BakaBT
BakaBT => Announcements => Topic started by: Duki3003 on December 21, 2011, 09:51:44 PM
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With the BakaBT motto in mind of accepting only the highest quality releases, the time has come to decide on downsizing the number of releases we take.
As you may know at the moment we are keeping inferior 8-bit releases alongside newly accepted Hi10P (10-bit) for compatibility reasons, however software support has caught up and they are now supported by most popular codec bundles (CCCP, K-Lite and others), as well as LAV Filters, CoreAVC (although still slightly buggy) for video acceleration and standalone players such as VLC beta and mplayer2.
As far as hardware goes most configurations nowadays should still be capable of processing and playing Hi10P.
Now, of course, something encoded in Hi10P does not make it somehow magically better, so as before 10-bit is still going to be compared with 8-bit and the better release will be accepted.
But before following through with this we would like to get the public opinion on this matter, considering you are still the ones who will download those releases.
To vote or discuss, press read more and log in to your forum account (which is enabled from your settings if you haven't already done so).
-Duki3003
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Personally i believe we should not keep a special slot for 8-bit. there already is quite a bit of support for 10-bit and this will only increase in the following months. other then for ancient devices it shouldnt really make much of a difference anyway.
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IMHO, it is a bit too early to prune 8-bit encodes in favor of 10-bit ones.
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I support the change.
The site has never catered to hardware devices, and there's no reason that someone's computer that was previously able to play 8-bit would not be able to now play 10-bit. The decoders are readily available and the extra processing power needed for the extra depth is made up for by the fact that the extra depth lowers the bit rate.
The list of excuses that you wouldn't be able to play this superior encoding procedure(though, as Duki says, not necessarily a superior encode) is a slim one.
I guess my only gripe at this point is the fact that people are still referring to it as "Hi10P". The community is a mess, but at least the site can maintain a little bit of consistency. 10-bit, 8-bit. Hi10P, HiP. I'd ask to choose one, but I think it's pretty clear which set of descriptors gives a better indicator of the encoding variant used. The community follows your example; get rid of the weird mess that is Hi10P.
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For 1080p videos 8bit is very necessary alongside 10bit.
The resources needed to play 10bit 1080p is very high and i can assure you many downloaders(if not the majority) doesn't have the hardware to keep processor power below 50%.
My processor is Coreā¢2 Duo@2.8GHz and when playing 1080p video it uses 60-100% which is unaccepted for me.
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On a slightly different issue, some encoders believe that the 10b software is still immature (see this comment in the Coalgirls blog, for example (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/?p=5467)). Others have expressed similar opinions to me in private.
It seems premature to switch over less than six months after support first showed up in major playback packages.
Duki3003 edit: Closed your url tag.
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It may be a bit too early because the way to encode in 10-bit is still a bit hackish, but the anime encoding community has always embraced newer and better things quicker than other encoding communities (Matroska, being the best example). Let's not hop off the train now. When a better filtering chain comes around, new 10-bit encodes can always be offered for comparison anyway.
I agree completely with IX on the consistency of naming. I don't think I've ever seen anyone in the encoding community refer to 8-bit as HiP, so the 10-bit moniker should be used to match that despite the technical names.
As for the smallish group of people with hardware that might put them out of 1080p 10-bit encodes... sorry. Sometimes you get hosed. You'll have to grab a 720p until you get new hardware or grab the 8-bit 1080p somewhere else. It sucks, but it shouldn't hold back a community whose sole purpose is to bring us the best quality encodes.
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This isn't really a question about what to do, it's just whether to view 10 and 8 bit equally now, or put it off another few months. Save yourself some work - do it now.
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I voted for the second option, I believe change is good but you guys should do it gradually like a 6 months plan from now, instead of doing it right aaway. I'm lucky (not) that my last pc died and bought a better desktop but thats not the case for the majority.
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On a slightly different issue, some encoders believe that the 10b software is still immature (see this comment in the Coalgirls blog, for example (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/?p=5467)). Others have expressed similar opinions to me in private.
It seems premature to switch over less than six months after support first showed up in major playback packages.
More and more fansubbers are switching their primary encodes and releasing only in 10-bit, CoalGirls aside, many decided that the pros of 10-bit outweigh the cons.
Now this decision is based on quality, and less on hardware support. As IX has mentioned previously, with the deprecation of XviD slot we stopped catering for hardware players, and most PCs with proper codecs should be able to play 10-bit without too many issues.
I guess my only gripe at this point is the fact that people are still referring to it as "Hi10P". The community is a mess, but at least the site can maintain a little bit of consistency. 10-bit, 8-bit. Hi10P, HiP. I'd ask to choose one, but I think it's pretty clear which set of descriptors gives a better indicator of the encoding variant used. The community follows your example; get rid of the weird mess that is Hi10P.
I can rename the thread to HiP for more consistency, although not that many people are familiar with what HiP is, thus the reason why I opted for 8-bit instead.
We do try to keep consistency with the torrent with using the Hi10P as a keyword, but retaining 10-bit in the title.
While I'm not particularly against using one or the other, Hi10P produces more accurate results when searching.
This isn't really a question about what to do, it's just whether to view 10 and 8 bit equally now, or put it off another few months. Save yourself some work - do it now.
That is exactly what it is, but we want to get the our general user opinion.
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I can rename the thread to HiP for more consistency, although not that many people are familiar with what HiP is, thus the reason why I opted for 8-bit instead.
We do try to keep consistency with the torrent with using the Hi10P as a keyword, but retaining 10-bit in the title.
While I'm not particularly against using one or the other, Hi10P produces more accurate results when searching.
If using Hi10P as a tag has already been done to the point where it would be too much of a hassle to go back and fix it, then I guess the damage has been done and that's what we're stuck with. I just personally hope that it is not too late.
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For me, I'm personally more for Hi10p. Regardless of whether it takes up more computing power or not, the amount of anime I collect is too much and especially since I love collecting 720p and higher it just takes up way too much data space.
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Keep 1080p 8-bit along with 1080p 10-bit. As you said VLC is still in beta so most that use it won't be able to play it yet unless we get the beta. I think you should hold off for a little while longer for players, etc. to fully update to the recent change. Also I don't know of any fansubs that are only doing 1080p 10-bit. I know most are doing 1080p 8-bit along with the 1080p 10-bit.
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Treat them equally. The problem people mentioned about 1080p 10-bit is IMO not something major, since BakaBT won't accept upscales and most 1080p are upscales anyway, and for some that aren't, there's always 720p versions. Before 10-bit, many people can't play 1080p H.264 too, but no one cares and these people settle with smaller resolution, so I don't see what makes 10-bit's case any different now.
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The site has never catered to hardware devices, and there's no reason that someone's computer that was previously able to play 8-bit would not be able to now play 10-bit.
I don't think so. This summer I bought new computer with Zacate E350. Cpu power is low, but I've been able to play any FullHD video or anime thanks to GPU acceleration. I knew I could buy low consumption pc because something like that existed. But I never imagined that new video format would come. So what is solution for me? Spend money on new computer again? Or watch SD?
Shortly:
My computer is able to play every 8bit video, but isn't able to play any 10bit.
Example: Coalgirls - Bakemonogatari v2 10bit
Newest codecs (I've tried everything recommended), newest VLC (even beta versions) - video is lagging as hell and deffinitely not watchable. But I can play their 8bit version smoothly and even do anything else on my pc without any dropped frames (MPC-HC).
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Treat 10-bit as an extra until support is better. It's nice that the latest codec packs support 10bit, however, media centers often aren't governed by codec packs directly, and software can take time to catch up such as XBMC.
I for one don't really care if older hardware can't handle it, as that's easy enough to deal with -- cash is "simple" like that. Personally I use a custom-built HTPC thats rather high powered on a very nice HDTV with an additional ~$1000 worth of audio equipment, a home server to host ~10 terabytes of anime, and a cozy lazy-boy to watch my anime from, much of which comes from here. Like many, my HTPC runs XBMC, which while ffmpeg-git supports Hi10p, a lot of software that utilizes takes quite some time before those sorts of updates make it in. The codec pack argument really only serves those that literally sit in front of their computers to watch anime, with a mouse and keyboard, in my imagination, I see a picture of people in their dorm rooms.
My vote, if it was an option, would be to bring up the subject again when software support is better. Codec packs alone aren't enough.
Obviously my opinion does not represent the internet, but instead my (any many others) personal use case. Please don't write off things such as XBMC (and Plex, the premiere XBMC derivative ^_^). I come to bakabt for the high quality.
These are things that will happen sooner then later, unlike things like hardware support. The difference is supporting a different kind of high-end as opposed to the lowest common denominator. My guess is 10-bit will be in a much better place in 6 months to a year.
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Personally, I don't really care.
when dealing with anime that comes from television based source, there is very little difference in quality if any that I can see.
the only benefit in that regard is smaller file size. From what I have seen (maybe a repeat what was said, but worth repeating), the quality is more dependant on source files used than the encoding, as I have seen some 8bit video files that are by far are better quality than 10bit encoded files encoded by other fan-subbing groups.
But, the exeption to that rule would most likely be Blu Ray disc sourced files, where you have the quality to begin with.
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I do not feel that hardware support is advanced enough to make 10-bit the preferred encode.
For example, I have 5 devices I can play back 8-bit mkv files on now. Only one of them can play back 10-bit mkv files without issue and that is my PC. Updates are coming for 2 of the devices so they should have that functionality in a few months (if promises from the makers are keep).
My preferred solution is to a new E slot for the best 8-bit encode, and prune the others as 10-bit encodes of better quality than the existing 8-bit ones become available.
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To garretn and anyone else using XBMC: Look into DSPlayer (http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=HOW-TO:Set_up_DSPlayer). That way you can get perfectly working 10-bit support into XBMC.
Also, I personally watch stuff on my 42" FullHD Panasonic plasma TV that I have connected to my computer simply via HDMI. I don't have any fancy sound setups, though. Either way, you can most definitely get XBMC to run 10-bit stuff just fine.
I personally say go for it: ASS softsubs are not very hardware-compatible either (no hardware player that could properly render ASS subtitles exist), yet fansubbers have been using them for years. Caring about compatibility too much will just bog us down. If we all had waited for hardware support to catch up before moving to H.264 as well, we would have only started using it a year or two ago.
And to everyone who has bought a hardware decoder: You should have known what you were buying. Hardware decoders have always been inflexible in what they can do - whenever something new comes, they usually will not be able to do anything about it, whereas with a proper CPU the only thing you need to do is update the software. I personally have always considered hardware decoding to be nothing but a nice extra to use if available, but with anime playback you should not use it as a total replacement for software decoding. With the fansub scene's long history of not caring about hardware support, people should have really seen this coming.
Also, I agree with IX on the terminology thing - don't mix things like that, it just looks terrible. Just stick to 10-bit and 8-bit, please, as the bit depth is literally the only difference between High 10 Profile and High Profile.
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I'd say time to move on.
I would like to see Group C qualifying encodes still done in 8-bit for sure though from a few people >_>
Just don't end up doing 'Best Release' then 'The only group that did it in 8-bit' (Quality always please).
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I don't know why you need a vote, you're just making more work for yourselves by approving two releases for one slot. I'm certainly not in favor of you wasting your time...
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I was looking at these "Other versions (encoding, resolution, language)" on the torrent pages. I prefer it to be like this IMHO.
A Category = 10Bit 1080P and 720P (BD Rips)
B Category = 8Bit 1080p and 720P (BD Rips)
C Category = 10Bit and 8Bit 720P and 480P (TV and DVD rips)
D Category = Those .AVI or .MP4 or other old age formats
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Our categories are well defined, and they are unlikely to change any time soon.
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I'm totally against giving a handicap to 8-bit encodes just because it's hardware-friendly.
One who can play 8-bit 720p, can get away with a 10-bit 720p. In addition, who has trouble playing 8-bit 1080p doesn't download it for the purpose of viewing but for having a 1080p release within his/her grasp.So they will download it whether it's 8-bit or not.
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10 bit is good i had to play with settings a bit to get it to work but i like it and its better quality. There was a troll that posted to our forums saying it was bad (it was its first post on our forum) I flamed that troll a bit but my post was removed. 10 bit is good and i am looking forward to them.
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Its ok to say that hardware is now sufficent to handle 10 bit but for those who have stand alone media players rather than PC's attached to their TV's this could be a problem. As far as I know most if not all stand alone media playes not not support 10 bit yet so I think that for the moment 8 bit should still be allowed alongside 10 bit encodes until there is better support.
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Question: Does 10-bit encodes have a substantial difference in terms of filesize compared to the 8-bit encodes. My concern is the size issue as some others on here would be too.
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Question: Does 10-bit encodes have a substantial difference in terms of filesize compared to the 8-bit encodes. My concern is the size issue as some others on here would be too.
Generaly yes they do. In my experiance a 250MB 10-bit encode is just as good looking as a 350MB 8-bit encode.
10-bit is the future (and maybe 12 and 14 bit as well), but most tablets and all set top boxes and a few media centers have problems with 10-bit. Any pc made in the last 5 years will not with the right software.
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Even though I have a PC I built to handle just about anything that I ask it to do with ease, not everyone is able to say the same. Because this community is for everyone, I feel we should keep both 8 bit & 10bit and offer both, side by side for another 6 months to a year. By then, many members will have upgraded or moved on. 10 bit is the wave of the future, but it is too new to make a complete switch at this time.
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I picked option C but i know im in a small category of people so either options is fine. I run all hardware standalones for my players that being 5 players, and my pc is now is just an intel atom setup that cant handle anything, I did pick up one of the marvell units that are supposed to handle 10bit havent got a chance to test it yet had other major issues with it.
But I dont watch as much anime as I used to so im also fine with re encoding to 8bit if I have to.
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Sudden change may be too much shock for some friends, so I think we should hold back for sometime, maybe 6-12 months.
But I will support every decision from BBT staff, because it's you who will do all the work.
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I cannot come in terms with the string "most stand-alone players don't support 10-bit yet, so we should wait a while longer". IMO, enough players support it, so that shouldn't be a problem.And many fansubs are adopting 10-bit as the only method of encoding starting this winter 2012 season. So, even if we wait awile, it'll be hard to find 8-bit releases from quality fansubs.
And about the size advantage of 10-bit, I don't think people should expect too much out of it since it seems most encoders are more concerned about quality rather than file-size.
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i think 1080p should go to 10p but leave 720 in 8 bit
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I say go ahead and just choose just the best releases. If you keep approving both eventually when you do decide to start pruning some of them the workload might be impossible to manage.
Getting comparison shots between all already accepted 8-bit and 10-bit is already going to be a mess. Imagine if there are hundreds of torrents. If there isn't an 8-bit version just letting it go to slot D would satisfy those whose PC's can't handle it.
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I have high end hardware, and yet the 10 bit release's ive tried lagg the shit out of my computer. I have the newest CCCP and a powerful GPU. 10-bit compression is new and has a lot of bugs. until its adopted by sony or some company that is well known, 8-bit should remain the standard.
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I voted Treat 10-bit and 8-bit equally, but allow a dedicated 8-bit SD slot (slot C).
I just put together a new machine able to easily handle playing 1080 10-bit encodes... But not everybody has the money to upgrade their system like I did. My old machine, a core 2 duo 2.66 GHz was able to play 1080 8-bit just fine, as well as 720 10-bit. There was nothing wrong with my old system so it felt rather rough to upgrade. My old computer is sitting on my counter....neglecte d, staring at me. My thoughts are.... If you want the best of the best, upgrade your system. If you can't afford to, well you can still get your anime here.
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I have high end hardware, and yet the 10 bit release's ive tried lagg the shit out of my computer. I have the newest CCCP and a powerful GPU. 10-bit compression is new and has a lot of bugs. until its adopted by sony or some company that is well known, 8-bit should remain the standard.
/facepalm
Do you even know your pc specs and what is high end harware these days ?
I have low-mid end harware and I can run 4k resolution video with no problems
and 10bit OFC (cpu is athlon II x4 635)
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It is pretty much a given that BBT will move to 10-bit for the majority of releases that will be retained/maintained. I think it's much more a matter of time-frame. In a general, big-picture answer: it is too soon. Values I propose for "too soon" are by about 6 to 12 months, perhaps 18 at the most.
What you are doing now is great. Keeping both 8-bit & 10-bit simultaneously is a great service to the community. However, that service will have less value over time ... sort of why there are virtually no *.wmv & *.avi torrents anymore.
8-bit is dying its own unglorious death, and granting a little more time does no harm.
More importantly, it can do some good, in that there are some absolutely great torrents of high quality in 8-bit that should not be deleted out-of-hand. Keep your quality standards high, both for video quality and quality of translation. Don't replace an 8-bit torrent until & unless there is a clearly superior 10-bit.
This could also be an opportunity to adjust some of the other community standards. Consider other requirements that might be improved, or added, for new offers and the maintenance of existing ones. Preservation of alternative subs, for one example. Require them as easily usable attachments, or as added muxes into new offers (when most practical, not as some sort of jack-booted, inflexible approach).
10-bit offers must earn their place, with clear advantages over any other offer in any other format available. Please keep the quality standards high.
There are several possible intermediate steps. One temporary one is to make all 8-bit encodes freeleech, either immediately or in the near future. This would take the pain out of people trying to maintain ratio and encourage many, many more downloads of those torrents ... which will then effectively become "archived privately" rather than coordinated via the BBT tracker. Over time, natural attrition will replace most 8-bit encodes while giving fair chance for members to grab as many copies as they have capacity for without fearing impact on their ratio.
Another is to add an E category, and reserve the D & E categories for preservation of older torrents that have unique value (and are largely 8-bit). Very specifically target anime that has unusual & rare translation for collectors amongst us that are more otaku oriented. I applaud the quality control of BBT, but this community also fulfills a function as an archive for rarities ... something I hope gains significant consideration.
One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
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and this depends on groups
commie,thora,cgi .... are now 10bit only (yes I know Mardock-thora is 8bit)
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I'm with kristen on this one. Don't forget that each series will have to be examined individually when you switch to the "8-bit and 10-bit are equal" policy. Every three months is another season, which typically means another 5-20 series depending on how well the season goes and how many older series are uploaded as well. Each series will take maybe 15-30 minutes to examine, so just six months will introduce at least 2.5 more hours of work, and can go up to 20 hours, with these estimates, which are pretty modest IMO. Of course, assuming each staff member can handle them alone without needing the input of other staff, this time is split across all the staff members, but it's still a lot of extra time.
Tl;dr - the earlier we make the switch, the better.
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I suppose I'm on the minority here, but I like to use hardware players for my HD files, as often as I can. I'm pretty sure hardware devices (PS3, BD players, etc...) do not support 10 bit encoding, yet... That would be my only gripe.
However, while working on an anime encode, my video-encoding partner has showed me the advantages of 10-bit encoding, mainly maintaining a pretty good video quality file, at roughly 75% the file size, which is a pretty good deal for the bigger, HD files, I think.
I have cast my vote, and will wait for the conclusion.
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I know the anime community in general thinks very poorly of Macs and those who use them, but please bear in mind that there are a percentage of us who do use them. And from the little bit of reading I've done so far, it appears that Macs are unlikely to play very well with 10 bit at all. I'm currently downloading one episode Coalgirls 10 bit encode of Bakemonogatari to run in the major video players with OSX support and will report back on how well that works.
So far, my computer has been able to play every 1080p release I've ever downloaded from this website without breaking a sweat, outputting them to a 32" TV. Please don't throw away support for an entire subset of PC prematurely. Mac support for 10 bit will come in the form of updates to the programs we use to run video, but usually a good 6 to 12 months behind everyone else.
Please bear in mind that "get a PC" is not a realistic option for all of us...
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I know the anime community in general thinks very poorly of Macs and those who use them, but please bear in mind that there are a percentage of us who do use them. And from the little bit of reading I've done so far, it appears that Macs are unlikely to play very well with 10 bit at all. I'm currently downloading one episode Coalgirls 10 bit encode of Bakemonogatari to run in the major video players with OSX support and will report back on how well that works.
So far, my computer has been able to play every 1080p release I've ever downloaded from this website without breaking a sweat, outputting them to a 32" TV. Please don't throw away support for an entire subset of PC prematurely. Mac support for 10 bit will come in the form of updates to the programs we use to run video, but usually a good 6 to 12 months behind everyone else.
Please bear in mind that "get a PC" is not a realistic option for all of us...
Kazzienna, I run on an iMac, on OSX 10.6.8. At least on my machine, and with the latest VLC player, I've had no problems with 10-bit encoding. Haven't tried something really HD yet, but that seems to work.
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I have high end hardware, and yet the 10 bit release's ive tried lagg the shit out of my computer. I have the newest CCCP and a powerful GPU. 10-bit compression is new and has a lot of bugs. until its adopted by sony or some company that is well known, 8-bit should remain the standard.
I have an older Athlon 64X2 with a radeon 5450 with only 512 MB memory. Low end stuff, yet it has no problem with 10-bit.
I found this guide form coalgirls web site to be the best for setting up 10-bit playback. http://coalgirls.wakku.to/?page_id=4611 (http://coalgirls.wakku.to/?page_id=4611)
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I suppose I'm on the minority here, but I like to use hardware players for my HD files, as often as I can. I'm pretty sure hardware devices (PS3, BD players, etc...) do not support 10 bit encoding, yet... That would be my only gripe.
Actually, I can play 10-bit encodes on my ps3 with ps3 media server. Or were you talking about something else?
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I suppose I'm on the minority here, but I like to use hardware players for my HD files, as often as I can. I'm pretty sure hardware devices (PS3, BD players, etc...) do not support 10 bit encoding, yet... That would be my only gripe.
Actually, I can play 10-bit encodes on my ps3 with ps3 media server. Or were you talking about something else?
My current W-LAN setup doesn't allow for decent video streaming, and a wired LAN is not an option. I usually put my files on a USB drive and play them directly in the player (PS3 or BD player).
However, it's an interesting solution to the 10-bit encoding dilemma and the hardware player.
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My hardware is not very powerful (Celeron M 550 + Intel GM965) yet it handles 720p Hi10P flawlessly. More and more groups are abandoning 8-bit so I believe that keeping it alive forcefully would not be wise.
Actually, I can play 10-bit encodes on my ps3 with ps3 media server. Or were you talking about something else?
Mencoder or AviSynth/FFDShow? Most of the time I'm working on Linux so it makes a difference...
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With some groups still using good ol' XviD, low-res 10-bit releases still seem pretty rare. So it looks like Group C will be a de facto 8-bit slot for the time being.
It's also worth pointing out that the total adoption of new technology in the anime scene isn't as fast as you'd expect. The first "softsubbed" h264/mkv release for an ongoing TV series was in Fall 2005 (Eclipse's Shana), but XviD/avi-primary releases didn't fully die out until Winter/Spring 2009 (Ayako's Chrome-Shelled Regios and a.f.k.'s Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya S2).
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The same Eclipse dropped 8-bit after 5 episodes of Shana Final because of low interest compared to XviD and Hi10P.
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My hardware is not very powerful (Celeron M 550 + Intel GM965) yet it handles 720p Hi10P flawlessly. More and more groups are abandoning 8-bit so I believe that keeping it alive forcefully would not be wise.
Actually, I can play 10-bit encodes on my ps3 with ps3 media server. Or were you talking about something else?
Mencoder or AviSynth/FFDShow? Most of the time I'm working on Linux so it makes a difference...
Mencoder
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My hardware is not very powerful (Celeron M 550 + Intel GM965) yet it handles 720p Hi10P flawlessly. More and more groups are abandoning 8-bit so I believe that keeping it alive forcefully would not be wise.
Actually, I can play 10-bit encodes on my ps3 with ps3 media server. Or were you talking about something else?
Mencoder or AviSynth/FFDShow? Most of the time I'm working on Linux so it makes a difference...
Mencoder
I do the same for my Xbox360 PS3MediaServer [AviSynth 2.6(CoreAVC 3.x)/Mencoder].
On topic though, I think that we should hold off on the equal treatment until all of the major solutions for playing Hi10P are proper release versions. For example my system can play 1080p 10-bit just fine but as I just noted, streaming it to my television for viewing on a non-small screen requires an ALPHA version of AviSynth to work properly. That's not exactly optimal.
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Well, let's think about it logically? Are 10bit encodes better then 8bit ones? While that's not true 100% of the time, if using the exact same settings, 10bit will always be better then 8bit. That's a fact, and the nature of the x264 encoding, and cannot be argued. So, why are people bitching? Because 10bit is not supported on stand-alone players. However, most anime are made taking the PC into consideration only. As such, most encoders just don't care about that.
Bottom line: 10bit looks better, BakaBT only takes the best quality, so 10bit should have the edge. There is no need for a special 8bit slot. In fact, it would be pointless, because almost no groups release in both 8 bit and 10 bit.
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10 bit is nice however alot of computers still cannot handle it i say give the option for a while still. On to of that ive seen some 10 bit that was just full of fail because alot of people still cant encode it correctly
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Well if it's not encoded correctly and doesn't offer any clear advantages it's not going to be accepted anyway.
Time to move on, people with older hardware need to upgrade to get the best, you can't run the latest and greatest on old hardware.
Settle for lower resolution encodes or learn to overclock, It's SO cheap to upgrade to a quad core now there really is no reason why people can't be running quad core processors especially if they have a love for high quality 1080p anime.
I say let the 10bit times begin as does the majority. Evaluate them equally!
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I don't see any reason not to put 10 bit and 8 bit releases on equal footing (ie first option). Where the 10-bit is better, it will be retained, and where the 8-bit is better, it will be retained. The migration to 10-bit (in regards to the fansubbing community as a whole) should take care of itself in that case; releases will improve over time and eventually there will be little to no 8-bit competition. In other words, let nature run its own course, and roll with it.
To the people who are concerned with being unable to play 10-bit encodes: your concerns are legitimate; 10-bit will have higher demands on hardware from what I've read, but it's not like all the existing 8-bit releases will suddenly disappear.
it looks like Group C will be a de facto 8-bit slot for the time being.
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Can you ever see a difference on 24 bit monitor? How many people have 30bit displays? Moreover, windows doesn't support any colour depth higher than 24 bit without hacks. You simply wouldn't see any difference, I think.
As of today, there are only 24 displays on the market that support higher colour depth than 24, and the cheapest one costs 380 usd.
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Can you ever see a difference on 24 bit monitor? How many people have 30bit displays? Moreover, windows doesn't support any colour depth higher than 24 bit without hacks. You simply wouldn't see any difference, I think.
What the hell are you talking about? 24bit monitor? 30bit display? Dude, be just got to 10bit depth. We're a LONG way from anything higher.
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24 bit = 8 * 3 (one for each colour)
30 bit = 10 * 3
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Option A undoubtedly.
Higher quality? Win.
Same or smaller file-size? Vote decided upon.
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One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
10-bit H.264 decoding today is about as efficient as H.264 decoding in general was two years ago. So if you could play HD H.264 encodes two years ago without issues, you should have no issues playing 10-bit HD H.264 encodes today.
Also, for those using a Mac, look into MPlayer.app (https://sites.google.com/site/hermihg/). That's one option for playing 10-bit, and plain mplayer2 should be another (and I think some other flavors of mplayer(2) capable of 10-bit playback exists too).
To baybal: The bit depth of your monitor is irrelevant - the main benefit of 10-bit is the increased compression due to the higher precision, and that is something that takes effect on the encoding side and isn't in any way affected by the bit depth of the display you are viewing it with.
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To baybal: The bit depth of your monitor is irrelevant - the main benefit of 10-bit is the increased compression due to the higher precision, and that is something that takes effect on the encoding side and isn't in any way affected by the bit depth of the display you are viewing it with.
O_O
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One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
10-bit H.264 decoding today is about as efficient as H.264 decoding in general was two years ago. So if you could play HD H.264 encodes two years ago without issues, you should have no issues playing 10-bit HD H.264 encodes today.
Also, for those using a Mac, look into MPlayer.app (https://sites.google.com/site/hermihg/). That's one option for playing 10-bit, and plain mplayer2 should be another (and I think some other flavors of mplayer(2) capable of 10-bit playback exists too).
To baybal: The bit depth of your monitor is irrelevant - the main benefit of 10-bit is the increased compression due to the higher precision, and that is something that takes effect on the encoding side and isn't in any way affected by the bit depth of the display you are viewing it with.
Thanks for that. I tried the new MPlayer and it works well. I'm on a 2010 Macbook Pro, so anything that age or newer with similar specs should work fine. Shame it doesn't run great in XBMC, that's my primary player, but I believe they're updating shortly anyway. At least I know something will play. =)
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Treat them bot equally. I'm running the latest CCCP with standard configuration and decorders and all 10-bit release play without problems. Actually I never had problems with playing video files with CCCP. So why wait longer to move on with something new? I don't think it's a software problem but hardware problem. With the money you save on buying expensive blurays you can buy a better PC...
I'm doing the same as Daiz: 46" FullHD Panasonic plasma TV that I have connected to my computer simply via HDMI. I don't have any fancy sound setups. MY PC is 4 years old and plays 1080p 10-bit releases just fine.
And if you can't play it, BBT has always lower resolution files so I really don't see why we should keep 8 and 10-bit together.
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I fully support the 10-bit revolution and think we should just fully change to 10-bit, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
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I fully support the 10-bit revolution and think we should just fully change to 10-bit, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Except car accidents :)
Quick question: why do we keep calling it Hi10P. I know that's the name of the profiles, but isn't much easier to just call it 10bit?
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This was already discussed at the beginning of the thread and it's generally been decided to ditch the Hi10P moniker and go with just calling it 10bit.
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I mostly use a WD-TV Live to watch my anime on a 40" LCD TV, it can play almost any 8bit file up to 1080p, but 10bit is a no-go, and it cannot be helped with a firmware upgrade. And the only NMT atm that might play 10bit is the Nixeus Fusion XS, all others cannot. My computer is an old Core 2 Quad with an GeForce 8800GTS that plays 1080p 10bit just fine in mplayer, no problem there for me, but I won't place it near my TV. I have thought to get/build a small/silent HTPC from time to time, but even new economic ones with the AMD E-450 platform e.g. have problems with 10bit, since driver support is not here yet and it is unknown if/when it will come for the various operating systems. So my vote is for the option to keep a separate slot for 1080p 8bit encodes.
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All I know is that some things I can play, and some things I can't, and I realize that's my personal problem. I have an older computer, and I can't play 720p releases. I don't think all fansub groups should only release in 480p, but I definitely prefer if they release both versions. There are some series that are available on BakaBT that aren't available to me because the only version is 720p. But I don't complain or get upset because the vast majority of the time, there are multiple versions available.
As long as that continues to be the case, then I don't mind what stance BakaBT takes on this 8bit/10bit issue (which doesn't even make any sense to me, but I've never cared about current technology). As long as torrents for people like me with older computers continue to be uploaded alongside the flashy, top-of-the-line torrents, then I'm happy.
This may not be helpful, but I felt like it was worth saying. What makes BakaBT great, to me, is that it isn't exclusionary. It's organized and has rules that it follows, but you don't have to have a 3-month-old computer to make use of the site, and you also don't get shafted if you do have a computer that can play 1080p and such.
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I also think it's time to allow comparisons between 10-bit and 8-bit and choose only the best one. To those who feel left out, I'll paraphrase many of the torrent approval mods: "BakaBT isn't the only source for anime" , when they feel that the content is not appropriate here. As BakaBT is an archival site it should only retain the best quality, as it has in the past.
Moreover, I also think using Hi10P and 8-bit together is incorrect because it only creates confusion. Either use 10-bit and 8-bit, which would be preferable, or Hi10P and HiP.
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I don't really care about the 1080p slot as my projector is 720p but when it comes to the 720p stuff I would really hope you keep an 8bit slot. My HTPC is Intel Atom/Nvidia Ion based and even overclocked it could not play neither coalgirls nor commie 720p release of the second Macross F movie without lagging as both where 10bit.
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One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
That is not entirely untrue, as long as you have at least 2 GHz dual core and a somewhat decent graphic card you should be able to play 10-bit HD as long as the bitrate is not overinflated. A single core _should_ be able to play 10-bit SD as long as it's not already struggling to run h.264 alone (in which case you really should consider upgrading).
This was already discussed at the beginning of the thread and it's generally been decided to ditch the Hi10P moniker and go with just calling it 10bit.
Where did we decide that o.O?
Although I don't really care one way or the other, if the use of term 10-bit is more supported I can rename the existing keyword without too much effort, and "enforce" the use of it on torrents if that is generally preferred...
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This was already discussed at the beginning of the thread and it's generally been decided to ditch the Hi10P moniker and go with just calling it 10bit.
Where did we decide that o.O?
Although I don't really care one way or the other, if the use of term 10-bit is more supported I can rename the existing keyword without too much effort, and "enforce" the use of it on torrents if that is generally preferred...
Make a poll about it.
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A single core _should_ be able to play 10-bit SD as long as it's not already struggling to run h.264 alone.
As well as some 10-bit 720p encodes.
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Hi10P is somewhat better than 8-bit. (maybe because of size that's smaller or something else). But the problem I have now is that with hardware acceleration i'm not able to play Hi10P files in 1080p. And my cpu is too slow to play 8 bit 1080p. So i am only able to play 1080p files with hardware acceleration and unfortunately there aren't any gpu's which support Hi10p with hardware acceleration. So i say that we only dedicate a slot for 1080p 8 bit files. And im also sure that the majority of the downloaders has some problems with this (cpu too slow, or lack of hardware acceleration).
SO i say lets keep a slot for 1080p 8-bit releases!!!
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One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
That is not entirely untrue, as long as you have at least 2 GHz dual core and a somewhat decent graphic card you should be able to play 10-bit HD as long as the bitrate is not overinflated. A single core _should_ be able to play 10-bit SD as long as it's not already struggling to run h.264 alone (in which case you really should consider upgrading).
I would only be able to DL and play the 8-bit/720p versions of videos as I have a stand alone media player that is restricted to nothing higher than 8-bit due to internal hardware of the system. I also have a laptop running Linux(Ubuntu flavoured) which due to vid card restrictions can not even play 1080p/10-bit. then there is my Windows tower that also is unable to play 10-bit even with the newest video decoding software as it becomes CPU locked when trying to play this encode level. the processor is a 2.8GHz Dual Core processor that is over 5 years old. A lot of you talk about doing hardware upgrades well there are some of us 'working class' people that can not simply 'afford' to do any hardware upgrades. I have not even been able to 'upgrade' my system that is used for seeding the anime i have gotten from here and the only hdd it has in it is maxed out now as it is.
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I fully support the 10-bit revolution and think we should just fully change to 10-bit, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
Except car accidents :)
Quick question: why do we keep calling it Hi10P. I know that's the name of the profiles, but isn't much easier to just call it 10bit?
I myself prefere to say 10-bit x264 but yeah that's a personal preference, when talking about "10-bit" people seem to prefere to just say 10-bit instead of Hi10p however in file names a lot of people (including me) prefere to use the [Hi10p] tag in the name.
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I would only be able to DL and play the 8-bit/720p versions of videos as I have a stand alone media player that is restricted to nothing higher than 8-bit due to internal hardware of the system. I also have a laptop running Linux(Ubuntu flavoured) which due to vid card restrictions can not even play 1080p/10-bit. then there is my Windows tower that also is unable to play 10-bit even with the newest video decoding software as it becomes CPU locked when trying to play this encode level. the processor is a 2.8GHz Dual Core processor that is over 5 years old. A lot of you talk about doing hardware upgrades well there are some of us 'working class' people that can not simply 'afford' to do any hardware upgrades. I have not even been able to 'upgrade' my system that is used for seeding the anime i have gotten from here and the only hdd it has in it is maxed out now as it is.
What the hell are you talking about, I can play even HD 10-bit files on my 2.0 dual core laptop with intel integrated graphic card without issues on both Windows and Ubuntu. The only difference is I do not use standalone players like VLC, rather install Halli, LAV filters and a player of choice (MPC or KMPlayer), and mplayer2 with Smplayer on Ubuntu.
2.8 GHz dual core should run things even more smoothly...
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For 1080p videos 8bit is very necessary alongside 10bit.
The resources needed to play 10bit 1080p is very high and i can assure you many downloaders(if not the majority) doesn't have the hardware to keep processor power below 50%.
My processor is Coreā¢2 Duo@2.8GHz and when playing 1080p video it uses 60-100% which is unaccepted for me.
Though I have an Intel Core i5 2nd gen here(Which can play anything with MadVR ;D), but I agree with allouh in this case.
10bit 1080p releases can consume quite really high. For example grainny-made anime or anything else which still use high bitrate even in 10bit.
Most people usually deal with HQ 1080p by using dxva or gpu hardware acceleration. But 10bit simply kill this.
+With most releases these days being in 1080p and compete on best quality.
*edit: pardon me for not being specific, the point is I mean you can get something only in 1080p version. Like the best audio format or free DL ratio, etc. Or u just wanna experience "FullHD" finally but got stuck again ...
So I can easily imagine how many people will having trouble dealing with this "new gen 1080p"s.
This will bring more the case which 'stay in FullHD-Heaven or else just rot in Lower resolution-hell' ,no mid-earth to stay anymore. :o
For people who didn't have hi-end HW already(Lucky me, phew!), theirs only option is to buy new Hardware!
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:-\ oh no, with my bandwidth it's bad enough downloading 1gb per episode i don't wanna think how much time i'll need to downoad somethin from now on :'(
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If you can't play 10bit 720p on a 2.8GHz Dual Core, you have screwed up your codecs beyond repair. Uninstall EVERYTHING, and start again, only installing MPC-HC, LAV filers+madVR or fddshow-tryouts. There is nothing else you need to play 10bit anime.
Anything over 2.5 ghz dual core CAN play 10-bit 720p IF PROPERLY CONFIGURED.
darede202: 10bit is SMALLER then 8bit.
parusit: "With most releases these days being in 1080p." Show me ONE anime that is only released in 1080p. Either the group releases in both, or there is another group releasing the same show in 720p. There are MORE 720p only anime then there are 1080p only.
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It's hard to properly receive some of the hardware related playback issues that people have. Two people with two identical hardware configurations can have different results based upon many factors, including but not limited to decoders, drivers, media players, simultaneously running software, operating systems, video renderers; the list goes on.
The argument I always see myself falling back on is the fact that my weakest computer is a four year old laptop sporting a 1.5 ghz dual-core(Intel T5250) and just last week I watched Coalgirls' Ano Hana on it. That's a level 5.1, 16 reference frame, 10-bit, 1080p, 10-bit encode. There were no issues beyond some lag when seeking through it.
I don't believe my laptop to be some kind of Jesus computer(though it is a thinkpad so I guess it comes close), so it's just hard to know what to make of most of the apparent hardware issues that I see in threads like this. If it is the inability of someone to utilize their computer to its potential, how much of an impact should that have on a decision like this?
At the very least, such statements, including my own, can't be taken at face value. There are too many varying levels of computer knowledge and too many different hardware configurations amongst the community to use what we say as a measuring stick.
Opinions that deal with the 10-bit technology and its maturity are valid, however much I may disagree with them and say that the encoding library is plenty ready. At least those arguments deal with things from the side of the encoder itself instead of the side of the user, which is a mess of inconsistency.
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:-\ oh no, with my bandwidth it's bad enough downloading 1gb per episode i don't wanna think how much time i'll need to downoad somethin from now on :'(
10-bit will cut down the filesizes....
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parusit: "With most releases these days being in 1080p." Show me ONE anime that is only released in 1080p. Either the group releases in both, or there is another group releasing the same show in 720p. There are MORE 720p only anime then there are 1080p only.
At least here on bakabt, the "free" slot is only available in 1080p
(Maybe darede2002 is complaining about this?)(+considering many people doesn't have good upload power to catchup with their DL bandwidth)
+In some releasese you get good audio only in the best version(which is 1080p).
Or people just wanna fully utilize from their 1000$ FullHD TV their spent on, but got stuck on lower res just because they don't have new CPUs.
Or many people I have seen ,despite comfortably playable, complaining about their CPU fan roaring like a helicopter.
Or their HomeTheatre setup has limited playing some hi10p. But their desktop pc in another room can run all that just fine?
etc etc.
It's not a matter of can you find something watchable here. It's a matter of viewing experiences that many may just lose.
Btw I don't even know why I writed these because it's non of my problem at all. It's not complaining here, just opinion :)
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Does anyone know the state of playback support for 10-bit on Tablets? From personal experience I know WebOS based tablets and the new Kindle fire do not have support for 10-bit natively. What about regular Android and iOS tablets?
Also, does anyone know the state of Handbreak support for 10-bit conversions?
If we can use a tool like Handbreak to convert files as needed to a format the Tablets, Atom based HTPC's , ect... support then the issue of support for weaker hardware is moot. All we need to do is convert the file to 8-bit. Last I looked (several months ago) Handbreak had no support for this.
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Megui and Multix264 can support 10bit if you just replace the x264.exe with a 10bit version.
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Megui and Multix264 can support 10bit if you just replace the x264.exe with a 10bit version.
no no
he wants to convert 10bit to 8bit using handbrake
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I always use a netbook - and before you ask, no, I haven't got the money to buy a better PC.
My netbook can handle 8-bit 720p anime, but even then it lags on some of the visually intense scenes (frequently found in anime like Bakemonogatari or Madoka).
I have tried to correctly configure my MPC settings multiple times, but madvr showed an error that apparently means my netbook simply isn't strong enough to play hi10p anime at all.
Switching to hi10p anime would render me completely unable to watch new anime, and thus it is something I really wouldn't want to happen.
Edit: Just found out that FullHD means 1080p, which is something I wish I hadn't voted for.
If 720p really turns out to be too much to ask of you, then I wouldn't mind just downloading 480p anime, as long as the quality is somewhat acceptable. (Doki's 480p release of Madoka, fo r instance, was good enough.)
I don't think there's a problem with the seeds being spread out over too many releases. I've never downloaded anything off Bakabt that wasn't seeded extremely well, and the less seeds a release has, the more people will want to seed it - after all, they'll be able to upload more, which will increase their ratio. Though there won't be a complete balance, hosting both 10-bit and 8-bit releases of the same series really won't turn into a catastrophe.
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The best version should take the slot, 10-bit or 8-bit. Quite frankly as important as video quality is, theres other aspects of a release equally as important.
Having more slots and spreading the seed pool out even more really isn't a good idea in the long term imo.
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Megui and Multix264 can support 10bit if you just replace the x264.exe with a 10bit version.
no no
he wants to convert 10bit to 8bit using handbrake
Well he can't. Nobody can. So I gave 2 alternatives.
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Not enough support for 10 bit yet.
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Not enough support for 10 bit yet.
You're going to need to back that up. The whole reason we're having this discussion is the fact that there IS enough support for it. "No there isn't" isn't something you can say without proof.
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How to play 10-bit on Mac then? The only solution that I have is still unstable.
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My opinion is that 10 bit encodes in 1080p might be a little to harsh on dual cores (and even weak quad cores), so keeping the 8-bit encodes in fullHD will be beneficial for most users.
There aren't (and will not be) many torrents in this situation, because most bluray rippers have switched to 10-bit. It's just a small niche of torrents anyway (redline is a nice example).
The gap in cpu power is not that great in the other categories (i think) so 10-bit and 8-bit should be treated equally for the other slots.
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How to play 10-bit on Mac then? The only solution that I have is still unstable.
http://code.google.com/p/mplayerosx-builds/
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How to play 10-bit on Mac then? The only solution that I have is still unstable.
http://code.google.com/p/mplayerosx-builds/
They dropped Snow Leopard :'(
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Not enough support for 10 bit yet.
If only you had read the first post of this thread and you'd find out it IS widely supported.
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Just my two cents:
Coalgirl's 1080p 10bit Bakemonogatari takes up 20% of my RAM on my three-year-old laptop with an i3, 4 GB of RAM, and no graphics card. Even if you go back maybe another four year's worth of technological progress, virtually any machine should have the processing power for a 720p version, let alone the 1080p one.
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Short version:
I voted for continuing the current practice of parallel existence of 10bit and 8bit.
Not that software support wasn't there, but for the sake of people that rely on dxva/gpu decoding in PC, or use a non-PC device, like some sort of TV set, standalone, game console, whatever. From these, it's probably only dxva/gpu that's really relevant, but that's not important. Imho there are merits for retaining 8bit in HD slots as well in SD slots.
Long version:
1) We users of desktops often don't have a good idea about the levels of cpu performance of notebooks. Whereas 10bit decoding isn't that much of a problem on decent desktop system (starting from faster dualcores), laptop computers often have drastically lower cpu speeds, while simultaneously being technologically behind: last year, my sister bought a reasonable laptop, still based on Core 2! It was not a total lowend, either, at that time, single cores or very low clocked cpus were ruling the cheapest laptops. In any case, there is a huge amount of users of 1-2 year old laptops with (core 2) pentiums, celerons and athlons. That being said, there is a lot of laptop users in general; morover laptops are not just slower, they are also not upgradeable or overclockable - I think any guidance touching on cpu requrements should be based on notebook users, not desktop users. After all, laptops outsell desktops, more and more people only have a laptop now.
In any case, I think at least partial 8bit support for these cases should be retained - whether that will be in 720p or 1080p slot.
2) The C slot for SD releases also raises problems: For my first 10-bit DVDrip, I did some testing on Athlon XP 2200 (1.8GHz improved K7 arch). Whereas it was able to play through most of the video with some headroom (even when downclocked a bit), there was a regular pattern of scenes with elevated cpu intensiveness, the usage went up and the cpu couldn't maintain realtime decoding (and this was 24fps - 704x480 resolution, so not a worst case scenario in SD slot, where stuff like 30fps 848x480 can happen). The problem here can be that libavcodec underperforms when SSE2 isn't available, or actually maybe the motion compensation in high bitdepth just leads to more prominent spiking in torture scenarios (lots of vectors with little skips & huge bitrate to push through CABAC as a bonus). In any case, 10bit decoding even of SD resolution might pose a problem on anything older than Athlon 64. High-clocked Pentium 4 cpus might be fine, but where exactly is the breakpoint I dunno. I'd expect it to be north of 2GHz.
In any case, if the C slot is meant for users of old computers (apart form the obvious case of stuff without HD source), I would say it should provide 8bit fallback for 10bit releases.
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I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.
The problem I see is where do we draw the line with the hardware support. How long till GPU support is there as that falls into hardware and not just software? Also current stand-alone hardware players may never support 10-bit, depending on the internal hardware used.
As for computer hardware, well the march is always to the newer hardware and that has never changed and old hardware always gets left behind sooner or later.
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I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.
You don't have to worry about that, old 8-bit SD torrents will be swapped for 10-bit encodes only if someone is crazy enough to re-encode them (and if they turn out better ofc). I seriously doubt that someone would do that. And The "legacy" slot is slot D, not C.
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I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.
You don't have to worry about that, old 8-bit SD torrents will be swapped for 10-bit encodes only if someone is crazy enough to re-encode them (and if they turn out better ofc). I seriously doubt that someone would do that. And The "legacy" slot is slot D, not C.
So I guess I'm crazy enough then. Surprisingly there are quite a number of 10-bit SD encodes of old stuff which only had low quality 8-bit version before. Stuff like my works, or jackoneill's new 10-bit works, or a new Blood+ DVD rip currently ongoing by ecchilicious etc.
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Just my two cents:
Coalgirl's 1080p 10bit Bakemonogatari takes up 20% of my RAM on my three-year-old laptop with an i3, 4 GB of RAM, and no graphics card. Even if you go back maybe another four year's worth of technological progress, virtually any machine should have the processing power for a 720p version, let alone the 1080p one.
My netbook lags at Coalgirls' 720p 8-bit Bakemonogatari. It hasn't even been two years since I bought it. It simply /cannot/ play hi10p anime.
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I believe that 10 bit and 8 bit should be treated equally aside from the C slot for 8 bit SD for legacy purposes.
You don't have to worry about that, old 8-bit SD torrents will be swapped for 10-bit encodes only if someone is crazy enough to re-encode them (and if they turn out better ofc). I seriously doubt that someone would do that. And The "legacy" slot is slot D, not C.
You mean, there are no groups doing dvd-ripping anymore? Last time I checked, I saw 4-5 encoders from those in a single, 10 head strong IRC channel that I won't name :)
Edit: inb4ed by RedSuisei o/
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The current situation seems good for now. Remember, 10bit is only half an year old, for all effective reasons. I say, wait until it hits one year, then threat 8bit and 10bit equally. This is not because of hardware incompatibility (this won't be solved in just half an year), but just to make the life of the users easier, and the transition smoother. I expect that practically no group will be releasing in 8bit by the middle of the next year, so bakabt will be able to remove this option (of parallel existence) with next to none opposition.
P.S. as for playback on a PC, I should note something: 10bit playback requires less processor power than 8bit playback three years ago. If your processor couldn't play 8bit three years ago, you shouldn't be whining now. If your processor is less than three years old, chances are that it can play 10bit anyway.
edit:
My netbook lags at Coalgirls' 720p 8-bit Bakemonogatari. It hasn't even been two years since I bought it. It simply /cannot/ play hi10p anime.
From the beginning, you need SD encodes, not 8bit encodes. You can play back 10bit 480p without problems.
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P.S. as for playback on a PC, I should note something: 10bit playback requires less processor power than 8bit playback three years ago. If your processor couldn't play 8bit three years ago, you shouldn't be whining now. If your processor is less than three years old, chances are that it can play 10bit anyway.
Hardly true! In 2008, libavcodec's ffh264 was still good deal slower than coreavc especially for K8s (IIRC, for Core 2 cpus, the catchup more or less happened in jan 2009); and it was coreavc what people widely used (bought or pirated) for that very reason. It's not like coreavc had any notable performance changes since 2006 (for simplicity, let's speak about versions prior to 2.0). And no, unless you provide some meaningful benchmark, I won't believe that today's libavcodec decodes 10bit faster than 2008's did decode 8bit. Not even begining to speak about CoreAVC two years before that!
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Well, as CoreAVC is a non-free option (generally speaking), I didn't include it in my comparison, and have never actually used it... LAV video on the other hand didn't exist 3 years ago. Comparing LAV video to ffh264 three years ago (the best free decoders in the relevant moment of time), yeah, I think LAV video is faster on 10bit than ffh264 was on 8bit. Why I think so? I remember how the first 1080p BD rips I downloaded on my (then) new laptop were too heavy for my processor... while I can play 10bit 1080p without any problems now. On the exactly same machine (3years warranties ftw).
edit: I must admit, I really forgot about CoreAVC... but still, you can see where I am coming from.
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I didn't mean LAV video. When saying "libavodec", I was refering to the ffmpeg decoder, that has been powering ffdshow, MPlayer, VLC and other free decoders (LAV video eventually) from the start. ffh264 is the internal name of libavcodec's decoder for h.264, I think.
Well, as CoreAVC is a non-free option (generally speaking)
Pirates didn't care one bit. It was regularly distributed on xdcc bots, together with HD releases.
Why I think so? I remember how the first 1080p BD rips I downloaded on my (then) new laptop were too heavy for my processor... while I can play 10bit 1080p without any problems now. On the exactly same machine (3years warranties ftw).
That would be because for a long time, ffmpeg/libavcodec/ffh264 wasn't multithreaded! It could only use 1 core*. That was the other reason why people used CoreAVC instead, because it supported quas like from day 1 (I'm fairly sure it did in 2006). So in any case, the benchmark for decoding performance can in no way be 2008's or 2009's libavcodec (the "free" decoder), when the practical scenario is 2006's CoreAVC - which is almost as fast as for example Athlon 64 ever got, amusingly.
* Multithreaded libavcodec (aka ffmpeg-MT) started to happen in very alpha state in 2008. Throughout 2009 it was probably getting usable,by 2010 I think it was more or less stable and widely used thing but was still out of mainline tree and needed to be patched in. It only got merged into mainline ffmpeg (by that time schismed into ffmpeg and libav) in Q2 2011 (IIRC).
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Since BakaBT ranks releases by quality (not filesize), it makes sense to treat 8 and 10-bit encodes equally, but the staff must decide how to balance quality concerns with compatibility.
I am probably one of the few people here who actually does use CoreAVC for its improved performance. It allows me to play 720p releases on my old Pentium 4, which is simply not possible with the free AVC decoders. Since I've read Hi10P requires around 33% more processing power than a comparable 8-bit version, the overhead is simply unacceptable for me. It also doesn't help that CoreAVC's support for Hi10P is substandard compared to other decoders, although that may change in the next release.
I will understand if BakaBT decides to prioritize its quality standards above compatibility, but the longer the staff waits to make the transition, the fewer users will be alienated by it. I can only say that if this site starts replacing 8-bit 720p encodes with Hi10P versions, I will just have to get my anime elsewhere. I don't hold it against the staff that my computer is old; they just need to decide whether embracing a new format in the name of quality but at the expense of the userbase is worthwhile.
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To garretn and anyone else using XBMC: Look into DSPlayer (http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=HOW-TO:Set_up_DSPlayer). That way you can get perfectly working 10-bit support into XBMC.
Also, I personally watch stuff on my 42" FullHD Panasonic plasma TV that I have connected to my computer simply via HDMI. I don't have any fancy sound setups, though. Either way, you can most definitely get XBMC to run 10-bit stuff just fine.
I personally say go for it: ASS softsubs are not very hardware-compatible either (no hardware player that could properly render ASS subtitles exist), yet fansubbers have been using them for years. Caring about compatibility too much will just bog us down. If we all had waited for hardware support to catch up before moving to H.264 as well, we would have only started using it a year or two ago.
And to everyone who has bought a hardware decoder: You should have known what you were buying. Hardware decoders have always been inflexible in what they can do - whenever something new comes, they usually will not be able to do anything about it, whereas with a proper CPU the only thing you need to do is update the software. I personally have always considered hardware decoding to be nothing but a nice extra to use if available, but with anime playback you should not use it as a total replacement for software decoding. With the fansub scene's long history of not caring about hardware support, people should have really seen this coming.
Also, I agree with IX on the terminology thing - don't mix things like that, it just looks terrible. Just stick to 10-bit and 8-bit, please, as the bit depth is literally the only difference between High 10 Profile and High Profile.
I've tried both DSPlayer and bambi's pre-eden builds with updated ffmpeg (10bit) support, neither work well. I stand by saying that software isn't quite there yet, and my 6 months to a year prediction.
Honestly, we may be discussing the wrong question. I seems pretty obvious that 10-bit is the future, it's just whether or not it's time yet. I don't think it's time yet.
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And for the people that keep telling everyone they just need to upgrade an upgrade would be a downgrade for my needs. I could build 5 htpc's to replaces all my stand-alones. but then I lose out on a silent player that could play 1080p with HD audio bitstream, its just not a good solution for my needs.
If anime was 100% of my usage an htpc would be a good idea but since most of my usage is bluray rips I need the hd audio streams. So whatever happens I will just encode the shows i want back to 8bit
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I'm not sure 10bit is "future". With mainstream users, industry, tv, blurays, video ondemand services and whatnot and not least non-anime piracy generally using h.264, 8-bit will always be here. 10-bit will only be standard in so far as we stay in some sort of a niche :)
If there is future, it's going to be h.265 (whatever profile that gets mainstream and will have hardware decoders)...
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You mean, there are no groups doing dvd-ripping anymore? Last time I checked, I saw 4-5 encoders from those in a single, 10 head strong IRC channel that I won't name :)
Edit: inb4ed by RedSuisei o/
That's not what i meant, i was talking about old sd tv-rips. My fault for not explaining myself properly (and forgetting dvd ripping). Either way, if a 8-bit dvd-rip is worth keeping for legacy proposes when a better 10-bit option arrives, it should be moved to the D slot.
I love your and RedSusei's (and the others mentioned by him) works btw.
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I personally like the idea of maintaining at least one slot for high quality 8bit encodes. I personally stream most of my downloads via ps3 media server. The latest release supports 10bit, but just barely. I spent 3 hours getting the thing to work properly, and even then its not 100%. So for the next little while until not just hardware catches up, but other software packages that are out there now.
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how do i know if mine is a Hi10P or 8-bit encode as i use megui for my rips mainly for myself but sometimes i like to share my releases and if its not supported should i be using a different encoding program.
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you do realize they issued a CoreAVC 3.0.1 ... that fixed up the color bleeding....at least a month ago...
They didn't announce, but I went to their site to report the flakeyness, and found the upgrade and it cured all outstanding problems that _I_ had noticed ... not to say there might not still be some, but went back to vids
where I got psychedelic effects (color overload), -- all fixed...
Are there other probs w/core AvC that I just am not seeing?
????
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I asked Coalgirls why they were abandoning normal h264 for some 10-bit crud that I cannot run. It wasn't about file size reduction, they couldn't care. The answer was essentially... because we can. Thus new Coalgirls is on my blacklist. If you ain't switching to 10bit for size reduction, you are simply switching to it because it is a newer and cooler.
I think Thor Anime did the same thing now, except -even worse- the group doesn't mention this fact. So I did waste a week downloading 10+GB 1080p BD RIP just to have to download another one. So Thora Anime is now on my blacklist as well.
There is a lot of idiocy here, not just limited though to switching to 10bit "because we can, go f_ck yourself" and not tagging 10bit properly.
First and foremost DXVA is cheaper. DXVA also puts the CPU in its rightful place doing nothing graphical. Modern DXVA offers hardware accelerated 4K video playback. Why abandon such progressive technology and go back to days of XVID and CPU playback? 8-bit outperforms 10bit in old machines that do not support DXVA and obviously doesn't require any hardware power in new machines. It is not just that 10-bit is new and probably will never be supported by hardware. It is that 10-bit h264 is useless if you foresake file size differences.
Guess what? People who do not have high-end machines, use netbooks, or consoles like to watch High Definition Video too. Development builds of MPC:HC allow someone with a machine too weak to run Fallout to play 1080p video with kareoke effects.
I am currently downloading the 100GB 1080p Card Captor sub - I like high quality, I don't care about file size. Connection speeds improve and space isn't much of an issue either - there is no reason for 10bit aside from its cool factor.
Or you can have an attitude like this fine 10-bit supporting gentlemen,
^stop watching anime on your shitty plastic toys nigger
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Quality > Encoding.
For the ongoing series you can always find alternate download, and in a few years/months when only bakaBT will have active torrents, Hi10p support should be trivial.
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I asked Coalgirls why they were abandoning normal h264 for some 10-bit crud that I cannot run. It wasn't about file size reduction, they couldn't care. The answer was essentially... because we can. Thus new Coalgirls is on my blacklist. If you ain't switching to 10bit for size reduction, you are simply switching to it because it is a newer and cooler.
I think Thor Anime did the same thing now, except -even worse- the group doesn't mention this fact. So I did waste a week downloading 10+GB 1080p BD RIP just to have to download another one. So Thora Anime is now on my blacklist as well.
There is a lot of idiocy here, not just limited though to switching to 10bit "because we can, go f_ck yourself" and not tagging 10bit properly.
First and foremost DXVA is cheaper. DXVA also puts the CPU in its rightful place doing nothing graphical. Modern DXVA offers hardware accelerated 4K video playback. Why abandon such progressive technology and go back to days of XVID and CPU playback? 8-bit outperforms 10bit in old machines that do not support DXVA and obviously doesn't require any hardware power in new machines. It is not just that 10-bit is new and probably will never be supported by hardware. It is that 10-bit h264 is useless if you foresake file size differences.
Guess what? People who do not have high-end machines, use netbooks, or consoles like to watch High Definition Video too. Development builds of MPC:HC allow someone with a machine too weak to run Fallout to play 1080p video with kareoke effects.
I am currently downloading the 100GB 1080p Card Captor sub - I like high quality, I don't care about file size. Connection speeds improve and space isn't much of an issue either - there is no reason for 10bit aside from its cool factor.
Or you can have an attitude like this fine 10-bit supporting gentlemen,
^stop watching anime on your shitty plastic toys nigger
While I don't disagree overal, there are few points that I have to btich about.
1) I'm pretty sure that Fallout required like Pentium 90 and 16MB RAM (the game is superb tho!).
2) Thora announced the switch to 10-bit on their website; every release post has usage of high10 profile clearly stated in it. Also, one of their recent rips was made in 8bit preciselly on the ground that 10bit didn't seem to offer benefits for that anime. In other words, some of your disdain is misplaced.
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"BakaBT is unique in the quality of our content." - http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F (http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F)
I'm in support of 10bit. One of the reasons that I love BakaBT is because it offers the highest quality available.
..also, for those who are raising the issue of 10bit on netbooks, if I'm not mistaken, isn't 1024x600/1024x768 generally the screen resolution of a netbook? If so, I would have thought that 480p would be more than acceptable... wouldn't it be?
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"BakaBT is unique in the quality of our content." - http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F (http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/FAQ#What_makes_BakaBT_different.3F)
I'm in support of 10bit. One of the reasons that I love BakaBT is because it offers the highest quality available.
..also, for those who are raising the issue of 10bit on netbooks, if I'm not mistaken, isn't 1024x600/1024x768 generally the screen resolution of a netbook? If so, I would have thought that 480p would be more than acceptable... wouldn't it be?
1) Better netbooks (AMD c-50/60 or E-350/450, dualcore Atoms) can/do come with 1366x768 screens. Same for 15.4" laptops build on the mentioned AMD chips. Also, it's not just netbooks. ULV chips used in slim laptops also tend to have rather low clocks and thus, performance. and note that all these can eb used for driving an external display or tv set sometimes (this scenario probably isn't a common thing though).
2) As for prefering quality.... it isn't the 10-bit torrents that are supposed to go - those have their place secured (unless the visually blow in which case the point is moot); it's the 8bit fallback torrents this is about. Thus the "preference for best quality" argument isn't really relevant here. It's really a question of keeping fall-back, *secondary* releases if the primary one is not 8-bit.
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2) As for prefering quality.... it isn't the 10-bit torrents that are supposed to go - those have their place secured (unless the visually blow in which case the point is moot); it's the 8bit fallback torrents this is about. Thus the "preference for best quality" argument isn't really relevant here. It's really a question of keeping fall-back, *secondary* releases if the primary one is not 8-bit.
Quoted for truth, as the colloquialism goes. I'm all for making 10-bits the "default", but I'm also for keeping an 8-bit "fall-back". I'd be satisfied with EITHER 720p or 1080p, as long as I don't have to dig all the way down into genuine SD (480p, for instance) territory.
As for the poll, it's a bit confusing. Strike that, utterly incomprehensible is more like it. KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid - two options, "Yes, go all the way, only keep the best no matter what!" and "No, make the best default, but keep an 8-bit alternative if the default is 10-bit." As things are now, you're dividing the "naysayers" into three categories, none of which they're likely to be sure fits their own thoughts.
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Does anyone know how well 10-bit playback works in the ARM environment? I have tried 2 tablets with ARM based processors and could not get ether one to play 10-bit video.
With Windows 8 supporting ARM based systems, this will be a concern that needs to be considered as well. ARM based Tablets are just the beginning, small form factor pc's and laptops will be making the jump to ARM as an options over the next year or two.
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As the encoder for one of the groups who does both regular 8-bit h.264 encodes and Hi10P encodes (along with XviD encodes) with SD material, I would rather have both 8-bit and 10-bit versions because I rather have our work readily accessible to as many people as I possibly can.
A good-looking encode does not mean anything if your target audience is unable to view it, and I don't feel it's fair to punish folks just because they may not have the computer expertise needed to set up their machine to watch higher-resolution h.264 Hi10P encodes and have a good experience doing so.
The target audience for our work tend to be older folks who use hardware players more often than your typical target audience of other fansubbers. I've been told to quit catering to them by various encoders in the fansubbing community, but I simply don't have the heart to do so.
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Does anyone know how well 10-bit playback works in the ARM environment? I have tried 2 tablets with ARM based processors and could not get ether one to play 10-bit video.
With Windows 8 supporting ARM based systems, this will be a concern that needs to be considered as well. ARM based Tablets are just the beginning, small form factor pc's and laptops will be making the jump to ARM as an options over the next year or two.
im testing the nixeus which is running the marvell armada 1000 series its an ARM based SoC
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With the growing popularity of smart phones and tablets, we inevitably spends more time watching videos on these devices. I think it would be useful to have SD videos available as a lot of the mobile devices lack support for HD / Hi10P videos.
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recently I have seen an increase in people (like user gits_jcl of this page http://bakabt.me/150080-koukaku-kidoutai-ghost-in-the-shell-stand-alone-complex-1080-ozc-anime.html ) who seem to have very high end home entertainment systems and Im sure that they have hardware that supports 10bit but I work at walmart...nuff said
I have a western digital hard drive player that takes the place of a media pc and lets a poor bumpkin like me view most current anime releases in HD without so much as a stuttering frame. The HD player plugs into my 40" lcd and allows me to watch my 2tb of archived anime without having to squint at my little craptop which wont play anything but SD
while this $80 gizmo works well 95% of the time, 10bit releases and anything with ordered chapters bugger it.
please for the love of anime dont do away with non 10bit releases as I may have to miss out on some really tasty new shows
TLDR: hardware issues make me vote keep 8bit until poor people like me can get up to date
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While I don't disagree overal, there are few points that I have to btich about.
1) I'm pretty sure that Fallout required like Pentium 90 and 16MB RAM (the game is superb tho!).
2) Thora announced the switch to 10-bit on their website; every release post has usage of high10 profile clearly stated in it. Also, one of their recent rips was made in 8bit preciselly on the ground that 10bit didn't seem to offer benefits for that anime. In other words, some of your disdain is misplaced.
You know which Fallout game I am talking about :P
It wasn't in the title on nyaa so the assumption was that it was a normal encode.
1) Better netbooks (AMD c-50/60 or E-350/450, dualcore Atoms) can/do come with 1366x768 screens. Same for 15.4" laptops build on the mentioned AMD chips. Also, it's not just netbooks. ULV chips used in slim laptops also tend to have rather low clocks and thus, performance. and note that all these can eb used for driving an external display or tv set sometimes (this scenario probably isn't a common thing though).
2) As for prefering quality.... it isn't the 10-bit torrents that are supposed to go - those have their place secured (unless the visually blow in which case the point is moot); it's the 8bit fallback torrents this is about. Thus the "preference for best quality" argument isn't really relevant here. It's really a question of keeping fall-back, *secondary* releases if the primary one is not 8-bit.
For those that can't math, 1366x786 is more than 720p and less than 1080p thus it makes sense to use 1080p fansubs.
And yes, many netbooks can run 1080p just fine.
I do not understand the whole quality argument. You buy an 8-bit BD, encode it to 10-bit, and play it back at 8-bit. So the source is 8-bit, thus 10-bit cannot add quality (unless you want to go into an argument that fansub groups should "enchance" the BD original...). Just up the bit rate, tell people to use EVR:CP with 32-bit floating point surfaces. Hell, a lot of information is lost using the default settings in EVR:CP in MPC.
TLDR: hardware issues make me vote keep 8bit until poor people like me can get up to date
I am sorry, what is poor about buying hardware that is just enough for your own needs?
I call that smart. Most people do not need high end hardware and it is a smart choice not to buy high end hardware.
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My netbook lags at Coalgirls' 720p 8-bit Bakemonogatari. It hasn't even been two years since I bought it. It simply /cannot/ play hi10p anime.
From the beginning, you need SD encodes, not 8bit encodes. You can play back 10bit 480p without problems.
Though I'd much rather have 8bit 720p. I can see a clear difference in quality between 480p and 720p, and most series I'd rather watch in 720p. Because of this, I want 8bit encodes to stay.
Also...I haven't seen a single 10bit 480p anime released. Not one. If Bakabt would somehow find a way to host 10bit 480p with good subs, and my netbook could handle it, then sure - but as far as I know, almost no fansub groups release in this format, and thus I cannot see this happen.
In the end, I really wouldn't mind watching 480p encodes. I've got a shitty netbook, so I've next to no right to complain about video quality (that is, according to most users' logic).
If I'm right, however, 480p is a lot smoother on my netbook than 720p (8-bit, that is), whereas my netbook can't even start playing 720p 10bit. I'll take a wild guess and say that if my netbook is indeed able to play 10bit 480p releases, it'll play them as smoothly as 8bit 720p releases, at most - In which case I'd rather have the higher resolution releases.
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As for ARM chips, those are generally less powerful than x86 ones and have low clocks, which means they will strugle with software decoding even more. They need to rely on hardware decoders which naturally don't support high 10 profile. Some sad cases even lack Neon SIMD (Tegra 2), making software decoding more than impractical...
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I do not understand the whole quality argument. You buy an 8-bit BD, encode it to 10-bit, and play it back at 8-bit. So the source is 8-bit, thus 10-bit cannot add quality (unless you want to go into an argument that fansub groups should "enchance" the BD original...). Just up the bit rate, tell people to use EVR:CP with 32-bit floating point surfaces. Hell, a lot of information is lost using the default settings in EVR:CP in MPC.
Just because YOU can't see the difference between an 8bit encode and a 10bit encode, does not mean the rest of us can't. If you can't see the banding in an 8bit, that's your own damn problem.
Let me put this in bold so that people will read it, and maybe finally understand it:
THE PURPOSE OF 10BIT IS NOT FILE REDUCTION! IT IS GETTING BETTER QUALITY THROUGH HIGHER COLOR ACCURACY THUS REDUCING BANDING AND HALOING! THE SMALLER FILE SIZE IS JUST A BONUS AND DOES NOT MATTER FOR MOST PEOPLE ENCODING IN 10BIT!
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2) As for prefering quality.... it isn't the 10-bit torrents that are supposed to go - those have their place secured (unless the visually blow in which case the point is moot); it's the 8bit fallback torrents this is about. Thus the "preference for best quality" argument isn't really relevant here. It's really a question of keeping fall-back, *secondary* releases if the primary one is not 8-bit.
Quoted for truth, as the colloquialism goes. I'm all for making 10-bits the "default", but I'm also for keeping an 8-bit "fall-back". I'd be satisfied with EITHER 720p or 1080p, as long as I don't have to dig all the way down into genuine SD (480p, for instance) territory.
As for the poll, it's a bit confusing. Strike that, utterly incomprehensible is more like it. KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid - two options, "Yes, go all the way, only keep the best no matter what!" and "No, make the best default, but keep an 8-bit alternative if the default is 10-bit." As things are now, you're dividing the "naysayers" into three categories, none of which they're likely to be sure fits their own thoughts.
Good point. I agree with these 2.
1. The poll sure seems a bit confusing because there are mainly 2 groups of people
(1) go 10bit all the way... and
(2) just wait a bit and keep some 8bit fallback
But it's 3 devided choice for the group (2) here :-\ Anyway I think bakabt staffs are pretty smart and would have realized this.
2. Don't underestimate the number of users who've got only notebook to watch nowadays HD releases, especially 1080p.
Notebooks are often decorated with good looking stuffs (like beautiful wide screen) but got surprisingly low processing power, even on just last year expensive notebooks.
and there are some, if not many, who use notebook connecting to their BIG screen watching things (Obviously Desktop PC isn't easy to get moved around)
One more thing, from what I have seen
there are many people who aren't quite capable of upgrading their stuffs within every few years.
(Especially Laptop is hard to upgrade or modify, mostly they just have to buy a whole new one. :o)
It's not like I lived in a 3rd world country or something, but there are many people who aren't quite rich.
(and there are folks who naturally just not smart enough getting into setting things or software stuffs. ;) Some ladies completely blind about what does 'codec' mean, let alone things like 'MPC+LAV filters+MadVR' )
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Yes, that's rigt. The main purpose for 10bit is improving quality, less banding, better coloring.
Yeah! I really love this ;D (file size is a good bonus though)
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I believe I've got a very simple approach to the matter at hand. Load file, open file, works fine = good / load file, open file, doesn't work = bad. I really don't care how it is done, only the results matter. So far 10-bit releases work but are full of glitches and go to waste bin, where they belong. Therefore my position is : wait and see.
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Let me put this in bold so that people will read it, and maybe finally understand it:
THE PURPOSE OF 10BIT IS NOT FILE REDUCTION! IT IS GETTING BETTER QUALITY THROUGH HIGHER COLOR ACCURACY THUS REDUCING BANDING AND HALOING! THE SMALLER FILE SIZE IS JUST A BONUS AND DOES NOT MATTER FOR MOST PEOPLE ENCODING IN 10BIT!
/thread
The main reason why my 480p is now in 10-bit as well.
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i think, due to lack of dedicated hardware (standalone mediaplayers) support, that 8-bit should still be supported.
it's nice that the pc is fully supporting 10bit, but mediaplayers, which are more and more common, mostly dont support it..
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BakaBT has never cared for any hardware mediaplayer in the past, so there's no reason to start now.
There are multiple reasons why even 8-bit release may not play correctly on a hardware mediaplayer, including but not limited to:
* ordered chapters support
* softsubbing, especially more complex typesetting
* number of reference frames used etc.
Because of this, there was never any guarantee that every 8-bit release would play on hardware standalones, and it was never a factor in the approval process, so it shouldn't be a factor now.
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Well, technically, High Profile 10 bit was made so as to surpass 8 bit ones....its got better color quality, and at the same time, it requires less bandwidth and less space....a good advantage....
so, should we be dumping the 8-bit releases??
honestly, the answer to this is not having a technical aspect entirely....
1. 10 bit releases are superior, but it will take time for *all* of the machine users to have media players and hardware that support 10 bit fully....if u live in a developed country then u may be all on the hi-fi end of the spectrum (no offense meant people.. :P ), but please spare a penny for the guys who are not fortunate enough to have the necessary hardware and software to run 10 bits, which regarding BakaBt's high amount of users, may be *many* (a wild guess, no one knows until a poll is launched)....
2. Many use other devices, like tablets and stuff....which may sometimes not be supporting 10 bit releases...
3. 10 bit generally has slower encoding...and decoding too....
but, nonetheless, 10 bit should be adopted, not suddenly, but the change should be gradual enough.... ;D
for example, think of cell phones which have got touch screen and the ones having manual keypads.....touch is good, and is the next level in tech, bt not all people can afford it, so both are there at the present in the mobile market....in the next decade or so, keypad phones will be obsolete.... 8)
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10 bit is the future but you can't force it on people . I won't go in technical comparison between 8 bit And 10 bit. 10 bit can be played most of the well known codecs but this is the start . Madvr which is recommended for playing 10 bits itself is Nascent development stage. Its for the anime downloaders to decide . If they support 8 bit 0r 10 bit , they should download that and set the record straight. For me , its 8 bit for now and some 10 bit here and there! :)
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The only thing that matters with 10-bit right now is the compability IMO. If there are 10-bit and 8-bit release, and the 10-bit one is better, then it should be the one that gets approved. I don't know much about the technical difference in 10-bit and 8-bit, though I've seen difference when comparing 8-bit and 10-bit encodes. I think 10-bit release doesn't always make a release the best. There's surely more benefits that came with the 10bit, but it doesn't mean that encoding something in 10bit will suddenly make the release awesome. My point is, if for anime 'X' there are 8-bit and 10-bit release, but the 8-bit one has the better video quality, then it should be chosen instead of the 10-bit.
And also, based on my experience, if we could play 8-bit videos fine, then there won't be problem playing the 10-bit one. But there are many people that are still unable to play 10-bit release due to codec issues. So I think BakaBT should update the playback guide, for all operating systems, and also give instructions on setting the codecs to achieve best performance, especially on OS like Mac OSX which still doens't have any good video player afaik. ;)
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Yibis started doing 10p releases and I've noticed about a 10% increase in GPU usage with CoreAVC. from 2-5% to 12-18% (on most 720p anime and in the upper 20% with 1080p anime). Not a huge increase but it does concern me that some glossier subs will cause GPU usage to skyrocket and possibly make viewing unpleasant.
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accepting both is not that bad if you ask me
as long the community wants it
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Though I'd much rather have 8bit 720p. I can see a clear difference in quality between 480p and 720p, and most series I'd rather watch in 720p. Because of this, I want 8bit encodes to stay.
Also...I haven't seen a single 10bit 480p anime released. Not one. If Bakabt would somehow find a way to host 10bit 480p with good subs, and my netbook could handle it, then sure - but as far as I know, almost no fansub groups release in this format, and thus I cannot see this happen.
In the end, I really wouldn't mind watching 480p encodes. I've got a shitty netbook, so I've next to no right to complain about video quality (that is, according to most users' logic).
If I'm right, however, 480p is a lot smoother on my netbook than 720p (8-bit, that is), whereas my netbook can't even start playing 720p 10bit. I'll take a wild guess and say that if my netbook is indeed able to play 10bit 480p releases, it'll play them as smoothly as 8bit 720p releases, at most - In which case I'd rather have the higher resolution releases.
Hmmm... what is the resolution of the screen of your netbook? Generally, since SD encodes usually are viewed as the small, compatibility fallback variant, they are indeed worse in quality to their 720p variants. But... if your netbook is less than or equal to 1280 pixel width, a good SD encode should prove almost indistinguishable to 720p. I think. Have only really tested it on 1024x768 screen, and even then I usually watch 720p there, since I have enough full hd screens at home, so that if I decide to watch it on my laptop for example, I wouldn't be forced to use madVR on my sorry HD3400 to get a decent result.
Anyway. Something more. I know a guy that only watches complete series. I know that there are a lot of such guys. They are actually are just starting to bump in the problem of updating their codecs only now, as 10bit got widely used only since this Fall season. I think this type of users of bakabt deserve to get some buffer period. So, at least till Winter is over?
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So far 10-bit releases work but are full of glitches and go to waste bin, where they belong.
Just a problem on your end as i see it.
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I have mixed feelings about this. 10bit encodes worked fine for me after some minor updates but there is a lot of people who will run into problems 10bit encodes. Maybe we can change the single audio/dual audio slots to handle this better. This could look like this:
Slot 1: Quality Slot
8bit and 10 bit are treated equally, as are multi and single audio.
Slot 2: Fallback
8bit only. Single audio is only allowed if no multi audio is available.
This could be a good alternative to keep the number of torrents reasonably small and make sure that at least one 8bit encode is available per category.
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Just because YOU can't see the difference between an 8bit encode and a 10bit encode, does not mean the rest of us can't. If you can't see the banding in an 8bit, that's your own damn problem.
Source is 8-bit thus a high bitrate 8-bit is the quality ultimatum and any encoding problems are due to the re-encoding.
If someone was serious about quality, they would release the uncompressed BD and stylized subtitles (not allowed here AFAIK).
The purpose of higher resolution video is crispness and detail preservation which is destroyed at lower resolutions.
This detail also goes away with reduction of file-size due to compression artifacts. This is probably the only thing anyone ever notices when it comes down to quality - aside form how well the kareoke effect is at the OP/ED. Many times people are influenced by a placebo (ex get 320kbps MP3 and put it in FLAC, tell someone that the FLAC one is lossless and better quality and ask them to compare the two in terms of audio quality) - that is, tell someone that A is better than B, and they will probably vote for B - this is whats happening right now.
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Even though I have a PC I built to handle just about anything that I ask it to do with ease, not everyone is able to say the same. Because this community is for everyone, I feel we should keep both 8 bit & 10bit and offer both, side by side for another 6 months to a year. By then, many members will have upgraded or moved on. 10 bit is the wave of the future, but it is too new to make a complete switch at this time.
I agree. I say make a plan to do a gradual change in about 6 months. I still have my 10 year old computer running. I'm hoping to get a new computer in a couple of months. It could handle pretty much anything then. And with the way the economy has been for the US lately, it makes me wonder how many more people are in my shoes where we're still running on the older devices using are money for silly little things like food. I'm all for change. I'm all for you guys doing less work. But I'm more for a slow change than a flip the switch now. That way everyone can decide what they want to do about the change and prepare for it.
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I (and others, I'm quite certain) suffer from agonising back pain which makes it impossible to sit in front of my computer watching anime for more than 15-20 minutes
at a time. :( Accordingly, I watch my anime lying in my bed, on my television set.
In order to do this, I have to first:
1.) Download the anime,
2.) Re-encode it from .mkv to .avi,
3.) Burn it to DVD (+RW in my case; I watch a *LOT* of anime...) and,
4.) Play it in my DIVX-certified DVD player.
10-bit anime has made doing this quite a bit more difficult - in some cases impossible - than it has been for me to date.
Some encodes [Nurarihyon / Phi Brain] just don'e re-encode well, even using the latest Xvid4PSP build. The sound is perpetually out of sync with the video.
I genuinely thought (until that latest build of Xvid4PSP came out) that I was going to have to give up watching anime altogether.
It's one thing to have Progress. I am all for Progress. It's another to be damned thoughtless and disenfranchise people who can't use the Latest, Greatest whizbang thing in their lives, making them miserable.
I voted to retain 8-bit shows, for those of us who AREN'T Tom Swift with his Craptastic Hyperflatulating Supercomputer, and the ability or desire to watch anime on it.
I dearly wish some of these TekKiddiez would consider OTHER PEOPLE once in awhile when they are shoving all of us into the Brave New World (Of The Moment). >:(
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IMHO, it is a bit too early to prune 8-bit encodes in favor of 10-bit ones.
I voted for continuing the current practice of parallel existence of 10bit and 8bit. Not that software support wasn't there, but for the sake of people that rely on dxva/gpu decoding in PC, or use a non-PC device, like some sort of TV set, standalone, game console, whatever. From these, it's probably only dxva/gpu that's really relevant, but that's not important. Imho there are merits for retaining 8bit in HD slots as well in SD slots.
As the encoder for one of the groups who does both regular 8-bit h.264 encodes and Hi10P encodes (along with XviD encodes) with SD material, I would rather have both 8-bit and 10-bit versions because I rather have our work readily accessible to as many people as I possibly can. A good-looking encode does not mean anything if your target audience is unable to view it, and I don't feel it's fair to punish folks just because they may not have the computer expertise needed to set up their machine to watch higher-resolution h.264 Hi10P encodes and have a good experience doing so. The target audience for our work tend to be older folks who use hardware players more often than your typical target audience of other fansubbers. I've been told to quit catering to them by various encoders in the fansubbing community, but I simply don't have the heart to do so.
What they said!
[And thank you, doll_licca!]
I think the fansub groups have already push up the 10bit trends rapidly (though by varying degrees).
At this rate, naturally and eventually, people got to adapt as time goes by already as it is now.
If it isn't too much of a problem, I'd say just wait a bit and let thing as it is now.
In this near future they are going to release only in 10bit anyway.
So if now Fansubbers still offer both 10 & 8bit version, I think there are a number of good reasons in their doing this.
I mean...fansubbers propels new things very fast already. In such a big home like bakabt this might be a little too harsh on someone?
Poor people > rich&adaptive people
Duki3003 edit:Don't double post.
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Source is 8-bit thus a high bitrate 8-bit is the quality ultimatum and any encoding problems are due to the re-encoding.
If someone was serious about quality, they would release the uncompressed BD and stylized subtitles (not allowed here AFAIK).
Stop posting this garbage. The increased precision of higher bit depth increases the compression quality no matter what the source bit depth is. A 10-bit encode will always be better than an 8-bit encode at identical settings and bitrate. This is a fact, plain and simple.
Also, Blu-rays are far from flawless sources. Sure, technically speaking the bitrates are high enough that you could have practically flawless video - but the Japanese are masters when it comes to the art of fucked up video encoding. I've seen tons of anime BDs myself, and things that I could call "flawless" are very much a rarity. So a properly filtered and sufficient bitrate encode from such a source can end up looking better than what the source was.
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Source is 8-bit thus a high bitrate 8-bit is the quality ultimatum and any encoding problems are due to the re-encoding.
If someone was serious about quality, they would release the uncompressed BD and stylized subtitles (not allowed here AFAIK).
Stop posting this garbage. The increased precision of higher bit depth increases the compression quality no matter what the source bit depth is. A 10-bit encode will always be better than an 8-bit encode at identical settings and bitrate. This is a fact, plain and simple.
Also, Blu-rays are far from flawless sources. Sure, technically speaking the bitrates are high enough that you could have practically flawless video - but the Japanese are masters when it comes to the art of fucked up video encoding. I've seen tons of anime BDs myself, and things that I could call "flawless" are very much a rarity. So a properly filtered and sufficient bitrate encode from such a source can end up looking better than what the source was.
No one is denying better compressibility of 10-bit. It is just that no one gives a **** about decreased file sizes (better compression) either.
You really shouldn't enhance the original video to suit your needs, whether it is sharpening/blurring/whatever.
Besides sharpening, blurring, and dithering for better gradients are all things that can be done between decoding and output on the client to suit the clients needs or lack of thereof.
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I'm not sure that I understand the argument about non-PC devices. Like, if I want to watch something on the TV via my usb player, more often than not, I need to re-encode the video. I thought it made sense to obtain the highest quality video, and tailor it to whatever the needs of my various devices were. There is a vast amount of devices out there capable of video playback, I never expected everything I got to be compatible with my specific needs.
Then again, perhaps not everyone is computer literate enough to know how to do a good job at re-encoding, after all, being able to watch anime isn't supposed to feel like it's rocket science. On the other hand though, everyone here - with computer skills or not - managed to figure out how to torrent, maybe those who claim to be computer illiterate have more competence than they think...
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No one is denying better compressibility of 10-bit. It is just that no one gives a **** about decreased file sizes (better compression) either.
You really shouldn't enhance the original video to suit your needs, whether it is sharpening/blurring/whatever.
Besides sharpening, blurring, and dithering for better gradients are all things that can be done between decoding and output on the client to suit the clients needs or lack of thereof.
Wow... just... wow. I can't believe someone can post something like this while being so sure of himself. First of all, people do give a care for decreased filesizes. You're only talking like that because you yourself doesn't care, but lots of people do care. Especially people from countries like mine where even having a 3mbps downstream is already a blessing.
Shouldn't enhance the original video? While I agree about the sharpening or blurring (which are mostly self-preference), something like debanding should be done, it's an artifact, only incompetent encoders won't even at least try to fix that (assuming the source actually do need it, debanding a source that doesn't need it is stupid). Not to mention ridiculous stuff like aliasing from upscaling, cross conversion etc. And why should you force the viewer to do the filtering themself? Anyone who knows a little bit about video filtering should know that many of the good filters are too heavy for real-time processing. You definitely don't deband a 1080p on the fly, not even with hardware accel (since none those filtering are hardware accelerated). Unless you have a powerful enough hardware in the first place, but then why are you complaining about 10-bit again? Also, those "enhances" (or fixes, as I prefer to call it) are most of the times too complicated for people without enough encoding knowledge, so why shouldn't the encoder who has enough knowledge on how to fix stuff up do that for them?
This is pretty off-topic since it's not exactly about 10-bit anymore but more towards encoding in general, and while I do prefer to treat 10-bit and 8-bit equally, even if BakaBT decides to still keep special slot for 8-bit then it won't bother me in the least, but your ridiculous post really baffles me.
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To adress some points said before...
1) Ordered chapters or fancy typesetting don't exactly break playback on hardware devices - skipped opening is nothing dramatic and you can watch the episode normally. Similarly, if the player (like the WD box) ignores fonts, gimmicks like blur tags or even positioning, nothing much is lost - as far as the script wasn't so broken that main dialogue lines would get unreadable.
2) "Better colors" in 10-bit - this is a misconception. Same for "less haloing". The only specific artifact it can help prevent is really banding - and that is only fro banding that woudl be introduced by x264, obviously not the case with banding being in the source. I heard form some people that sometimes encoding in 10bits can lead to better retention of hard-to-preserve detail, but that effect probably isn't too strong - and many other options can influence such things.
3) I think that in theory, 10-bit can hurt compression, because of the obvious cost of extra bitdepth. Usually, these costs are compensated by reduced rounding errors (which leads to less residual that needs to be coded) and more efficient prediction. However, it is plausible that cases could happen when the benefits would not manage to be significant enough and the extra cost would outweight them. I have no idea how likely such occurence is.
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@OnDeed: You're right, I myself have no idea where "better colors" come from. And I seem to remember kristen mentioning something along the lines of too low crf causes 10-bit to actually become larger than 8-bit, though I personally haven't tried myself.
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Yeah, at the same crf it usually ended up bigger for me (I use 10bit more or less as a cargo cult tool to get better quality, so...) too.
After all, there is no reason why same crf would result in "the same quality" for two encodes done with different options.
To see if quality really improved, you need to do two 2-pass encodes at the same bitrate (which can be tricky, since it usually won't hit the same number on both settings) and try to discern the differences. If one of the encodes isn't significantly better, it's usually hard to determine a winner, since it is often the case of "better here, worse there".
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Firstly, I agree with the complaints about the poll - my statistics lecturer would murder me if I tried to use a survey like that in any of my work. If you look at the numbers, there are actually more people who voted against treating 10bit and 8bit equally than those who voted in favour (195 vs 179 at the moment), but the poll does not clearly reflect that at all. If you make your judgement based on which option has most votes, then you're seriously biasing it in favour of one option over the others.
Now, personally, I believe the argument that we should avoid 10bit video because hardware players don't support it is silly. BakaBT doesn't cater to hardware players at the moment anyway; many high-end releases use ordered chapters, complex softsubbed typesetting, and other technologies that completely break hardware compatibility; this has not been considered an issue so far, and I don't think we should start worrying about it now.
That said, I'm personally not in favour of switching fully over to 10bit and treating it equally without keeping an 8bit fallback version yet. While I agree the quality benefit (at least in anime) is enough that it is definitely worth using for encodes, the technology just isn't mature enough to rely on it 100%, in my opinion. While it's true the most popular codecs among the anime community support it now, that's pretty much as far as it goes; and it's not like it works perfectly in all of those yet, either (CoreAVC still had a few bugs to work out when I last checked, for example), and there are plenty of other players and apps which don't support it properly yet. It's still pretty hackish on the encoding side too imo (though I don't know how likely that is to change any time soon, and frankly there are probably people much better qualified to comment on that than me).
My stance is to leave things as they are at the moment, and revisit the situation in a few months time. Give the technology a bit more time to mature, work out all the kinks, and get properly established, and I imagine there'll be no problems treating it equally in 4-6 months time.
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Taking both 10-bit and 8-bit releases for current series is indeed a mess. Also, the interest in 8-bit releases as a fallback also doesn't seem tremendously high, considering that a popular show like OreImo still only has a 10-bit 720p version here (and no SD upload either) That's why I'd ditch the differentiation for current series. With the whole lot of comparisons that need to be done, taking both creates too much additional work and splits the seeder pool unnecessarily. If users think they need an 8-bit H.264 or even an XviD encode, those are generally easily available.
However, the situation is a different for some older series. There is little work to be saved by keeping only one version, as comparisons have to be done either way. BBT is sometimes also the only source of older, more widely compatible encodes. That's why I'd wait with the phaseout of older encodes by new Hi10P uploads.
TL;DR Treat new uploads equally, but wait a bit longer with replacements for existing uploads.
PS: And yes, Hi10P is much preferable to 10-bit for searchability and tagging purposes. The reason why HiP never saw much of a use is probably because there was little need for differentiation. Most encodes probably use High Profile, and parameters like the profile level or the number of reference were much more useful to gauge whether an encode would play on one's POS hardware player.
Hi10P also has the benefit of referring specifically to a H.264 profile. "10-bit" could also mean e.g. VC-3/DNxHD with 10-bit sampling, which even your software player will most likely not support. That point might be moot right now thanks to H.264's dominance, but who knows what video codecs will come into fashion in the next years.
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Taking both 10-bit and 8-bit releases for current series is indeed a mess. Also, the interest in 8-bit releases as a fallback also doesn't seem tremendously high, considering that a popular show like OreImo still only has a 10-bit 720p version here (and no SD upload either) That's why I'd ditch the differentiation for current series. With the whole lot of comparisons that need to be done, taking both creates too much additional work and splits the seeder pool unnecessarily. If users think they need an 8-bit H.264 or even an XviD encode, those are generally easily available.
This is sort of true. Those of us that stay away from 10-bit (for the time being) wouldn't download, and therefor not seed, the 10-bit pool at all.
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Everything on this site can be found somewhere else, I use this site mainly as a filter.
There are many groups/people who offer Anime and Japan Stuff for download - I do not know which one is the best, it is sometimes hard to deduce this without tedious comparisons and well I do not know Japanese so I cannot tell the accuracy of subtitles.
I am worried that this switch will disable this site as a filter of 8-bit content so I would have to manually deduce the best 1080p sub available. There is only one reason to watch 720p subs when 1080p is available somewhere - it is called a Funimation BD.
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Taking both 10-bit and 8-bit releases for current series is indeed a mess. Also, the interest in 8-bit releases as a fallback also doesn't seem tremendously high, considering that a popular show like OreImo still only has a 10-bit 720p version here (and no SD upload either) That's why I'd ditch the differentiation for current series. With the whole lot of comparisons that need to be done, taking both creates too much additional work and splits the seeder pool unnecessarily. If users think they need an 8-bit H.264 or even an XviD encode, those are generally easily available.
Actually I'm thinking about this point too, but I have different view from you.
Both 10-bit and 8-bit releases need to be compared in the accepting process anyway if they treat them equally, therefore it's not quite much additional work here.
Conversely, I think it would be more of a problem on the user side who prefer only the 'ultimate one' version. Such a user(count me in) may have a little more trouble thinking "of this title, which 1080p one is the best?" if the staff didn't point out which one it is.
(10-bit isn't always the better, right? And if it's only slighlty better, maybe people will prefer the 8-bit one concerning consumption and else)
About the bigger seed pool, I'm not sure whether this will cause much problems. (the staff decision concerning this point is the most valid I think)
But if the fansubbers(whose tend to love 10-bit) release new animes only 10-bit anyway like you said (such as OreImo).
There is practically not much more of a problem as the trend automatically going this way, hence bakabt may doesn't necessarily narrows things further as it already is.
And if some specific title have both 10&8-bit version released, I'm sure they have a good reason behind it(l've seen the fansubber comes out warning about the 10-bit version themselves, like do not download if u don't have good pc)
ps : I'm fine with either hi10p or 10-bit tag. As long as it provides good result in searching and people understanding it, I don't care much if the word sounds uncool or technically wrong or something.
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While I am personally for treating 10-bit and 8-bit encodes equally, I see no reason for this poll or this thread. Most of the people posting here are clueless. Make an informed decision rather than trying to uphold an ideal of democracy.
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While I am personally for treating 10-bit and 8-bit encodes equally, I see no reason for this poll or this thread. Most of the people posting here are clueless. Make an informed decision rather than trying to uphold an ideal of democracy.
Exactly. I have no idea what's the difference. All I care about is to get some decent quality video/audio with good subs(i.e. not subs ripped directly from the DVD - ED I'm looking at you). If quality is important(and for archiving purposes it sure as hell is) then just put the decision making in the hands of those who actually know how the hell encoding works.
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While I am personally for treating 10-bit and 8-bit encodes equally, I see no reason for this poll or this thread. Most of the people posting here are clueless. Make an informed decision rather than trying to uphold an ideal of democracy.
Nyah, at least this thread keeps people informed about how thing goes ;)
Btw It's not discussion whether 10 or 8 is better here. It's about how to adapt properly and smoothly.
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I'm a Linux user and I'd still like to get 8bit encodes because 10P support is not stable enough for Linux.
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A valid point to raise with the community in my mind. Those who come here and join up are looking for quality. I wouldn't know an 8-bit from a 10-bit from a technical point of view, my opinion is based on what I see. Obviously whatever your system has or has not in the way of playing abilities will govern what you want to download. BakaBt's task is bringing the best to us lesser mortals, if 10-bit is the future, I see no reason to play catch up, be at the leading edge !! As for being clueless, well yes, that might be a valid point, as I had almost no knowledge of this stuff a few months ago, but I've already learned enough to be able to follow the Coalgirls setup guide for MPC-HC + madVR !! Downloaded Bakemonogatari (10-bit, 1080p) [ANE] from here and was mightily impressed with the quality of the video. Adapting to what's new is what it's all about. A yes vote here, keep at the forefront of things, and keep BakaBt a special place to visit.
Merry Christmas to one and all ;D
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I think a major consideration should be given to the highest translation quality as well, not just 8-bit or 10-bit. You could have the best picture but the worst translation.
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I think a major consideration should be given to the highest translation quality as well, not just 8-bit or 10-bit. You could have the best picture but the worst translation.
Translation quality should be above video quality imo.
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I'm a Linux user and I'd still like to get 8bit encodes because 10P support is not stable enough for Linux.
Nonsense.
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I think a major consideration should be given to the highest translation quality as well, not just 8-bit or 10-bit. You could have the best picture but the worst translation.
Translation quality should be above video quality imo.
Agree :)
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But if the fansubbers(whose tend to love 10-bit) release new animes only 10-bit anyway like you said (such as OreImo).
OreImo has other releases readily available. Under the current rules, we would have to take either Coalgirls or Kira-Fansubs as 8-bit BD encodes for the 720p slot, as well as Mazui or Doki TV rips for SD. However, there was apparently too little interest to offer those. (the TV rips might have previously been rejected to wait for BDs)
I think a major consideration should be given to the highest translation quality as well, not just 8-bit or 10-bit. You could have the best picture but the worst translation.
Translation quality should be above video quality imo.
Agree :)
Al of you, that's one of the reasons we have a category D.
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After giving the issue a serious thought,
I feel that even though 8bit isn't top of the line, if the 10bit is done correctly(size smaller, same quality), it should still be able to obtain a Group: A slot. This because 8bit with less faults still beats a slightly worse done 10bit. While i'd think the best encode possible should normally only be classified as Group: A (which is 10bit), it seems more logical to compare the quality of the encode. The quality, to me, is worth a lot more than the technology used in the encode.
(OT: First post on forum!!!)
OPHION OUT!
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i'm all for quality, but only as long as the quality of the fansubs is worthy
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@ Linux and OSX users: stop embarassing yourselves and get a recent version of mplayer2. Or a nightly build of VLC 1.2 (for real! they support ordered chapters, libass and 10bit. Hell froze over or something).
While I am personally for treating 10-bit and 8-bit encodes equally, I see no reason for this poll or this thread. Most of the people posting here are clueless. Make an informed decision rather than trying to uphold an ideal of democracy.
^ * this
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I'm a Linux user and I'd still like to get 8bit encodes because 10P support is not stable enough for Linux.
Even in Debian Squeeze, 10bit support is quite stable. Just install both ffmpeg and mplayer/mplayer2 package and use ffplay or mplayer or any other GUI front end. They both support 10bit. VLC can also do the job, but it's a CPU hog compared to ffplay/mplayer (usually less than 20% CPU of my 2.6GHz Core 2 Duo).
The real problem is, 10 bit does not necessarily guarantee a better quality video! There are many 10bit videos on Baka, but they are no way better (or worse) than their 8bit counterparts. Besides, as reported in this thread, some users do find it problematic to demux 10 bit videos!
So just stick to the KISS rules! Whichever version comes with better quality, stays in Baka.
To test video quality, I suggest capturing exactly the same frame using ffmpeg and then using difference function in imagemagick to compare the snapshots from different versions.
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The real problem is, 10 bit does not necessarily guarantee a better quality video! There are many 10bit videos on Baka, but they are no way better (or worse) than their 8bit counterparts.
I'm gonna ask you to back that up. Every 10-bit release accepted here have sufficient advantage/quality over the 8-bit version. Otherwise it would be pointless to accept them.
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The real problem is, 10 bit does not necessarily guarantee a better quality video! There are many 10bit videos on Baka, but they are no way better (or worse) than their 8bit counterparts. Besides, as reported in this thread, some users do find it problematic to demux 10 bit videos!
What are you talking about? Everything on Baka is pretty much the best version. Also... why would you demux 10bit videos?
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Or a nightly build of VLC 1.2 (for real! they support ordered chapters, libass and 10bit. Hell froze over or something).
Nightly builds are usually unstable so that's no excuse. After that nightly becomes a stable release then I believe it makes sense that you present that to us as you are.
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Nightly builds are usually unstable so that's no excuse. After that nightly becomes a stable release then I believe it makes sense that you present that to us as you are.
You're conveniently ignoring the rest of his post. mplayer2 is stable and platform independent.
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I'm not sure if many people are misunderstanding, so let me make something clearer.
This is not about lets replace all 8-bit content with 10-bit, because OMG it's 10-bit. It's about should we treat it equally, as in compare content of all groups both 10-bit and 8-bit, and decide on the best we'll accept based on subs, video quality etc or delay for a few more months and pile up torrents.
The poll basically gives 3 choices - 'Yes', 'No' and 'I don't care' with the addition of option 'Yes' having sub options 'Everything', 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit A slot' and 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit C slot' which would only be filled only if there was a 10-bit torrent offered when we already have an 8-bit uploaded.
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I understand what you are saying, but I think the correct option should be to move the "Best 8-bit" offer to the D slot if a better 10-bit one comes along. The only reason for this is because anything not X86 can not play back 10-bit correctly at this time.
When transcoding software gets as good (and easy) as handbreak to let useres of ARM based systems convert 10-bit to 8-bit for hardware accelerated playback then you should drop the 8-bit from D.
MeGUI and other tools are good for a very technical person to use, but not most people. Handbreak is even to hard for a lot of people.
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The poll basically gives 3 choices - 'Yes', 'No' and 'I don't care' with the addition of option 'Yes' having sub options 'Everything', 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit A slot' and 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit C slot' which would only be filled only if there was a 10-bit torrent offered when we already have an 8-bit uploaded.
I and others have interpreted all options but the first one as "No", to some degree, rather than "yes". As I mentioned earlier, your poll is highly obfuscated and should be remade, as I now know for sure I voted erroneously and I am sure others have as well.
What I want, and from this thread it seems I'm not alone, is for BakaBT to provide (when available) an 8-bit alternative in case the "best quality" (as per the site guidelines) encode is 10-bit. I'm interested in 720p, others are interested in 1080p or 480p, but that simple basic - an 8-bit alternative when available, at least for now - I believe you would find a majority willing to stand behind.
Proposed formula of new poll:
"As BakaBT has as a goal to provide the best quality available, we will start making 10-bit encodes the default, when the encode in question is of a quality that exceeds that of 8-bit alternatives. In regards to 8-bit encodes when a 10-bit encode is the default, should we:
A) Not have any 8-bit encode, since the best is enough?
B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons?
C) I don't care, do whatever you feel like."
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And your option B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons? is exactly the reason for the different options in the poll. You say have an (1) 8-bit encode, but for which slot? If you in fact want several, for each slot, then you should just choose the last option in the poll.
Keep in mind that if you do want the last option in the poll, it creates the potential for 3 slots (A,B,C) * 2 (single audio, dual audio) * 2 (10-bit, 8-bit) + 1 (D slot) = 12 +1= 13 releases for a single series/OVA/movie. Think upon the amount of work that would mean for the staff, and the amount of split seeders.
If you don't want an alternative for all the slots, that's where the second and the third poll options should be used.
In conclusion, I think the poll is well done and hopefully will help simplify and improve the approval process.
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I am okay with either. Both 10-bit and 8-bit play just as well on my desktop (using the latest CCCP). If 10-bit offer advantages in size over 8-bit, then I'd gladly opt for them.
On another note, it'd be great if you guys could provide links of some codecs/players that play 10-bit well. Many people aren't able to play 10-bit because they are unaware of the codec packs or players that can play them.
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Do you mean like this (http://wiki.bakabt.me/index.php/Hi10P)?
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I am okay with either. Both 10-bit and 8-bit play just as well on my desktop (using the latest CCCP). If 10-bit offer advantages in size over 8-bit, then I'd gladly opt for them.
On another note, it'd be great if you guys could provide links of some codecs/players that play 10-bit well. Many people aren't able to play 10-bit because they are unaware of the codec packs or players that can play them.
Every major codec pack supports 10-bit; it only needs to be updated.
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For me, it's simple. My media player device will not play 10 bit. I don't watch this stuff on my PC (can't really invite friends over to huddle around my computer hutch and besides, my attempt at playing 10 bit on my PC was fail anyway), so if we're evolving toward an all-10-bit scheme, then eventually I'm gone. The thing that strikes me as odd about this debate is that this is the only place I've yet encountered 10 bit encodes. Haven't run across a single one at any of the various and sundry places I go for non-Asian movies and television shows.
But, it's not all about ME, so do whatever you think is best for the site. I'm just presenting my personal situation for the record. :)
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Keep in mind that if you do want the last option in the poll, it creates the potential for 3 slots (A,B,C) * 2 (single audio, dual audio) * 2 (10-bit, 8-bit) + 1 (D slot) = 12 +1= 13 releases for a single series/OVA/movie. Think upon the amount of work that would mean for the staff, and the amount of split seeders.
If you don't want an alternative for all the slots, that's where the second and the third poll options should be used.
In conclusion, I think the poll is well done and hopefully will help simplify and improve the approval process.
Sorry, but there is absolutely no way any show would end up with 13 releases. That would only happen if there is a 10-bit dual audio version that is better quality than an 8-bit dual audio, that is better quality than a 10-bit single audio, that is better quality than an 8-bit single audio. For every single slot. Plus a special release in group D.
That is obviously not going to happen; as you can see from looking at current shows, in practice there isn't going to be more than 1 or 2 8-bit alternatives at most. Besides, since all offers need to be compared regardless of the outcome of this discussion, there should be very little extra work added for staff no matter what system is decided upon.
The poll basically gives 3 choices - 'Yes', 'No' and 'I don't care' with the addition of option 'Yes' having sub options 'Everything', 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit A slot' and 'Allow a dedicated 8-bit C slot' which would only be filled only if there was a 10-bit torrent offered when we already have an 8-bit uploaded.
I and others have interpreted all options but the first one as "No", to some degree, rather than "yes". As I mentioned earlier, your poll is highly obfuscated and should be remade, as I now know for sure I voted erroneously and I am sure others have as well.
What I want, and from this thread it seems I'm not alone, is for BakaBT to provide (when available) an 8-bit alternative in case the "best quality" (as per the site guidelines) encode is 10-bit. I'm interested in 720p, others are interested in 1080p or 480p, but that simple basic - an 8-bit alternative when available, at least for now - I believe you would find a majority willing to stand behind.
Proposed formula of new poll:
"As BakaBT has as a goal to provide the best quality available, we will start making 10-bit encodes the default, when the encode in question is of a quality that exceeds that of 8-bit alternatives. In regards to 8-bit encodes when a 10-bit encode is the default, should we:
A) Not have any 8-bit encode, since the best is enough?
B) Present an 8-bit encode as an alternative when available, for compatibility reasons?
C) I don't care, do whatever you feel like."
Whether they should be treated equally and, if not, what alternatives should be provided, are two different questions. Trying to mix them into one isn't going to work. Really, it needs to be two separate questions: "Should 10-bit and 8-bit be treated equally? [YES/NO] If no, what alternative should be provided? [DEDICATED 8-BIT SLOT A/8-BIT SLOT B/8-BIT ALTERNATIVE FOR ALL SLOTS]"
There's no need to change the current poll anyway, since you can infer the answers to the above from the current one. You can see how many people are against by adding the last 3 options together; which alternative they prefer can be decided based on which of those 3 got most votes. Right now, more people are in favour of providing some kind of alternative; since all 3 alternatives are almost exactly equal, the staff may as well just do whichever is easier for them of those three (assuming the results don't change significantly by the end of the poll).
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For me, it's simple. My media player device will not play 10 bit. I don't watch this stuff on my PC (can't really invite friends over to huddle around my computer hutch and besides, my attempt at playing 10 bit on my PC was fail anyway), so if we're evolving toward an all-10-bit scheme, then eventually I'm gone. The thing that strikes me as odd about this debate is that this is the only place I've yet encountered 10 bit encodes. Haven't run across a single one at any of the various and sundry places I go for non-Asian movies and television shows.
But, it's not all about ME, so do whatever you think is best for the site. I'm just presenting my personal situation for the record. :)
Same as you, i have a netbook with monocore Atom and Ubuntu x86 and Nvidia ION : thanks to VDPAU and mplayer i can watch any 8bit mkv up to 720p (i prefer 480p because i don't care about graphics, only about story :)).
Thanks to a special build i can play 10bits (https://launchpad.net/~ripps818/+archive/coreavc (https://launchpad.net/~ripps818/+archive/coreavc)) but VDPAU (still) cannot work so my poor Atom dies immediatly ;D
So i stick to 8bits (and will avoid/drop only-10bits encoded serie) but perfectly understand the needs for future standard. The only thing i don't like, not on BakaBT, is the way this issue is managed/discussed on some major fansubs sites like "8bits = retarded & stupid people, 10bits = the master race". Seems to me some people only like to have the biggest one :laugh:
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^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...
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One correction to several other posts: 10-bit does take a substantial extra bit of CPU juice, and there is no GPU support to take the sting out of that. It is disingenuous to pretend that "most" old hardware that plays 8-bit can play 10-bit. Simply not a true statement, so please stop making it. I still advocate the rollover to a 10-bit world, but let us please keep the discussion honest. Quite a lot of folks will suffer, being stuck with lower powered hardware. I know: I am one of them. I hope in a year's time to be able to fix that, with a little luck.
Try this http://imouto.my/configuring-potplayer-for-gpu-accelerated-video-playback-with-dxva-or-cuda-and-also-high-performance-software-decoding/?utm_source=BlogGlue_network&utm_medium=BlogGlue_Plugin#Hi10-pnotes
The AMD 6850 that i use is able to run 1080p 10bit without much trouble, sometimes (actually only during heavy opening and ending) you see some framedrops but for the rest it works.
ps. would like to see they keep at least a 720p 8bit version for all the media-player, ARM and other mobile or low power devices.
For the rest 10bit is the way to go I think.
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My opinion on the topic: besides of starting to see people discussing (or complaining) about these 10 and 8-bit things in the last few months I myself don't really know anything at all about it. I might have downloaded and played some of them when taking the latest shows I wanted episode by episode without even knowing it is 10bit (how can one find out?), but so far my PC could play everything I downloaded. And as long as it played, it's convertable for my purposes.
Still to me this all has once more the look of "quality" nowadays only meaning "most hardware using" anymore (just like sloppy coded games), which I find sad. Then again, if I don't like a version offered here, it's not like the only place in the internet to download fansubs would be here.
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By the way, I'm not an admin here, but I do know that they'll throw out a Hi10P offer if they feel it gives no advantage over an 8-bit encode, or if there are other factors that make them feel it's not worth taking the Hi10P offer.
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^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...
there is no Linux limitation : i dont' watch 1080p release because my netbook res is 1366 x 768 so it's kind of stupid to watch 1080p release here ;D when i played a 8-bit 720p the CPU is really low (the GPU temperature goes very high so VDPAU works well).
i once tried a 1080p movie mkv and it kind of freeze just at the beginning so i guess that's the limit but as i said this kind of hardware (netbook, even laptop) are designed to watch 720p releases because of the resolution. i'm not a 50" TV super mega 1080p target audience (and i will never be).
and VLC does not work well on Ubuntu (no GPU acceleration) : i'm limited to version 1.1.x because i'm on Ubuntu LTS (so i cannot watch 10-bit with beta VLC 1.2.x and must use mplayer2 which can not support VDPAU ... the circle of 10-bit NO GO is fulfilled :D)
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^
I have to correct you, you can watch up to ~50Mbit 8-bit 1080p according to NVIDIA on ION.
"up to 720p" limitation for 8-bit is probably Linux imposed; you probably ain't using the GPU at all...
there is no Linux limitation : i dont' watch 1080p release because my netbook res is 1366 x 768 so it's kind of stupid to watch 1080p release here ;D when i played a 8-bit 720p the CPU is really low (the GPU temperature goes very high so VDPAU works well).
i once tried a 1080p movie mkv and it kind of freeze just at the beginning so i guess that's the limit but as i said this kind of hardware (netbook, even laptop) are designed to watch 720p releases because of the resolution. i'm not a 50" TV super mega 1080p target audience (and i will never be).
and VLC does not work well on Ubuntu (no GPU acceleration) : i'm limited to version 1.1.x because i'm on Ubuntu LTS (so i cannot watch 10-bit with beta VLC 1.2.x and must use mplayer2 which can not support VDPAU ... the circle of 10-bit NO GO is fulfilled :D)
do you sure vdpau is running?
mplayer2 support vdpau even better than mplayer (which im using), you need to specify the video output drivers(vo=vdpau) and video codecs(vc=ffmpeg12vdpau,ffwmv3vdpau,ffvc1vdpau,ffh264vdpau,ffodivxvdpau), im not sure about settings on mplayer2vdpau works like a charm on mplayer2 for me, the settings are the same
also, im not sure about vdpau support on hi10p(that's why this post is made), dont test it on hi10p
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on the PC watching either 10-bit or 8-bit is ok but what about media-players? I mean hardware media-players which comes as box with Ethernet slot so you can connect it to NAS and watch HD anime on your huge TV-set. AFAIK there is no one such device on market now which can support 10-bit coding.
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Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
While Media Player Classic does a great job of playing 10-bit files , it's user interface
sets the U.I. back 20 years . And when sitting in a theater type environment the stark white
folder you have to use to choose what you want to watch just kills your eyes.
If there was a Media Center style library that would launch my media in Media Player Classic
I would then be pacified till set top hardware caught up .And jump on the 10-bit band wagon as well .
But I have yet to find one that works any where as smooth WMC7 or other set top players with a remote or mouse.
If you know of one then I would like to see it.
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also, im not sure about vdpau support on hi10p(that's why this post is made), dont test it on hi10p
VDPAU doesn't support hi10p and it will just crash if you try. AFAIK adding support wouldn't even be possible due to limitations in nvidia's hw decoder implementations.
on the PC watching either 10-bit or 8-bit is ok but what about media-players? I mean hardware media-players which comes as box with Ethernet slot so you can connect it to NAS and watch HD anime on your huge TV-set. AFAIK there is no one such device on market now which can support 10-bit coding.
and
Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
This is the biggest issue. Decent laptop/dektop computer would still be able to play 10bit stuff without hw decoding (well, at least upto 720p), but with htpc and media streamer devices you are completely out of luck.
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I think there's another issue here that isn't being addressed. On many shows, particularly the older ones, there is a certain amount of detail and no more. Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space. I don't know what this limitation is. But I'm not in favor of needlessly wasting my storage space with downloads that don't have to be that big to play well. Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance. Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that. (I've not seen this happening yet, but that's the direction this whole thing is heading.) I'm already downloading shows that get some lag in the dialog without the CPU being dedicated to doing nothing other than running the player.
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SLOT B: Dedicated 720p 8bit, where are you??
And how about an exception that specifically states that Hi10P is *NOT* a great reason for bloatcoder munchkins like Coalgirls to happily turn their already ridiculous up-to-900mb 720p rips into over 1.1 gig 720p rips, and churn out 2+ gigabyte FullHDs. OR JUST BAN [COALGIRLS] FROM SLOTS A&B ENTIRELY ALREADY. Cause it's not just the size, it's the 0.00% quality gain + nasty habit of appropriating others' subs and stacking them onto their not in the least superior but MUCH more bloated encodes, and then getting credit like they actually did something.
Case in point: recently spent like 2 hours staring from 2 inches away at a 46" fullhd screen, comparing an 867mb not counting another 100mbs OP/ED Coalgirls (eclipse subs 720p) ep of FMA:B to the original 343mb Eclipse (720p, entire episode from start to finish, no separate OP/ED). Except for slightly WORSE colour saturation for Coalgirls, there wasn't a single damn difference... and it's like that every time, at best, or much worse than the smaller original in the worse cases... Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.
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There is no need to be quality fags. 1st of all you get to download all the encodes for free. So kindly stop harping about quality. Fansubbers should use their brains. They sub anime not only for fun but also for sharing with people who don't get access to anime in their country.They should see the bigger picture and at least take out dedicated 8bit 720p for every anime. 1080p 8 bit rips can be chucked. It should be cultivated as a standard practice for the coming 1 1/2 years . :police:
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They sub anime not only for fun but also for sharing with people who don't get access to anime in their country.
And who made you chief of fansubbing?
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Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.
Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.
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Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space. I don't know what this limitation is.
720x480Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance. Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that.
Dual layers, Blu-Rays.
Also not many even rip DVDs these days, most do just BDs.
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I didn't read through all replies so maybe I'm just repeating some arguments. I don't see any good reason for 10-bit encoding atm and here is why:
I can't play those files on my two laptops. One is a old PowerBook with no software support (VLC stopped supporting OSX 10.4 some time ago), the other is a Netbook with hardware video decoding chip which also doesn't support 10 bit videos. Someone here suggested I should get new hardware, but until recently I was unemployed and simply couldn't afford it.
What do we gain by using 10-bit encoding? Better efficiency, which means files that are a little smaller for similar perceived video quality. On the other hand bandwith and disk space are cheap, so I think if you want to have better quality the best way is to increase bitrate until you're satisfied. Those files will still play on all machines and everyone is happy. I like how the movie scene does it. They have strict encoding rules and non conforming releases are nuked. Those rules make sure all releases play on any software and hardware.
I don't want to stand in the way of early adopters, but please don't forget those of us that can't afford a new machine every two years.
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If you are worried about space buy another hard drive . Space is not the issue here. the ISSUE is PLAYABILITY!
I think there's another issue here that isn't being addressed. On many shows, particularly the older ones, there is a certain amount of detail and no more. Whatever the width x length is on the DVD is the maximum that you're going to be able to pull off of it without getting an upscale that just wastes data space. I don't know what this limitation is. But I'm not in favor of needlessly wasting my storage space with downloads that don't have to be that big to play well. Also, any file over 4.37 GB won't burn onto a standard DVD without using special procedures to chop it up, and doing that, saving multiple pieces, and reassembling and parity checking the result is a nuisance. Since the original published DVD held the show in its VIDEO_TS file, and it was under 4.37 GB, I don't see any reason for anything to ever get any bigger than that. (I've not seen this happening yet, but that's the direction this whole thing is heading.) I'm already downloading shows that get some lag in the dialog without the CPU being dedicated to doing nothing other than running the player.
First you support 10-bit because it saves space. Now you support bloated 10-bit calling it quality.You really should be a politician . I bet you would even vote in favor of S.O.P.A. and I.P.A.
If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid. ć°ćć
And I don't download your or CG's releases any more and I quit seeding them also. in fact I am in the process of replacing them all even if they are 8-bit. We should NOT support those who think they are too good to support us.
Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.
Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.
Duki3003 edit:Don't double post.
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If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.
I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.
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I (L) 10-bit(Y)
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If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.
I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.
Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.
Looking at the original post in this thread and the poll options, and then the arguments in the thread itself, it seems like most of the pro 8-bitters -- including myself -- are really more debating whether its actually time for this poll yet, where the opening posts states it is time and doesn't actually ask that question. Maybe a new poll would be the better bet?
If software support, and to an extent hardware support, was better then it is in it's current state -- minding that codec packs and VLC only apply to certain (the same use case, really) use cases -- I'd probably vote for getting rid of the dedicated 8-bit slot too. But as it currently stands, it feels very much like we're -- as a community -- compromising a little too much in order to move forward with this at the present time.
All the same, I'll support any decision made. It's not my site, after all.
For the record, any belligerent person screaming in another person's home should probably expect a gun to their head. ^_^
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I'm probably beating a dead horse to death-er... Not everyone has the money to upgrade their equipment. For example, I just built my first computer in 5 or 6 years. The machine I watched anime on was a Pentium 4 machine with Ubuntu 11.04 (Natty), but with the "Classic" Gnome desktop, because it can't handle Ubuntu's new desktop, "Unity". All of the software and codecs are up to date, but as it is, 8 bit playback is full of corruption of the video, because the hardware can barely handle it. 10 bit is impossible to watch on that old machine.
It took me 8 months to get the parts together to build my new machine, with an Intel i5 processor, but I'm single with no kids. Imagine people with families trying to upgrade their hardware - in THIS economy....
I say make the changes at a later date, and then phase the changes in gradually over time.
There seems to be an assumption that everyone has upgraded their hardware, but that assumption should not be made. NOT EVERYONE has new hardware. Look at me. I went from an Intel Pentium 4 machine to an Intel i5 based machine just this month, and look how long ago Pentiums were last thought about..... I'll bet a lot of you guys are thinking that everyone have been using Core Duo's or whatnot.... I know people who stopped using a computer - at home (to surf the web) (they go to the library and use the public PC's to check emails and whatnot) because their old Pentium III's don't support the latest web browsers, and they can't afford a new PC - yeah, in the United States - where I live.
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If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.
I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.
Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable. [...]
Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.
OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.
To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.
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Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.
I'm afraid you are wrong. It is irrelevant why that person was angry because they have no right to ask for pretty much anything. In the fansubbing world, you take what you get, and if you don't like it, you do it yourself. Not you, me, or anyone else has the right to dictate how anyone else releases their files. If I want to release a show that has never been available in 10bit black and white video, that is my own business, and you can either download it or not. Sure, you may make angry posts, but you have right to demand anything. I'm noticing that people who want 8bit are demanding quite a lot these day: dual releases (8 bit and 10 bit), 8 bit only, etc. Quite funny, if you ask me.
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Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
While Media Player Classic does a great job of playing 10-bit files , it's user interface
sets the U.I. back 20 years . And when sitting in a theater type environment the stark white
folder you have to use to choose what you want to watch just kills your eyes.
If there was a Media Center style library that would launch my media in Media Player Classic
I would then be pacified till set top hardware caught up .And jump on the 10-bit band wagon as well .
But I have yet to find one that works any where as smooth WMC7 or other set top players with a remote or mouse.
If you know of one then I would like to see it.
http://www.team-mediaportal.com/ (http://www.team-mediaportal.com/)
I just finished building a HTPC that utilizes this software. If set up correctly it plays 10bit flawless, but you can also let it use MPC as external player. I also recommend to use it with the streamed MP design plugin, looks really cool :D
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@DmonHiro
1) This topic is about how will bakabt pick stuff to be allowed. Nowhere is this a discussion about what encoders should or should not do.
2) It's an open question though if everybody really follows this sort of "ethos" you describe, since it is a bit on the conceited-dick side in fact. (no offense...)
Disclaimer: I do encode in 10-bit. (In SD only though. While I might get in a sort of a dilemma about it if I was about to release a HD rip in 10bit, that didn't happen yet... so I'm still entitled to patronise here I think.)
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OnDeen, you are right, of course. I was just answering to the posts about entitlement.
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Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable.
I'm afraid you are wrong. It is irrelevant why that person was angry because they have no right to ask for pretty much anything. In the fansubbing world, you take what you get, and if you don't like it, you do it yourself. Not you, me, or anyone else has the right to dictate how anyone else releases their files. If I want to release a show that has never been available in 10bit black and white video, that is my own business, and you can either download it or not. Sure, you may make angry posts, but you have right to demand anything. I'm noticing that people who want 8bit are demanding quite a lot these day: dual releases (8 bit and 10 bit), 8 bit only, etc. Quite funny, if you ask me.
What are you talking about? I was calling the person wrong, not agreeing with him.
Edit: Oh, I get it. No, my post was trying to agree with kureshii that the post from Jazzkatt was ridiculous. That's why I quoted kureshii and not Jazzkatt.
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If the only release of the anime series we want is in 10-bit or worse (bloated 10-bit as is the case with Coalgirls) ,then YES you are holding a gun to our heads. Releasing fan subs without regard for those who watch them is stupid.
I'm just going to leave this here for posterity, as a prime example of the oversized sense of entitlement some people have cultivated.
Yeah, the entitlement is pretty ridiculous. At the same time, maybe simply taking a step back and asking yourself why this person was so angry might be a little more reasonable. [...]
Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.
OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.
To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.
The thing you have to remember is that the current situation, 8-bit and 10-bit coexisting, was always considered to be a temporary measure. If you read the decision to allow these two types of releases, it was said that a reevaluation will happen when there is widespread software support for 10-bit.
So you can't say that the present situation is the standard, it's just a temporary and transient stage towards equal treatment of releases. This temporary situation is really a favor done to the community, in order to help them update their playback solutions, which for reasonably powerful computers now work without issues.
In conclusion, you wouldn't be taking anything away but a temporary exception.
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I come to BakaBT when I want to weed out the inferior. I think you guys are losing sight of the purpose of BakaBT if you expect them to cater to *everyone*.
Quality doesn't come without change and sacrifice. You may have to seed more than you want to, you may have to use a different video program, and you may have to keep your damn plugins up to date. If your computer sucks, you may have to buy a new one or just stick with SD or 720p video for now.
Also, you need to have reasonable expectations. Netbooks and tablets are not meant for high quality high definition videos, and due to their screen size they probably never will be meant for HD video. Laptops from 2007 are going to have trouble keeping up with today's technology. Remember that you are getting these videos for *free*.
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-snip-
Maybe we should look at it this way: the people that argue for 8bit here don't argue for taking anything away. If they win, the other side of the trench will still retain the 10bit they wanted - because for hi10p offers, nothing will change from current practice.
OTOH, if the 10bit side wins, 8bit offers will get purged, meaning a loss for the 8bit side.
To put it bluntly, the people with the "quality 1st"/"I love 10bit" votes actually propose to take something away from the others. Maybe they don't always realise that they act a little selfishly and lack consideration for others, but in any case proponents of this opinion should exercise more humility. This is why the people arguing for keeping 8bit have right to be angry at the hi10p crowd.
The thing you have to remember is that the current situation, 8-bit and 10-bit coexisting, was always considered to be a temporary measure. If you read the decision to allow these two types of releases, it was said that a reevaluation will happen when there is widespread software support for 10-bit.
So you can't say that the present situation is the standard, it's just a temporary and transient stage towards equal treatment of releases. This temporary situation is really a favor done to the community, in order to help them update their playback solutions, which for reasonably powerful computers now work without issues.
In conclusion, you wouldn't be taking anything away but a temporary exception.
I really have to agree with what was said in the quoted reply. The poll probably should have been something more along the lines of whether or not the transient stage is complete, along with options related to it. Such as --
- The transition stage should be considered complete, remove the dedicated 8-bit slots
- The transition stage should be re-evaluated in 6 months
- The transition stage should be re-evaluated in a year
I personally would have voted for 6 months if the above poll actually existed. My personal reasons being that my hardware is fine, but my software (A powerful HTPC, which is just a normal PC in a fancy box, running XBMC) isn't there yet.
