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Discussion Forums => General Discussions => Politics => Topic started by: occasional on March 23, 2011, 09:32:24 PM

Title: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on March 23, 2011, 09:32:24 PM
Thought this'd be interesting:

http://public-consultation.org/exercise/

Basically you can change the 2015 government's budget for each area of spending, set tax rates and try to fix Social Security to try to lower the projected $625B deficit.

Try to be realistic though, so don't just go halving the defense budget or maxing out tax rates for everyone!  ;D
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on March 23, 2011, 10:03:15 PM
I failed. It doesn't leave the option for supporting the troops, without developing stupid unnecessary and over-priced new weapons systems. That's where I stopped.

Does it really take billions, where maybe millions or even thousands would suffice? How good a budget do we have if all we do is juggle numbers? Have we provided for the common defense, promoted the general welfare, secured the blessings of liberty, to ourselves and our posterity? Or did we just make ourselves feel good, by not hurting someone too badly?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 23, 2011, 10:44:38 PM
Weapon development is necessary to remain a dominant military power.  10 year of reduced r&d spending will render your military force incapable of any serious offensive action.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on March 23, 2011, 10:44:59 PM
yea the big thing that will allow us to cut entire deficit in budget over time is AXE lockheed martin and allow open bids from defense firms on all US contracts in regards to both R&D and every day items.
Basically allow capitalism to work its thing in the military.

@tomoya the biggest problem with the military is not what it buys per say but how it buys things.
A vast majority of all things sold to the military is contracted and overpriced, and the companies that sell to them rarely change.
So you end up getting a military that wastes billions upon billions because of the lack of competition
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on March 23, 2011, 11:26:05 PM
LOL, I set income taxes on max and it still wasn't even getting close to the ones we are paying here.

Yeah, higher taxes would immediately fix most problems there. If we can pay them, so can you.

Also it seems that setting policy to isolatioanism really saves money for USA. Aid to foreign countries? Fuck them, a big fat zero.
Money on research for various things like renewable energy? Fuck that, a zero there as well, after all if that business is profitable, private companies will research everything themselves, if it's not profitable, then even government subsidiaries won't make much difference on a big scale.

But hey, I am not greedy. I am totally against shit like VAT and taxing alcohol and sugar drinks. A person should only be taxed once, in my opinion. Either income tax, or various taxes for products and services, not both.

As for military, cutting down to 500 billions, after all, there is no need to maintain such military if the country drops the "world police bullshit", however raising nuclear arsenal budget. Whatever it takes to keep M.A.D status, I say.


I must admit I stopped after a while there. I mean just changing numbers doesn't work. If I cut the budget to help those with disabilities, it will not solve anything, after all there is no option for me to tick off "start an eugenics program" so that there won't be so many people with disabilities to begin with.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: JoonasTo on March 23, 2011, 11:37:31 PM
That was pretty lousy. Drop military budget and not specify what or where. Pulling out of Germany would be a hell of a different thing than pulling out of South Korea!

USA uses ridiculous amounts of money on bureocracy, and how much did the new raptors cost again? 150 million per plane with development costs around 65 billion making 500 million per plane combined witht he current plans of production. With export ban even to other old NATO countries? Please, that's just idiocy. You've got the fucking tech now, use it, build them, SELL THEM!

So yes, it was stupid, I ended around 126 billion on minus but that wouldn't go through in the congress because I made their taxes progressive.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 24, 2011, 12:02:34 AM
As for military, cutting down to 500 billions, after all, there is no need to maintain such military if the country drops the "world police bullshit".

To me, it seems like maintaining world military dominance and control is important for the U.S.  To maintain this control, they need to keep raising spending, now lowering it.

Similar to the British empire, which declined after so many spending cuts.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 12:48:58 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 24, 2011, 12:51:45 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 02:00:14 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png)

You could cut it in half and America would still be roughly equivalent to what Europe spends.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Hiero on March 24, 2011, 02:35:18 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png)

You could cut it in half and America would still be roughly equivalent to what Europe spends.

But you forget that we go to war, have multiple fronts occupied, and in certain cases save others' asses.  :-\

*Then I saw your sig and it hit me like a revelation.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 03:31:45 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png)

You could cut it in half and America would still be roughly equivalent to what Europe spends.

But you forget that we go to war, have multiple fronts occupied, and in certain cases save others' asses.  :-\

*Then I saw your sig and it hit me like a revelation.

Fighting fourth-rate armies in third world countries? I use the term army loosely here. One would have thought that the destruction of the USSR would make people a little less jittery.

You can do what you want; I don't see any balancing of the budget when touching taxes and military spending is taboo in American politics.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 24, 2011, 04:06:27 AM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png)

You could cut it in half and America would still be roughly equivalent to what Europe spends.

You could cut it in half and America will lose it's global influence.

Exactly what happened to the British empire post WWII

(http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/ukgs_line.php?title=Military%20defence&year=1940_2010&sname=&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&spending0=8.72_37.21_43.08_47.95_48.62_51.73_44.24_11.51_6.35_5.47_5.11_7.97_9.84_9.64_8.97_8.16_8.09_7.38_6.95_6.58_6.32_6.29_6.41_6.22_5.99_5.87_5.78_5.99_5.60_4.90_4.77_4.84_4.74_4.65_4.83_4.84_4.92_4.66_4.47_4.51_4.90_4.93_5.16_4.75_4.76_4.81_4.68_4.29_3.95_3.66_3.65_3.62_3.68_3.50_3.29_3.05_2.76_2.68_2.46_2.55_2.47_2.43_2.28_2.03_2.06_1.99_2.00_1.97_1.91_2.22_2.15&legend=&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_b)


While the U.S has maintained it's rather moderate spending.

(http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/usgs_line.php?title=Military%20defense&year=1940_2010&sname=US&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&col=c&spending0=1.55_4.64_13.98_30.66_33.97_36.15_19.21_5.69_3.95_4.26_4.13_5.64_10.87_11.56_10.65_8.63_8.13_8.47_8.35_8.14_7.85_7.91_8.94_8.64_8.25_7.04_7.38_8.58_9.00_8.38_7.87_7.00_6.40_5.55_5.29_5.28_4.91_4.79_4.56_4.54_4.81_5.04_5.70_5.94_5.79_5.99_6.13_5.95_5.69_5.54_5.16_4.56_4.70_4.37_3.98_3.67_3.39_3.25_3.05_2.94_2.96_2.96_3.27_3.63_3.84_3.92_3.89_3.92_4.27_4.64_4.78&legend=&source=a_i_a_i_a_i_a_i_a_i_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a)

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Cuan on March 24, 2011, 08:03:34 AM
The flash thingy died thrice on me, so I didn't finish it. Also, it doesn't show any difference other than subtracting the number whether I cut the military budget down to half, a third or a quarter of the current value, so where's the point.

I'd reduce spending on the military and the War on Drugs and foreign military aid substantially, with some cuts to veterans (Cause yeah, fuck them), while on the other hand increasing spending on research, education and international organizations. I also raised taxes for incomes above 200000$ and soft drinks. I managed to get a surplus at that point, but then flash always crashed.

Weapon development is necessary to remain a dominant military power.  10 year of reduced r&d spending will render your military force incapable of any serious offensive action.
So what? Which country do you want the US to invade? The only purpose I consider maintaining military forces legitimate for is to protect yourself from outer threats, but not to act as an aggressor. Diplomacy and a certain degree of intelligence operations generally seem much more cost-effective to me. Hell, everything seems to be more cost-effective to me than invading a country to spread democracy and civil war.

To me, it seems like maintaining world military dominance and control is important for the U.S.  To maintain this control, they need to keep raising spending, now lowering it.

Similar to the British empire, which declined after so many spending cuts.
You want to maintain military dominance while China keeps rushing towards you on the economical front? I don't consider China (or any other country) a real military threat, but even by halving the military budget, the US would spend a higher percentage of their GDP on it than China, and more money in absolute than the whole European Union.

The British Empire also declined because their military presence around the globe led the country nearly into bankruptcy.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on March 24, 2011, 08:23:36 AM
Fighting fourth-rate armies in third world countries?

That reminded me of:
(click to show/hide)

 ;D
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: sanguis on March 24, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
Well I'm going through it as we speak, so far I've actually increased spending on everything except the Military from which I've cut $201 Billion, so I'm sitting at a deficit of $506B.


wait, why can I only increase the top threshold to 30%?? That doesn't make any sense, why can't I increase it to more realistic options like 50%? Anyway I went 0 / 5 / 20 / 30 / 30 / 10 / 20 / 30. I've now got a deficit of $129.2B

Increased taxes on Corporations to 30%, now a deficit of $30.2B

Taxed the Hedge fund managers, deficit now sits at $28.7B.

Added the Crisis fee, deficit now sits at $19.7B.

Put on the heaviest carbon tax, now have a Surplus of $94.3B

Heavy alcohol tax, surplus now $106.3B

Taxed Sugary drinks at the highest, surplus now $142.3B

Added VAT of 10%, surplus now $474.3B

Kept estate tax as is.


My Budget surplus for 2015 is $474B

That really wasn't hard....

Balanced Social Security by having all wages pay into it, tied the increases to prices not wages and adjusted it to include the items people bought and then increased the benefits, solving 100% of the Social Security deficit.


So the whole thing is now "solved" and I've put in a $474B surplus, in fact I could have even increased military spending and I would have still come out on top...... why are you yanks bitching again?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Guru Zeb on March 24, 2011, 09:25:05 AM
Well I'm going through it as we speak, so far I've actually increased spending on everything except the Military from which I've cut $201 Billion, so I'm sitting at a deficit of $506B.


wait, why can I only increase the top threshold to 30%?? That doesn't make any sense, why can't I increase it to more realistic options like 50%? Anyway I went 0 / 5 / 20 / 30 / 30 / 10 / 20 / 30. I've now got a deficit of $129.2B

Increased taxes on Corporations to 30%, now a deficit of $30.2B

Taxed the Hedge fund managers, deficit now sits at $28.7B.

Added the Crisis fee, deficit now sits at $19.7B.

Put on the heaviest carbon tax, now have a Surplus of $94.3B

Heavy alcohol tax, surplus now $106.3B

Taxed Sugary drinks at the highest, surplus now $142.3B

Added VAT of 10%, surplus now $474.3B

Kept estate tax as is.


My Budget surplus for 2015 is $474B

That really wasn't hard....

Balanced Social Security by having all wages pay into it, tied the increases to prices not wages and adjusted it to include the items people bought and then increased the benefits, solving 100% of the Social Security deficit.


So the whole thing is now "solved" and I've put in a $474B surplus, in fact I could have even increased military spending and I would have still come out on top...... why are you yanks bitching again?

(http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m66/Guru_Zeb/forum%20gifs/MotherofGod.jpg)

Can't help the feeling that somewhere in the pocket universe you've created a bunch of American 'Patriots' are planning for Pres Sanguis to have an imminent, ultra close encounter, with a grassy knoll, and a high powered medium calibre munition.

Methinks the peace loving peoples of America would consider Major deal breakers:
Heavy alcohol taxes
Massive carbon taxes
10% VAT ( almost forgot this as it sounds insignificant to a Brit currently paying 20% )
Add into the toxic mix some judicious sedition manufacturing by:
The military industrial complex
The corporations you want to tax
The money markets you want to tax
The food industry you want to tax

Am Brit so most of your 'plan' is basic operating principals (except the excessive carbon tax) to me ........ but i wouldn't expect you to live to see any of them implemented if you tried dropping that shit in the states ......... it would be seriously funny to see someone try it though.  ;D
Probably end in a coup  :o
Invest your surplus in a Saiyan presidential protection unit.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 01:49:27 PM
I achieved a surplus of 2.5 billion, mostly by slashing the defence budget by 35.2% and implementing a modest tax increase for those earning over 70k and above and trimming programs almost across the board. I cut farm subsidies for agribusiness entirely and moderately increased the corporate tax rate. I'd have had a higher surplus but I increased foreign aid and money for job retraining, education, and research.

I put a tax on soft drinks largely because those advertisements by the food industry lobby piss me off. Alcohol as well, since American beer is simply awful and deserves death.

Why would you do such a thing to their defense budget?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e28cfcc56891df08bf32a556eb9d6d90.png)

You could cut it in half and America would still be roughly equivalent to what Europe spends.

You could cut it in half and America will lose it's global influence.

Exactly what happened to the British empire post WWII


Is America in an arms race with an invisible enemy? Their budget is multiples of times larger than anywhere else, so I'm wondering if their building up for a Martian invasion or something.  I've yet to see spending figures on the Martian national economy, but as long as we're blocking their view of Venus were in imminent risk. Even with a 35.2% cut, which I think is relatively fair, America would still have by far the biggest penis in the room...Go You

At any rate -

America's influence is due more to their economy than their military strength - America hasn't... well except for a few places in the Caribbean and Pacific... expended military strength to control half the world with direct political influence. Not that the military is without its benefits, but commercial globalization and dominating global finances is why America is so wildly popular with the kids these days.  The debt is a bigger concern to America's welfare.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 24, 2011, 04:10:55 PM
Weapon development is necessary to remain a dominant military power.  10 year of reduced r&d spending will render your military force incapable of any serious offensive action.
So what? Which country do you want the US to invade? The only purpose I consider maintaining military forces legitimate for is to protect yourself from outer threats, but not to act as an aggressor. Diplomacy and a certain degree of intelligence operations generally seem much more cost-effective to me. Hell, everything seems to be more cost-effective to me than invading a country to spread democracy and civil war.

The U.S should be able to invade an country which is acting in an aggresive manner and invading other countries.  Or attacking themselves.

For example, 1940, the U.S is not in a position to aid Europe against the German invasion, the U.S loses the philipines to the Japs, they navy is a second rate navy dating to the first world war, and they do not posses the ability to launch any capable offensive action for at least two years.

To me, it seems like maintaining world military dominance and control is important for the U.S.  To maintain this control, they need to keep raising spending, now lowering it.

Similar to the British empire, which declined after so many spending cuts.
You want to maintain military dominance while China keeps rushing towards you on the economical front? I don't consider China (or any other country) a real military threat, but even by halving the military budget, the US would spend a higher percentage of their GDP on it than China, and more money in absolute than the whole European Union.

The British Empire also declined because their military presence around the globe led the country nearly into bankruptcy.

The U.S maintains economic dominance partially due to their strong position on the world stage.  Before the British Empire went bankrupt due to the wars, they were the top economic power with imports from their colonies.

To maintain control, the U.S should spend twice as much as the next two largest political entities combined.

Almost works out, counting the EU's 322 Billion.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on March 24, 2011, 05:10:09 PM
LOL, I set income taxes on max and it still wasn't even getting close to the ones we are paying here.

Yeah, higher taxes would immediately fix most problems there. If we can pay them, so can you.


How many times have we done this, Ace? There are things you get for free in your tiny country that we don't here. We don't have nearly as many government services as you guys do.

By the way, tell your friends in Sweden thanks for this Johannson kid the Capitals drafted. He's f'n awesome. Backstrom one year and now Johnannson - y'all produce great centers in Scandinavia. I wrote a brief letter to Ted Leonsis (owner) telling him to invest more in Scandinavia, all your kids pan out.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Cuan on March 24, 2011, 05:47:34 PM
The U.S should be able to invade an country which is acting in an aggresive manner and invading other countries.  Or attacking themselves.
Why do you think the USA should have such an exceptional role? And where are you from… Canada? :o

I don't think it's their role to act as a World Police, and the government's selectiveness in their interventions suggests that they don't see themselves in that position. Or else they would have invaded Israel decades ago.

Quote
To maintain control, the U.S should spend twice as much as the next two largest political entities combined.
The US don't have military control over the world, nor do they need it. Nobody believes that they could control the world anyway, or everybody would join up in the arms race.

They just have a ridiculously oversized military budget, which hurts their non-military industry (which could see more investment) as well as their population (which either has to pay more taxes to afford it or screw over upcoming generations). What do they get for it? Little improvement in the nation's security, but on the other hand, in some parts of the world Americans can't be open about the country they are from without fearing for their life. The anti-American sentiments in these regions don't come from Mickey Mouse or Coca Cola.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 06:12:15 PM
It won't be long, like 10 years, at the pace America is going, that they'll be spending a trillion yearly to maintain their armed forces. It's unreasonable to continue military build up just to deal with zealously delusional criminals or tin-pot dictatorships in the third world.

Besides, much of the armed forces are somewhat redundant when you have thermonuclear weapons. If the British Empire could have threatened Germany with a nuclear holocaust, things would have gone differently
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Virar Needa on March 24, 2011, 06:36:26 PM
Done. National military disbanded, states are now responsible for their own defense. CRISIS AVERTED! Where's my Nobel Prize?

Here's a fun question: without looking at Wikipedia, name the last time American soil was attacked by a conventional army.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on March 24, 2011, 06:43:50 PM
To maintain control, the U.S should spend twice as much as the next two largest political entities combined.
The two power standard... DOING IT WRONG
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on March 24, 2011, 06:44:10 PM
Didn't Canada invade USA once?  ;D
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 24, 2011, 06:50:30 PM
Didn't Canada invade USA once?  ;D

The invasion is an ongoing process, sneaking into American society and acting like them. We have entire towns here set up so Canadians can learn to act American, the infiltration process is ongoing - but eventually America will be made to love hockey, medicare, and government sponsored television.

Done. National military disbanded, states are now responsible for their own defense. CRISIS AVERTED! Where's my Nobel Prize?

Here's a fun question: without looking at Wikipedia, name the last time American soil was attacked by a conventional army.

Kenyan embassy was only a little over decade ago - though I suppose one could quibble over the meaning of "conventional army".

To maintain control, the U.S should spend twice as much as the next two largest political entities combined.
The two power standard... DOING IT WRONG

They could just take all their jets, boats, and tanks - paint them red and put a horn on them.

Three times the power.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on March 24, 2011, 07:17:29 PM
Slash defense to about 3/4 of current size, 5% VAT +5% income tax for EVERYONE +5% tax for corporations. Optional crisis fee. Small carbon tax. Small alcohol tax. 1cent per ounce soft drinks.

Military whores are kept somewhat happy, everyone makes little sacrifices.

Also more funding for medical research, maybe for NASA too. Highspeed and intercity rail get more funding too. a bit more for renewable/green energy. Less subsidies for larger farms and a bit more for small farms. Veterans get a little more too as does education, mostly in college funding. Homeland security lose 2 Billion though.

As for social security, increase retirement age to 70. That'll do for now.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 24, 2011, 09:37:51 PM
The U.S should be able to invade an country which is acting in an aggresive manner and invading other countries.  Or attacking themselves.
Why do you think the USA should have such an exceptional role? And where are you from… Canada? :o

The role is not exceptional; all countries should maintain an army capable of offensive action.  The U.S will not be left helpless like in 1940.




To maintain control, the U.S should spend twice as much as the next two largest political entities combined.
The US don't have military control over the world, nor do they need it. Nobody believes that they could control the world anyway, or everybody would join up in the arms race.

They have a very large sphere of influence and they conduct most of the operations nowadays, most of Odyssey Dawn is US operations.

Here's a fun question: without looking at Wikipedia, name the last time American soil was attacked by a conventional army.

if we are talking mainland U.S, the Japanese shelled an oil refinery in Ellwood, California in 1942
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on March 25, 2011, 02:47:49 PM
Costa Rica doesn't have an army, mostly because they don't need one, but the point is, you don't "need" a super rape ass army. Whilst I agree that the USA having no army whatsoever would be retarded, at least in the foreseeable future. it needn't be anywhere NEAR as large.
I'd like to add, Never...EVER was the USA helpless during WW2. Everyone (particularly the British empire) was begging them to help out, they just chose not to.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 25, 2011, 02:55:54 PM
I'd like to add, Never...EVER was the USA helpless during WW2. Everyone (particularly the British empire) was begging them to help out, they just chose not to.

Err, let's go back to 1940.  The U.S airforce is dating, with vastly inferior planes to the BF-109 of Germany.  Her armored force consists of Lee tanks which are pieces of crap.  her AT guns are old interwar models.  Her navy dates back to WWI and is crippled by both the London naval treater and the Japanese attack a later in 1941.

Only their industrial capacity allowed them to rebuild so quickly. The French National Army was fielding better equiptment in 1940, and that says a lot
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on March 25, 2011, 02:59:25 PM
Spend the money on military R&D. It saves lives later. Or would you rather send soldiers out to battle like the old Soviets in WWII did, the Vietnamese during Tet, or just the modern Chinese way? Because quantity has a quality all its own??? We could never project power anywhere, except to try to bomb the next enemy into the stone age. Oops, so sorry, civilian casualties. Shouldn't have let yourselves grow a dictator. Good answer.

Taxing businesses at the highest rate would be better than to be up one year, down the next, and maybe a higher rate later on. But still you'll be able to watch a lot of businesses leave for some third world nation that would be just tickled pink to have the business just show up.

What would Norway do if Brent North Sea crude dried up? Don't think they could tax themselves out of the mess they'd find themselves in.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on March 25, 2011, 03:09:43 PM
I'd like to add, Never...EVER was the USA helpless during WW2. Everyone (particularly the British empire) was begging them to help out, they just chose not to.

Err, let's go back to 1940.  The U.S airforce is dating, with vastly inferior planes to the BF-109 of Germany.  Her armored force consists of Lee tanks which are pieces of crap.  her AT guns are old interwar models.  Her navy dates back to WWI and is crippled by both the London naval treater and the Japanese attack a later in 1941.

Only their industrial capacity allowed them to rebuild so quickly. The French National Army was fielding better equiptment in 1940, and that says a lot.

America didn't need a beastly air force, Churchill promised Roosevelt that he'd do most of the air combat. Ok you got me on tanks, but even with a dated navy (unfortunately Britain couldn't back the Americans up much here) America was not helpless by any means. Their ground force was capable of... well... rape
Spend the money on military R&D. It saves lives later. Or would you rather send soldiers out to battle like the old Soviets in WWII did, the Vietnamese during Tet, or just the modern Chinese way? Because quantity has a quality all its own??? We could never project power anywhere, except to try to bomb the next enemy into the stone age..
Need I remind you who actually captured Berlin? Who won the Vietnam war? and who is about to become one of the biggest players in the international stage? You're just making battles out to be the whole war. The American army is over reliant on technology as it stands. heck they could stop R&D for 3 years and people would only JUST be catching up.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 25, 2011, 03:16:47 PM
I'd like to add, Never...EVER was the USA helpless during WW2. Everyone (particularly the British empire) was begging them to help out, they just chose not to.

Err, let's go back to 1940.  The U.S airforce is dating, with vastly inferior planes to the BF-109 of Germany.  Her armored force consists of Lee tanks which are pieces of crap.  her AT guns are old interwar models.  Her navy dates back to WWI and is crippled by both the London naval treater and the Japanese attack a later in 1941.

Only their industrial capacity allowed them to rebuild so quickly. The French National Army was fielding better equiptment in 1940, and that says a lot.

America didn't need a beastly air force, Churchill promised Roosevelt that he'd do most of the air combat. Ok you got me on tanks, but even with a dated navy (unfortunately Britain couldn't back the Americans up much here) America was not helpless by any means. Their ground force was capable of... well... rape

I'm not sure what "rape" you are referring to.

"The National Defense Act of 1920 allowed an Army of 280,000, the largest in peacetime history, but until 1939 Congress never appropriated funds to pay for much more than half of that strength... Throughout most of the interwar period, the Army was tiny and insular, filled with hard-bitten, long-serving volunteers scattered in small garrisons throughout the continental United States, Hawaii, the Philippines, and Panama."

Spend the money on military R&D. It saves lives later. Or would you rather send soldiers out to battle like the old Soviets in WWII did, the Vietnamese during Tet, or just the modern Chinese way? Because quantity has a quality all its own??? We could never project power anywhere, except to try to bomb the next enemy into the stone age..
Need I remind you who actually captured Berlin? Who won the Vietnam war? and who is about to become one of the biggest players in the international stage? You're just making battles out to be the whole war. The American army is over reliant on technology as it stands. heck they could stop R&D for 3 years and people would only JUST be catching up.

The American let the Russians capture berlin to avoid a conflict when meeting up, they stopped at the Elbe when they could have proceeded to Berlin.  '

They could NOT stop R&D for THREE years.  The Eurofighter is actually far superior to the slow and cumbersome F-35, while European small arms are already superior to American ones.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on March 25, 2011, 03:32:53 PM
Why would the Europeans and America EVER go to way though? Yes, the Typhoon is >9000 times better than an F-35 (which IIRC isn't in service yet) but the Raptor, Super hornet and hell even that old as hell F-16 are plenty to deal with todays problems. Besides a War isn't won with "FUCK YEAR THE BEST PLANE EVER... oops I only have 3" it's won with "FUCK YEAR 105 DECENT PLANES"

Now if you don't mind I can't argue with you, I have French revision to do.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on March 25, 2011, 04:41:04 PM
Her armored force consists of Lee tanks which are pieces of crap.

M3 Lee tanks used a 75mm cannon which was a modified 19th century French artillery cannon.  ;D It's design was archaic when WW2 started.  ;D

What would Norway do if Brent North Sea crude dried up? Don't think they could tax themselves out of the mess they'd find themselves in.

Thank you for showing your blatant ignorance about Nordic economics system. With that sentence you revealed that you know absolutely nothing at how revenue from the oil is used.

Lesson:
(click to show/hide)
And thus you know why our politicians and economists are more competent than yours.

Quote
The Eurofighter is actually far superior to the slow and cumbersome F-35, while European small arms are already superior to American ones.

Eurofighter is a piece of shit when it comes to maintenance. Never has a 4+ generation fighter been so expensive to fly and maintain as a Eurofighter. Countries like Austria can afford to buy them, but not to fly them.

Also European (read: German) small arms have always been superior to the American ones. Even the MG42 from WW2 is now modified for NATO ammunition and called MG3, much better than any machine gun any other country produced so far. M60 is a piece of shit and M240 is still crap.
US special forces are often using German weapons as well, because they need good weapons for their mission.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 25, 2011, 05:48:17 PM

What would Norway do if Brent North Sea crude dried up? Don't think they could tax themselves out of the mess they'd find themselves in.

Thank you for showing your blatant ignorance about Nordic economics system. With that sentence you revealed that you know absolutely nothing at how revenue from the oil is used.

Lesson:
(click to show/hide)
And thus you know why our politicians and economists are more competent than yours.

That's the same principle as the Ontario Teacher's pension plan, though obviously with teacher's salaries rather than oil.

All this talk of WW2 is irrelevant, if the United States went to war with anyone that could remotely pose a threat to them, it would end in thermonuclear war - the jets are just lovely ornaments when you can destroy the whole world several times over.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Guru Zeb on March 25, 2011, 11:58:55 PM
All this talk of WW2 is irrelevant, if the United States went to war with anyone that could remotely pose a threat to them, it would end in thermonuclear war - the jets are just lovely ornaments when you can destroy the whole world several times over.

Yeah but the jets look waaaaay cooler when you hang them from your bedroom roof on bits of string ....... if you do that with ICBM's they look crap, and you see lots of little spots of light when you try to go to sleep even with your eyes closed, and after a few days when you wake up you feel more tired than when you went to sleep.
Also the jets make cool noises when you push that lever thingy with all the buttons on into the red bit marked REHEAT.
I say keep the jets and sell all the Giant Panda's ........... because ....... well jets are part way to being spaceships ...... and Pandas well just aren't.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on March 26, 2011, 12:46:23 AM
LOL, I set income taxes on max and it still wasn't even getting close to the ones we are paying here.

Yeah, higher taxes would immediately fix most problems there. If we can pay them, so can you.

Also it seems that setting policy to isolatioanism really saves money for USA. Aid to foreign countries? Fuck them, a big fat zero.
Money on research for various things like renewable energy? Fuck that, a zero there as well, after all if that business is profitable, private companies will research everything themselves, if it's not profitable, then even government subsidiaries won't make much difference on a big scale.

But hey, I am not greedy. I am totally against shit like VAT and taxing alcohol and sugar drinks. A person should only be taxed once, in my opinion. Either income tax, or various taxes for products and services, not both.

As for military, cutting down to 500 billions, after all, there is no need to maintain such military if the country drops the "world police bullshit", however raising nuclear arsenal budget. Whatever it takes to keep M.A.D status, I say.


I must admit I stopped after a while there. I mean just changing numbers doesn't work. If I cut the budget to help those with disabilities, it will not solve anything, after all there is no option for me to tick off "start an eugenics program" so that there won't be so many people with disabilities to begin with.
i went with it down to 100 something billion and like a 12% surplus in social security which i could use to bankroll my other 100 some billion in debt
but i went along the same mind set lower all foreign aid to 1 or 2 billion per, cut military to 350 increased school money and some other things
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Proin Drakenzol on March 26, 2011, 01:37:29 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 26, 2011, 02:23:25 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 26, 2011, 03:20:55 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.

I'm trying to see how.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 27, 2011, 07:07:09 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.

I'm trying to see how.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal)


Use both federal and provincial values and use an amount in excess of 400k

Also other taxes come into play for different professions.  Like businesses.  Income from overseas is actually taxed differently, I believe.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 27, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.

I'm trying to see how.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal)


Use both federal and provincial values and use an amount in excess of 400k

Also other taxes come into play for different professions.  Like businesses.  Income from overseas is actually taxed differently, I believe.

I hadn't considered business taxes, I suppose they live in Quebec?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 28, 2011, 02:07:41 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.

I'm trying to see how.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html#federal)


Use both federal and provincial values and use an amount in excess of 400k

Also other taxes come into play for different professions.  Like businesses.  Income from overseas is actually taxed differently, I believe.

I hadn't considered business taxes, I suppose they live in Quebec?

One operates there.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: sdedalus83 on March 28, 2011, 05:06:57 AM
VAT wouldn't work.  It would kill state and local sales taxes and seriously hurt the sales of moderately priced goods.  Add a progressive luxury consumption tax to any product which costs more than 80% more than the average in its category.  Anyone willing to spend $7,000 on a Leica M9 would spend $10k.  Anyone willing to spend $80k on a BMW M5 would spend $140k.  Keep it relatively low until you get into products that are a few hundred percent more costly than average and then steeply raise the tax rate.  Anybody willing to spend $250k on a watch will spend $1 million.  Use the luxury tax to fund preventative and catastrophic healthcare for the general population.  Allow those paying the tax to use it as an income tax deduction.

Get rid of loopholes which allow well established executives in stable companies to receive tax free stock options.  15% of the initial offering would still encourage the practice and it would be a perfect secondary income stream for Social Security.  One which will increase in value at a considerably faster rate than inflation.

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: tomoya-kun on March 28, 2011, 05:25:07 AM
Increase sales tax to get more money.  It's a marginal amount more to pay.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on March 28, 2011, 11:43:13 AM
Anybody willing to spend $250k on a watch will spend $1 million. 
Uhm, yeah, right.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Pharismo on March 28, 2011, 08:31:57 PM
it is easy as long you raise tax.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on March 28, 2011, 11:15:34 PM
it is easy as long you raise tax.

But that assumes that the people or businesses do not leave. The US got a lot of British Rock and Roll stars as the UK had a top rate of 90%. See the Beatles song Taxman for further reference. And why Yoko Ono lives in a giant hotel she owns in NYC.

Can anyone imagine what things must have been like when the US only had excise taxes and import tariffs to pay for government? Before the Constitutional amendment that gave birth to income taxes? It's like trying to imagine life before toilet paper. You knew that they had to be doing something, but mostly you don't want to know how.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on March 29, 2011, 12:13:05 AM
It's like trying to imagine life before toilet paper. You knew that they had to be doing something, but mostly you don't want to know how.

God damn it, you crack me up with remarks like that.  ;D
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on March 29, 2011, 04:07:41 AM
huh, raising taxes (to what is still sub-European levels) balances the budget.

whoddathunkit?

how about raising income tax to 50% like in Canada... my parents are taxed 52.8% on income.
and with the extra like 20% i was taxed i was able to pay for better health insurance then canada could give me
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on March 30, 2011, 03:10:05 AM
Here's an article I just read. The Price of Taxing the Rich (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704604704576220491592684626.html). And while it read to me as a sob story of rich people who are taxes, it does point out the volatility of being overly dependent upon the high income earners. This dues to their incomes not being stable.

I just thought to throw this in here, as does anyone make any plans for when the rich , move, die, or just plain lose their shirts? Your tax revenues are going to go down the toilet.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on March 30, 2011, 06:23:09 AM
it is easy as long you raise tax.

But that assumes that the people or businesses do not leave. The US got a lot of British Rock and Roll stars as the UK had a top rate of 90%. See the Beatles song Taxman for further reference. And why Yoko Ono lives in a giant hotel she owns in NYC.

Can anyone imagine what things must have been like when the US only had excise taxes and import tariffs to pay for government? Before the Constitutional amendment that gave birth to income taxes? It's like trying to imagine life before toilet paper. You knew that they had to be doing something, but mostly you don't want to know how.


Well, if your business is anything like GE (http://politics.gather.comviewArticle.action?articleId=281474979173628), it really isn't that big of an issue, is it?

Perhaps the best way to recover the debt is actually to collect taxes.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on March 30, 2011, 10:31:34 PM
I bet GE would RUN to China if we imposed a 90% rate on them. I'd be trying like hell to dodge that bullet, while still retaining as much of my income as possible. I'm sure a corporation with more lawyers than I have bad jokes would as well.

When WE ratified income taxes, WE made it as fair as possible. It was progressive. Everyone felt the burden. Somehow we are turning it into a criminal sentence. WE must PUNISH the rich/high income earners, BECAUSE! And then you wonder why they seek to change the system. Hello? There will always be greedy people, that's what the whole middle class is founded upon.

What I really don't understand is why and how all these attempted attacks upon the money of the wealthy always seems to actually come down to hit those less well off, like cigarette taxes, gas taxes, and even sales taxes.

Actually collecting taxes owed, what a novel suggestion! You better alert your congressman, I don't think they are up on that yet. Could it be due to the scofflaws are big campaign donors?

Also, was hearing on a business radio program, that there are a lot of businesses headquartered overseas to pay a lower tax. They get to do this by simply moving a trade secret, like the document for Colonel Sander's secret recipe for fried chicken, or Coke's secret formula. That's all there is to it, to go from 35% US rate to 12% Ireland rate on taxes. Surprised only 600-some corporations have done the deed.

So do we lower our top rate to repatriate businesses, or find some way to nail the bastards to the wall, and force them to come back, or else? And does the latter option cause American workers to be laid off? A mix of the two, or is there possibly a third way?

And we are not even to a Fair Tax, or a flat tax. Because I think the Fair Tax is too complex, and is more like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, as far as government bureaucracy i.e. IRS involvement. And the flat tax, is not what I would call fair and progressive.

I'd rather just have a very simple tax code. You ear, you pay. No deductions, no exemptions, no loopholes. No credits, no write-offs.

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on March 31, 2011, 04:15:22 AM
I'd rather just have a very simple tax code. You ear, you pay. No deductions, no exemptions, no loopholes. No credits, no write-offs.

That's a little extreme, there have to be exemptions in a few select cases, for instance for companies that research in alternate energy. You can't leave that kind of thing completely in the hands of the government.

Agreed that the tax code must be fixed though. Google's 2.4% tax rate still amazes me.
Obama said something about fixing the tax code, but looks like he's added it to his list of forgotten promises.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on March 31, 2011, 10:22:05 AM
I'd rather just have a very simple tax code. You ear, you pay. No deductions, no exemptions, no loopholes. No credits, no write-offs.

That's a little extreme, there have to be exemptions in a few select cases, for instance for companies that research in alternate energy. You can't leave that kind of thing completely in the hands of the government.

Agreed that the tax code must be fixed though. Google's 2.4% tax rate still amazes me.
Obama said something about fixing the tax code, but looks like he's added it to his list of forgotten promises.
you can work through things that arent tax codes to make it so they break even on tax bullshit, make anything they currently use as credits in other ways to refund people so it can be capped easier
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Airhawk on March 31, 2011, 03:49:49 PM
Every Country that has a budget like the US is doing it wrong. The fact that they spend ~50% of their stuff in defence is utter shit while 50% of the population lives in a Shack next the Missippi river. Instead of helping the people that really need it, they boast those who are already high up.
Neither Full Capitalism is good,
Neither Full Communism is good,

Find that balance. And if you fix that third world country called the USA, you might actually get that defence budget back up after that (if you like REAAAAALLLY want it)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: sdedalus83 on March 31, 2011, 04:20:54 PM
Every Country that has a budget like the US is doing it wrong. The fact that they spend ~50% of their stuff in defence is utter shit while 50% of the population lives in a Shack next the Missippi river. Instead of helping the people that really need it, they boast those who are already high up.
Neither Full Capitalism is good,
Neither Full Communism is good,

Find that balance. And if you fix that third world country called the USA, you might actually get that defence budget back up after that (if you like REAAAAALLLY want it)

Honestly, you'd provide far greater value to the human race by jumping off a cliff.  At least it would provide sadists like myself with some short-lived, but really high quality comedy.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Proin Drakenzol on March 31, 2011, 04:51:26 PM
Every Country that has a budget like the US is doing it wrong. The fact that they spend ~50% of their stuff in defence is utter shit while 50% of the population lives in a Shack next the Missippi river. Instead of helping the people that really need it, they boast those who are already high up.
Neither Full Capitalism is good,
Neither Full Communism is good,

Find that balance. And if you fix that third world country called the USA, you might actually get that defence budget back up after that (if you like REAAAAALLLY want it)


Less than 25% of fiscal year 2011's budget is allocated to defense.

13% - 17% of Americans earn below the Federal poverty line. Significantly less than half the US population lives next to the Mississippi river. So yeah.


You fail.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Airhawk on March 31, 2011, 08:00:50 PM
Honestly, you'd provide far greater value to the human race by jumping off a cliff.  At least it would provide sadists like myself with some short-lived, but really high quality comedy.

Is that seriously the best arguement you can come with?

The way i see it from across the ocean is a country which resembles an african nation in terms of wealth distribution. Instead of pumping a boatload of money in defence, you are better off moving that into development of people that actually need it. Whats the chance of a full scale war in this world, if it would happen either side would nuke the other to shit and the whole world goes down anyway. We dont need a nation like the US to play world-cops. Countries (like Libya) should fix their own problems themselves. The way the world meddles in with these situations only makes it worse on the long term.

edit: also umad xD


Less than 25% of fiscal year 2011's budget is allocated to defense.

13% - 17% of Americans earn below the Federal poverty line. Significantly less than half the US population lives next to the Mississippi river. So yeah.


You fail.

The fact that you took that Mississippi analogy serious only shows your failure.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Proin Drakenzol on March 31, 2011, 08:37:11 PM

Less than 25% of fiscal year 2011's budget is allocated to defense.

13% - 17% of Americans earn below the Federal poverty line. Significantly less than half the US population lives next to the Mississippi river. So yeah.


You fail.

The fact that you took that Mississippi analogy serious only shows your failure.

Yes, clearly I'm the one failing. After all, I should have realized that your ignorance only extended so far as to the percentage of the budget allocated to defense and not at all to the poverty percentage or location of people within the United States.

Or maybe you're just backtracking and claiming sarcasm ex post facto.

Yeah, I think I'll go with option two.

@all: where do these idiots keep coming from?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on April 01, 2011, 12:49:33 AM
I heard a figure today: 20% of this budget is interest payments of the federal debt. Not principal payments, interest only. woof.

My mother grew up on the banks of the Mississippi asswipe. She has a degree in art education, and was director all the Headstart programs in 5 counties crossing two states. Yeah, she's a bit of an intellectual snob.

I admit going to a no-deductions or credits would be extreme if it happened all at once. But once everyone got used to fewer and fewer deductions, credits, it would provide a more stable business environment. \

Deductions you only get pennies on the dollar in tax savings.

Credits are more like one to one, in savings. Sorry, not an accountant to guarantee that it is dollar for dollar. And those don't go for research.

Besides it is a business' shareholders who are controlling whether a company is doing more or less research and development, not so much current tax code. IN fact R&D has been going down for a couple of decades now. As an example, AT&T used to own Bell Labs. They discovered all kinds if things. Some of it even useful. They discovered what the temperature of the universe is, which would fall under, well that's nice.

But a while back it was decided that they didn't want to do so much R&D. So they spun off Bell Labs, and renamed it Lucent. I don't even know if they exist or not anymore. Trying to make an R&D unit a profitable concern was nuts. It was just a bunch of shareholders who wanted cash now, not later. Short term greed won out over long term profitability.

What I am trying to get at is it won't matter if a company has all kinds of tax breaks, if the shareholders want to be shown the money, well so much for R&D.

I would rather "see" Adam Smith's "invisible hand" at work, rather than have congressmen trying to pick winners. I don't think lawyers make good scientists, or businessmen. And yo can get experts to tell you anything you want to hear. I think a business fighting for its' very life will do a lot better job at finding a winner.

But we still need some investors who are willing to take a long view, instead of what we have now. More Warren Buffets, fewer Jim Kramers(sic?). Note: both are Democrats.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Proin Drakenzol on April 01, 2011, 01:14:20 AM
I would rather "see" Adam Smith's "invisible hand" at work, rather than have congressmen trying to pick winners. I don't think lawyers make good scientists, or businessmen. And yo can get experts to tell you anything you want to hear. I think a business fighting for its' very life will do a lot better job at finding a winner.



But Adam Smith hates your guts. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdamSmithHatesYourGuts)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Ixarku on April 01, 2011, 01:54:16 AM

But a while back it was decided that they didn't want to do so much R&D. So they spun off Bell Labs, and renamed it Lucent. I don't even know if they exist or not anymore. Trying to make an R&D unit a profitable concern was nuts. It was just a bunch of shareholders who wanted cash now, not later. Short term greed won out over long term profitability.

If I'm thinking of the same Lucent you're referring to, I don't think it exists as Lucent anymore, but don't take my word as gospel.  A friend of mine worked for Lucent for years as an electronics technician servicing machines that made semi-conductors.  They got spun off into another company called Agere, and Agere eventually shut down their facilities in our area, 6 or 7 years ago.  Sucks for my friend; he's never since been able to find as good a job in his field.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on April 01, 2011, 05:54:33 AM
Huh, I never equated Adam Smith as the butcher with his thumb on the scales. But that's just me, I guess, I don't see the butcher's thumb as even a part of the invisible hand. Hidden is not invisible.

And I suppose that is going to be so much more difficult in the future. WE seem to be losing our sense of ethics. I don't know if that's true or not. Maybe we just notice it more thanks to things like the Internet.

Or maybe we just have so many butcher's thumbs, that we need to add a few more thumbs from bureaucrats, to make sure that the butchers thumbs are at least not contaminated with E. coli. But that costs extra. WE can't trust anyone anymore, and just following a paper trail isn't going to be good enough. SO we need another cabinet level department, and all the staff and etc. that goes along with it. Should be able to do a good bang for the buck job at only a few billion per year.

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on April 01, 2011, 10:25:04 AM
Neither Full Capitalism is good,
Neither Full Communism is good,
Find that balance.
The US is neither of them. It's a mixed economy.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on April 01, 2011, 09:41:19 PM
I would rather "see" Adam Smith's "invisible hand" at work, rather than have congressmen trying to pick winners. I don't think lawyers make good scientists, or businessmen. And yo can get experts to tell you anything you want to hear. I think a business fighting for its' very life will do a lot better job at finding a winner.



But Adam Smith hates your guts. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdamSmithHatesYourGuts)

I always assumed the price of inns in small, rural villages in games like Dragon Quest increased in cost due to the lack of customers - after all if you're there in the first place you don't have the time or HP to cross the whole frickin' map just to pay a little less gold, and it's not like they'll be getting much in the way of customers otherwise. Though, I would agree that having celebrity for being the peoples who will save the world should warrant a discount.

None of this deals with the real riddle of capitalism, how do monsters get all that money? And why are people leaving their valuables in the middle of dungeons?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Gangster301 on April 06, 2011, 04:51:28 PM
Raise taxes. 30% tax increase is 150$ for people who make 30.000$ a year, and 55.000$ for people who make 1.000.000$. Results in 500B deficit reduction. Also increase tax on corporate income 30%. Then put a 25cent tax per ounce of alcohol and a 2cent tax on each ounce of sugar drinks. You are now 3 billion dollars in the clear.

If you want less tax increase for the poor: increase tax on alcohol to 50 cent per ounce(6B), cut the TSA budget(1-47B) or raise carbon tax(57-114B). Doing all three would allow you to only increase tax for 100.000-500.000$ by 20% & 500.000+ by 30%. (You can't cut the TSA budget by 47B, though... So increase taxes for 200.000-500.000 by 10% more & 75.000-100.000 by 5% more)

May not be well thought out in detail, but basically, tax the rich, and tax things like alcohol, tobacco and sugar drinks. Tax, then tax some more, then tax some more just to be safe.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on April 06, 2011, 07:52:13 PM
Also increase tax on corporate income 30%.

That would help boost China's economy.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on April 06, 2011, 08:32:59 PM
Also increase tax on corporate income 30%.

That would help boost China's economy.

Raise import tax by 30%  ;D
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: morrefule on April 07, 2011, 12:08:55 AM
The last thing we need to do is increase corporate taxes. That will discourage business's to expand here in the USA. Though increasing import taxes from china is not a bad idea. LoL what are they going to do dump the dollar and T-bonds. Then their currency will go to shit no matter how much currency manipulation they try and do
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on April 07, 2011, 01:57:10 AM
Quote
, but basically, tax the rich, and tax things like alcohol, tobacco and sugar drinks. Tax, then tax some more, then tax some more just to be safe.

Safe from what? Freedom?

Maybe we really don't need so much government. It doesn't work as well as it should, and costs far too much for what we do get. Mostly a bunch of NO, You Can't Do That and plenty of You Need to File the Proper Form Before We Will Even Think of Doing Anything, like help you, you miserable piece of shit.

Maybe what we ought to be doing is giving some people a bazillion bucks. But... we only let them have it for ten years. They can do whatever they want. But at the end of ten years, the last of the bazillion must go back. However, any money earned from investing any portion of the bazillion, you get to keep after the ten years. We should probably start with a bazillion people having a bazillion bucks.

This sounds as good to me as tax the shit out of everyone making more than minimum wage.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on April 07, 2011, 01:04:14 PM
I had a good laugh this morning, at the expensive of my wife's dog that was trying to sleep, thanks to NBC News. You see, in an attempt to become more of a "morning person" I drag my unhappy ass out of bed half an hour earlier and force myself to watch the news and eat breakfast. That experiment is failing, of course, as NBC is just as bad as any other news carrier. However, I like to stay somewhat informed, if not all the way.

Regardless, oftentimes when they're talking about the economy and all that rubbish, they bring on one conservative type, a liberal to fight him, and a moderate - typically a pretty woman I might add - to stand in the middle. I like this, I think it's more fair than most if not entirely fair. Usually, though, the conservative talks about Reaganomics, the liberal scoffs, and the moderate says (kindly) that the trickle-down effect isn't real.

Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on April 07, 2011, 01:45:18 PM
Anybody seen the GOP's new budget bill?
I think there's some good stuff in there (closing loopholes and lowering corporate tax rate to 25%) and some pretty bad stuff too (basically privatizing Medicare, lowering the top income bracket to 25%).
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on April 07, 2011, 03:27:43 PM
I've seen parts of it, I haven't given it a real review and I doubt I will. The thing will be voted down or vetoed. Even if it did pass, it would be reworked and rewritten to a shell of what it is. It's the Republican version of the Democrat healthcare reform - starting off grand but becoming something much less.

As for the actual website itself (remember the OP?) I've finally taken a look at it. I did some dramatic cutting, considering it's for the "2015" budget, I justify some of my slashes with the consideration there would be years of previous smaller cuts to end at the point.

In the first section, International Aid, I cut almost all of them in half - most dramatically the developmental assistance that was ~13b to 6b. Let the other nations of the UN pay for something.

After that I increased job training expense by 25% and maintained our contribution level to the UN missions specifically. After that I slightly decreased the funding for prisons and the like under the notion of the inevitable legalization of marijuana and made slight cuts to medical research, that can be funded privately.

Defense saw cuts, this will surprise many of you coming from me - though I believe it mostly "redirection". I would hope - HOPE - we are at least mostly out of Iraq and on our way out of Afghanistan by 2015, so the funds I left allocated there could more appropriately be described as going to the 601B turned to 450B budget for "regular operations". This is mostly due to the... trend... of working with EU nations on developing weapons. Hopefully, by 2015, we will see more joint ventures and less expense on our own part. Add in what's left in Iraq/Afghan fund and you see closer to 500B, slightly less than 20% cut.

A slight boost went to pollution control, specifically minded to the notion of increasing the R&D tax breaks involved with alternative energy and I cut all 16b allocated to land management. The land should be sold privately or left in the care of the states it's located in. Military land and facilities should be covered in the defense section.

Increases came again to funding elementary schooling, 30 to 35b, and doubling financial aid for college, 5 to 10b. The only reduction came in the "special needs" funding, 14b to 12b, as I personally don't feel half of the kids in "special needs" courses should be in them. See posts of mine of the education system for reasoning.

I left scientific funding, the state department, and the agricultural subsidies alone. After that, housing allocation for the elderly and the poor was cut, from 45 to 40b, another thing the states should handle themselves. Transportation of all kinds saw modest cuts, 2b each or so, also state responsibilities or - in the case of airports - the responsibilities of the airlines that own them. Vet benefits were increased slightly to encompass a slightly better GI bill and renewable energy was cut entirely, considering I made allocations for it elsewhere to a higher degree than the measly 3b specified for it.

It left me with a 374b deficit.

Tax increases of 5% on the second lowest and the 4 highest brackets were made and the carried interest tax was placed as well as the crisis fee to the largest banks. I imposed the higher carbon tax - though I disagree with the amount it would generate with the additional funding toward alternative energy and the knowledge that a tax would be made. I also opted to carry a 2.5% VAT, hopefully to help push the nation forward in my dream of abolishing income tax. I ended up with a 92.1b deficit, easily corrected (IMO) with the addition of tax brackets above the 500k individual (currently I believe there are 3, that could easily be 6) and the potential windfall of my corrections to social security as well as other notions in my head.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Gangster301 on April 07, 2011, 05:21:03 PM
Quote
, but basically, tax the rich, and tax things like alcohol, tobacco and sugar drinks. Tax, then tax some more, then tax some more just to be safe.

Safe from what? Freedom?

Maybe we really don't need so much government. It doesn't work as well as it should, and costs far too much for what we do get. Mostly a bunch of NO, You Can't Do That and plenty of You Need to File the Proper Form Before We Will Even Think of Doing Anything, like help you, you miserable piece of shit.

Maybe what we ought to be doing is giving some people a bazillion bucks. But... we only let them have it for ten years. They can do whatever they want. But at the end of ten years, the last of the bazillion must go back. However, any money earned from investing any portion of the bazillion, you get to keep after the ten years. We should probably start with a bazillion people having a bazillion bucks.

This sounds as good to me as tax the shit out of everyone making more than minimum wage.
You still have your freedom, drinking alcohol & sugar drinks and smoking just becomes more expensive. In Norway you're taxed 30% of your total if you make more than 7.000$ a year. A 30% increase in taxes in America means that if you make 1mill$+ you're only taxed 24% of your total, half of what you'd be taxed in Norway for the same pay. Like I said: for people making 30.000$ a 30% increase is only 150$ extra per year. So you still have 1/15 of our tax on small wages, 1/2 of our tax on high wages and 2/5 of our tax on alcohol. Not sure about sugar drinks & tobacco, I know that 10 cigarettes cost 13$ here, though.

And yes, I know that we have a much cheaper healthcare, and that we get a lot more from our government, but still, your taxes seem damn low, even with the increase. Sorry for talking so much about Norway, but, you know, it's the place I know most about.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on April 07, 2011, 05:34:27 PM
You still have your freedom, drinking alcohol & sugar drinks and smoking just becomes more expensive. In Norway you're taxed 30% of your total if you make more than 7.000$ a year. A 30% increase in taxes in America means that if you make 1mill$+ you're only taxed 24% of your total, half of what you'd be taxed in Norway for the same pay. Like I said: for people making 30.000$ a 30% increase is only 150$ extra per year. So you still have 1/15 of our tax on small wages, 1/2 of our tax on high wages and 2/5 of our tax on alcohol. Not sure about sugar drinks & tobacco, I know that 10 cigarettes cost 13$ here, though.

That is called social engineering and is against any idea of personal freedom. Taxes exists for the purpose of maintaining the government and a sovereign state. Extra taxes applied to things that are "bad for you" is social engineering and has little to do with upkeep of the sovereign state.

I am personally against any form of social engineering, it is true that it does not take you freedom away, it still punishes you if your choices are conflicting with what your government thinks is right.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on April 07, 2011, 05:52:19 PM
Government has to make money, Taxing alcohol and soft drinks isn't to "Punish evildoers" it's to make money because alcohol and soft drinks are bloody popular. Would you tax chocolate heavily if nobody wanted it? It's just good business sense tax popular shit to make more money; it juts so happens that things that are "bad for you" are in demand.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Scudworth on April 07, 2011, 05:55:06 PM
I just did this thing, came out with over 11 billion in my pocket.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on April 07, 2011, 06:37:49 PM
Government has to make money, Taxing alcohol and soft drinks isn't to "Punish evildoers" it's to make money because alcohol and soft drinks are bloody popular. Would you tax chocolate heavily if nobody wanted it? It's just good business sense tax popular shit to make more money; it juts so happens that things that are "bad for you" are in demand.

No, government has to live within their means - just like its citizens.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: flyawave on April 07, 2011, 06:48:36 PM
Government has to make money, Taxing alcohol and soft drinks isn't to "Punish evildoers" it's to make money because alcohol and soft drinks are bloody popular. Would you tax chocolate heavily if nobody wanted it? It's just good business sense tax popular shit to make more money; it juts so happens that things that are "bad for you" are in demand.

No, government has to live within their means - just like its citizens.

Hence why I'd cut the defense budget but look at all the hate that's getting
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: occasional on April 07, 2011, 07:25:45 PM
Extra taxes applied to things that are "bad for you" is social engineering and has little to do with upkeep of the sovereign state.
Problem is that sometimes those things end up costing the government a lot of money. Especially if the government takes over health care.


IMO it's possible to set a very low tax on such products, that will only really affect those who abuse them. So if you like to drink a glass of wine every day you won't notice any difference, if you like to drink a bottle of wine everyday, you end up shelling out some more cash. Same thing if you eat everyday at McDonalds (I mean 30% of Americans are obese, and it doesn't seem like people are getting the message. It can't be a pretty sight).
It creates some extra revenue and encourages people to live healthy lifestyles. Taxes don't necessarily have to be high or nothing.

And yes, I know that we have a much cheaper healthcare, and that we get a lot more from our government, but still, your taxes seem damn low, even with the increase. Sorry for talking so much about Norway, but, you know, it's the place I know most about.
Just got this off Wikipedia, and wow!
Quote
30% of the labour force are employed by the government, the highest in the OECD. 22% are on welfare and 13% are too disabled to work, the highest proportions in the world.
No wonder you like taxes so much.  ;D
Though that mentality is very extreme for the US and (I believe) a good number of European countries.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Gangster301 on April 07, 2011, 07:37:44 PM
Government has to make money, Taxing alcohol and soft drinks isn't to "Punish evildoers" it's to make money because alcohol and soft drinks are bloody popular. Would you tax chocolate heavily if nobody wanted it? It's just good business sense tax popular shit to make more money; it juts so happens that things that are "bad for you" are in demand.
It's not that it's bad for you! It's called luxury tax for a reason, and that's because you don't need it. Things like milk, fruit and bread have close to no tax, things like smokes, alcohol and chocolate have a very high tax. It's cheap to live, expensive to have something special.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on April 07, 2011, 08:00:05 PM
It's not that it's bad for you! It's called luxury tax for a reason, and that's because you don't need it. Things like milk, fruit and bread have close to no tax, things like smokes, alcohol and chocolate have a very high tax. It's cheap to live, expensive to have something special.

The Norwegian luxury tax is the biggest load of shit our country came up with. First of all, milk, fruit and bread are all taxed with 24% as value added tax. The only commodity in Norway that has no tax is books, that is a fact. Also cars are a taxed as "luxury" when majority of people need cars to get to work. Not to mention that outside the capital, public transportation is so scarce, that it is often not a viable alternative to having a car.

If the motive would be "something special", then all commodities under that designation would have equally high tax. Alcohol and tobacco however are higher than everything else because it is deemed as "unhealthy", so you are literally fined for consuming things that are bad for you.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Gangster301 on April 07, 2011, 09:17:13 PM
Also cars are a taxed as "luxury" when majority of people need cars to get to work. Not to mention that outside the capital, public transportation is so scarce, that it is often not a viable alternative to having a car.

If the motive would be "something special", then all commodities under that designation would have equally high tax. Alcohol and tobacco however are higher than everything else because it is deemed as "unhealthy", so you are literally fined for consuming things that are bad for you.
Only the most expensive cars have luxury tax, because you don't need an expensive car. It's true that Alcohol and tobacco are taxes more than other luxuries because they're bad for you, though, meaning you absolutely don't need them. But complaining about it just pathetic. Sure, you can talk about freedom and principles, but in reality it's more of a protection from overconsumption.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on April 07, 2011, 09:53:26 PM
Only the most expensive cars have luxury tax, because you don't need an expensive car.

Lol, "Årsavgift" is a renamed "luksusskatt", as far as I know, ALL cars need to pay årsavgift.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on April 07, 2011, 11:18:19 PM
Also cars are a taxed as "luxury" when majority of people need cars to get to work. Not to mention that outside the capital, public transportation is so scarce, that it is often not a viable alternative to having a car.

If the motive would be "something special", then all commodities under that designation would have equally high tax. Alcohol and tobacco however are higher than everything else because it is deemed as "unhealthy", so you are literally fined for consuming things that are bad for you.
Only the most expensive cars have luxury tax, because you don't need an expensive car. It's true that Alcohol and tobacco are taxes more than other luxuries because they're bad for you, though, meaning you absolutely don't need them. But complaining about it just pathetic. Sure, you can talk about freedom and principles, but in reality it's more of a protection from overconsumption.
no luxury tax is used quite liberally.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on April 08, 2011, 03:35:23 AM
Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.

What happens to Washington D.C. when the Government shuts down? I'm not entirely familiar with the American political system, but doesn't the Federal Government have jurisdiction over the area?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: sdedalus83 on April 08, 2011, 06:10:19 AM
Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.

What happens to Washington D.C. when the Government shuts down? I'm not entirely familiar with the American political system, but doesn't the Federal Government have jurisdiction over the area?

Technically, yes, but they tend to ignore it.  DC was never meant to be a city for people to reside in, so there's no real political structure.  We really need to assign the city to Maryland or Virginia and establish a local government.  Only the federal component of the city should be administered at the federal level.  It's incredibly embarrassing for the center of American politics to be the shittiest town in the country.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on April 08, 2011, 06:52:21 AM
Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.

What happens to Washington D.C. when the Government shuts down? I'm not entirely familiar with the American political system, but doesn't the Federal Government have jurisdiction over the area?

Technically, yes, but they tend to ignore it.  DC was never meant to be a city for people to reside in, so there's no real political structure.  We really need to assign the city to Maryland or Virginia and establish a local government.  Only the federal component of the city should be administered at the federal level.  It's incredibly embarrassing for the center of American politics to be the shittiest town in the country.

More shitty than Detroit?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: sdedalus83 on April 08, 2011, 10:39:32 AM
Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.

What happens to Washington D.C. when the Government shuts down? I'm not entirely familiar with the American political system, but doesn't the Federal Government have jurisdiction over the area?

Technically, yes, but they tend to ignore it.  DC was never meant to be a city for people to reside in, so there's no real political structure.  We really need to assign the city to Maryland or Virginia and establish a local government.  Only the federal component of the city should be administered at the federal level.  It's incredibly embarrassing for the center of American politics to be the shittiest town in the country.

More shitty than Detroit?

That was hyperbole, but about 15 years ago it was true.  Detroit and New Orleans are certainly worse now.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Gangster301 on April 08, 2011, 12:36:04 PM
Only the most expensive cars have luxury tax, because you don't need an expensive car.

Lol, "Årsavgift" is a renamed "luksusskatt", as far as I know, ALL cars need to pay årsavgift.
"Årsavgift" is to cover the damages you do when you use the car, "luksusskatt"(only on the expensive cars) is because it's unnecessary.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on April 08, 2011, 02:14:42 PM
Yet, this morning, all they could talk about was the nightmare about to fall upon our blessed city (Washington D.C.) as the possibility of the government shutting down tomorrow looms. With no government workers to come to the city for an unknown amount of time - the lack of trickle down cashflow from the rich that would usually spend their money to boost the city's economy could be devastating!

Imagine that. The poor fear even the thought of the rich not being there with their buckets of money.

What happens to Washington D.C. when the Government shuts down? I'm not entirely familiar with the American political system, but doesn't the Federal Government have jurisdiction over the area?

Non-essential services will be shut down, which won't be so bad in itself. I plan on parking right next to the cherry blossoms on Monday if they are shut down - as the D.C. Parking Authority will be furloughed. A lovely picnic - a shame the museums won't be open.

The larger issue is that the 800,000+ workers that will be furloughed won't be purchasing lunches or anything else from the shops in the city or the surrounding area. If it happens and continues on for any extended period of time - well, those shops will go out of business. Rent is f'ing expensive here because of all the rich and those shopkeeps probably won't be able to pay it.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on April 08, 2011, 02:17:31 PM
Can anyone imagine what it must have been like to operate a federal government, when all there was for taxes to fund everything was tariffs and excise taxes? We fought a Civil War, and later kicked Spain's butt with that kind of money. We did have the income tax for WWI, right?

Of course we didn't have EPA, Dept. of Energy, I don't think we had the Department of Education. No Social Security, which was a Ponzi scheme to bring in much wanted revenue to fund all the new depression era programs. No NASA, no Pentagon, no CIA.

 NO foreign bases. The military was bare bones, just enough to be able to train new recruits for any upcoming wars basically. A navy that could project force around the world eventually, but not like it was loaded with Battleships or Carriers. What's a carrier back then anyway. One with pigeons? What's an airplane?

Do we really need everything that we have today? And just because something exists, does that mean we are getting the best use of the money from it? AS an example, does the Department of Education ensure our kids are educated? Does it certify a set standard that all kids must be able to accomplish? Does it do more than throw regulations and money at states?

Or NASA, is it a basic research operation until private concerns can take up the load and explore, and make a profit? Or is it the only way we will ever get off this mudball, forever?

Numbers don't mean anything without context. Cuts, increases, so what? Is this the best we can do? We have to stop thinking we are like Italians, and government spending is like all those old Italian buildings that cannot be torn down, when you need a new building.

I doubt a shut down will last all that long. Just long enough to eat profits, not force businesses into bankruptcy, unless they were sucking wind anyway.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Cuan on April 08, 2011, 05:11:04 PM
So… close to a million federal workers won't be paid a cent of their salary, but I heard the Representatives still get their compensation? How about turning this all around by 180 degrees? ::)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Tiffanys on August 01, 2011, 05:44:33 PM
Here's my 1st go at it:
(http://i.min.us/ijocvU.png)

And that's with maintaining over 400b in military, raising science and medicine funding, raising medicare benefits, not cutting education, and some other stuff... Figures below...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Sosseres on August 01, 2011, 06:01:38 PM
Yes that is strange. Why isn't select tariffs a portion of this (anything manufactured, not raw materials)?

$38.8 B Deficit using that site, which isn't an issue due to inflation.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Tiffanys on August 01, 2011, 06:28:13 PM
Here's my second attempt...

Budget deficit for 2015: $-603.7B
Long-term SS deficit solved: 100%

Choices: http://min.us/mcIpRgJ (http://min.us/mcIpRgJ)

I should have a much better one this next time around.

edit:

Attempt #3...

Budget deficit for 2015: $-196.8 B
Long-term SS deficit solved: 100%

Choices: http://min.us/mem9Ewx

That one was pretty good I think... except snuffing vets. But I don't really think vets need special treatment like housing loans or education. Medical, yeah... but, this doesn't let me separate those things.

There were pretty massive changes across the board, and military spending even actually went up. All of our research went way, way up, and education would be practically free for everyone, and much better funded.

Elementary/secondary education: 30 -> 60 B
Higher education (aid for college): 5 -> 50 B

I cut down on international aid, cause... well, fuck other countries. We have our own problems to deal with first.

Renewable energy research: 3 -> 30 B
Medical research: 36  -> 75 B
Scientific research: 17 > 50 B

In transportation...
Mass transit: 14>15
Highways: 54>60
Air/rails: 27>28

Homeland Security went up from 47 to 50 B. And in Defense...

Regular operations: 601 > 605
Nuke development: 11 > 20
Afgan/Iraq: 50 > 0 (Yeah. We're pulling out.)

Space program... 19 B to 1 B... Honestly, we have problems here on Earth before we need to worry about space.

etc...

I like my changes overall.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Sosseres on August 01, 2011, 07:51:37 PM
Renewable energy research: 3 -> 30 B
Medical research: 36  -> 75 B
Scientific research: 17 > 50 B

Space program... 19 B to 1 B... Honestly, we have problems here on Earth before we need to worry about space.

Those feels strange to me. I would cut scientific to fund NASA myself.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Tiffanys on August 01, 2011, 08:51:32 PM
Renewable energy research: 3 -> 30 B
Medical research: 36  -> 75 B
Scientific research: 17 > 50 B

Space program... 19 B to 1 B... Honestly, we have problems here on Earth before we need to worry about space.

Those feels strange to me. I would cut scientific to fund NASA myself.

With a surplus of $196.8 B, cutting Science would not be necessary.

Also, interestingly... just with some tax increases and no other changes whatsoever, we can get the deficit into a surplus...

(click to show/hide)

Of course, this route is just for show... Obviously that won't work very well with the carbon tax unless we also invest in renewable energy, but if we, say, cut the war in Afgan/Iraq off entirely, there's $50B free that we can put into that research.

So easy...

Of course... I'd be bitching about the tax increase, but... there's no reason the wealthy should live so comfortably when others in the country are suffering. We can make some sacrifices so the middle and lower classes have it easier.

But still... Even doing that, I think I'd probably cut military spending by about $50B or so, and split it into medical and science research.

Not as pretty as my attempt above, but... I think that would go a great way to improving our country without anything too incredibly sweeping. And investing $50B into renewable energy... we would quickly become the world leader in renewable energy, and once we come up with a great solution (which would be inevitable pumping in that much money), then we'd look to make a great deal of money selling it to other countries as well.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 02, 2011, 12:29:31 AM
Yo Tiff, just surrender now, because you are not going to get anyone to join your piece of shit military with those benefits for having some asshole shooting at us.

But it's amazing how similar to Jimmy Carter your response was.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on August 02, 2011, 12:57:53 AM
Renewable energy research: 3 -> 30 B
Medical research: 36  -> 75 B
Scientific research: 17 > 50 B

Space program... 19 B to 1 B... Honestly, we have problems here on Earth before we need to worry about space.

Those feels strange to me. I would cut scientific to fund NASA myself.

With a surplus of $196.8 B, cutting Science would not be necessary.

Also, interestingly... just with some tax increases and no other changes whatsoever, we can get the deficit into a surplus...

(click to show/hide)

Of course, this route is just for show... Obviously that won't work very well with the carbon tax unless we also invest in renewable energy, but if we, say, cut the war in Afgan/Iraq off entirely, there's $50B free that we can put into that research.

So easy...

Of course... I'd be bitching about the tax increase, but... there's no reason the wealthy should live so comfortably when others in the country are suffering. We can make some sacrifices so the middle and lower classes have it easier.

But still... Even doing that, I think I'd probably cut military spending by about $50B or so, and split it into medical and science research.

Not as pretty as my attempt above, but... I think that would go a great way to improving our country without anything too incredibly sweeping. And investing $50B into renewable energy... we would quickly become the world leader in renewable energy, and once we come up with a great solution (which would be inevitable pumping in that much money), then we'd look to make a great deal of money selling it to other countries as well.
not to mention instead of cutting spending you just obscenely increased taxing of slightly wealthy and wealthy individuals and businesses, and caused a flat nationwide sales tax in addition to taxing half the shit people buy already.

If you dont see a problem with just take more money from the people then something is a bit off in your logic
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 02, 2011, 02:50:43 AM
then we'd look to make a great deal of money selling it to other countries as well.
For that you will have to compete with Canadians who has some of the cheapest renewable energy (mainly hydro). But at least you will no longer import billions in fossil fuel. That's a fuck load of cash going out of your economy.

BTW, happy to see you back Tiffanys. It's been a long time.

@jaybug you think people are joining the military just for the benefit? Look at the size of your army and look at everyone else. Less soldier isn't a big problem.

@mgz If you look at wealth repartition in USA, I don't think rising taxes for the richest will make them miserable anytime soon.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on August 02, 2011, 11:31:51 AM
then we'd look to make a great deal of money selling it to other countries as well.
For that you will have to compete with Canadians who has some of the cheapest renewable energy (mainly hydro). But at least you will no longer import billions in fossil fuel. That's a fuck load of cash going out of your economy.

BTW, happy to see you back Tiffanys. It's been a long time.

@jaybug you think people are joining the military just for the benefit? Look at the size of your army and look at everyone else. Less soldier isn't a big problem.

@mgz If you look at wealth repartition in USA, I don't think rising taxes for the richest will make them miserable anytime soon.

Less soldiers + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: AceHigh on August 02, 2011, 11:46:23 AM
Yo Tiff, just surrender now, because you are not going to get anyone to join your piece of shit military with those benefits for having some asshole shooting at us.

But it's amazing how similar to Jimmy Carter your response was.

Real men live in a country with conscription!  ;D

Israel tops other countries for being manly as fuck, because they conscript women as well.

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 02, 2011, 02:10:07 PM
Real men join anyway, even if no conscription. Like me.

Quote
Israel tops other countries for being manly as fuck, because they conscript women as well.

Can you say that without adding, "and the sheep run scared."?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on August 02, 2011, 02:36:32 PM
Less soldiers + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).

