Author Topic: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers  (Read 770 times)

Offline Krudda

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2017, 05:37:04 am »
Meanwhile our road funds come from:
Income tax
Property rates
Revenue from traffic fines etc
Community service (unpaid mandatory labour for minor otherwise jailable offences)
Vehicle registration fees
License fees
Vehicle safety assessment fees (mandatory to renew your registration on vehicles >3 years old)
Tire disposal taxes
Various other minor taxes

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2017, 05:52:08 am »
But that is still a long way off so they are doing these quick fee's on EV vehicles to fill the gaps.  This is where our public road funds are supposed to come from.
You mean to fill the oh-so-terrible gap left by the fact that less than 1% of vehicles in the US don't run on fossil fuel?
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Offline Fool010

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 08:09:55 am »
The math is actually pretty simple. You use the roads, you pay for them regardless of what type of energy your vehicle runs on.

Hybrids/full electric vehicles shouldn't contribute proportionally more than fossile fuel powered ones, but neither should they contribute proportionally less. For all purposes and intents, we don't have the technology yet to make a full non-fossile fuel vehicle fleet a financially and technically viable option.

Besides moving to all electric is fine and dandy, but that electricity has to be produced. Phasing out traditional energy sources without ensuring we're up to par with clean and renewable energy sources before we do so is an announced disaster.

Last time I checked wishful thinking was an unlimited resource, but still didn't make wheels turn. There's no denying we need to clean up our energy management, but it's not going to be nowhere as easy or as fast as some seem to believe.
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Offline Krudda

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2017, 10:21:50 am »
What I'm wondering is how the charging stations work. Are people seriously content with sacrificing the convenience of ~1 minute fill ups at a petrol bowser in exchange for 15 minutes or more of waiting around?

Last I checked, you can't charge a battery instantly, even more so if the battery is more powerful than your average Lithium-ion.

Online JoonasTo

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2017, 01:30:22 pm »
If you are an average person, you never have to refill the car at the station anyway. Range of 300-400km is more than enough to cover most trips in most countries.
People out in the middle of nowhere in Australia or Finland or Russia or US etc. are a minority. Most people live in cities or in their immediate vicinity and very rarely travel cross country in their car. Even if they do, they're going to pause for coffee, ice cream, bathroom while filling up already, which is enough time to charge the car.

There's no logical reason not to drive electric over petrol if the network is good enough and the prices come down.


You do realise that the road maintenance is like one fifth-to-tenth of the money petrol taxes and other taxables affecting road going vehicles bring in Burk(at least in Europe?) So no, other people really don't pay for them.
You are contradicting yourself.
How so?

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Offline surdumil

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2017, 03:38:45 pm »
In cold weather, the range of an electric vehicle is shit minus 1.
At -30C, modern LiPo batteries used in these things are at a fairly high risk of internal ruptures leading to self-immolation.
At -40C, they are even more of a liability.

Even at warm temperatures, an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision.
Electrics have a fair ways to go yet for universal use.
Battery technologies just aren't there yet.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2017, 04:30:12 pm »
The math is actually pretty simple. You use the roads, you pay for them regardless of what type of energy your vehicle runs on.
Because?

Besides moving to all electric is fine and dandy, but that electricity has to be produced. Phasing out traditional energy sources without ensuring we're up to par with clean and renewable energy sources before we do so is an announced disaster.

Last time I checked wishful thinking was an unlimited resource, but still didn't make wheels turn. There's no denying we need to clean up our energy management, but it's not going to be nowhere as easy or as fast as some seem to believe.
Science isn't wishful thinking.


In cold weather, the range of an electric vehicle is shit minus 1.
At -30C, modern LiPo batteries used in these things are at a fairly high risk of internal ruptures leading to self-immolation.
At -40C, they are even more of a liability.

Even at warm temperatures, an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision.
Electrics have a fair ways to go yet for universal use.
Battery technologies just aren't there yet.
Source?

You do realise that the road maintenance is like one fifth-to-tenth of the money petrol taxes and other taxables affecting road going vehicles bring in Burk(at least in Europe?) So no, other people really don't pay for them.
You are contradicting yourself.
How so?
Your sentence structure is confusing but it sounds like you are saying gas tax money contribute 1/5 to 1/10 of the budget for road maintenance and then you conclude that therefore other people don't contribute. This is a contradiction.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 04:38:07 pm by Burkingam »
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Offline Fool010

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2017, 05:07:42 pm »
The math is actually pretty simple. You use the roads, you pay for them regardless of what type of energy your vehicle runs on.
Because?

You forgot to turn on your brain today ?

Science isn't wishful thinking.