Duki3003 edit: Trim your quotes!
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Actually, libav/ffmpeg still haven't fixed the incorrect colorspace conversion (10bit to 8bit dithering) that is used in MPlayer/MPlayer2/VLC/ffdshow. Similarly, the conversion hasn't to this point been fixed in the official x264 tree (you have to use patched builds to encode 10-bit properly). These are known for 4 months.
So I don't think the software landscape can really be called mature, even if these issues aren't critical.
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slightly off topic but when do you think youl have the right hardware to make 1080p 10 bit encodes ondeed ?
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I come to BakaBT when I want to weed out the inferior. I think you guys are losing sight of the purpose of BakaBT if you expect them to cater to *everyone*.
Quality doesn't come without change and sacrifice. You may have to seed more than you want to, you may have to use a different video program, and you may have to keep your damn plugins up to date. If your computer sucks, you may have to buy a new one or just stick with SD or 720p video for now.
Also, you need to have reasonable expectations. Netbooks and tablets are not meant for high quality high definition videos, and due to their screen size they probably never will be meant for HD video. Laptops from 2007 are going to have trouble keeping up with today's technology. Remember that you are getting these videos for *free*.
i don't see the point here : this post is about 8/10 bits encoding and how the community (fansubbers, "provider" like BakaBT and us, the public/fan) can handle/cope with the transition ... if it happens. we can migrate to 10-bit without losing SD releases : it seems to me you think we'll get only HD releases (so the technical issues some have with 10-bits decoding AND a large resolution that some hardware *like my netbook* can not handle).
as for me i'll be a target audience for SD 480p and HD 720p on 10-bit the day any player can handle it with GPU acceleration : i still don't see the point of 1080p even if BR source exists (maybe for movie and TV shows, even on these size is too much and the few times i watched 1080p vs 720p i really didn't see the difference *it was on a big TV*)
that's the problem i've got with your post : you mix 8/10 bits and SD/HD. and for the free argument ... well to me it's kind of "end of discussion, please upgrade and don't complain" one that i really don't like :-\
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slightly off topic but when do you think youl have the right hardware to make 1080p 10 bit encodes ondeed ?
It's actually not as much a problem of hardware available - I could do blurays (but right now I was wondering if 8bit would be perhaps better after all). But I don't have many candidates for such rips, except Bubblegum Crisis (now, if Zeorymer for example appeared on the web...). And maybe some stuff Dragon191 wanted to release, should he decide to not do it...
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The poll probably should have been something more along the lines of whether or not the transient stage is complete, along with options related to it. Such as --
- The transition stage should be considered complete, remove the dedicated 8-bit slots
- The transition stage should be re-evaluated in 6 months
- The transition stage should be re-evaluated in a year
I personally would have voted for 6 months if the above poll actually existed. My personal reasons being that my hardware is fine, but my software (A powerful HTPC, which is just a normal PC in a fancy box, running XBMC) isn't there yet.
Agreed. For the record, with the risk of repeating myself, I would vote for "6 months" too.
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The shit you say 10 bit is better than 8 bit-I've been to numerous forums debating this sordid subject-the supposed advantages-1-reduced banding-fact, I've seen numerous 8 bit encodes with little or no banding while I've seen 10 bit ones that looked like rainbows. 2-smaller file sizes-I've seen numerous 10 bit encodes that were 60 to 100 megs bigger than 8 bit ones which-incidently looked way better than the 10 bit ones. So shit on 10 bit being better than 8 bit encodes-all it did was break playback compatibility with hardware media players like the Popcorn Hour A300, anime subbers are known to be elitist stuckup jerks who jump on the newest gold plated Cadillac that drives by just because it's shiny and brand new-legends in their own minds. So again-bullshit on 10 bit encoding being superior to 8 bit.
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In the spirit of "elitist stuckup jerks", it would make sense to completely get rid of AVI/XVID encodes as 8-bit is the new XVID...
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After quite a while seeing on this topic, I would say in short (my sum up opinion)
'10-bit all the way' policy is still a bit premature.
But the deepest of my mind saying "I want whatever method that would make the accepting process fastest"
ps : the amount of 10-bit torrents on bakabt is just about 4 pages of browsing for now.
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@zrdb
1) Coming to this thread while bashing whichever option you don't like with insults and angry posts won't make your cause be heard, most likely it'll just show how immature you are.
2) This thread is talking about whether to 'treat 10-bit and 8-bit equally', which means that the 10-bit and 8-bit will be equally compared as well before acceptance. If the 10-bit is better, then take 10-bit. If 8-bit is, then take 8-bit. Similar to the Xvid/H.264 case, if the Xvid rip better than the H.264 (which happens in some rare cases), then take Xvid. So there's no reason for angry posts like yours; if the 10-bit really is worse then it won't be accepted anyway. (Though I'm really wondering, can you point out the 10-bit rip which is larger AND has more banding than the 8-bit? So far I've seen none, especially stuff accepted on BakaBT).
For "6 months wait period", it's already been 6 months since 10-bit rips first started to come out. In the end though, I don't really care the end result, since 10-bit's acceptance won't be affected by 8-bit of lower quality anyway.
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I come to BakaBT for the best quality. Seeing as in some cases currently the best possibly quality is only achievable with 10bit, the choice should be simple, 10bit. (With the uncommon exception of the superior 8-bit.)
Sure there was a learning curve in getting 10bit to work, and it certainly wont play on all of my hardware, but that' what the lower resolution releases are for, are they not? I believer that the vast majority of Laptop PC's (core2 duo +) and all desktops with 2 or more cores should be able to play 10bit @1080. (This describes 3 year old hardware.) If there are issues with playback seek help, I have the feeling there are more than a few ubernerds here who're happy to assist.
I will never have sympathy for users of netbooks and tablets.
They sing the same song in every forum - my netbook won't do x, I can't afford a PC.
If the switch to 10bit leaves you unable to watch 1080p/720p releases you will suddenly have a lot more free time. I suggest a part time job to fill that void while you gather funds for replacing your disposable netbook with modern hardware. This time be sure to do some research before you unknowingly handicap yourself.
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I'll go with whatever the staffs pick (even though I voted for second option). Since they are the one who will do most of the work. But if I can't play it, I'll find another source. Since technology is always moving forward anyway. :D
For me it's always "If you don't like it, then don't get it"
BTW what it is going to be called, Hi10P or 10 bit? (I choose Hi10P because it looks cooler :D)
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Transition should be made slowly, step by step. Such a sudden transition will only result to outrage. My machine can play 10-bit but the software is lacking. Either it plays properly with occasional "auto quit" or produce a lot of white noise that it hurts my ears.
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If the switch to 10bit leaves you unable to watch 1080p/720p releases you will suddenly have a lot more free time. I suggest a part time job to fill that void while you gather funds for replacing your disposable netbook with modern hardware. This time be sure to do some research before you unknowingly handicap yourself.
lol
That's harsh (no offense) ;D
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Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.
Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.
Here's a crazier idea: I might actually have told the truth about crawling over it comparing it virtually pixel to pixel for a couple hours. Cause I suffer from apparently compulsive idle curiosity. This shit's seriously pretty identical in quality, barring colour temperature (imho, original Eclipse was slightly better than Coalgirls w/Eclipse subs). Same amount of banding, even, and in the same places.
As to the gun to my head, well they sorta are... I did mention how a hi-bitrate coalgirls release tends to kill swarms for lower bitrate torrents using the same subs, yeah? Dead swarm = can't download it. Duh.
In any case, Hi10P offers yet another new way to bloat filesize via half-assed encode (yeah, a WELLMADE 10bit encode might actually lead to smaller files... but using the exact same settings, filesize will increase exactly 25%). As to the problem of bad encodes getting ARCHIVED on here (see bakabt's mission statement) while better versions effectively disappear when nyaa's swarms die, I just feel that the arrival of a technology that *can* decrease filesize but will clearly increase bloat in bad encodes is a damn good time to review how we evaluate and approve releases.
Do recall that bakabt is supposed to be choosing to archive THE BEST. And Coalgirls makes comparison extra-easy by using other people's subs. As such, any review of any possible Coalgirls offer simply MUST contain a comparison with the original subbers' releases and it MUST be significantly better to warrant approval.
Else, we're not just only wasting space and bandwidth, but also passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition. Some other BDrippers at least make a double tag, and some don't even take credit in filenames at all. And yeah, there IS in fact a crapload of newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
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In the spirit of "elitist stuckup jerks", it would make sense to completely get rid of AVI/XVID encodes as 8-bit is the new XVID...
That has been done some time ago though.
In the past XviD/AVI versions could be uploaded and they had separate slots, which doesn't happen anymore.
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Thing is, though, the promise of more bitrate kills the original torrent (of which I just had one file accidentally in this case, others lost to computer failure), and we're forced to download 2-3 times more and then actually suffer worse quality. THAT SUCKS.
Here's a crazy idea: don't download their releases. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Also, just because you can't see the difference, doesn't mean everyone can't. You've got some nerve stating your opinion as facts.
P.S. mate, unless someone else is masquerading as you, in a discussion between you yourself and a Coalgirls representative, BOTH of you agreed about the bloat problem and crap encoding.
"DmonHiro says:
ā[Coalgirls member:] Weād rather waste your bandwidth than our time.ā
Wowā¦ thatās some awesomely brutal honesty right there. Also really funny to read."
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I strongly oppose removing 8-bit releases.
My current system (Core2 Quad 2.5GHz) is just capable of playing 1080p 8-bit releases, and I'm not planning to buy a new system for at least another 12 months. In fact, I even found one 8-bit release that I can't even play properly: Roberta's Blood Trail, at the flashback scenes where they add a lot of animated noise.
It would help if codecs would utilize more cores, but currently they don't. (using CCCP)
I'm already disappointed that there's no 8-bit release anymore for Puella Magi Madoka Magica (http://bakabt.me/163444-mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-puella-magi-madoka-magica-1080p-10-bit-coalgirls.html).
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Wow someone's got a grudge.
@Aadieu: I'm no fan of Coalgirls myself (as in, unless there's nothing better than theirs, then I won't take theirs, but I will if there's no better option), but your statements are truly ridiculous.
but using the exact same settings, filesize will increase exactly 25%
Ever tried encoding 8-bit vs 10-bit yourself? If you haven't, then stop talking. I've done several tests back when 10-bit was just introduced, and in fact, for most sources, same setting still give smaller filesize for 10-bit. This decrease may be large or small, depending on the source. There are sometimes cases where 10-bit do produce larger filesize, but this is usually happen on very grainy anime with very low crf (as a comparison, Macross DYRl, which was grainy as hell, is still smaller in 10-bit than it is in 8-bit at crf 15, though it was only smaller by 2%).
review how we evaluate and approve releases.
Have you ever participated in a comparison done here? I have done so a couple of time and there's no need to review how BakaBT evaluate and approve releases. In fact, if your "review" means to solely ban Coalgirls, then it's much worse than what we have currently, which sticks to "whichever is better, we'll take it."
Do recall that bakabt is supposed to be choosing to archive THE BEST. And Coalgirls makes comparison extra-easy by using other people's subs. As such, any review of any possible Coalgirls offer simply MUST contain a comparison with the original subbers' releases and it MUST be significantly better to warrant approval.
They do, in fact. In most BD comparison I've seen the comparison to the TV rips is done as well.
passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition
Ever went to Coalgirls' site? They explicitly state whose subs they use there. The torrent offers on Baka also provides info on that (at least for the recent ones, I seem to faintly remember older ones sometimes don't have those info). They removed the original group's tag, but they don't claim that it was their subs. In the first place, who are you to complain about the work that other people do, and not your own work? Oh, and Coalgirls aren't the only one who use other group's subs, many other does as well.
newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
Is that Coalgirls' fault? They do state whose subs they use on their site, the info is also available here, if people still don't know whose subs they use, then it's their fault, not Coalgirls.
And as you say, this site is dedicated to quality. If the best quality happens to be using other's subs, then so be it. If Coalgirls happen to be the best quality, then theirs will be taken. If theirs aren't the best, then it won't be taken. Simple as that. So far you've only been saying about their release of FMA:B which, according to you, is inferior to the TV rips (which won't be allowed to be uploaded here in the first place), but that doesn't mean it holds true for every single one of their releases.
Oh, also, this is a thread about what to do about 10-bit and 8-bit offers, not a Coalgirls bashing thread. Feel free to bash them on their site if you want.
@Zom-B: Recent CCCP has multi-threaded version of ffdshow and LAV Filters.
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passing out credit to those who don't deserve it and disheartening fansubbers by slapping on the tag [Bloatgirls] for doing nothing productive whatsoever, yet removing the [Original Translator] tag, which is who actually deserves recognition
Ever went to Coalgirls' site? They explicitly state whose subs they use there. The torrent offers on Baka also provides info on that (at least for the recent ones, I seem to faintly remember older ones sometimes don't have those info). They removed the original group's tag, but they don't claim that it was their subs. In the first place, who are you to complain about the work that other people do, and not your own work? Oh, and Coalgirls aren't the only one who use other group's subs, many other does as well.
newfags who believe Coalgirls is a fansubber, and most Coalgirls watchers never know what group made the subs for the shows that they liked.
Is that Coalgirls' fault? They do state whose subs they use on their site, the info is also available here, if people still don't know whose subs they use, then it's their fault, not Coalgirls.
Indeed, is that Coalgirl's fault? the [TAGS] that don't name the fansubber obviously have shit-all to do with it.
Obviously, posting credit in your blog is a far better way of crediting work than, say: "LastExile 720p Complete (Zero-Raws - english subtitles muxed from a4e and aniboters)" {actual folder name in actual torrent, with admittedly not-so-great video quality... but still! }
As to uploading BDs, yeah, some people actually call for comparisons to TVrips, but most of the time, that comparison is reduced to "ooh, more bitrate woohoo pick that one!".
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Indeed, is that Coalgirl's fault? the [TAGS] that don't name the fansubber obviously have shit-all to do with it.
Obviously, posting credit in your blog is a far better way of crediting work than, say: "LastExile 720p Complete (Zero-Raws - english subtitles muxed from a4e and aniboters)" {actual folder name in actual torrent, with admittedly not-so-great video quality... but still! }
As to uploading BDs, yeah, some people actually call for comparisons to TVrips, but most of the time, that comparison is reduced to "ooh, more bitrate woohoo pick that one!".
Then feel free to ban every single re-releaser from your download list. Ban Coalgirls, THORA, Doki (they sometimes use others' subs, e.g. Madoka) etc. Me, I'd prefer quality. Note that most of the real quality fag also do a research on the subs that the re-releasers use, so it's not as if the work of the original group went unnoticed.
And you definitely have never participated to any comparison in this site if you can still say that.
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^ It is true that 'size = quality' is one of the easier comparisons one can make.
Additionally the whole "we benefited from 10-bit, our file sizes are as big or bigger now!" is a sign of needing to find a new distributor to download from.
*snip*
Stop using MadVR... (this is an assumption, it seems popular now but it is bad performance wise)
It is surprising how many performance issues can be fixed with "use DXVA when possible", "don't use VLC", "user CoreAVC", "use EVR:CP on V/7/8", "don't use MadVR"
Trading performance for quality one can do "don't deblock all frames" and "don't dither 10-bit" and "use Haali Renderer"
So 10-bit can be watched on lower-end (not low-end) hardware at a cost of quality.
That is some people will simply have to enjoy Hi10p at a significantly lower quality than Hi8P.
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madvr does use more cpu, but the quality is much better. it also does not dither the video to 8 bit
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Here's the problem, explained in a way I just hit upon whilst replying to a very nice PM by a helpful member of this forum.
Imagine a car which could ONLY be driven on the Left side of any road.
Or butter which could ONLY be spread on Bread.
Or a knife which could ONLY be used to cut Meat.
Would such products be considered acceptable for mass consumption?
And yet, that's what the 10-bit advocates are doing: forcing down the throats of anime-consumers something which can ONLY be guaranteed to work on a computer, properly equipped with the latest codecs. If you want to (or need to, in the case of some people for medical reasons) watch your anime lying down in bed or relaxed in a comfy chair which would put your line of sight too far away from your computer, you are just Out Of Luck with these people. They don't give a damn about anyone who doesn't fit THEIR profile of How Anime 'Should' Be Watched. It's their way or the highway, and anyone who complains that they like to watch it a different way, sir, gets nothing but a cold sneer and a nasty word as some sort of tech-feeb who can't get on the train with all of the 'Good People' who watch their anime "properly."
Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on. Excuse us for living.
(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.) ;D
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madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.
@Aerah: If your rig can't use madVR renderer for 10-bit then it also can't use madVR renderer for 8-bit. Since madVR itself does the processing in 16-bit (IIRC), 10-bit and 8-bit will give roughly the same load to the GPU (I say roughly because there are some stuff that does slightly make the two differ, but not by much I believe). And really, an old nvidia 9400MG with a measly 256MB of onboard video memory can use madVR on 10-bit, why can't you?
@bobthedog: There are also people who wants to watch 60mb anime, but BakaBT doesn't provide those since God knows when. By your logic, BakaBT should also accept those 60mb anime releases, since, you know, there are people who wants to watch their anime differently, right? Also, since years ago BakaBT never cared about hardware players anyway. And you can always connect a PC to your TV.
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Here's the problem, explained in a way I just hit upon whilst replying to a very nice PM by a helpful member of this forum.
Imagine a car which could ONLY be driven on the Left side of any road.
Or butter which could ONLY be spread on Bread.
Or a knife which could ONLY be used to cut Meat.
Would such products be considered acceptable for mass consumption?
And yet, that's what the 10-bit advocates are doing: forcing down the throats of anime-consumers something which can ONLY be guaranteed to work on a computer, properly equipped with the latest codecs. If you want to (or need to, in the case of some people for medical reasons) watch your anime lying down in bed or relaxed in a comfy chair which would put your line of sight too far away from your computer, you are just Out Of Luck with these people. They don't give a damn about anyone who doesn't fit THEIR profile of How Anime 'Should' Be Watched. It's their way or the highway, and anyone who complains that they like to watch it a different way, sir, gets nothing but a cold sneer and a nasty word as some sort of tech-feeb who can't get on the train with all of the 'Good People' who watch their anime "properly."
Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on. Excuse us for living.
(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.) ;D
I wish people wouldn't say stuff like this. Nobody is forcing anything down anyone's throat. The people that run this site have every right to do whatever they want with this site, end of story.
That said, some of us are trying to be reasonable about it when making our points. They, the site maintainers, have pointed out that hardware was never a consideration, but also pointed out that software was -- and that they believed software was where it needed to be. To me, this opens up software related arguments as it was clearly a consideration. People like me are simply attempting to have them reconsider the software point.
The BakaBT site really is excellent, and don't believe (staffers included!) that there are suitable alternatives for finding 8-bit content or what have you. That's part of what makes this site great, the site itself is set up and managed extremely well. I have found myself looking at other sites, and find it quite difficult to even know what you're getting half the time, until you have the content and can look directly. Please don't blindly link proving points in response to this, of course anyone can find what they're looking for if they really try, I'm simply pointing out that it can be a pain in the ass.
For the people I'm chewing out, of course I'm upset about this too -- but I have no delusions about who owns, operates, and maintains this place, and it's definitely not me.
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I wish people wouldn't say stuff like this. Nobody is forcing anything down anyone's throat. The people that run this site have every right to do whatever they want with this site, end of story.
Yes they do - and you'll notice (or will you?) that I said NOTHING AT ALL about the people who run this site. My post had NOTHING TO DO with BakaBT.
The BakaBT site really is excellent, and don't believe (staffers included!)
Why, yes it is! And if you actually read my post, you'll see that NOWHERE IN IT did I say ANYTHING about BakaBT or the people who run it, or are members of it.
That's part of what makes this site great, the site itself is set up and managed extremely well.
Just what post did you (think you) read?!? Not mine, as written, certainly...
For the people I'm chewing out, of course I'm upset about this too -- but I have no delusions about who owns, operates, and maintains this place, and it's definitely not me.
I don't know you; have no idea who you are; and I certainly didn't post anything about you - or about BakaBT or its staff.
YOU appear to be drawing conclusions and making inferences which were never made, or implied.
Paranoia will destroya.
Incidentally, @RedSuisei: your logic is comparing Apples and Kumquats. Over 95% of the anime which BakaBT HAS is 8-bit. So by your "logic," it should all be deleted, forthwith. Furthermore, MY TV has one - exactly one - coaxial input and one composite input: did you wanna come over and hook up my PC to it? Also,
will you be there to change the anime or pause it to read long/swift subs or when the phone rings? (My PC is ten feet away from my TV, will you be there to do the legwork?) This is EXACTLY what I meant about certain people thinking that everyone else on the planet lives as they do. Thank you for helping to prove my point. :)
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@bobthedog: ...If your post had nothing to do about BakaBT, then don't post here. This thread is only about how BakaBT handles 10-bit and 8-bit anime from now on. You sir, who posts stuff in such an obviously emotional manner, and whose post apparently doesn't even have anything to do about BakaBT, should kindly step out of this thread before you embarass yourself further. If you want to complain about the people who "forces down the throats" (I'm assuming you're talking about the releasers, since you're not talking about BakaBT, and the releasers are the one who actually made the files), then feel free to complain to their site, not here. It's not as if all releasers check this thread and see your complaints anyway (though I doubt that even if they do, they'd just follow what you want like that). If you're only using this thread as a means for venting anger, then again, do so elsewhere.
Oh and, as I've said repeatedly, BakaBT never considered removing all 8-bit releases. They are thinking about treating 10-bit and 8-bit equally, as in, whichever one is better will be taken. In the end, it's still about quality first, no matter whether it's 10-bit or 8-bit, large or small, Xvid or H.264. Please make sure you thoroughly understand this before you post again and embarass yourself further. Also, you can use a PC remote, they're cheap nowadays.
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:) Oh, I'm not embarrassed: after all, I'm not the one acting like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have.
I'm adult enough to accept that others might have differing opinions and not try to control them or silence them. This is at the heart of my complaint, incidentally: people need the maturity to see that not everyone thinks as they do, or demand that it be so. Have a lovely day.
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:) Oh, I'm not embarrassed: after all, I'm not the one acting like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have.
I'm adult enough to accept that others might have differing opinions and not try to control them or silence them. This is at the heart of my complaint, incidentally: people need the maturity to see that not everyone thinks as they do, or demand that it be so. Have a lovely day.
Well, you don't act like a frustrated wee tinpot dictator who tells other people what opinions they should have. You act like a frustrated wee tinpot whiner who thinks they can tell people to cater to each and every one of their needs.
As I see it, you are the one who demand people to still stick to 8-bit to cater to your preference, and demand than everyone caters to your opinion, so yeah, you're not adult enough. Also, not adult enough to know better than to post unrelated things on a thread. Have a lovely, and hopefully not embarassing, day.
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Oh dear...
Fine: you can have the Last Word. ;)
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Oh and, as I've said repeatedly, BakaBT never considered removing all 8-bit releases. They are thinking about treating 10-bit and 8-bit equally, as in, whichever one is better will be taken.
Come on, if you put it like that, it looks like you are doing it intentionally to be demagogic or something.
It *does* mean removing 8bit. Calling it "equal treatment" is nice and fluffy, but it is about removing 8bit.
Of course, if there is no 10bit to replace it, teh particular 8bit will stay. However right now, for every 10-bit uploaded, under the current practice, there would be a place for an 8-bit fallback for the "unwashed masses".
If you implement your "equal treatment", there won't be no fallbacks. The only way for an 8bit release to be accepted if there already is a 10-bit offer would be for it to eliminate the 10-bit one in the evaluation. Similarly, any 8-bit release that will fail to over-merit a 10-bit one will get eliminated.
So yeah, 8-bit *does get removed*. Calling it equal treatment is hypocritical, because you/we (10-bit enabled dudes) won't lose anything, while the "equaly treated" non-10bit dudes will lose the ability to grab torrents that got their 8-bit versions nuked by 10bit ones.
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Come on, if you put it like that, it looks like you are doing it intentionally to be demagogic or something.
It *does* mean removing 8bit. Calling it "equal treatment" is nice and fluffy, but it is about removing 8bit.
Of course, if there is no 10bit to replace it, teh particular 8bit will stay. However right now, for every 10-bit uploaded, under the current practice, there would be a place for an 8-bit fallback for the "unwashed masses".
If you implement your "equal treatment", there won't be no fallbacks. The only way for an 8bit release to be accepted if there already is a 10-bit offer would be for it to eliminate the 10-bit one in the evaluation. Similarly, any 8-bit release that will fail to over-merit a 10-bit one will get eliminated.
So yeah, 8-bit *does get removed*. Calling it equal treatment is hypocritical, because you/we (10-bit enabled dudes) won't lose anything, while the "equaly treated" non-10bit dudes will lose the ability to grab torrents which got 8-bit versions nuked by 10bit ones.
I thought I say "whichever one is better would be taken" there? As I see it, that's the point of equally treating 10-bit and 8-bit releases. Equal treatment, means whichever one is better, will be taken. You definitely can't say the current one is "equal treatment," seeing that if the best 10-bit is of lower quality than the best 8-bit, the 10-bit won't be accepted, but if the best 8-bit is of lower quality than the best 10-bit, then the 8-bit will still be accepted. Equal? Not in my book. What about this: If the best 10-bit is better than the best 8-bit, then the 10-bit will be accepted. Conversely, if the best 8-bit is better than the best 10-bit, then the 8-bit will be accepted. Equal, no? At least it is in my book.
Of course, I also never said anything about equally treating 10-bit enabled dudes and non-10bit enabled dudes, I was talking about treating the releases themselves. If BakaBT is supposed to treat all of their users equally, then as I said, they should also accept ultra LQ releases since some people prefer those, or can only get those (I know a lot of my friends who are stuck with 512kbps internet). And I thought I also say "never considered removing all 8-bit releases", which implies that BakaBT won't remove them all, but some would be removed if it does warrant removal, which, as you said, some of the 8-bit *does get removed*.
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@bobthedog I apologize, I won't make any further assumptions that your posts to a thread are related to said thread. My bad.
@RedSuisei Yeah, that's related to what I was getting at about other sites usually sucking eggs. With my HTPC (a PC in a fancy box with a remote, but using software such as XBMC/Plex/Boxee or related), I find the 8-bit slot next to the 10-bit invaluable until 10-bit support is mature enough in such (popular!) software that it's no longer needed. At the moment such support does exist in either work-around or otherwise buggy manners, and can likely be expected to mature within 6 months to a year.
@OnDeed I would call that equal treatment (or in other words, fair treatment), honestly. If a better 8-bit encode exists then a 10-bit one, it'd win out. It's really not about if its fair to the users of the site.
It does make sense that people wouldn't want to split a seeding pool, or making staff do extra work accepting multiple versions of the same anime, so it's very understandable that they wouldn't want to allow this forever, at least if I understand the motivation for all of this correctly.
Still though, all I'm really asking for is extending the temporary concession due to lack of software support, since software support isn't there yet in my (and seemingly others in this thread) personal opinion.
I can see where people are coming from in regards to hardware support, but honestly, quality has never really meshed with legacy hardware (such as old laptops). On the other side of the same coin, I do agree that supporting a currently CPU-dependent format is a little harsh, as hardware acceleration does exist for high quality current formats, that's totally lost with 10-bit -- effectively excluding devices and laptops that are low-power and built with vdpau or similar to compensate. Honestly though, that's probably asking too much for a site about quality.
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Well I'm sorry, but there are those of us who want to watch OUR anime differently; we want to watch it on our TVs, through our Divx DVD-players or our Modded Xboxes or our WDTVs or our Popcorn Hours or WHATEVER it is we, in our misguided nonconformity, prefer to watch it on. Excuse us for living.
(I'm just a wee bit worked up about this.) ;D
But nobody is saying you shouldn't watch anime like that. This isn't even the topic here. You can watch anime any way you want, but on BakaBT, it's expected to keep only the best quality. If that best quality is 10bit, then it should be kept.
Also, why don't you just connect your PC to your TV?
madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.
Well, my MPC-HC uses more CPU with madVR then with anything else, so that's what I meant. Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.
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Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.
They do, otherwise you won't be able to watch anything without a video card that supports 10-bit output and a 10-bit display. madVR dithers the video to the display's bit-depth after alll of it's processing is done. Unless, of course, you're talking about madVR being capable of accepting 10-bit input without having to be dithered by the video decoder, in which case though, madVR will still dither at the end.
@garretn: I can agree with your problem there. IMO it's always possible to use other solutions, especially since XBMC has been known to be quite behind compared to the typical playback software. IIRC Daiz linked about DSPlayer which should play 10-bit, but I don't know how well it works. IIRC Mediaportal can also use MPC-HC as an external player.
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I love all people in the world (even the bad ones) and especially all the truly wonderful people here at BakaBT!
:angel:
@garretn: No problemo, mi amigo.
@RedSuisei: Yes, you are Wonderful too, in your way...
@OnDeed: 10/10. Exactement. Spot on.
I am just following the principle so beautifully stated by doll_licca: if the purpose of subbing anime is for the maximum number of people to be able to SEE it, then anything which EXCLUDES people defeats that purpose. Furthermore (she pointed out), trying to ensure maximum compatibility across the widest spectrum provides the largest viewing base. Ipso facto.
To quote my good friend Vash: Love and Peace, people. `Tis the season. Love and Peace!
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I am just following the principle so beautifully stated by doll_licca: if the purpose of subbing anime is for the maximum number of people to be able to SEE it, then anything which EXCLUDES people defeats that purpose. Furthermore (she pointed out), trying to ensure maximum compatibility across the widest spectrum provides the largest viewing base. Ipso facto.
While I agree about doll_licca's idealism, it should be noted that people release stuff with differing ideals. Some people like doll_licca wants their release to be enjoyed by as many people as possible. Some, instead, wants their release to be the best release ever made, which most of time means it inevitably can only be played by people with proper hardware support and enough bandwidth. Of course, it's also possible to make multiple releases, but for people (like me), even working on one episode is already time-consuming (considering I mostly work on stuff which requires complete timing overhaul, compelete typesetting from scratch, editing and TLC, and uses old DVDs which are filled with problems requiring proper fix, and all of that by myself), and uploading them on such a limited bandwidth also requires a lot of patience. As you said, you should've been adult enough to accept the differences in people's opinion and not demand others to do as you want.
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madVR renderer (not the decoder) doesn't use CPU, it uses GPU. The decoder doesn't use much more CPU than ffdshow/LAVFilters (Of course there may be some slight difference in CPU usage between using madVR or not). And it does dither the video down to 8bit.
@Aerah: If your rig can't use madVR renderer for 10-bit then it also can't use madVR renderer for 8-bit. Since madVR itself does the processing in 16-bit (IIRC), 10-bit and 8-bit will give roughly the same load to the GPU (I say roughly because there are some stuff that does slightly make the two differ, but not by much I believe). And really, an old nvidia 9400MG with a measly 256MB of onboard video memory can use madVR on 10-bit, why can't you?
madvr does use more cpu
MadVR simply uses a lot more CPU (even with all the 'fancy' settings turned off or to minimal) compared to EVR (Vista and up) and VMR (XP/2003).
10-bit is CPU only so CPU hogging renderer will not help 10-bit performance - using EVR/VMR CP is a much better choice.
Thats all - people should avoid MadVR if they have performance problems as it only makes performance WORSE.
:)
IMO MadVR does ride the 'I-can-totally-see-it' quality difference train.
Might as well start comparing EVR:CP vs. EVR:CP HalfFP vs. EVR:CP FullFP.
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IMO, compare them as equals for now, but in the future look into it again. I am running an old PCI GeForce FX5500 video card and I can play 10-bit on my system that is running: Win. 7 Pro, 1.5GB ram, and a 2.0GHZ AMD 64x2 3000+. It's an older computer, but don't let people say that older systems can not play them.
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I have not taken to time to read each and every post, so my bad if it has already been said. I was under the impression the point and reason why BakaBt was made was to keep it as original as possible. This falls under the line of image being sharpen, blurred, upscale, and yes changing the original bit depth of the image.
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As you said, you should've been adult enough to accept the differences in people's opinion and not demand others to do as you want.
Nahhh. That's not what I said...
Are you, perchance, seeking the American Republican Presidential Nomination?
You are certainly well qualified...
::)
(And afterwards, you would make a perfect Fox News commentator.)
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Also, madVR is the only one that DOESN'T dither to 8bit for me.
They do, otherwise you won't be able to watch anything without a video card that supports 10-bit output and a 10-bit display. madVR dithers the video to the display's bit-depth after alll of it's processing is done. Unless, of course, you're talking about madVR being capable of accepting 10-bit input without having to be dithered by the video decoder, in which case though, madVR will still dither at the end.
10-bit vidcard and a 10-bit display? This switch in terminology recently is hella confusing: does a Geforce 330M outputting 1080p @ 32-bit colour via HDMI to a Samsung LCD FullHD TV meet these criteria?
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I strongly oppose removing 8-bit releases.
My current system (Core2 Quad 2.5GHz) is just capable of playing 1080p 8-bit releases, and I'm not planning to buy a new system for at least another 12 months. In fact, I even found one 8-bit release that I can't even play properly: Roberta's Blood Trail, at the flashback scenes where they add a lot of animated noise.
It would help if codecs would utilize more cores, but currently they don't. (using CCCP)
I'm already disappointed that there's no 8-bit release anymore for Puella Magi Madoka Magica (http://bakabt.me/163444-mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-puella-magi-madoka-magica-1080p-10-bit-coalgirls.html).
Well then you're out of luck ZomBie, encoders only give a shit about their convenience not yours.
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Chill guys. This is not 10-bit vs 8-bit wars like we usually seen.
This is just about the transition for the sake of the community. It will be for sure, just about in how long, 6 months? 3? or zero? and how? That's all.
10-bit supporters, we surely got what we want as the 10-bit is fully support already. No worries here. 8)
And personally I'm waiting for more 10-bit stuffs to be here on bakabt, there aren't that many for now (Still kinda new?).
It's just about the fellow dudes anime watcher who are trying to follow you guys. :)
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I'm already disappointed that there's no 8-bit release anymore for Puella Magi Madoka Magica (http://bakabt.me/163444-mahou-shoujo-madoka-magica-puella-magi-madoka-magica-1080p-10-bit-coalgirls.html).
Because nobody offers it. Same case as for OreImo: go ahead and do it yourself.
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Ah E99, i cant believe CCCP was an inside joke. :P
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I've got an Atom/ION2 board that can play 8-bit 1080p flawlessly, but dies on 10-bit (artefacts) and even with CPU decoding playing 720p is so-so. Subjectively I am *not* getting better perceived quality from 10-bit releases. I also don't believe that the few percent difference in encode sizes justifies this step, since I've got 100/10 line.
But the community decided to do this and I can't say a thing. That's why I am working on my re-encoding procedure and download 10-bit releases when there's no 8-bit one. So... keep 8-bit releases for a while and give them a special slot, it's way better then home-made transcode. Hopefully, support will come with time.
As a side note, 10-bit SD is just silly.
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10-bit vidcard and a 10-bit display? This switch in terminology recently is hella confusing: does a Geforce 330M outputting 1080p @ 32-bit colour via HDMI to a Samsung LCD FullHD TV meet these criteria?
[/quote]
No they do not, you need a professional graphics card and high quality monitor/TV.
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I say we create more slots or at lease reserve one slot for 8-bit.
Here is my opinion on 10-bit vs 8-bit. 10-bit IS better than 8-bit. But is it worth it?
WARNING: the following content can be a little bit technical.
Here is some theoretical advantages of 10-bit (precisely speaking it is H.264/MPEG4-AVC Hi10P):
1.1. 30 bit per pixel (bpp). (This is the only advantage of 10-bit. The rest are H.264/MPEG4-AVC's)
1.2. Compression is 10bit by 10bit. Saves bandwidth.
1.3. Motion compensation can be performed on 4x4 blocks. whereas mpeg-2 16x16.(which means even if your monitor do not support 30bpp, you will still get a little better quality )
1.4. Support chroma sub-sampling 4:4:4 (with further extension to MPEG4-AVC) ,whereas MPEG-2 4:2:0
The disadvantages :
2.1. High CPU consumption
2.2. Most LCD support only 8bit per channel
A viable solution is to choose a 8-bit codec which support 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 (for example H.264/MPEG4-AVC HiP).
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We are not able to overcome the physical realities of the AIOS' 1185 COU/SoC. This means that 10-bit video playback is not in the cards for the Aios. In fact, there is NO hardware acceleration of 10bit video on any product on the market for consumers today.
Well I suppose the party is over for this easy solution to watch high definition files from your computer wirelessly on your big screen. I think the argument is pretty much over about the decoders. I've prolonged moving my PC into the living room for too long and apparently spent a hundred dollars too much for the convenience of wanting to keep my office and living room separate. Buy another computer for living room? Not exactly in everyone's budget, but Pivos and other companies are working on creating new products that will play 10-bit encodes. How long until they hit the market? No idea but moving the computer to the living room and hooking it up directly to the big screen seems like one of the only options left for the high end convenience. If I have to I will, perhaps the ps3 or xbox360 route might also work. I voted to keep 8-bit around in the (A slot) but admit it is completely in my own self interest and not in the best interest of the bakabt staff or the direction of Bakabt in providing the highest quality video when possible. :o Do what you must, it might not be convenient for everyone, but sometimes the hard decisions have to be made. I do appreciate the open conversation on the issue though. Some very creative solutions to solving the problem have been mentioned in this forum. As for the argument over fansub groups not offering 8-bit encodes anymore this winter, I'm guessing people are still going to complain. But this fall I really didn't have any problems finding 8-bit encodes and was grateful. I suppose as long as there is still a demand, groups will continue to try to please until it truly becomes too much of a burden. Of course if were up to me, 8-bit and 10-bit high def encodes would become the new standard and 480p would be finally placed to rest accept for when it's the only known release available of course. ::)
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As a side note, 10-bit SD is just silly.
Elaborate.
What if I say H.264 SD is silly?
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As a side note, 10-bit SD is just silly.
Elaborate.
What if I say H.264 SD is silly?
Standard H.264 is different from H.264 with Hi10P extension.
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Actually there is no standard or nonstandard H264. H264 is a standard which includes a number of profiles (18), amongst which are HiP (High Profile) and Hi10P (High 10 Profile). Since both are part of the H264 spec, you can't say that one is more standard than the other.
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10-bit vidcard and a 10-bit display? This switch in terminology recently is hella confusing: does a Geforce 330M outputting 1080p @ 32-bit colour via HDMI to a Samsung LCD FullHD TV meet these criteria?
No they do not, you need a professional graphics card and high quality monitor/TV.
[/quote]
OK kids, will somebody tell me (and the rest of the world) what the fuck you lot mean by "a professional graphics card" and "a high quality monitor/TV"?!! I've seen this mentioned half a billion times in relation to Hi10P by people who obviously know-shit all, because none of them ever elaborate, but just keep on mumbling how bloody modern and wonderfully gorgeous this shit is. Or is this yet another dumb pitch by the Wintel alliance to get us to all to prepare our cash for the next wave of costly gear, nevermind the fact that they can't be bothered to write up software to work with more than one core, more than 4 gigs of RAM, etc. etc....?!
Cuz if this doesn't even freakin show up on modern FullHD screens and non-onboard NVIDIA or ATI cards, then wtf is the point????
Btw, how the hell does 32 bit colour not support 3*10 = 30 bit colour?! And I've had 32 bit colour displays since back in the freaking 1990s, so what's this strange bull about some "modern" tech that supposedly requires "modern" hardware to supply less bits?
PS ...I thought this 10bit technology promised to end the banding problem?? So far, the few 10bit series that I've watched have had BY FAR the worst banding issues I've ever seen in 720p or FullHD
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OK kids, will somebody tell me (and the rest of the world) what the fuck you lot mean by "a professional graphics card" and "a high quality monitor/TV"?!! I've seen this mentioned half a billion times in relation to Hi10P by people who obviously know-shit all, because none of them ever elaborate, but just keep on mumbling how bloody modern and wonderfully gorgeous this shit is. Or is this yet another dumb pitch by the Wintel alliance to get us to all to prepare our cash for the next wave of costly gear, nevermind the fact that they can't be bothered to write up software to work with more than one core, more than 4 gigs of RAM, etc. etc....?!
Cuz if this doesn't even freakin show up on modern FullHD screens and non-onboard NVIDIA or ATI cards, then wtf is the point????
Btw, how the hell does 32 bit colour not support 3*10 = 30 bit colour?! And I've had 32 bit colour displays since back in the freaking 1990s, so what's this strange bull about some "modern" tech that supposedly requires "modern" hardware to supply less bits?
PS ...I thought this 10bit technology promised to end the banding problem?? So far, the few 10bit series that I've watched have had BY FAR the worst banding issues I've ever seen in 720p or FullHD
It would have been better if you posted in a calm manner, that'd make people more likely to help you.
Anyway, these professional graphics card that supports 10-bit output and displays with 10-bit per color channel aren't meant for consumer usage. It's even rarely found in professional environment either. But on standard, FullHD display with standard consumer graphics card, 10-bit video will be dithered down to 8-bit (or whatever bit-depth the display is) video so it can be displayed properly. Before you went on and rage about what's the point of 10-bit if it's dithered down to 8-bit anyway, the dithering here is the advantage (google up about dithering).
Also, 32 bit-depth display actually consists of 4 channels: 3 color channels and 1 alpha channel (8-bit per channel * 4 = 32). Usually the alpha chanel is ignored though.
I'm also wondering since some people have mentioned this already, but can you please point out which 10-bit release has worse banding than the 8-bit one? I've never seen one myself, especially the ones uploaded at BakaBT.
In the end though, 10-bit itself doesn't remove banding, it prevents more banding to be introduced during the encoding process. If the source already had banding, then the encoder would need to deband the video first before encoding.
Next time, please ask in a more polite manner. I'm pretty sure many people here would be inclined to answer if you do.
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Actually there is no standard or nonstandard H264. H264 is a standard which includes a number of profiles (18), amongst which are HiP (High Profile) and Hi10P (High 10 Profile). