Author Topic: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income  (Read 1860 times)

Offline Ixarku

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2016, 12:16:02 pm »
Are things really so expensive in the USA?

Depends on where you live, but generally yes.  People sometimes forget that the U.S. is large country and costs are not homogenized throughout the country.  Each state also has its own tax laws.  My boss, for example, was urging me a month or two ago to consider moving to Portland, Oregon.  I priced homes out there, and the cost there now is close to double what I paid for my home in Florida at the height of the housing market collapse.  Oregon doesn't have a sales tax (I think ours here varies from 6-8% depending on the county) but they have an income tax which is higher.  It would cost me dramatically more to live in Oregon instead of Florida without even considering the price of goods, and I'll wager that my company would not be willing to pay me more to offset any portion of the cost.  I don't spend that much money on consumer goods so taking an additional 10-15% of my gross income in other forms of taxes would be big setback to my plans.  Hence, I'm staying in Florida for now because there's no economic incentive for me to do anything else.
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Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2016, 12:40:40 pm »
10k US$ translates to about 450k PhP(pesos). That's about twice the national average (235k PhP). If you have that much income, you're considered upper class. The official minimum wage is about 10 US$ a day.

It's a bit depressing to think that you guys make more than many politicians or company managers here, and yet consider it a pittance.  :-| 

Are things really so expensive in the USA?
I'm not from America, but this applies to me just as much.

10USD a day as wages might sound like a lot to you, and therefore $8US an hour sounds like a phenomenal amount but you need to consider that where you live, $10US can buy a LOT of stuff, whereas $10US in the USA, would not even buy you a pair of shoes.


Remember, these are American prices, so for me that'd be $293AUD at the current (best) exchange rate - before taxes, import fees and international currency fees.
My wage per week (46 to 48 hours) is approximately $900AUD after taxes and everything else.
That means that if I were to buy those shoes, I need to use roughly one third of my weeks earnings to buy them, or approximately 16 hours of labour.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 12:50:47 pm by Krudda »

Offline Shiakou

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 02:07:58 pm »
10k US$ translates to about 450k PhP(pesos). That's about twice the national average (235k PhP). If you have that much income, you're considered upper class. The official minimum wage is about 10 US$ a day.

It's a bit depressing to think that you guys make more than many politicians or company managers here, and yet consider it a pittance.  :-| 

Are things really so expensive in the USA?
I'm not from America, but this applies to me just as much.

10USD a day as wages might sound like a lot to you, and therefore $8US an hour sounds like a phenomenal amount but you need to consider that where you live, $10US can buy a LOT of stuff, whereas $10US in the USA, would not even buy you a pair of shoes.


Remember, these are American prices, so for me that'd be $293AUD at the current (best) exchange rate - before taxes, import fees and international currency fees.
My wage per week (46 to 48 hours) is approximately $900AUD after taxes and everything else.
That means that if I were to buy those shoes, I need to use roughly one third of my weeks earnings to buy them, or approximately 16 hours of labour.



In my case, it's trying to buy legit games on Steam or GoG. I've pirated every game I have, but I've been trying to slowly own legit copies as well through sales, simply because I personally dislike having to steal all my entertainment.

Offline Saras

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 03:13:44 pm »
10k a year is not enough to get by in many cities. It's a subsidy at best and from what I've read, places that are exploring this idea consider it a replacement for basic welfare. Automation and AI is great but if we allow them to replace us to such an extent that we need to subsidise the lives of the majority of our population, consumer society will collapse. You don't need robots when that happens...

Cities. That's for cities. Now assume a village or basically any place that doesn't have a housing bubble.

Rent a room in a place that isn't san francisco(I've just googled, you can get a room in Wyoming near a campus for 200/mo), minimal to no luxuries, no eating out and honestly I'd be surprised if you exceeded 10k.

Is this the "good life"? No. But it's a life. It also assumes 0 income.


10k US$ translates to about 450k PhP(pesos). That's about twice the national average (235k PhP). If you have that much income, you're considered upper class. The official minimum wage is about 10 US$ a day.

