Author Topic: US Presidential Debate Thread  (Read 1612 times)

Offline metro.

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2016, 04:52:30 am »
I wish I could talk about Trump's policies, but he doesn't have a clear platform.

But hey, here's a super cut of him lying at the debate.

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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2016, 05:37:36 am »
I wish I could talk about Trump's policies, but he doesn't have a clear platform.

But hey, here's a super cut of him lying at the debate.

It honestly doesn't matter much anymore, Trump and the GOP are basically now this guy.

The third debate is just going to be another depressing notch on this weeks-long death march we've found ourselves as spectators on. 63 Republican governors, senators and representatives have denounced their party's Presidential nominee, the Speaker of the House has retracted all political support for his party's candidate and was subsequently vociferously insulted on Twitter by him, these are not things which can be put into context since the Victorian period.

Though the truly interesting thing to ponder is what Twitter would've been like during the literal American Civil War. I'd have totally been on #TEAMLINCOLN.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 03:26:10 pm by Nikkoru »
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Offline surdumil

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2016, 07:56:46 am »
So, I guess this marks a difference between the Parliamentary System and the American system.
In Canada, we don't vote for Prime Minister.  We vote for Members of Parliament who pick the Prime Minister.

Do I understand this correctly then, that the Republicans are kind of conceding the Presidential race by withdrawing support for Trump in hopes of winning their own ridings by distancing themselves from him?  This kind of makes sense to me, but maybe my understanding is lacking.

Offline Ixarku

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2016, 12:07:14 pm »
So, I guess this marks a difference between the Parliamentary System and the American system.
In Canada, we don't vote for Prime Minister.  We vote for Members of Parliament who pick the Prime Minister.

Do I understand this correctly then, that the Republicans are kind of conceding the Presidential race by withdrawing support for Trump in hopes of winning their own ridings by distancing themselves from him?  This kind of makes sense to me, but maybe my understanding is lacking.

That's essentially it.  No one wants to be tied to a sinking ship.  Conversely, Trump's rise has caught an awful lot of people (and a lot of awful people) off guard.  So on the off-chance that he actually does win, it's going to be fairly embarrassing for a lot of establishment Republicans if they don't support him.  Trump's base is large and powerful enough to sink other candidacies.  Hence, it's sort of a catch-22.  Fail to support Trump, and alienate the base, and possibly lose Congress to the Democrats.  Support Trump, and alienate the moderates, and possibly lose Congress to the Democrats.  The Republican party is in damage control mode to mitigate these possibilities.

Personally, I'm thrilled to see Republican tactics of fear-mongering and pandering to the base coming back to bite the party in the ass.  Trump essentially stepped in and hijacked the worst aspects of the Republican message and made it all about him, and in doing so, he stirred up a monster sleeping among the electorate.  Now that monster is out of its handlers' control.
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2016, 12:28:59 pm »
Essentially it's because there are a lot of close races for the Senate and the House and if a politician says they support Trump (and his recently leaked comments) that may be just enough to tip the scales in favor of their competition. Basically, they're afraid of losing the Senate and the House in close races and want their people to cover their own asses rather than try to cover someone that may or may not become President, which is looking increasingly unlikely of happening at this point anyways.

Offline surdumil

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2016, 01:51:01 pm »
Thanks for helping me to understand.
I hope you all fare well regardless of how this all works out in November.

Offline Tanis

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2016, 05:30:16 pm »
I love how even non-Americans are realizing what a clusterfuck this is...


    When a man this ignorant & easy to manipulate gets within sniffing distance of the nuclear codes, it's everyone's business. #RestOfTheWorld https://t.co/yHBIIuhYEN
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2016, 06:18:36 pm »
That's essentially it.  No one wants to be tied to a sinking ship.  Conversely, Trump's rise has caught an awful lot of people (and a lot of awful people) off guard.  So on the off-chance that he actually does win, it's going to be fairly embarrassing for a lot of establishment Republicans if they don't support him.

