Author Topic: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers  (Read 763 times)


Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2017, 03:07:47 pm »
Sounds like a normal tax that instead of petrol, has to be applied to the vehicle itself. I haven't cross-checked the states but I wouldn't be surprised if those states have a not-so-small income from taxing petrol.

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Offline halfelite

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2017, 06:17:51 pm »
The same states are also promoting infrastructure for charging stations. Its just a replacement for GAS tax. Why should electric cars not have to contribute to the fund to maintain roads? A lot of states are looking into actual usage tax vs gas/electric. Oregon is one California is another that have pilot programs going that when you file your taxes at the end of the year you say you drove X amount of miles on the roads in that state so you have to pay X amount of dollars.

I have an even better one. California was in a drought we were told by the water agency to cut water usage by 15% and if you did not you got hit with a huge bill well everyone in my water agency cut water usage we got letters in the mail thanking everyone for a great job now they turned around and increased our water bills by 30% because they no longer had the same revenue coming in. So by being water conservative and doing what we were told we still get a nailed.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2017, 08:02:07 pm »
Automatic current measuring infrastructure is being installed in all households in Norway right now. Electricity providers are getting prepared to take charge their customers extra for using electricity above certain watt limit in order to encourage people to charge electric cars during night or other non peak hours. Meanwhile there are planned investments into international power lines and inprovement of the grid itself.

When we switch from one form of energy to another, it is only natural for providers to adapt and for governments to tax the usage accordingly.

Offline halfelite

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2017, 09:13:53 pm »
Automatic current measuring infrastructure is being installed in all households in Norway right now. Electricity providers are getting prepared to take charge their customers extra for using electricity above certain watt limit in order to encourage people to charge electric cars during night or other non peak hours. Meanwhile there are planned investments into international power lines and inprovement of the grid itself.

When we switch from one form of energy to another, it is only natural for providers to adapt and for governments to tax the usage accordingly.

We have smart meters as well. So far they are not using them yet for extra charge. What I do get hit with is a fee for having solar panels on my house though. As I am not contributing enough money each money to help maintain the grid I have to pay a fee of $15 a month for having solar panels.

And the fees are actually cheap on EV. at 150$ that is half of what I pay in California gas tax yearly which is around $397 a year.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 09:16:55 pm by halfelite »

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2017, 09:19:54 pm »
Why should electric cars not have to contribute to the fund to maintain roads?
Everyone contribute to funding roads, not just car owners.
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2017, 11:12:01 pm »
Why should electric cars not have to contribute to the fund to maintain roads?
Everyone contribute to funding roads, not just car owners.

Is it that different in north america? Every litre of petrol you buy comes with a 43ct road maintenance tax here, that electric cars don't have to pay.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2017, 11:28:27 pm »
Why should electric cars not have to contribute to the fund to maintain roads?
Everyone contribute to funding roads, not just car owners.

Is it that different in north america? Every litre of petrol you buy comes with a 43ct road maintenance tax here, that electric cars don't have to pay.
Roads get funded in in different ways at the same time. Taxes on gasoline are just one a them.
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2017, 12:08:41 am »
Why should electric cars not have to contribute to the fund to maintain roads?
Everyone contribute to funding roads, not just car owners.

Is it that different in north america? Every litre of petrol you buy comes with a 43ct road maintenance tax here, that electric cars don't have to pay.
Roads get funded in in different ways at the same time. Taxes on gasoline are just one a them.

That doesn't change the fact that one group gives in significantly more money than the other.

Non drives contribute X. Drivers contribute X+Y. And the Y, at least in Europes case isn't small and increases based on the amount of time a driver spends behind the wheel.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2017, 01:48:22 am »
And the Y, at least in Europes case isn't small and increases based on the amount of time a driver spends behind the wheel.
The Y also increases or diminishes based on the fuel efficiency of the vehicle being driven. That's nothing new.
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2017, 02:57:02 am »
And the Y, at least in Europes case isn't small and increases based on the amount of time a driver spends behind the wheel.
The Y also increases or diminishes based on the fuel efficiency of the vehicle being driven. That's nothing new.

Yes. And laws aren't as fast at adapting as is technology.

I assume the end goal is to make the burden more equivalent, irrespective of the method of transportation used.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2017, 04:55:26 am »
I assume the end goal is to make the burden more equivalent, irrespective of the method of transportation used.
Well, if everyone switches for electric cars then the burden will still be equivalent, right?
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2017, 07:40:10 pm »
I assume the end goal is to make the burden more equivalent, irrespective of the method of transportation used.
Well, if everyone switches for electric cars then the burden will still be equivalent, right?

"If", there's a good 15 years at a minimum before that's the case and it's not exactly easy predicting a situation that's changing as rapidly as it is now.

That said... Look, I'm going to be straight here, I have no fucking clue what the argument is. If you do have one, please restate it, because I lost it several posts ago.

Offline JoonasTo

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2017, 09:02:43 pm »
You do realise that the road maintenance is like one fifth-to-tenth of the money petrol taxes and other taxables affecting road going vehicles bring in Burk(at least in Europe?) So no, other people really don't pay for them.

Road tolls are equal between all power methods though.

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Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2017, 09:10:10 pm »
I assume the end goal is to make the burden more equivalent, irrespective of the method of transportation used.
Well, if everyone switches for electric cars then the burden will still be equivalent, right?

"If", there's a good 15 years at a minimum before that's the case and it's not exactly easy predicting a situation that's changing as rapidly as it is now.

That said... Look, I'm going to be straight here, I have no fucking clue what the argument is. If you do have one, please restate it, because I lost it several posts ago.
My argument or your argument? Because I'd think my argument is pretty obvious. Petroleum powered cars are pretty darn awful for the environment and public health. How is this a bad thing if electric vehicles happen to be comparatively advantageous tax wise? If you think it's unfair, please explain because I don't see it.

If you are really that worried about responsibility, then lets divert the tax on gasoline to environmental protection and the health system (to compensate for smog related illnesses).


You do realise that the road maintenance is like one fifth-to-tenth of the money petrol taxes and other taxables affecting road going vehicles bring in Burk(at least in Europe?) So no, other people really don't pay for them.
You are contradicting yourself.
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2017, 11:02:02 pm »
I assume the end goal is to make the burden more equivalent, irrespective of the method of transportation used.
Well, if everyone switches for electric cars then the burden will still be equivalent, right?

"If", there's a good 15 years at a minimum before that's the case and it's not exactly easy predicting a situation that's changing as rapidly as it is now.

That said... Look, I'm going to be straight here, I have no fucking clue what the argument is. If you do have one, please restate it, because I lost it several posts ago.

My argument or your argument? Because I'd think my argument is pretty obvious. Petroleum powered cars are pretty darn awful for the environment and public health. How is this a bad thing if electric vehicles happen to be comparatively advantageous tax wise? If you think it's unfair, please explain because I don't see it.

If you are really that worried about responsibility, then lets divert the tax on gasoline to environmental protection and the health system (to compensate for smog related illnesses).

Oh so that's what your problem with it was. No, my point isn't that everyone has take equal responsibility.

The issues is, that with the current system in place, at least here, we wouldn't have any fucking roads if everyone drove electric. The absolute majority of the road infrastructure budget comes from taxes on fuel.

Non drivers would have to be taxed drastically more, than they are now to maintain the exact same thing we have now.

With the way things are now, alternative fuel vehicles are utterly subsidized by everyone else. That is good if you want to promote them, however, after a certain point you still need to balance the budget. And if they become too numerous before you can change that, the budget crumbles from the lack of income.

If I'm not mistaken, at the moment, electric cars outsell traditional fuel cars in Norway already. You don't have to have a math degree to see a near-future infrastructure catastrophy if you don't start thinking about changing things. You cannot subsidize something that becoming exponentially more popular and is already outperforming the traditional option in sales.


That's reason a) why it is unsustainable. There's also a problem b) what concerns the current system for electric cars, that I had forgot to mention.

The current system is literally a tax on the poor to help the rich. That shit don't fly for very long, once it starts getting abused.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2017, 11:35:14 pm by Saras »

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2017, 11:49:51 pm »
I agree with part of your logic. If electric cars because the norm, then road maintenance money is gonna have to come from somewhere else. In any case, we are still far away from there.  The situation of Plugin hybrids in Norway is an outlier, not the norm, and even there it's still just 21.52 vehicles per 1000 people.

And even when electric vehicles will be the norm, I don't think the answer should be a special tax against electric vehicles.



The current system is literally a tax on the poor to help the rich. That shit don't fly for very long, once it starts getting abused.
No, it's not literally that.
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Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2017, 12:18:53 am »
I agree with part of your logic. If electric cars because the norm, then road maintenance money is gonna have to come from somewhere else. In any case, we are still far away from there.  The situation of Plugin hybrids in Norway is an outlier, not the norm, and even there it's still just 21.52 vehicles per 1000 people.

And even when electric vehicles will be the norm, I don't think the answer should be a special tax against electric vehicles.



The current system is literally a tax on the poor to help the rich. That shit don't fly for very long, once it starts getting abused.
No, it's not literally that.

Ideally the change should be gradual in response to actual numbers, but politics don't really work like that, and if you wait too long you have a new problem. Ultimatelly, given city driving, especially in a European context, an electric car is already more attractive than one running on traditional fuels. Fix the charging issues and honestly I don't really think that they'll need that much help to dominate.

22ish out of 1000 isn't a lot. Yes, however replacement is important. And if most new cars are electric, once the current stock goes, it's going to go fast.

Fine, not literally, but functionally.

Offline Krudda

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2017, 12:34:27 am »
* Krudda eats popcorn
This is hilarious.
Australia won't have this problem. Why? Because road maintenance taxes don't come from fuel sales.
We do our tax differently, since not just petrol using vehicles use roads.
Roads are public, so the public pays to maintain them.

Offline halfelite

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2017, 05:20:08 am »
* Krudda eats popcorn
This is hilarious.
Australia won't have this problem. Why? Because road maintenance taxes don't come from fuel sales.
We do our tax differently, since not just petrol using vehicles use roads.
Roads are public, so the public pays to maintain them.

Same in the states but there is funds all over. A small portion does come from petrol tax.  This is why they are doing pilot programs for usage on the road rather then what fuel your vehicle takes. But that is still a long way off so they are doing these quick fee's on EV vehicles to fill the gaps.  This is where our public road funds are supposed to come from.

• Federal and state gastaxes
• Federal and statediesel taxes
• Vehicle weight fees
• Tolls
• Public transit fare
• Property taxes
• Benefits assessment districts
• Developer fees
• Sales taxes
• General Funds provided by federal, state, and local governments
• Externalized Costs

But I try to live better, I have solar panels on my house, I drive a non plugin hybrid. I did put a deposit on a Tesla model 3 if when the time comes I like it so I can switch to an all electric car. But I feel  we need to do something our roads are so crappy, I see people all the time on the side of the road with a blown out sidewall from hitting the huge potholes we have going on.