It's a bit depressing to think that you guys make more than many politicians or company managers here, and yet consider it a pittance.  :-| 

Are things really so expensive in the USA?
I'm not from America, but this applies to me just as much.

10USD a day as wages might sound like a lot to you, and therefore $8US an hour sounds like a phenomenal amount but you need to consider that where you live, $10US can buy a LOT of stuff, whereas $10US in the USA, would not even buy you a pair of shoes.


Remember, these are American prices, so for me that'd be $293AUD at the current (best) exchange rate - before taxes, import fees and international currency fees.
My wage per week (46 to 48 hours) is approximately $900AUD after taxes and everything else.
That means that if I were to buy those shoes, I need to use roughly one third of my weeks earnings to buy them, or approximately 16 hours of labour.

You significantly overestimate how flexible some prices are around the world. If it's not a service, but a good, it will cost the same. Any piece of technology costs basically the same, any piece of raw material too. Nike shoes cost the same in mexico as they do here on in the US. You can also buy 10$ shoes in the states as well. Actually, most of that shit IS cheaper in the us due to how taxation works there.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 03:29:11 pm by Saras »

Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 03:31:03 am »
Most concepts I have seen applied to the basic income is that it isn't just for living off that wage rather a income you could supplement with other jobs to make a decent living wage. This means everyone in the country would receive it (not just those making under 'x' amount of money) and all income after the basic income is taxed.

For example many of the areas where it is unlikely for computers/automation to completely take over is the service industry. As mentioned you could reduce hours but if there is no financial incentive for individuals as why would they. We have this issue with the local steel plant, they could easily hire and train more trades people however some individuals would have to take a cut in hours and overtime (mainly overtime) which they don't want to do as they value the money more than others working.

Part of the solution to this cut is to add in the basic income which is guaranteed, which when supplemented by your part-time odd jobs becomes a decent liveable income.

The problem with this idea is our current system is based on the principle of you do work and you get rewarded. The problem is as technology advances the amount of work available decreases (think about how many jobs are public sector now over private sector, and compare that with historical numbers, the reality is we create jobs with our governments bureaucracy because otherwise we likely would have a revolt on hand due to lack of jobs). As seen with the Industrial revolution and the Luddites, it can destroy people (mass suicides amongst skilled craftsmen in the late 19th century, due to being put out of a job). This means we might have to re-envision what qualifies as work, and things that were once seen as hobbies (such as book writing, or hobby woodworking, or gardening) might be considered work.

If technology continues to advance at the rate it is going, I can see the need to re-envision how we view society. Capitalism might have to be completely rejected (realistically globally what we have isn't capitalism, it is actually much more of a monopoly system at the moment, capitalism actually being SMALL business competing against each over to drive down prices, well instead we have large business that buy up any competition and fix prices) and a new economic model adopted.

Personally I am much more in the modern luddite camp and saying we should reject most technology and revert back to a much more manual labour based system (mostly handmade/machined items, manual accounting, etc.) as I feel it provides the most satisfaction for the amount of work done (well still keeping people employed). To me things like sitting at a computer typing out forms all day is not satisfying and I would rather make something with my hands which I can personally take pride in and see than some electronic work that realistically is never truly done (such are the miracles of bureaucracy).

I hope my ramblings on this topic have maybe put a bit of a different light on it, I am not 100% sure what I was getting at with it other than we will likely need a lot of change in our viewpoints to adopt to the future world.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 04:17:12 pm »
Cities. That's for cities. Now assume a village or basically any place that doesn't have a housing bubble.

Rent a room in a place that isn't san francisco(I've just googled, you can get a room in Wyoming near a campus for 200/mo), minimal to no luxuries, no eating out and honestly I'd be surprised if you exceeded 10k.

Is this the "good life"? No. But it's a life. It also assumes 0 income.