I was thinking this as well, cutting public spending means less circulation of capital inevitably. All social policy is a web of intricate cause/effect relationships which aren't obvious or immediately considered by simply looking at the issue as though it were a personal or family budget. It's similar to epidemiology in that regard, actually.

Real men join anyway, even if no conscription. Like me.

I personally prefer unrepentant cowards. Though, I suppose if you really need Real Men there are always Gay Pride parades.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 02, 2011, 10:00:31 PM
How can you stand anime if you actually prefer unrepentant cowards? lol

You need to make it "real men" Because the womyn in those are myn too. And they have a package bigger than any man of woman born.

I almost called in to a talk radio program today. I heard another stupid caller and I wanted to bitch slap him on air, as I couldn't hit him in person. He was ranting about how the government should make a 10% cut in all agencies.

At least the host corrected him by suggesting that we need to make it a 40% "cut" just to get a balanced budget.

From, the ridiculous to the slime.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 03, 2011, 01:45:27 AM
Less soldiers* + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies** = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).
*Spending almost anywhere inside the country is gonna create jobs. There is no reason for it to be in the military specifically. Once again, republican BS

**That's republican BS. Try do demonstrate that without slippery slope.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 03, 2011, 04:09:42 AM
Less soldiers* + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies** = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).
*Spending almost anywhere inside the country is gonna create jobs. There is no reason for it to be in the military specifically. Once again, republican BS

**That's republican BS. Try do demonstrate that without slippery slope.

Burk, if that was true, would we still have over 9% unemployment two years after the Great Recession ended? And the stimulus package finally coughed up the cash sometime last year?

Everyone needs to stop thinking of all the various federal bureaus and agencies etc. as monolithic. I think the analogy would be a monolith made of wrist watches, the kind that has a whole shitload of moving parts.

Had this thought today. Does anyone at home make a 10% across the board cut when times get tough? Do you cut 10% on food, clothing, gas, utilities? Or do you cut out going to movies, buying anime/manga, drive through coffee? You cut out the luxuries first right?

Now, tell me that everything in the federall budget is a necessity and not a luxury.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 03, 2011, 04:14:07 AM
^I agree, 3/4 of your military spending is pure waste. I don't see how your intervention contradict what I say in any way.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on August 03, 2011, 01:29:14 PM
Less soldiers* + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies** = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).
*Spending almost anywhere inside the country is gonna create jobs. There is no reason for it to be in the military specifically. Once again, republican BS

**That's republican BS. Try do demonstrate that without slippery slope.

Try using your own head for a change and see where that gets you. Say you're rich and own a large company and you're smart with your money. You have a set percentage of what you're willing to put into your company and what you're planning on investing personally. Let's say you're generous and it's a 75-25 split, just for argument's sake. I mean, you want to keep gaining customers, don't you?

Your taxes increase, significantly - what are you going to do?

You have to determine where to make your own cuts to keep your business and yourself afloat. You can either lower the quality of your product - if you are a producer of goods - or let employees go. You're letting employees go.

I can't point to a recent time in history that it's happened because, well, there hasn't been a recent time in history that corporate and high income taxes have been increased. However, it's not "Republican" logic - it's normal human thinking. You should give it a shot and put yourself in that situation.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on August 03, 2011, 02:03:15 PM
One could point out that the Chicago school of economics has uniformly proven itself a solipsistic construct for the extremely wealthy which merely shifts wealth to the top while decreasing the general quality of life for the majority of people.

One could also point out that America has experienced greater economic prosperity and instances of social mobility when taxes have been - well  - significantly higher on the wealthiest percentile.

One only need glance at the cosmic ineffectiveness of the Bush tax cuts in stimulated economic growth or in promoting general prosperity beyond that of an extremely small but excessively influential minority as compared to just a decade before to have some insight in the false salvation of the apparent Republican religion of "tax relief" for "job creators".

Furthermore, I must point out, that even with only a slighter heavier tax burden, many in the industrialized world have a reasonably higher standard of living than that of the United States - as far as these things can be judged.

The insistence that the wealthy are unduly burdened by the current American tax system, as it stands, is akin to saying the pharaohs of Egypt were clearly deprived because their pyramids were not constructed of solid gold.

-------

I think the point being that the only clear trajectory of lower taxes in a society is the ones who most depend on a functioning and funded government are disproportionately affected - the economic common sense among the wealthy appears to be to pocket the extra cash for posterity sake.     
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 03, 2011, 04:59:45 PM
Less soldiers* + higher taxes on the wealthy who own companies** = larger unemployment. I liked the little java game for what it was but it certainly didn't encompass everything (not that it possibly could).
*Spending almost anywhere inside the country is gonna create jobs. There is no reason for it to be in the military specifically. Once again, republican BS

**That's republican BS. Try do demonstrate that without slippery slope.

Try using your own head for a change and see where that gets you. Say you're rich and own a large company and you're smart with your money. You have a set percentage of what you're willing to put into your company and what you're planning on investing personally. Let's say you're generous and it's a 75-25 split, just for argument's sake. I mean, you want to keep gaining customers, don't you?

Your taxes increase, significantly - what are you going to do?

You have to determine where to make your own cuts to keep your business and yourself afloat. You can either lower the quality of your product - if you are a producer of goods - or let employees go. You're letting employees go.

I can't point to a recent time in history that it's happened because, well, there hasn't been a recent time in history that corporate and high income taxes have been increased. However, it's not "Republican" logic - it's normal human thinking. You should give it a shot and put yourself in that situation.
We were talking about taxing the richest I think, not the companies. What will be reduced is a percentage of their personal revenue, not their revenue. So the 10% of population owning 71% of the country will make a little bit less. They are not gonna loose money, just make less of it. Yea sure, totally the best reason to lay out people! No actually it's Republican BS.

Lets use an example so that you undestand the difference.

Company A is owned by bob
A's revenue $10,000,000
A's Spending $9,000,000
$400,000 is kept in the company for future spending
Bob receive $600,000 of Dividend

So according to you, 10% taxes represent 10,000,000*10%=1,000,000$ which would make the company no longer profitable
but actually, 10% taxes is 600,000*10=60,000$.
You see a reason to lay out people? not me. On the contrary, it might be a better idea to lower the money spent in dividend for now and reinvest it in the company for when their will be a taxe cut.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 04, 2011, 12:31:51 AM
Nik, I can't believe what you say. You been watching Harold and Kumarr movies, again?

Burk, gawd, please take some accounting classes, so that I can at least show you where you went wrong. Because you example went belly up.  Is Bob's company a sole proprietor ship, an S-corporation, a C-corporation, a joint venture, a Limited Liability Partnership? The taxes paid will all be different depending upon your answer.

Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 04, 2011, 01:55:57 AM
Nik, I can't believe what you say. You been watching Harold and Kumarr movies, again?

Burk, gawd, please take some accounting classes, so that I can at least show you where you went wrong. Because you example went belly up.  Is Bob's company a sole proprietor ship, an S-corporation, a C-corporation, a joint venture, a Limited Liability Partnership? The taxes paid will all be different depending upon your answer.
Doesn't Mather. That was just a generic example. In any cases, taxes are based on the companies profit, not its revenue. Taxing the personal income of the richest will not suddenly change a profit to a deficit.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 04, 2011, 02:43:41 AM
But sole proprietors are taxed as if the company and the individual were one entity. Corporate rates and individual rates are not always the same. Nor are their loopholes.

But yes, that's what EBITDA means, in part.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on August 04, 2011, 04:17:58 PM
How ridiculously simple. Let's take a real practical look and cover the things you didn't.

First, let's use Bob and his company 'A'. A is a massive producer of rubber gaskets. For simplicity sake, let's say it costs 'A' 2c in raw materials for a pack of 5 gaskets and 'A' manufacturers 100 million gaskets a year. In raw materials alone that bill comes out to $2m.

No big deal, though, since we're selling those 5-packs for a dollar each to retail stores. That 2m seems like NOTHING when compared to the 100m we just made, right?

Except, that 100m is taxable income for the company. What's the corporate tax rate for a company with 98m in taxable profit? 35% is the answer. So we lost 35m right off the bat to taxes on top of the 2m in raw materials. That's cool, though, because 'A' still has a cool 63m in gross. What's next? Oh, state taxes? Well we set up in Delaware - one of the lowest in the country for tax rates on businesses - and it's a cool 8.7%. Let's go ahead and round that up to 9 for simplicity sake. Another 9m gone.

So, in corporate taxes and raw materials alone, 'A' has gone from 100m to 54m.

'A' has a few locations around the country - let's say 3. 1 production plant and 2 customer service offices. 'A' has to pay property taxes on all 3 of them. Let's just call the property taxes on the 3 buildings 1m a year with the largest chunk being the production plant. We're down to 53m.

What about the cost of doing business? We have to buy stationary, staples, mandatory random repairs and replacements of things like desks and computers, as well as pay the utilities in all 3 buildings. Let's also call that a cool mil (though I'm probably short changing significantly and this will vary year to year). 52m.

'A' proudly employs 100 people. We're not that big but big enough. That includes customer service reps to answer angry phone calls, secretaries to handle the day-to-day, a couple of lawyers to handle law suits and audits, a couple of engineers to look over the plant and make sure things run smoothly, and the various other positions I can't think to list. On average, they're taking 75k a year - each. Remember, lawyers are expensive and so are engineers so they're boosting the pile. 100 workers at 75k each comes out to another 7.5m. This time we'll round down to 7m since we rounded up before. Now we're at 45m.

BUT WAIT! We have to provide healthcare to our employees and pay for most of it. All my google searches have shown me it's about 9.5k per employee per year on average. That comes up to 950k, let's call it a mil. 44m. We've also got to pay the payroll taxes which will vary from 10-15% (from all I've found) of our total expense on payroll. That's about another million and we're down to 43m.

Now let's say that once a month we find ourselves in a bit of legal trouble because some jackass didn't know what he was doing and hurt himself working on an engine of some sort and blamed it on gasket failure. We settle all of those cases out of court for an average of 500k each (in payments and additional legal fees). That's another 6m gone and we're at 37m.

The company also offers a 401k plan for all of its employees and it puts in a pretty standard 5% of their salaries a year while matching their additional contributions by 100%. Once again, let's round up to a million or so. 36m.

So, with just the mandatory minimum expenses paid, we're at 36m from 100m. That includes NO expansion, NO company sponsored events, NO company owned vehicles... nothing special at all. 'A' is the most basic of basic companies in the world. Bob now has 36m to play with. How much does he pay himself and how much does he invest in the company and/or the company's stocks?

Well, judging by how Bob doesn't do any company events or anything we're going to call him a greedy little bastard. Greedy, sure, but also not an idiot. He's going to make sure that his little cash cow keeps feeding him every year for the rest of his life and hopefully the lives of his children. He puts a quarter of it into a company savings account every year in case of emergencies (that we didn't see this year) as well as a regular increase in pay to his employees (which will also cause an increase in his payroll taxes, etc.). He puts another quarter of it into the various investment accounts he has set up for the company. The remaining 50% he takes for himself - that bastard - and pulled in a salary of 18m. Score!

That's another 2m paid in payroll tax - but from the company's money (that bastard!). Bob now has to pay his own income taxes, bummer. So, for the fed he's looking at 110k + 35% of the excess over ~350k. That's about 6.5m in federal income taxes. Fortunately for Bob, he lives in Virginia which has one of the lowest income tax rates for people of extreme wealth - a mere 6% - which comes out to another million or so. So, this year at least, Bob Paid some $7.5m in personal income taxes at one of the lowest income tax rates in the country and his 18m becomes 10.5m.

Bob took home about 10% of his company's total "profits". Let's also not forget his company is "based" at the lowest of all corporate tax rates as well. Bob, the creator and owner of 'A', essentially pays 50 million dollars a year in income/corporate taxes.

Of course, since you're not Bob and you didn't take the risk and make the investment in creating a company, your opinion is "what's another couple of million from his pocket". Despite the fact that the top - what, 5%? - already pay 95% of all federal personal income taxes and our federal corporate taxes are the highest in the developed world - bar none. I'm not even sure I wrote them down right, that's how high they are.

If Bob is determined to have 10m a year - he will have it. Increase his taxes and he'll take it from the company and that means laying off people.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Sosseres on August 04, 2011, 05:35:06 PM
You need insurance as well. Those are one of the reasons ISO certificates exist for companies.

I also agree that it is better to tax at the personal than at the corporate level. The corporations will just use any and all loopholes, they even pay people to find/implement them.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Saras on August 04, 2011, 06:14:17 PM
Kill the defense budget to 100 bil, increase the nuke budget to 100 bil and increase the foreign "we help you, you help us" budget to 300 bil.

If America did that, you'd lower the defence costs by 200 bil. and you'd probably gain both influence and be in a position were people actually like you. Not like fighting a contemporary war against anyone that actually required that level of r&d would essentially be two nations going to kingdom come.

Do you really need 500 mil planes to fight 3rd and 2nd world countries? Fuck it, Get five thousand 50 year old cessnas, put some C4 on it and just radio control zerg rush the target. Would cost less than two or three of these here raptors and be a lot more effective and fun. Plus, you'd recycle old cargo, the green guys would love you for it.

Oh right, legalize pot and by doing that you could cut out your border patrols, anti-drug missions in columbia, reduce your prisoner count by like 60%, that shit would probably net you the other 300 bil.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 05, 2011, 04:06:49 AM
I guess Bob's A Business leased the building, otherwise they would have written off BUilding Depreciation, at the least. Which actually was under accelerated rates the past couple of years. More!!! Loopholes!!! lol WOnder if Bob bought any capital equipment? loophole. Did the compnay give to charity, like having a Day of Service where all the company em[ployees went and did something for a local charity, like paint the building the charity is in.

But don't forget to add that however much you spend to avoid loopholes, it's always greater than the tax you avoid having to pay. So why some people defend loopholes so vehemently, I don't quite understand.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 05, 2011, 05:28:21 AM
@vicious796 That's BS. Company A has employees because they all contribute to its profit in a way or another. Bob is gonna lay off a useless employee whether he has to pay taxes or not. Thanks for providing us a typical example of a slippery slope.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: vicious796 on August 05, 2011, 11:17:07 AM
@vicious796 That's BS. Company A has employees because they all contribute to its profit in a way or another. Bob is gonna lay off a useless employee whether he has to pay taxes or not. Thanks for providing us a typical example of a slippery slope.

At no point did I have any slippery slope. I could have and reduced his personal profit more but I didn't. Does he need to have 100 employees - most of which customer service? Of course not. He's also unlikely to sell gaskets that cost him 2c per 5 pack for an entire dollar as a wholesale distributor. Really, his profits would be much less but I overemphasized to round out numbers and make it mental math.

All my figures were done with real tax code numbers and I'm sure I left out a ton. Just because you can't accept that the rich who are rich because they own their own businesses and that they, effectively, are taxed 3 times when the average American is taxed once doesn't make it not true. There was nothing "slippery" in my post at all. Those numbers are factual and you can't argue with simple math.


At least you didn't have the balls to claim he didn't even deserve his 10m.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 05, 2011, 01:30:08 PM
Profit margins, the number that you have after subtracting all expenses. One type of business with among the highest of profit margins is the Hot Dog cart. It can have a number as high as 30. FOr every dollar, the proprietor has 30 cents. TO be shared with Uncle Sam later. Wal-Mart has a GP number of about 3. Proving quantity has a quality all its own.

Good luck on Bob having a company with a profit margin of anywhere near 30. Not while he is anything but a sole proprietor, and has anything like a lease or land. He's going to be a lot closer to the 3 number.

Plus, unless gaskets suddenly sprouted a whole host of new regulations, and with this administration, it's possible, there will be a horde of competition, creating downward pressure on gasket prices. Bob won't be able to charge what ever he wants, unless he has a niche market in a small market wherein he is either the sole provider, or one of a small number of providers, like freakin' Eugene! Another reason to hate this fuckin' place, not enough competition to keep prices down. INcresed regulation stifles new competitors from entering the market, leaving an oligopoly, or monopoly to provide for the market.

You end up with the same dangers of monoculture agriculture. Should anything go wrong, it will go wrong catastrophically, if you force the market into few competitors, with too much regulation. That and only the lawyers will win, everyone else loses.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 05, 2011, 05:35:42 PM
@jaybug I agree. Stupid laws and fucking lawyers is a big problem in USA and elsewhere. The government who can find a practical solution to this problem would probably fix the deficit at the same time.

@vicious796 I never said that rich peoples are bastard or that they don't deserve anything although I do think that they owe their success partly to the society they live in and so contributing to it through taxation is justified. But what is sure is that taxing rich people will have a less harmful effect over their quality of life than taxing the poor, while giving a lot more money back. 71% of the country is owned by 10% of the population after all. But I'm not saying the "burn all the riches , we are poor because they are rich" BS. Business is business. There is nothing wrong with making money. But the government need money and it just so happen that the easiest way to get it is by taxing people who have money (I feel like Captain Obvious saying that). Sure, they can cut at a few place. Cutting the military budget alone, to a reasonable level (say to about 150 billions) could solve most of the problem.

As for your scenario I have already stated the problem, if an employee doesn't contribute to the companies profit in some way, he is gonna be fired whether the owner pay taxes or not. Your idea the a rich men who pay to much taxes will just go on a rampage an fire peoples randomly is completely ridiculous. If Bob has a brain, he will fire useless employees. That's not evil. He is just doing his job. Nothing to do with making 7 millions instead of 10.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: mgz on August 05, 2011, 07:10:23 PM
@jaybug I agree. Stupid laws and fucking lawyers is a big problem in USA and elsewhere. The government who can find a practical solution to this problem would probably fix the deficit at the same time.

@vicious796 I never said that rich peoples are bastard or that they don't deserve anything although I do think that they owe their success partly to the society they live in and so contributing to it through taxation is justified. But what is sure is that taxing rich people will have a less harmful effect over their quality of life than taxing the poor, while giving a lot more money back. 71% of the country is owned by 10% of the population after all. But I'm not saying the "burn all the riches , we are poor because they are rich" BS. Business is business. There is nothing wrong with making money. But the government need money and it just so happen that the easiest way to get it is by taxing people who have money (I feel like Captain Obvious saying that). Sure, they can cut at a few place. Cutting the military budget alone, to a reasonable level (say to about 150 billions) could solve most of the problem.

As for your scenario I have already stated the problem, if an employee doesn't contribute to the companies profit in some way, he is gonna be fired whether the owner pay taxes or not. Your idea the a rich men who pay to much taxes will just go on a rampage an fire peoples randomly is completely ridiculous. If Bob has a brain, he will fire useless employees. That's not evil. He is just doing his job. Nothing to do with making 7 millions instead of 10.
however why should we burden the citizens of the country further when we arent fixing the problems that are causing the deficit. There have been times in history when there wasnt a huge amount of deficit all of the times where when there was less tax money to go around.

Moral of the story is address the issues instead of just squeezing more blood from the rock
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 05, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
@jaybug I agree. Stupid laws and fucking lawyers is a big problem in USA and elsewhere. The government who can find a practical solution to this problem would probably fix the deficit at the same time.

@vicious796 I never said that rich peoples are bastard or that they don't deserve anything although I do think that they owe their success partly to the society they live in and so contributing to it through taxation is justified. But what is sure is that taxing rich people will have a less harmful effect over their quality of life than taxing the poor, while giving a lot more money back. 71% of the country is owned by 10% of the population after all. But I'm not saying the "burn all the riches , we are poor because they are rich" BS. Business is business. There is nothing wrong with making money. But the government need money and it just so happen that the easiest way to get it is by taxing people who have money (I feel like Captain Obvious saying that). Sure, they can cut at a few place. Cutting the military budget alone, to a reasonable level (say to about 150 billions) could solve most of the problem.

As for your scenario I have already stated the problem, if an employee doesn't contribute to the companies profit in some way, he is gonna be fired whether the owner pay taxes or not. Your idea the a rich men who pay to much taxes will just go on a rampage an fire peoples randomly is completely ridiculous. If Bob has a brain, he will fire useless employees. That's not evil. He is just doing his job. Nothing to do with making 7 millions instead of 10.
however why should we burden the citizens of the country further when we arent fixing the problems that are causing the deficit. There have been times in history when there wasnt a huge amount of deficit all of the times where when there was less tax money to go around.

Moral of the story is address the issues instead of just squeezing more blood from the rock
Squeezing more blood from the rock is one way to address the issues. A deficit is when the revenue is less than the expense. Reducing the expense is not necessarily better or worst than raising the revenue depending of the context. If you think it's better right now, please give some arguments. Saying it's obviously better because that's what we have done at some point of history isn't gonna convince me. You are just trying to appeal to tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition). Beside, the most efficient way to fix the problem would be to do both: to raise taxes AND reduce expenses. On what ground should do you say that the deficit most be solved with cuts alone?
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Nikkoru on August 05, 2011, 08:27:56 PM
Moral of the story is address the issues instead of just squeezing more blood from the rock

Perhaps, if the rock in question were a flawless blue diamond the size of a chimps head.

-- and to the world in general --

Honestly, wealth is so staggeringly accumulated that it could make the courtiers to the Sun King blush and yet average people of wholly underwhelming means protect the grossly opulent with the fierceness of a mother grizzly protecting her cubs under some mad gibberish about freedom and the evils of socialism even as both their freedom and their democracy erodes underneath them as wealth becomes the sole source of political power in the world.

Responsibility, financial or otherwise is important there is no doubt, reasonable taxation is as much part of this as logical spending.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Burkingam on August 05, 2011, 08:52:18 PM
BTW, I don't know of any solution to this problem but lawyers really are ruining us all. Fucking lawyers. (http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8519901309/bethesda-are-suing-us-heres-the-full-story)
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 05, 2011, 11:30:52 PM
The federal government today is about twice the sizxe it was when Clinton was president. Is this necessary? How is that increase in bureaucracy helping the poor? How many bureaucrats does it take to send a check? Electronically???
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: Sosseres on August 06, 2011, 04:24:59 AM
The federal government today is about twice the sizxe it was when Clinton was president. Is this necessary? How is that increase in bureaucracy helping the poor? How many bureaucrats does it take to send a check? Electronically???

That is strange, productivity per employee has gone up during that time period due to better software and people getting better at using them. So it is like tripling the bureaucracy.
Title: Re: YOU try to balance the US budget with this website!
Post by: jaybug on August 06, 2011, 01:31:03 PM
I don't know if productivity has ever been measured of government workers. As far as I know, all measures of worker productivity has only included private sector employees. If the federal government is anything like the state university I work for, it's amazingly...retro, yeah that's a nice word for it. Because they are so far behind the times, because no one will make a fuss, because the workers will bitch and moan, if not file grievances, which could lead to arbitration...

My work only in the last month or so has finally gotten off of using paper time cards to manually write down the hours worked. My last job, almost 12 years ago used computers, okay it was a simple DOS program, but it was more capable than paper cards. IT also took fewer people to figure out my paycheck from the time entered. For approx. 1,200 to 1,300 employees, my last job needed 4 people sometimes 5 at tax time to figure it all out, as far as my paycheck was concerned. Me, my supervisor, and 2 or 3 people in payroll. Here it takes 4 people just to get my time over TO payroll. And there are over 20 employees in payroll. THe workforce is not much greater here than there.

But if we just make cuts, without knowing what to cut, we end up with shit. Because there will be some who are more equal than others, because no one wants those workers to be unhappy, because they are so good at making life hell for everyone around them. They are like endangered species, you just can't go get rid of them, or do anything to them, except suffer them. And make everyone unhappy. Part of why working for the government will never be one of the best places to work.