Author Topic: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]  (Read 1415 times)

Offline blackhole

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2017, 10:23:26 pm »
Having no knowledge of what it actually says on the leaflet is actually a pretty big information problem here.

If it says, "evacuate the city, there will be combat in the area" that's a bit different than "Evacuate, we will obliterate the city".

I don't get why they're making such a huge thing out of fighting in towns though. It's obvious that the city in question has been a battlefield before so this can't be the first time.  :unsure:
International Warfare Regulations and Laws prohibit military combat in populated areas apparently in this world, and ours as well, not like anyone gives a fuck about this, however if you want to look good in the books so no one can say you are indiscriminately murdering people, you issue an evacuation notice, anyone remaining while knowing about this is staying on their own volition and can't take any side accountable for any damages or deaths among civilian population.

As stated in the later scenes, it's a loophole that is being exploited by the German Empire since Tanya joined the military and proposed the document.

Keep in mind they were invaded by that country, then they "conquered" that country (or area at least) and now there have been rebellions with the backing of the republic, so it means anyone staying there, on the international law, after announcing evacuation, is considered a combatant, and likely a traitor by collaborating with the republic guys.

In every books while this is practically an immoral act, it is perfectly legal to slaughter anyone remaining after the issue for evacuation had been made.

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2017, 11:35:44 pm »
Not relevant to my point at all.

What I meant that when we first see the town, it's got obvious battle marks all around, including buildings hit by artillery and such so it's obvious it's seen battle before. If it has been fought in before, they've fought in cities before so why are they making this time such a big deal?

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Offline Tanis

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2017, 12:17:21 am »
Maybe because they're SPECIALLY targeting civilians are the guises of 'enemy combatants'.

In other times there's probably a 'we'll only hit military targets with a city' (like when Tanya blew up that munitions plant after declaring they were going to attack it), while they give the civilians plenty of time.
-Maybe, say, 24 hours for all civilians to get the fuck out of town.

This time they not only attacked the WHOLE city, the declared ANYONE (even children) who stayed as acceptable targets due to their  'enemy combatant' status.


It's a bit how the US of Aye keeps 'terrorists' in jail, tortures them, and commit war crimes but get away with it based on technicalities of 'enemy combatant' status and being 'offshore'.

Offline Saras

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2017, 07:24:27 am »
Maybe because they're SPECIALLY targeting civilians are the guises of 'enemy combatants'.

In other times there's probably a 'we'll only hit military targets with a city' (like when Tanya blew up that munitions plant after declaring they were going to attack it), while they give the civilians plenty of time.
-Maybe, say, 24 hours for all civilians to get the fuck out of town.

This time they not only attacked the WHOLE city, the declared ANYONE (even children) who stayed as acceptable targets due to their  'enemy combatant' status.


It's a bit how the US of Aye keeps 'terrorists' in jail, tortures them, and commit war crimes but get away with it based on technicalities of 'enemy combatant' status and being 'offshore'.

This. It is the fact that the target is now indiscriminate.

Under modern military practices this is completely understandable and is known as total war. However, their world just came out of the era of the 19th centuries "Gentleman's wars".

Soldiers went around in flashy colours, stood in formation one before another, and took turns shooting. That is a bit of a shock to the status quo.

Offline blackhole

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2017, 10:59:43 am »
Not relevant to my point at all.

What I meant that when we first see the town, it's got obvious battle marks all around, including buildings hit by artillery and such so it's obvious it's seen battle before. If it has been fought in before, they've fought in cities before so why are they making this time such a big deal?
That's because the rebels had been given armaments from the Republic, and the Republic also gave them mages who as we know use artillery spells.
Also the area have been under attack earlier, you don't expect a nation to take over a city just by entering it?
It's not Putins 2014, they are at war there, it's obvious tehre would be blast marks on buildings and zones.

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2017, 12:00:07 pm »
@Tanis: They do distribute the evacuation leaflets though so they're not targeting civilians(unless you count partisans as civilians) specially. They're targeting everyone left in the city after the evacuation order has been given, with a priority on the enemy soldiers(mages.)
But of course they know people don't leave town just because someone tells them they're going to level it to the ground and expect a lot more collateral civilians than otherwise. But I digress, this is not what my point is.

So I repeat, why are they making such a bid deal out of fighting in a city?
We can clearly see marks of battle, including artillery in the town, implicating it's already been fought through. So how can this possibly be the first time? At the end of the episode there's the scene about "how to legalize combat in cities" and from the way they talk this seems like the first time it's been used. So did they just walk through the city while taking some artillery fire from the republicans the first time or something?
Now, it might be that CR subs are just shit and the episode is full of translation errors ofc but really? That seems like a pretty hard error to make.

@Saras:
That is not quite correct, war has always been total where the armies were present. They'd rape pillage and loot as they went along. What made WW2 total was that the large scale terrorism directed at civilians everywhere, not just the where the armies were, first by the British Bomber Command and the German Luftwaffe and then later on by everyone included but especially by the western allies due to their superiority in the air(and idiotic doctrines.)

Not relevant to my point at all.

What I meant that when we first see the town, it's got obvious battle marks all around, including buildings hit by artillery and such so it's obvious it's seen battle before. If it has been fought in before, they've fought in cities before so why are they making this time such a big deal?
That's because the rebels had been given armaments from the Republic, and the Republic also gave them mages who as we know use artillery spells.
So it's your theory that they didn't actually fight in the city before and all the damage is from the republican uprising? In a couple of hours? Possible but unlikely, I don't buy it.

Quote
Also the area have been under attack earlier, you don't expect a nation to take over a city just by entering it?
It's not Putins 2014, they are at war there, it's obvious tehre would be blast marks on buildings and zones.
What is this I don't even...

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Offline blackhole

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2017, 01:41:05 pm »
Putin's annexation of Kremlin in 2014 IIRC.
He sent soldiers in there after Urkaine got it's freedom, took over the area with propaganda and faked referendum, not a single shot fired.

Offline Saras

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2017, 02:10:10 pm »
@Saras:
That is not quite correct, war has always been total where the armies were present. They'd rape pillage and loot as they went along. What made WW2 total was that the large scale terrorism directed at civilians everywhere, not just the where the armies were, first by the British Bomber Command and the German Luftwaffe and then later on by everyone included but especially by the western allies due to their superiority in the air(and idiotic doctrines.)

Ultimately and in practice, yes. However, from the point of the strategy employed by the nobility, was much more "playing the game fairly". One of the defining aspects of WWI was that it brought the end to that.

It is also a reoccurring point throughout the series that war "as they knew it" had changed. And that countries are in various states of adapting to that.

Full on "official" warfare in a town was very rare in the era post the industrial revolution and before WWI. The thing of value for the victor was the machinery in factories and technology. If you just shelled an area you'd lose the entire thing you were fighting for in the first place. That's why battles were usually fought in  plains.

Honestly, the prior damage to the town was probably due to the skirmishes between partisans and the local garrison + embellishment from the animators.

Offline blackhole

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2017, 03:04:01 pm »
It's actually amusing how War as we know it, changed since then. back then it was also meant to show some sort of Prestige, dunno why really, WWII changed that forever, what prestige is for when your soldiers look silly and are easily killed ? There's no honor in death, nor glory in killing, there's only greed.

Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2017, 05:25:05 am »
Quote
That's it! I've come up with a new recipe!

Offline Saras

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2017, 11:53:04 am »
Indeed

I don't see the relevance of that?

It's actually amusing how War as we know it, changed since then. back then it was also meant to show some sort of Prestige, dunno why really, WWII changed that forever, what prestige is for when your soldiers look silly and are easily killed ? There's no honor in death, nor glory in killing, there's only greed.

I wouldn't go that far. While that might have some truth to it what concerned the commanders, the soldiers only interest was in the greed of it throughout all of time.

Offline megido-rev.M

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2017, 05:17:09 am »
^ The not-so-fun fact I linked was basically an example of fighting for honor/prestige, but none of the 5K got any of it.
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That's it! I've come up with a new recipe!

Offline blackhole

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Re: Yōjo Senki: Saga of Tanya the Evil [Studio NUT]
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2017, 10:09:02 am »
None would, it's the dead mentality.

The best way to describe it is how Lina Inverse described it.
"Honor and glory in death ? Dead is Dead ! Only a fool thinks otherwise !"