The problem with this is, you'd have to live in Wyoming.  There are reasons why some states in the U.S. are sparsely populated.  It's economy is dedicated to tourism, agriculture, and energy extraction, so I imagine it would be difficult finding work outside of these sectors.  Wyoming has a population less than 600k, and it has only 2 towns / cities with a population greater than 50,000.  If you like national parks and hate being around people, it's probably the state to live in.
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Offline Saras

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 05:26:39 pm »
Cities. That's for cities. Now assume a village or basically any place that doesn't have a housing bubble.

Rent a room in a place that isn't san francisco(I've just googled, you can get a room in Wyoming near a campus for 200/mo), minimal to no luxuries, no eating out and honestly I'd be surprised if you exceeded 10k.

Is this the "good life"? No. But it's a life. It also assumes 0 income.

The problem with this is, you'd have to live in Wyoming.  There are reasons why some states in the U.S. are sparsely populated.  It's economy is dedicated to tourism, agriculture, and energy extraction, so I imagine it would be difficult finding work outside of these sectors.  Wyoming has a population less than 600k, and it has only 2 towns / cities with a population greater than 50,000.  If you like national parks and hate being around people, it's probably the state to live in.

Yes. But honestly speaking, giving enough welfare to where one could potentially rent a place and live in San Fran or Manhattan would be nuts in an entirely other dimension. An  unsupported basic income realistically should only allow for life in the lowest of economic zones to have incentive whatsoever for people to have a job.

Also basic income works as a force that equalises cities and rural areas. Given basic income+supplementary, you can live essentially anywhere. Given an increase in automation, that becomes even more true. Eliminating the need for drivers basically allows you to create stuff essentially anywhere, because the price for transporting goods becomes effectively nil, like literal cents.

It also works as a way to get rid of "undesirable" elements from the cities, as they technically have the means to survive, just not there. Which may end up leaving way to a whole new era of dystopian media  :whistle:

Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 09:14:14 pm »
As things are automated, the cost of producing and delivering that item should go down, which should drop the sale value, therefore the cost of living should lower and your need for a lot of money would disappear.

But, I still think 10k is never going to be enough. Just look at my rent example a few posts ago. My rent exceeds that 10k by over 150%.

Offline Saras

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 10:51:16 pm »
As things are automated, the cost of producing and delivering that item should go down, which should drop the sale value, therefore the cost of living should lower and your need for a lot of money would disappear.

But, I still think 10k is never going to be enough. Just look at my rent example a few posts ago. My rent exceeds that 10k by over 150%.

"An  unsupported basic income realistically should only allow for life in the lowest of economic zones to have incentive whatsoever for people to have a job."

Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 11:00:50 pm »
"An  unsupported basic income realistically should only allow for life in the lowest of economic zones to have incentive whatsoever for people to have a job."

Minimum cost of living per year is an approximate $20,000 (in Australia)
https://www.studyinaustralia.gov.au/global/live-in-australia/living-costs

10k will not be enough. Sure, you can get a job to supplement the difference except, its all automated. There are no available positions. Too bad then.

Offline Saras

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 11:18:52 pm »
"An  unsupported basic income realistically should only allow for life in the lowest of economic zones to have incentive whatsoever for people to have a job."

Minimum cost of living per year is an approximate $20,000 (in Australia)
https://www.studyinaustralia.gov.au/global/live-in-australia/living-costs

10k will not be enough. Sure, you can get a job to supplement the difference except, its all automated. There are no available positions. Too bad then.

"Cities. That's for cities. Now assume a village or basically any place that doesn't have a housing bubble.

Rent a room in a place that isn't san francisco(I've just googled, you can get a room in Wyoming near a campus for 200/mo), minimal to no luxuries, no eating out and honestly I'd be surprised if you exceeded 10k.

Is this the "good life"? No. But it's a life. It also assumes 0 income."

Also, no. It's not "intended" to be the entirety of your income. It's intended to make not working 40+ hours a week liveable, there's a difference. I was just saying that if you live like an acetic monk, you technically can live off it alone.

If even a majority of the people are unemployable, do you honestly think that we'd still have capitalism?

Also, 10k USD isn't 10k kangaroo dollars.

Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 11:24:36 pm »
I'm a little sour at the moment. My judgements may be clouded.

Quote
Also, 10k USD isn't 10k kangaroo dollars.
You are correct. It is more like 13006 Kangaroo dollars.

Offline surdumil

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 12:26:10 am »
Oh, that's interesting.
So 1 Kangaroo Dollar is equal to 1 Loonie.
We're at parity!

Offline Saras

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 01:08:04 am »
I've also seen the term dollaridoo in reddit a while ago. I might like that one more than kangaroo dollars

Offline Ixarku

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 02:47:09 am »
dollaridoo

If I ever actually visit Australia, I swear to god I'm going to use this term there.
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Offline halfelite

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 04:48:13 am »
I hate to say it but the only way for the world to Recover and get on even ground in terms of the cost of goods and getting paid is for a great depression to hit globally. Taking what I have seen in the US three problems have hit the job sector the most. First was the EPA. Lets impose strict penalties on factories that pollute so every factory in the US closed and moved to Mexico or China. Lost 100,000's jobs. Second was that the federal GOV and state GOV assumes every business operates with a huge income. Most small business making under 20 million a year come out with a profit at the end of the year in a 6 figure number. There are so many taxes and fees that go into running a business it makes owners start to squeeze staff to make up for the loss. The 3rd is the rate on inflation. Sure the cost of goods in the USA can be high but the pay was also high but soon enough again companies get squeezed so much the ship business over sees to make up for the loss.

Offline Natusake

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2016, 12:17:24 pm »
I've heard the argument that machines will replace our jobs time and time again, but I've never actually heard a compelling case for it.

There's a reason that everyone isn't living in poverty-level subsistence farming. That's because machines "stole" those jobs and gave us the opportunity to do other things. Not only do we get more food, but with the same amount of work we can also mass produce a ton of additional goods. This is always how it has been. If machines are used in one job, it just opens the opportunity for people to work other jobs. There is never a "set" amount of jobs. It grows and shrinks according to the level of demand of various goods.

Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2016, 02:08:23 pm »
There's only so many jobs people can do before nobody needs anything done by a human... Thats what was being discussed here.

Lets assume robots/automated machines soon take over all cashier jobs (a very likely probability)
What do those people do now? Sell candy? Machines do that.
Make the candy? Machines do that.
Deliver the candy? Machines do that. Unpack the candy and stack it on the shelves? Machines will do that / partially already do.
Clean spillages in the isles? Uh, robotic cleaning tools do that.

A new line of work then? Repair the robots? Sorry, 200 million other humans already do this job, you're not needed.

Offline Natusake

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2016, 03:43:19 am »
It's not as simple as that. Even if machines can literally do everything humans can do (a dubious proposition), you overlook the comparative cost. Machines can only replace human labour if the cost of machinery is less than the cost of human labour. But there's nothing a priori that proves it will be one way or the other. Sometimes machines cost less than labour, and other times labour costs less than machines. Even if machines can do everything a human can, there always must be a human to make the machine. Machines only exist to achieve human purposes, so logically the human must always be anterior to the machine. Even if you make a machine that makes machines, someone had to make that machine, and so on.

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Sorry, 200 million other humans already do this job, you're not needed.

Now you're just assuming conditions where your thesis is correct to prove your thesis. If someone was just replaced by a machine then it means the demand for machines, what builds a machine, what repairs a machine, and so on, has increased, which means that the demand for labour opportunities in those areas must increase as well. Machines and the labour to build/repair them are complementary goods. Like I said, the number of jobs is never static. God has never decreed from heaven that there will only be such and such jobs for people to do. As long as people have unfulfilled desires there will be new things to do that have yet been unmechanized. The question about whether such desires are limited is outside the scope of whether or not machines right now actually displace jobs in the long run.

Offline Krudda

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Re: As Our Jobs Are Automated, Some Say We'll Need A Guaranteed Basic Income
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2016, 04:08:03 am »
This is silly.
Someone builds a machine that builds other machines. Congratulations buddy, you just invented yourself out of a job

It won't be overnight, but the progress is outpacing current human adaptation..