As of Fivethirtyeight's Nowcast, that chance is 9.2% and has been steadily falling from the beginning of this week. This isn't a horse race so much this

Plus, as Trump has noted several times, the Democrats, the Free Masons, the Illuminati, and the Rand Corporation have long since rigged this election against him. So really this whole election has been a farce and expect riots on the streets.

Trump's base is large and powerful enough to sink other candidacies.  Hence, it's sort of a catch-22.  Fail to support Trump, and alienate the base, and possibly lose Congress to the Democrats.  Support Trump, and alienate the moderates, and possibly lose Congress to the Democrats.  The Republican party is in damage control mode to mitigate these possibilities.

I wonder if Trump supporters really would show up come election day and simply tick off Trump's name and leave the rest of the ticket blank just as a Fuck You!!! to teh Evul Establishment. I'm inclined to think no, but that's the reasonable human side of me.

Conversely, the non-Trumpicans/never-Trump Rs, do they really show up just to vote down-ticket for their Party?

This hasn't happened before, not like this at least.

Personally, I'm thrilled to see Republican tactics of fear-mongering and pandering to the base coming back to bite the party in the ass.  Trump essentially stepped in and hijacked the worst aspects of the Republican message and made it all about him, and in doing so, he stirred up a monster sleeping among the electorate.  Now that monster is out of its handlers' control.

What's amusing to me is that Trump really is going down just as I sarcastically claimed he would - like a Banana Republic dictator whose been ousted.

Well, he's now claiming he's had a come-to-Jesus moment, because he doesn't respect his supporters in the least.
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2016, 06:56:23 pm »
I wonder if Trump supporters really would show up come election day and simply tick off Trump's name and leave the rest of the ticket blank just as a Fuck You!!! to teh Evul Establishment. I'm inclined to think no, but that's the reasonable human side of me.
Well I hope they do because then Dems would win literally all the state elections and state questions. It won't happen though. A blank vote isn't counted as a vote against the other choices.

Though, I don't think he's entirely just being paranoid about thinking the election might be rigged so he loses. After all, they did it to Bernie already.

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2016, 07:23:40 pm »
Though, I don't think he's entirely just being paranoid about thinking the election might be rigged so he loses. After all, they did it to Bernie already.

Not really one to take USA Politics NOW seriously, given that I spent ten minutes actually looking at the website which is simply full of anti-Democrat demagoguery.
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2016, 12:51:42 am »
Though, I don't think he's entirely just being paranoid about thinking the election might be rigged so he loses. After all, they did it to Bernie already.

I'm always skeptical of conspiracies on a grand scale.  The odds against the Presidential election in the U.S. being rigged in any sort of meaningful fashion are too big.  In all honesty, Trump has done far more to sabotage his own chances than any Democrat could hope to achieve.  The only reason the race is even as close as it is is because of how eminently unlikable Clinton is to so many people.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2016, 02:14:05 am »
Though, I don't think he's entirely just being paranoid about thinking the election might be rigged so he loses. After all, they did it to Bernie already.

I'm always skeptical of conspiracies on a grand scale.  The odds against the Presidential election in the U.S. being rigged in any sort of meaningful fashion are too big.  In all honesty, Trump has done far more to sabotage his own chances than any Democrat could hope to achieve.  The only reason the race is even as close as it is is because of how eminently unlikable Clinton is to so many people.

Yeah~ but I think Trump as the Republican candidate simply has a rock-bottom floor to his support which really can't fall apart regardless. There's multi-generational socio-cultural inertia behind both parties, and even if Clinton had Obama's favourabilities and Trump just decided to whip his junk out at the next debate and yell "I likes'em young" there's just no getting past the fact that he'd still win the really red states and mount up around 35% of the popular vote.I mean the only reason we can't just say she's won at this point is because polls aren't technically a census.

As to rigging the election, as you say - that's not within her power to do - she'd need to sway an awful lot of government employees at once and get away without anyone noticing. You'd need the collusion of hundreds of electors - most of which I believe are not presently Democrats - or simply bet on a few and hope they're somehow significant to the result, without coming apart during the legal challenge that would follow. Voter fraud that Trump suggests is going to happen is very, very, very rare relatively speaking and basically insignificant to Federal elections based on objective research done on the subject, and again would have to survive legal actions were it being employed as ubiquitous as it need be. Hacking - which is possible technically - becomes untenable as an election strategy because there are actually a variety of models built by numerous companies maintained across various districts that utilize different coding and aren't centralized in some network for easy simultaneous manipulation, thus again requiring you to guess where they'd be effective and manually break into them and not get caught afterwards.

Trump also claimed the previous election was rigged against Romney too essentially because he's an awful human being who says shit which can't be proven and cares not a whit about the perceived integrity of the American Democracy if it soothes his ego, until of course he stopped liking Romney and then it was totes his fault. His call for Revolution in the face of inevitable political defeat is something Trump's fringe has apparently taken to heart.
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Offline Ixarku

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2016, 02:53:51 am »
His call for Revolution in the face of inevitable political defeat is something Trump's fringe has apparently taken to heart.

Weirdly, I think riots are more likely if Trump wins than if he actually loses.  My gut feeling is that my fellow liberals and left-leaning moderates hate Trump at least as much if not more than Trump's supporters hate Clinton.

Of course, I have nothing factual to base this on.  I just can't remember the last time racist white people and/or rednecks have done any rioting.
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2016, 03:31:02 am »
His call for Revolution in the face of inevitable political defeat is something Trump's fringe has apparently taken to heart.

Weirdly, I think riots are more likely if Trump wins than if he actually loses.  My gut feeling is that my fellow liberals and left-leaning moderates hate Trump at least as much if not more than Trump's supporters hate Clinton.

Of course, I have nothing factual to base this on.  I just can't remember the last time racist white people and/or rednecks have done any rioting.

Possible - actually I would say probable if the election were today because Clinton winning is such an overwhelming expectation at this point that a sudden loss would be seen as deeply upsetting while Trump's basically been lucky to be tied with her for the last half year or so -  but at least it wouldn't be at the glib, half-brained urging of Clinton.

Though I agree with you, the revolutionary rhetoric is mostly sanctimonious bluster. Much of his support are middle-class white men of a certain age and they're not going to take up arms against the Government and get their dainty hands dirty, it's just something fringey people need to say to maintain their fringe-cred 'round the fringihood.
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2016, 02:06:40 pm »
As to rigging the election, as you say - that's not within her power to do - she'd need to sway an awful lot of government employees at once and get away without anyone noticing. You'd need the collusion of hundreds of electors - most of which I believe are not presently Democrats - or simply bet on a few and hope they're somehow significant to the result, without coming apart during the legal challenge that would follow. Voter fraud that Trump suggests is going to happen is very, very, very rare relatively speaking and basically insignificant to Federal elections based on objective research done on the subject, and again would have to survive legal actions were it being employed as ubiquitous as it need be. Hacking - which is possible technically - becomes untenable as an election strategy because there are actually a variety of models built by numerous companies maintained across various districts that utilize different coding and aren't centralized in some network for easy simultaneous manipulation, thus again requiring you to guess where they'd be effective and manually break into them and not get caught afterwards.
You.... really don't know much about the US election system, do you?

Google "bernie sanders election fraud" - there was even WikiLeaks email dump confirming the DNC conspired with the Clinton camp. She's a establishment candidate. She has the establishment politicians along with a ton of supporters willing to commit fraud for her at every level of the process. It is most definitely within her power to do.

Offline Nikkoru

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2016, 03:52:02 pm »
As to rigging the election, as you say - that's not within her power to do - she'd need to sway an awful lot of government employees at once and get away without anyone noticing. You'd need the collusion of hundreds of electors - most of which I believe are not presently Democrats - or simply bet on a few and hope they're somehow significant to the result, without coming apart during the legal challenge that would follow. Voter fraud that Trump suggests is going to happen is very, very, very rare relatively speaking and basically insignificant to Federal elections based on objective research done on the subject, and again would have to survive legal actions were it being employed as ubiquitous as it need be. Hacking - which is possible technically - becomes untenable as an election strategy because there are actually a variety of models built by numerous companies maintained across various districts that utilize different coding and aren't centralized in some network for easy simultaneous manipulation, thus again requiring you to guess where they'd be effective and manually break into them and not get caught afterwards.
You.... really don't know much about the US election system, do you?

Well, it's a paraphrased summation from the Washington Post... so, take it up with them, I guess?

Google "bernie sanders election fraud" - there was even WikiLeaks email dump confirming the DNC conspired with the Clinton camp.

The DNC had no control over the primaries, they're run by the State Government. The only exception would be the caucuses which Sanders actually dominated. Documents released by Wikileaks do undoubtedly express a degree of collusion between the DNC and the Clinton camp against Sanders, but none of the leaked emails and other documents show the DNC significantly influencing the results of the nomination.

She's a establishment candidate. She has the establishment politicians along with a ton of supporters willing to commit fraud for her at every level of the process. It is most definitely within her power to do.

Cool beans.
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Offline Tiffanys

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2016, 03:55:17 pm »
I don't have the energy to argue with you. Someone else take the wheel.

Offline halfelite

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2016, 06:56:04 pm »
Weirdly, I think riots are more likely if Trump wins than if he actually loses.  My gut feeling is that my fellow liberals and left-leaning moderates hate Trump at least as much if not more than Trump's supporters hate Clinton.

Of course, I have nothing factual to base this on.  I just can't remember the last time racist white people and/or rednecks have done any rioting.

I think you are correct. But not because of redneck/racist but more because the liberals are mostly the younger generation that assume everything should be handed to them and riot if they dont get it. Surprisingly if you look at any independent study over racism and party association with white voters the numbers are a lot closer then one would think. I know I was shocked when I looked some of them up. I am Republican and I know we have some deep roots in the south that are racists. The only big difference in the numbers is most left leaning think you can motivate the minority communities to do better and the right side think its a lost cause. But most numbers I have seen puts them within a couple percent with the right having the slightly higher number.


Offline surdumil

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2016, 08:06:43 pm »
I read through some of Sun Tzu's quotes from "The Art of War" and found some interesting things regarding the U.S. Election.
Trump's tactics are mostly the opposite of those suggested by the quotes.

Offline Tiffanys

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Re: US Presidential Debate Thread
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2016, 08:33:07 pm »
I read through some of Sun Tzu's quotes from "The Art of War" and found some interesting things regarding the U.S. Election.
Trump's tactics are mostly the opposite of those suggested by the quotes.
Look up the works of Joseph Goebbels instead, in regards to how to run a campaign. I'm not exaggerating, or just saying "oh look this guy was a Nazi, Trump is Hitler." I'm being very serious. Just read some of his quotes. You can get into it more if you really want to, but the way Trump is running his campaign is strikingly similar.

"There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, and this will always be "the man in the street." Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology."

"Propaganda must facilitate the displacement of aggression by specifying the targets for hatred."

"...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine. Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and repetitious."

"The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over."

"It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise." (something tells me Trump took that one to heart in every aspect of his life)

"We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of democracy, with its own weapons. If democracy is so stupid as to give us free tickets and salaries for this bear's work, that is its affair. We do not come as friends, nor even as neutrals. We come as enemies. As the wolf bursts into the flock, so we come."

"Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its roots in the street."

"The masses need something that will give them a thrill of horror."

"A media system wants ostensible diversity that conceals an actual uniformity"

"If you tell a lie, tell a big one."

"If we have power, we'll never give it up again unless we're carried out of our offices as corpses"

"One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."

Or, well, here's a bit less randomized in regards to his thoughts on propaganda.

But it's not just Goebbels. There's striking similarities to Hitler as well. People that say that really aren't just saying that for the sake of calling him Hitler, like we often do anyone we don't like these days. Have a look: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/expert-on-nazism-explains-the-shocking-similarities-between-trump-and-hitlers-propaganda-tactics/

I am not afraid of Trump nearly as much as I am of the next that comes along far more clever than Trump that there isn't any obvious thing we can point to as to say that person is unfit or terrible. Because that person, that is the person to be afraid of. The United States could see the rise of a dictator far worse than Hitler. Our political climate is right for it right now. It's something we should be vary wary of.