Author Topic: *Keywords Improvement Project*  (Read 49985 times)

Offline Southrop

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 5249
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2013, 11:06:33 am »
Short episodes:
Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
these are done. Thanks.


Maybe have a distinction for Korean and Chinese animations since there are several of them on the tracker, and then a catch-all for other Asian countries since there are fewer of them? I have no idea if there are any Thai or Lao animations on here or anything else like that, but it's a thought anyway.

Another thought is instead of using "Korean animation" or "Chinese animation," it could be "Korean language" or "Chinese language" with a note made that it is only used for uploads where that is the original language of the upload. That would discount uploads that just happen to have a Chinese/Korean audio track amongst others, unless it's decided they should be tagged anyway since they do have Chinese/Korean as a possible audio. Then live action could be included in the tag with no confusion, the Taiwanese/Chinese problem is resolved since Chinese is largely still spoken there in its productions, and the manhwa problem is avoided.

Also, Chinese Live Action:
http://bakabt.me/151312-riki-oh-the-story-of-riki.html
What catch-all are you proposing? "Asian" covers Korean, Chinese and Japanese too, so there is still an overlap.

Using Language is not a good indicator. Something can be Korean Animation but have different voices. For example, Pucca has Korean animation but English voices. Also, there isn't one language called "Chinese". Chinese is a broad term and covers a ton of varieties and dialects, including but not limited to Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien (and its variants including Taiwanese Hokkien), Hakka, etc. Most of them are not mutually intelligible, so speakers of one generally won't understand what speakers of another say.

Also not sure how the manhwa problem is resolved, since manhwa is Korean and manhua is Chinese.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 11:29:41 am by Southrop »

Online Al_Sleeper

  • Member
  • Posts: 8514
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2013, 12:25:51 pm »
IMHO, the best solution would be 'Korean/Chinese Production' keyword with the comment 'Use Manhwa/Manhua for manga', and additional keyword 'Taiwanese' reserved for anything produced in Taiwan, including Taiwanese manhua.

The question of compatibility of 'Chinese Production' with 'Taiwanese' should be discussed separately. IMHO, they should be compatible, i.e. 'Taiwanese' should be considered a subgroup of 'Chinese Production'.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 12:35:33 pm by Al_Sleeper »

Offline Triltaison

  • Member
  • Posts: 677
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2013, 06:42:31 pm »
What catch-all are you proposing? "Asian" covers Korean, Chinese and Japanese too, so there is still an overlap.

Using Language is not a good indicator. Something can be Korean Animation but have different voices. For example, Pucca has Korean animation but English voices. Also, there isn't one language called "Chinese". Chinese is a broad term and covers a ton of varieties and dialects, including but not limited to Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien (and its variants including Taiwanese Hokkien), Hakka, etc. Most of them are not mutually intelligible, so speakers of one generally won't understand what speakers of another say.

Also not sure how the manhwa problem is resolved, since manhwa is Korean and manhua is Chinese.

The region of Southeast Asia doesn't include China, the Koreas, or Japan. However, it doesn't include Taiwan either (which I thought it did). So I guess it wouldn't work anyway, unless we do have a lot of Cambodian or Filipino stuff.

Oh, I know there's a variety of Chinese languages. Most of the offers I noticed that include it as a dialogue option never specify whether it's Cantonese or Mandarin or any other dialect, though. They just say blanket "Chinese" most of the time, which doesn't really mean anything.

I thought the manhwa problem was that if "Korean" were being used as its tag, it would be confused with the animation from the same country and it was wanted to be a distinct keyword. Since all the manga is scanlated into English, the audio being the definer would erase the issue. Same for the Chinese stuff. My apologies, should have read it more clearly.

I rather like the "Production" idea, though. The only issue I could see is the blurring between Chinese and Taiwanese when info on a series is scarce on its production origins.

Offline datora

  • Member
  • Posts: 1411
  • "Warning! Otaku logic powers in use!"
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2013, 07:34:07 am »
.
Actually, if we're going to distinguish between Taiwanese and Chinese, this is Taiwanese too :P
- http://bakabt.me/171379-skip-beat.html (Chinese)
[ I ,,,uh, knew that ..  ::) :-[ ]

I was thinking we could rename the keywords to just Chinese/Taiwanese/Korean (depending on whether we separate Taiwanese as well). But then that would cause an overlap with Manhwa/Manhua. We could do x Production, but I think that might be a bit long.

Wanted to think about this for a day or two.  I'm going to go with what you've said here.  I think that the added words 'Animation' and 'Production' don't really serve a purpose ... other than to take up extra room in the (limited) Keyword field.  The general application of the adjective form for any country of origin should be adequate to designate any animation NOT coming from Japan .. thereby eliminating any need to add a needless Keyword 'Japanese,' which would be the default assumption for everything else at BakBT.  So, Laotian, Filipino, etc. if those ever came into play with enough accepted content.

Manhwa/Manhua is already a well-known and used convention here, so just continue using it because it's a unique Keyword with specific meaning that abrogates, in context, any need for "Korean."

My original thought about 'China' 'Korea' etc. wasn't ever a perfect solution, and those keywords could be reserved, instead, for different context.  If a particular story is entirely or mostly set in another country (and there are enough torrents to justify it, whatever that magic number may be), then the country name as a keyword could be used to designate the setting.  So, a Manhua that takes place in Brazil could have the keyword Brazil, a manga or anime set in Germany is clearly Japanese in origin by default, but Keyword Germany to designate primary setting, etc.

And, again, such Keywords would only be applied for and generated once a minimum number of torrents are accepted to justify them.


I showed up here tonight because I was going to propose a new Keyword, but it turns out that Vintage already exists ... but is rather seriously under-used.

New offer just accepted gave me the thought:
 - http://bakabt.me/172226-sakura-namiki-the-rows-of-cherry-trees.html

But I know there are many more lacking that Keyword.

Guess what I'll ask here: What is the cut-off timeframe for something to be designated "Vintage?"  Personally, I'd probably consider just about anything prior to 1970, and a small number of 1970-ish titles might qualify due to Vintage style and being later works of of mangaka/ directors/ studios/ etc. whose primary era of content preceded ~1970.

So maybe something like Kanashimi no Belladonna might be eligible, on judgement call, due to it's prevalent style, even though it's 1973.  But something like Sen'ya Ichiya Monogatari might be much more clear-cut.

Or maybe baka Staff would prefer to use a different cutoff date, such as 1963 or 1957, for some reason or another.

I'll be happy to report a few of these once I get some feedback on how you'd like to apply Vintage.  I have a personal interest in collecting and studying old(er) anime/manga, so it would be great to see this Keyword employed more thoroughly.  My vote would be "pre-1970" as the baseline rule, with minor flexibility on a case-by-case basis.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 07:44:27 am by datora »
I win, once again, in my never-ending struggle against victory.

Offline ghiblike

  • Member
  • Posts: 77
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2013, 10:43:12 am »
Some clarification on the use of the 'Classic' keyword would also be helpful.

EDIT: Just noticed there is also an 'Old' keyword, which seems a bit too vague...
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:50:59 am by ghiblike »
Failing to conform

Offline datora

  • Member
  • Posts: 1411
  • "Warning! Otaku logic powers in use!"
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2013, 09:44:18 pm »
.
'Kay.  I've taken a little more look at it now, and a couple thoughts.

With several words to look at, it seems an issue of applying them appropriately to eras, and also to anime that is close to a particular era and closely follows its 'style' for the most part.

The Vintage Keyword is currently applied to two anime that probably should have it removed and replaced with something else:
 - http://bakabt.me/145547-call-me-tonight-dvd-to-y-rc.html (1986)
 - http://bakabt.me/130448-mahou-no-princess-minky-momo-yume-no-naka-no-rondo-the-magical-princess-gigi-u-s-eng-edit.html (1995)


The line between such "eras" is not going to be razor sharp, such as a specific year being a hard cutoff.

Possible examples for debate:

 - http://bakabt.me/155011-jungle-taitei-ila-kimba-the-white-lion-eng-dub.html (1965-1966)

I would argue that Kimba is Vintage, being quite primitive in a style more in line with 1960-ish and earlier.  Whereas:

 - http://bakabt.me/128960-speed-racer.html (1967-1968)

would probably be considered more of a Classic, in large part due to (slightly) more advanced animation and artwork for the timeframe.

So, against my own initial speculation in the previous post, Vintage might be better pushed back toward an early 1960s-ish and earlier cutoff (sort of pre-hippie/Flower Power revolution), and Classic might better be applied toward mid/late-1960s-ish with themes from that era of social change.

Classic might then apply up through the approximate end of the 1970s.

At this point I'd suggest taking the Keyword Old and possibly just using Old School and keeping it to the approximate 1980s/1990s timeframe.  And, specifically applying it to anime that still relied heavily on cell-drawn animation.  So, the original Ghost in the Shell movie (1995) would be pretty close to a high-water mark as, by 1998/2000-ish, quite the bulk of anime started relying much more heavily on digital production.

These are just some very  general approximates for consideration.  On a case-by-case basis, there will certainly be anime outside of these timeframes that would qualify for these Keywords, and some will certainly qualify for more than one.  Kimba could certainly be tagged both Vintage and Classic, for example.  Dirty Pair (especially the original) could be both Old School and Classic, where Dirty Pair Flash might just be considered Old School.

And, what to do about Star Blazers, which spans 1974 through 1980 and beyond?  Certainly a Classic:
 - http://bakabt.me/browse.php?q=star+blazers

So, candidates for Classic might have to have some element of popularity/pop culture to qualify.

Without getting too messy about it, I suggest that Vinatge, at least, applies to all early history anime/manga from the very origins up into, and probably through, the 1950s.  The other Keywords seem much less clear cut.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 09:46:18 pm by datora »
I win, once again, in my never-ending struggle against victory.

Online Al_Sleeper

  • Member
  • Posts: 8514
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2013, 10:09:41 pm »
It looks like your classification system is too subjective. Offer it on AniDB, where it can be worked out much more easily.

I have no idea if there are any Thai or Lao animations on here or anything else like that.
You forgot about North Korean animation :P.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtp-70zQME
However, judging by this example, it is closer to the Soviet and Chinese animation schools than to the anime.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 06:22:32 am by Al_Sleeper »


Offline SeventyX7

  • Member
  • Posts: 3212
[Request] Doujinshi keyword.
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2013, 09:12:15 pm »
Kam asked for this some time ago in the comments of one of my doujinshi uploads, and a mod said no to it.

I feel that since then there has been a lot more doujinshi uploaded and BBT would benefit from the keyword.  There have to be at least 50 doujinshi entries on BBT by now.

I'd like to add that the doujinshi keyword DOES have meaning.  Doujinshi is to manga what independent films are to movies and indie games are to video games.  People get to do unique things in doujinshi that could never be done in commercial manga and I'm certain it would be a keyword people could see a use in. 

Doujinshi is where innovation often happens, either in art style or in genre (the monster-girl genre that is exploding in popularity right now started in doujinshi, for example). 

Offline SeventyX7

  • Member
  • Posts: 3212
[Keyword Request] "Childhood Friends"
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2013, 09:50:40 pm »
"Childhood Friends" seems to be red'd out on the keyword list, can I request that it be added?

I've been putting it in my category list in the torrents but not in keywords because of this.  I think it's an important keyword for romance manga, especially hentai.

Offline Southrop

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 5249
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2013, 02:26:13 am »
Merged both threads into this one. You should use this for future keyword-related stuff too.

Kam asked for this some time ago in the comments of one of my doujinshi uploads, and a mod said no to it.
Added. It was not useful at the time but I think that's changed now.

I've been putting it in my category list in the torrents but not in keywords because of this.  I think it's an important keyword for romance manga, especially hentai.
Enabled.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
These are done btw.


Regarding East Asian stuff:
I'm inclined to just add "Chinese" and "Korean" keywords. imo, these should also be applied to Manhua and Manhwa torrents since someone searching for Chinese content would still want to find Manhua. At the moment, I don't think it's worth distinguishing between Chinese/Taiwanese as the amount of content from China/Taiwan is quite small anyway. If that changes in future we can then consider a Taiwanese keyword. Same for North/South Korean. Anyone have any other thoughts to weigh in on this? If not, I'm going to go ahead and create the keywords and tag the torrents that have already been mentioned earlier.


Regarding Old/Vintage/Classic:
I honestly don't know how best to go here. I'm not exactly a connoisseur of old content so I don't really know my way around the old stuff. But a better question to ask here is whether it is worth actually having 3 separate keywords that have similar meanings? If we have to create specific definitions for keywords, perhaps it's better not to use it and use a more general one?

Offline SeventyX7

  • Member
  • Posts: 3212
Re: *Report Keyword Errors Here*
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2013, 03:24:40 am »
Merged both threads into this one. You should use this for future keyword-related stuff too.

Can we perhaps change the name of this thread then?  I think it's come to encompass more than just keyword errors now.

Maybe "Keyword Discussion"?  Or maybe "Keyword Improvement Project" like the wiki one?

Offline Van.

  • Member
  • Posts: 448
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2013, 04:11:34 am »
I think it's better to change NAKABAYASHI May keyword to May'n.
Only a few people know her by the real name.

Also Yuuka Nanri should be changed to NANRI Yuuka.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:13:17 am by Van. »

Offline SeventyX7

  • Member
  • Posts: 3212
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2013, 04:15:50 am »
Is there a reason we capitalize the ENTIRE family name other than that MU and ANN do it?

I always thought it was kind of silly...

Offline Southrop

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 5249
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2013, 06:01:33 am »
I think it's better to change NAKABAYASHI May keyword to May'n.
Only a few people know her by the real name.

Also Yuuka Nanri should be changed to NANRI Yuuka.
These done.

Is there a reason we capitalize the ENTIRE family name other than that MU and ANN do it?

I always thought it was kind of silly...
It's not an uncommon practice. It makes it easier to tell which is the surname and which is the forename.

Offline Triltaison

  • Member
  • Posts: 677
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2013, 09:16:39 am »
Personally, I absolute love early animation and can't get enough of it. Thought I'd weigh in with my own thoughts on categorizing classic anime here, since datora had some good thoughts on the subject.

I must say that I don't really like the "Old" keyword. It doesn't really mean anything taken out of context and is relative to taste. Some people consider shows from three years ago old, and some consider those from 30 years ago to not be old. So I don't think it's a great term.

To me, "Vintage" implies any anime made prior to the mid-1960s that was produced in black-and-white. This also includes hand-tinted films like Song of Spring and any theatrical features which might have been in color prior to the debut of color anime on TV, like The Tale of the White Serpent and Toei's early stuff. Some series that might have started in black-and-white and switched to color (like Mahou Tsukai Sally), and I would still consider those "Vintage" because they were still made in the same way.

When Kimba ushered in the era of color in '65 for color TVs, the black and white series started to trickle off and a whole new era of animation began to dawn. I would consider "Classic" a good candidate for color series and movies made post-Kimba up to 1979.

Though I don't particularly care for the term as referring to the 1980s and 1990s (I usually use it for '60s anime or '40s Western animation), "Old School" could work for those decades okay. I would honestly prefer decade tags for the '80s, '90s, '00s, and '10s with just the tags Vintage and Classic to precede series made before the 1980s.

Any series that extends past a cutoff could either receive both tags, or just the tag for when it debuted.

Online Al_Sleeper

  • Member
  • Posts: 8514
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #56 on: July 01, 2013, 09:30:28 am »
Good luck in tagging Sazae-san if it ever gets on BakaBT :P...

Offline Van.

  • Member
  • Posts: 448
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2013, 05:50:58 pm »
Requesting HASHIMOTO Maiko keyword.
It can be added to Bubblegum Crisis Music Collection, Hurricane Live concert and Leina Stol Music Collection.

Offline Southrop

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 5249
Re: *Keywords Improvement Project*
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2013, 06:30:33 pm »
Requesting HASHIMOTO Maiko keyword.
It can be added to Bubblegum Crisis Music Collection, Hurricane Live concert and Leina Stol Music Collection.
Done

Though I don't particularly care for the term as referring to the 1980s and 1990s (I usually use it for '60s anime or '40s Western animation), "Old School" could work for those decades okay. I would honestly prefer decade tags for the '80s, '90s, '00s, and '10s with just the tags Vintage and Classic to precede series made before the 1980s.
Sounds worth considering, but as Al_Sleeper comments, that's probably not so representative for long running shows that span multiple decades. Still, we've had requests for the year of a show to be included in the title or keyword before, so could be worth considering.