  :-|

A lot of talk surrounding the track is of being "open-minded" or a "free thinker". It seems that those terms simply mean accepting whatever resonates with you the most. To be open-minded nowadays is to begin to abandon truth; to start creating your own narrative. Nothing good comes from that.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on January 30, 2016, 04:24:33 am
Doesn't Hip Hop have enough clowns like Vinnie Paz and Hopsin?  :-|

A lot of talk surrounding the track is of being "open-minded" or a "free thinker". It seems that those terms simply mean accepting whatever resonates with you the most. To be open-minded nowadays is to begin to abandon truth; to start creating your own narrative. Nothing good comes from that.

You've reminded me of a video I recently watched.
http://youtu.be/T69TOuqaqXI (http://youtu.be/T69TOuqaqXI)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Tatsujin on February 06, 2016, 03:49:54 am
https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/ (https://www.facebook.com/godlessengineering/videos/779965412125396/)

It is quite startling, in this day and age, that there are still those who will argue that the Sun travels around the Earth. How do you even respond to something like this? I could present a mountain of evidence proving the Earth travels around the Sun, but what good would it do? Any refutation would certainly fall on deaf ears.

I wager many of you would laugh and call them idiots. I feel sad for them. They are so blinded by delusion, they are unlikely ever to see the beauty of the real universe. I want to help people like them, but evidence and reason are useless in this endeavor. Like Thomas Paine said, "To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

I've heard many suggest that you cannot help people like this. It is said that I should just ignore them and let them believe whatever they want. That is just so sad. Like this, these two will never amount to anything more than a joke posted on various secular websites for people to make fun of. To give up on them amounts to admitting there are people in this world that are worthless and have no potential. I would help them, if only I knew how.

Is there truly nothing that can be done?
lol .... I'm just trying to understand the guy in the video ... is he for real? The earth doesn't move?
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on March 21, 2017, 12:20:38 am
Shaquille O'Neal, famous basketball star, just came out as a flat Earther. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/03/shaquille-oneal-world-flat-satellite-imagery-fake/)
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Ixarku on March 21, 2017, 12:45:09 am
Shaquille O'Neal, famous basketball star, just came out as a flat Earther. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/03/shaquille-oneal-world-flat-satellite-imagery-fake/)

This makes me sad.  In every interview I've ever seen with him, he seemed like a genuinely decent fellow.  It's a shame that he holds such moronic beliefs.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: Semnae on March 21, 2017, 02:19:52 am
Sem, you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped.  This is a hard lesson to learn but an important one, and it applies to many aspects of life.  Certainly in cases like this, it's important to fight lies and disinformation with facts, but you're deluding yourself if you think people like this want to be helped.  If you want to help, then focus your attention on the ignorant but open-minded, on the uneducated, not the indoctrinated.

I already intend to take that course of action. I'm just a few hours of field based experiences away from getting my probationary teaching certificate. I think that if someone is taught the value of evidence based, critical thinking, it will inoculate them against pseudoscience. I went through the public school system, junior college, and university, got degrees in Science, and not a single teacher ever taught me what a logical fallacy or a cognitive bias was. That is the real tragedy. All over Texas, people are being educated, but not learning how to think critically.

I just reread this from the first page. Oh the hindsight! I spent months in figurative Hell chasing this this futile goal.

"Sem, you cannot help someone who does not want to be helped.  This is a hard lesson to learn but an important one, and it applies to many aspects of life."

That quote was near prophetic. I sure learned that lesson the hard way.

As for focusing on the open-minded but uneducated, that was a total failure. It sounds good in theory, but it is a frustrating daily struggle just to get my students to repeat something I literally just told them. It isn't possible to teach them critical thinking skill, because they don't even have the ability to simply recall information.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. One day, I asked a student a question. He didn't know the answer, so I told him the answer, and asked the next student a different question. He didn't know the answer, so I gave it to him. I then went to the previous student and asked him the same exact question I asked him before. He didn't know the answer, so I gave it to him again. I then turned to the second student and did the same thing, with the exact same result. I kept going back and forth between these two students for 15 minutes before giving up and moving on. It began to feel cruel, like I was singling out these two students and embarrassing them in front of all their peers. I could have done this all day to no avail. I have 120 students, and the vast majority retain information about as well as Dory from Finding Nemo.
Title: Re: Where Reason and Science Fail
Post by: capnmorgan on March 21, 2017, 02:49:46 am
Shaquille O'Neal, famous basketball star, just came out as a flat Earther. (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2017/03/shaquille-oneal-world-flat-satellite-imagery-fake/)

This makes me sad.  In every interview I've ever seen with him, he seemed like a genuinely decent fellow.  It's a shame that he holds such moronic beliefs.

I wonder if he's just bored and decided to troll the world.  Oh well, back to taxes.  Later peeps!