Author Topic: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions  (Read 153349 times)

Offline OnDeed

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2240 on: February 28, 2017, 01:01:53 pm »
Seems that AMD had further few benchmarks on the Event that were not posted on most sites (maybe they were not meant to): http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1331380

There's Handbrake for R7 1700 and R7 1800X, although no information about settings/profile/resolution/etc.

Online kitamesume

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2241 on: March 02, 2017, 11:25:44 pm »
so Ryzen reviews are out.

to sum it up:
Ryzen 8C/16T OC average is 3.9Ghz (1.35v) with peak OC of 4.2Ghz (~1.45v) on all cores
Ryzen uses considerably less power than Intel's lineup
Ryzen single-core average IPC is slightly above Haswell
Ryzen 8C/16T average IPS is slightly below Broadwell 8C/16T at similar clocks
Ryzen 8C/16T average gaming performance is lower than intel's lineup including 4C/8T
Ryzen Hyperthreading is slightly superior to intel's Hyperthreading
Ryzen SATA-based SSD performance is weaker than intel's (possibly SATA driver issues)

known difference compared to LGA2011:
priced much lower than intel's lineup
2channel DDR4 instead of 4channel DDR4
16 PCIe CPU lanes instead of 40 PCIe CPU lanes (28 for lesser chips)
16MB L3 Cache instead of 20MB L3 Cache

some issues with Ryzen:
Ryzen access between CCX has high latency
Ryzen Inifinity Fabric (HyperTransport) is slow
overall cache latency is higher than intel's
overall memory latency is higher than intel's
BLCK overclocking is unstable (same with intel platform)
some issues with regards to DDR4 clock speed support
possible SATA driver issues on all motherboards


strictly speaking, the performance of Ryzen is somewhat like having a dual socket 4C/8T + 4C/8T rig.
the performance of Ryzen is pretty much along the lines of Haswell, but with the disjointed CCX the overall performance is notably lower.
on this point, overclocking can't fix the latency issue, however the overall performance is still adequate.


TL;DR - Ryzen is worth it.

now i'm looking forward to seeing Ryzen 6C/12T benchmarks, supposedly its going to be released later next quarter.

edit: updated with more info and some minor adjustments.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:23:33 pm by kitamesume »

Offline halfelite

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2242 on: March 03, 2017, 07:32:37 am »

TL;DR - Ryzen is worth it.

now i'm looking forward to seeing Ryzen 6C/12T benchmarks, supposedly its going to be released later next quarter.

If you are a serious gamer Ryzen is not worth it. If you are an everyday computer user ryzen is worth it.  But its still a bit sad when you think about it. The current intel series has not had a huge change since 2008. They have had there tick/toc starting in 2008 up until now with minor speed improvements every generation. SO hopefully this will make them get to the drawing board and come up with something new. But this is what will happen AMD will start gaining market share. Intel will release an I5 with hyperthreading enabled its price/performance will be the best bang for the buck Intel will gain back market share and back to square one.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:46:09 am by halfelite »

Online kitamesume

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2243 on: March 08, 2017, 01:14:27 pm »
well yes if your PC is only meant for gaming then its not really the best choice.
on the other hand it's price is good considering you get twice as many cores with its decent performance.
with this in mind, for a general purpose PC for you end up with a more cost effective rig.

and on that note, if you already have a Haswell or higher rig, theres not much point in upgrading.
unless your rig has different workloads like autocad or video editing, something where an 8core Ryzen chip can out-perform a 4core or 6core intel chip.


so in my case i might abstain, digging up a couple of reviews here and there came up with a bunch of issues i might not like.
and considering i already have an i5 6500 skylake rig, albeit a bit lacking, would hold for me until AMD releases a version2 Zen processor.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 02:36:15 am by kitamesume »

Offline Msiku

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2244 on: March 08, 2017, 11:49:53 pm »
well, zen actually isnt bad for gaming

being 5-10fps behind the i7 7700k when at 4GHz isnt something to scoff at

the 6core/12t will strike a good balance at a low price. When vulkan finally gets added to more future titles then it looks like AMD are going to do something better at least.

also be aware SMT is buggy and disabling it means you match 7700k performance

Online kitamesume

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2245 on: March 09, 2017, 02:39:11 am »
buggy in a sense that they'll need a driver update for the OS, so its not really an issue in the long run.


i'm worried whether they could overclock at all, this would affect whether the single-thread performance will regress if i switch from skylake to Ryzen.
the previous OC attempts on the 8C/16T chips weren't temp bottlenecked but voltage bottlenecked, in such that going past 4Ghz requires above 1.4v.
this indicates that the OC limitation is based on the process they used, which from what i heard was based on Samsung's LPP mobile process.

with that in mind, the OC capability of both 6C/12T and 4C/8T may not be much better, e.g. maybe just 100Mhz higher or so.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 07:13:23 am by kitamesume »

Offline halfelite

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2246 on: March 09, 2017, 06:16:24 pm »
well, zen actually isnt bad for gaming

being 5-10fps behind the i7 7700k when at 4GHz isnt something to scoff at

the 6core/12t will strike a good balance at a low price. When vulkan finally gets added to more future titles then it looks like AMD are going to do something better at least.

also be aware SMT is buggy and disabling it means you match 7700k performance

There is a slight miscalculation in the 5-10fps difference. When people are testing on say a 1080gtx then yes there is a 5-10fps difference as the GPU is still taking the load if you test on a gtx980 then the ryzen chips fall far behind. This is why you are now seeing benchmarks of games running at 1080p/1440/720 as it shows when the cpu has to take the load the performance drops a lot. Now at face value this does not seem that huge. But if you take into consideration say you bought a 1070 this year come next year the 1070 might not keep up with games and more load will fall the the cpu so the ryzen might not last you a year. 

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2247 on: March 09, 2017, 10:52:42 pm »
you take into consideration say you bought a 1070 this year come next year the 1070 might not keep up with games and more load will fall the the cpu so the ryzen might not last you a year. 
That is not how it works man  ;D

Because we can!

Offline halfelite

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2248 on: March 10, 2017, 06:49:18 am »
you take into consideration say you bought a 1070 this year come next year the 1070 might not keep up with games and more load will fall the the cpu so the ryzen might not last you a year. 
That is not how it works man  ;D

Yes that is how it works. explain how it does not work like that.  If you compare any game. Run it on a gtx1080 at 1440 and performance will almost be on par with each other as the GPU is the bottleneck. Now even on the same card tell it to output 1080p and the ryzen performance will drop as you shifted more load onto the CPU. Compare any game with a gtx980 and a ryzen vs intel you will see again ryzen drops even further. Once the load of gaming is shifted to ryzen its single-threaded performance and clock speed kills it.

for an example say you built a gaming rig before the 1080gtx came out and you are running on an a 980 with an intel 6700k. And A game that is a good example is bioshock. You are running bioshock at 1080p with setting set to low your FPS with the card and the 6700k would be 320 now swap out the 6700 for a 1800 ryzen your fps now drop to 202. Now that many FPS is to high to make a difference but its a good example with big numbers. The more load that is shift from the GPU to the CPU in gaming kills the ryzen performance the longer you sit with an older GPU the more the CPU plays a role so you are either upgrading the CPU or GPU or Both to maintain the Performance. For the most part with the Intel you have been able to go a few years on a CPU/GPU combo.

Offline Govna

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2249 on: March 10, 2017, 01:56:28 pm »
you take into consideration say you bought a 1070 this year come next year the 1070 might not keep up with games and more load will fall the the cpu so the ryzen might not last you a year. 
That is not how it works man  ;D

Yes that is how it works. explain how it does not work like that.  If you compare any game. Run it on a gtx1080 at 1440 and performance will almost be on par with each other as the GPU is the bottleneck. Now even on the same card tell it to output 1080p and the ryzen performance will drop as you shifted more load onto the CPU. Compare any game with a gtx980 and a ryzen vs intel you will see again ryzen drops even further. Once the load of gaming is shifted to ryzen its single-threaded performance and clock speed kills it.

for an example say you built a gaming rig before the 1080gtx came out and you are running on an a 980 with an intel 6700k. And A game that is a good example is bioshock. You are running bioshock at 1080p with setting set to low your FPS with the card and the 6700k would be 320 now swap out the 6700 for a 1800 ryzen your fps now drop to 202. Now that many FPS is to high to make a difference but its a good example with big numbers. The more load that is shift from the GPU to the CPU in gaming kills the ryzen performance the longer you sit with an older GPU the more the CPU plays a role so you are either upgrading the CPU or GPU or Both to maintain the Performance. For the most part with the Intel you have been able to go a few years on a CPU/GPU combo.

A GPU load does not become a CPU load because your GPU is old/incapable. They kinda do very different things.

Offline halfelite

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2250 on: March 10, 2017, 05:42:15 pm »

A GPU load does not become a CPU load because your GPU is old/incapable. They kinda do very different things.

Bad term to say the load of the GPU shifts. The amount of data the cpu pushes to the card is what changes. If you game at 1440 the GPU is your bottleneck you will have 100% gpu utilization with a bit lower CPU utilization. If you now game at 1080p you will have lower GPU utilization but higher cpu utilization.  This is where the ryzen has its downfall. AMD's answers so far have been dont game on low resolutions and games need to be optimized. Which I agree games need to be optimized. But as someone uses an older PC for gaming they tend to lower the resolution to milk the the amount of FPS they can get out of games on the system they are using. So if you are lowering your resolution to bypass your GPU bottleneck on new games the intel still performs strong and lets you keep gaming. On the other hand this process as of currently does not work on the ryzen

Offline Govna

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2251 on: March 10, 2017, 07:13:33 pm »

A GPU load does not become a CPU load because your GPU is old/incapable. They kinda do very different things.