Not even remotely refutes anything I've said since it actually doesn't even relate.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:11:16 pm by Fool010 »
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Offline surdumil

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2017, 05:38:32 pm »
<snip>
In cold weather, the range of an electric vehicle is shit minus 1.
At -30C, modern LiPo batteries used in these things are at a fairly high risk of internal ruptures leading to self-immolation.
At -40C, they are even more of a liability.

Even at warm temperatures, an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision.
Electrics have a fair ways to go yet for universal use.
Battery technologies just aren't there yet.
Source?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a8510/for-first-responders-evs-present-new-hazards-14757450/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/electrical-safety/new-technologies-and-electrical-safety/emergency-response-to-incident-involving-electric-vehicle-battery-hazards

http://jalopnik.com/what-to-do-when-your-electric-car-catches-on-fire-an-e-1453349842

The fire hazard goes beyond collisions, actually.  There is a certain amount of risk when charging up the battery packs as well.
Also, I've been working with LiPo batteries and catching up on the literature.
Any severe physical or thermal shock can cause internal layers of the battery to short and eventually lead to thermal runaway.
This is a basic, fundamental problem with Li-Ion and Li-Po technology.

In fact, there are a number of incidents accumulating in Quebec

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/four-electric-vehicles-destroyed-by-fire
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 05:44:17 pm by surdumil »

Offline halfelite

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2017, 06:06:45 pm »
You mean to fill the oh-so-terrible gap left by the fact that less than 1% of vehicles in the US don't run on fossil fuel?

And of that 1% of US vehicles California has almost half of them if not more.

What I'm wondering is how the charging stations work. Are people seriously content with sacrificing the convenience of ~1 minute fill ups at a petrol bowser in exchange for 15 minutes or more of waiting around?

Last I checked, you can't charge a battery instantly, even more so if the battery is more powerful than your average Lithium-ion.

When I did my deposit on the Tesla I looked into it more. For the majority of my driving I would not have to worry about waiting to fill up as long as I charged my car at night.  My furthest meetings would total 120 miles all together. If I want to drive out to Las Vegas its 238 miles So I would most likely stop along the way just to be safe. At a 15 minute stop that is long enough to hit the bathroom buy a bottle of water or a snack and then head back on the road.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 06:15:46 pm by halfelite »

Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2017, 06:22:32 pm »
* Krudda eats popcorn
This is hilarious.
Australia won't have this problem. Why? Because road maintenance taxes don't come from fuel sales.
We do our tax differently, since not just petrol using vehicles use roads.
Roads are public, so the public pays to maintain them.

Same in the states but there is funds all over. A small portion does come from petrol tax.  This is why they are doing pilot programs for usage on the road rather then what fuel your vehicle takes. But that is still a long way off so they are doing these quick fee's on EV vehicles to fill the gaps.  This is where our public road funds are supposed to come from.

• Federal and state gastaxes
• Federal and statediesel taxes
• Vehicle weight fees
• Tolls
• Public transit fare
• Property taxes
• Benefits assessment districts
• Developer fees
• Sales taxes
• General Funds provided by federal, state, and local governments
• Externalized Costs

But I try to live better, I have solar panels on my house, I drive a non plugin hybrid. I did put a deposit on a Tesla model 3 if when the time comes I like it so I can switch to an all electric car. But I feel  we need to do something our roads are so crappy, I see people all the time on the side of the road with a blown out sidewall from hitting the huge potholes we have going on.

To be fair, we do pay like nearly twice per the same volume of petrol as you do. Unless I made some error in my calculations, 95 is going for roughly 4.41$/US gallon at the moment.

Honestly, I prefer it this way, I have little issues in giving break for alternative travel methods that can be ultimately beneficial. The question is how much of a leeway they should be provided.

I don't really care that say a cyclist uses a road and doesn't pay a damn thing to do it. Bravo to hium that he cycles.

In cold weather, the range of an electric vehicle is shit minus 1.
At -30C, modern LiPo batteries used in these things are at a fairly high risk of internal ruptures leading to self-immolation.
At -40C, they are even more of a liability.

Even at warm temperatures, an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision.
Electrics have a fair ways to go yet for universal use.
Battery technologies just aren't there yet.

At -40 most city cars ain't running either. Also, something like 90% of the human population doesn't really get to experience <-20 degree weather. If you assume worldwide scale, that's functionally an edge case.

Still I won't argue that batteries are somewhat fickle.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 06:30:54 pm by Saras »

Offline surdumil

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2017, 06:44:33 pm »
Where I live, on the Canadian Great Plains, most city cars run at -40C.
Well... non-electrics, anyway.

Lead-acid batteries are pretty hard to beat for durability.
They suck for energy density though.

Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2017, 07:54:14 pm »
<snip>
In cold weather, the range of an electric vehicle is shit minus 1.
At -30C, modern LiPo batteries used in these things are at a fairly high risk of internal ruptures leading to self-immolation.
At -40C, they are even more of a liability.