Bad term to say the load of the GPU shifts. The amount of data the cpu pushes to the card is what changes. If you game at 1440 the GPU is your bottleneck you will have 100% gpu utilization with a bit lower CPU utilization. If you now game at 1080p you will have lower GPU utilization but higher cpu utilization.  This is where the ryzen has its downfall. AMD's answers so far have been dont game on low resolutions and games need to be optimized. Which I agree games need to be optimized. But as someone uses an older PC for gaming they tend to lower the resolution to milk the the amount of FPS they can get out of games on the system they are using. So if you are lowering your resolution to bypass your GPU bottleneck on new games the intel still performs strong and lets you keep gaming. On the other hand this process as of currently does not work on the ryzen

That's not true at all. It's perfectly possible to have a full gpu load right now at 1080p. Resolution does not directly affect CPU load, since the processes that are running on the CPU tend to be unaffected by the resolution you're playing at.

Ryzen's 'games need to be optimized' doesn't mean what you think it means. Ryzen is a new architecture, and one of the changes it brings is how the cache affects loads. It means it needs to be specifically addressed within the game to handle (apparently, I assume since that's what AMD seems to be saying, that it can't just be a driver fix.)

Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep saying stuff.

Offline halfelite

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2252 on: March 11, 2017, 01:28:59 am »


That's not true at all. It's perfectly possible to have a full gpu load right now at 1080p. Resolution does not directly affect CPU load, since the processes that are running on the CPU tend to be unaffected by the resolution you're playing at.

Ryzen's 'games need to be optimized' doesn't mean what you think it means. Ryzen is a new architecture, and one of the changes it brings is how the cache affects loads. It means it needs to be specifically addressed within the game to handle (apparently, I assume since that's what AMD seems to be saying, that it can't just be a driver fix.)

Basically, you have no idea what you're talking about. But keep saying stuff.

https://www.techpowerup.com/231198/amd-responds-to-ryzens-lower-than-expected-1080p-performance  so tell me again how the resolution is not effect cpu load. When even AMD the maker of the chip that understands that architecture is saying it has problems. And every benchmark out shows it has problems when the game is CPU bound

When you game at 1440 or 4k or whatever you bottleneck is the GPU when you game at 1080p on the same card your bottleneck is now the CPU your CPU is still spitting out the same instructions for the frame and ai of the game for the gpu to draw. At 1440 the GPU hits a max for number of frames it can render. At 1080p the card no longer hits that target  and can access more data faster.  There for at 1080p your cpu is spitting out instructions faster then if it was at 1440 and you become CPU bound. Take a 4770 from 2013 3 years ago pair it with a 1080gtx and have a ryzen 1800 paired with a 1080gtx. Run them at 1440 the performance will be almost identical. Now change the resolution to 1080p. The 3 year old 4770 will outperform the 1800. So what does this mean. As people get older hardware you no longer run games at ultra settings. Now if the game still hits the GPU wall before it hits the CPU wall you are fine. So if you play bioshock and the amount of frames the card can handle at 1080p is lower then the speed at which the cpu calls out its instructions you will be fine. Now if the gpu can call more instructions then the cpu can handle you will hit the cpu wall.

take the two benchmarks below playing on ultra on a 980 you will see the benchmarks are pretty close as the 980 GPU is hitting its limit



Now look when you lower the settings the GPU is no longer hitting its limit so its getting more data from the CPU now there is a huge difference.



But wait you just said cpu performance is not effected by the resolution but somehow dropping the resolution widens the gap in performance by a lot if it was liner like you are suggesting it should scale the same. So yes i agree with you If you have a full GPU load of 100% you are hitting the GPU bottleneck not CPU and performance will not be effected. Now if you have a 50% load on the GPU you will hit the CPU bottleneck then which is the slow single thread performance of the ryzen performance could be effected.  I dont play enough games to know how that would scale to real world. The question would be if your card can not handle 1440 so you are dropping to 1080p does the game still max your GPU. Or are you then hitting the CPU limit and how does that correlate to in game performance the above example does not matter outside of pure specs as you wont an FPS that high.  But with that in mind one could assume there are instances when lowering the resolution might hit the max cpu limit and that be the limiting factor of your game play.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 02:02:48 am by halfelite »

Offline Govna

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2253 on: March 11, 2017, 08:13:31 pm »
--------

Look at all that not understanding you're doing.

Most things resolution related are not CPU bound, but some are. Like I said above, the biggest difference for AMD's Ryzen is how they handle cache. You can tell the article you linked has no interest in the actually loads or issues facing AMD right now, since they mention nothing but PR talk. I bet a lot of it has to do with certain games using path rendering for UI.

But go ahead and keep declaring things you don't understanding because other people that don't understand things (journalist) declare them too.

Also I guess you didn't read your own graphs, because they dropped the graphics detail, not the resolution.

Offline Msiku

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Re: Future Computer Parts / General Computer Discussions
« Reply #2254 on: March 12, 2017, 01:06:45 am »
and even then, it's a stupid way of measuring gaming cpu performance to make settings as low as possible.