Even at warm temperatures, an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision.
Electrics have a fair ways to go yet for universal use.
Battery technologies just aren't there yet.
Source?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a8510/for-first-responders-evs-present-new-hazards-14757450/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/research-reports/electrical-safety/new-technologies-and-electrical-safety/emergency-response-to-incident-involving-electric-vehicle-battery-hazards

http://jalopnik.com/what-to-do-when-your-electric-car-catches-on-fire-an-e-1453349842

The fire hazard goes beyond collisions, actually.  There is a certain amount of risk when charging up the battery packs as well.
Also, I've been working with LiPo batteries and catching up on the literature.
Any severe physical or thermal shock can cause internal layers of the battery to short and eventually lead to thermal runaway.
This is a basic, fundamental problem with Li-Ion and Li-Po technology.

In fact, there are a number of incidents accumulating in Quebec

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/four-electric-vehicles-destroyed-by-fire
Your claim is that that "an electric car equipped with LiPos is a severe fire hazard in a collision". Your sources demonstrate that there is a fire risk, but they don't demonstrate that this risk is "severe" or even just greater than with petroleum powered cars. That's not very sciency.

And of that 1% of US vehicles California has almost half of them if not more.
In case you hadn't noticed from OP's article, California isn't considering making up new taxes against EV.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 08:02:48 pm by Burkingam »
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Offline Krudda

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2017, 08:02:40 pm »
To be fair, we do pay like nearly twice per the same volume of petrol as you do. Unless I made some error in my calculations, 95 is going for roughly 4.41$/US gallon at the moment.
Not sure who this is addressed to, but just like to add that where I live, the current price of petrol/fuel (and it has been this price for several months give/take 10c) is $1.56 per L of 98 octane, $1.48/L of 95 octane.

If we convert that to American figures, thats $4.54USD/Gallon for 98 octane and $4.32USD/Gallon for 95 octane

This is going by current exchange rate of 1USD=1.30AUD (1AUD=0.77USD)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 08:06:38 pm by Krudda »

Offline surdumil

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2017, 08:14:39 pm »
blah blah blah

Meh.  You're silly and not worth bothering with.

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2017, 11:23:46 pm »
They like to test cars in Finland a lot. Electric ones too. The current battery lifetime at -30C is around 70-80% of what spec gives so there's still a long way to go there.

At -40 most city cars ain't running either. Also, something like 90% of the human population doesn't really get to experience <-20 degree weather. If you assume worldwide scale, that's functionally an edge case.
They do run these days, even others than Ladas. I remember having to cold crank my -95 WRX at -46C and aside from the heart rending idle at 3400, no issues.
-01 Focus no issues either(aside from the -10k km on the engine life ofc.)

French ones won't start though. I doubt italians will either.

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Offline halfelite

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2017, 11:42:14 pm »

To be fair, we do pay like nearly twice per the same volume of petrol as you do. Unless I made some error in my calculations, 95 is going for roughly 4.41$/US gallon at the moment.


we dont even get offered 95 in California we  have. 87,89,91. Currently 91 is going for $2.90 a gallon. We where up around $4.50 2 years ago when gas was so high but right now we are pretty low.

Offline Saras

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2017, 11:01:38 am »
They like to test cars in Finland a lot. Electric ones too. The current battery lifetime at -30C is around 70-80% of what spec gives so there's still a long way to go there.

At -40 most city cars ain't running either. Also, something like 90% of the human population doesn't really get to experience <-20 degree weather. If you assume worldwide scale, that's functionally an edge case.
They do run these days, even others than Ladas. I remember having to cold crank my -95 WRX at -46C and aside from the heart rending idle at 3400, no issues.
-01 Focus no issues either(aside from the -10k km on the engine life ofc.)

French ones won't start though. I doubt italians will either.

I was kind of thinking of something like a fiat 500 or a shitty peugoet company car when I wrote that, not exactly a wrx :D

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2017, 01:35:14 pm »
Yeaaaah, those have issues. I know a certain Renault Clio -06 that gets security locked if it goes beyond -27C. Obviously it thinks someone is going to steal it since no honest person would be out at that temperature. ;D

To be fair, we do pay like nearly twice per the same volume of petrol as you do. Unless I made some error in my calculations, 95 is going for roughly 4.41$/US gallon at the moment.

we dont even get offered 95 in California we  have. 87,89,91. Currently 91 is going for $2.90 a gallon. We where up around $4.50 2 years ago when gas was so high but right now we are pretty low.
95 RON is pretty much equal to 89 AKI.

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Offline Burkingam

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Re: Flurry of State Bills Introduced to Penalize Electric Car Drivers
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2017, 08:25:53 pm »
blah blah blah

Meh.  You're silly and not worth bothering with.
Get over yourself maybe? This discussion isn't about you and me and considering that a risk which hasn't been quantified can't be considered "severe" isn't silly.
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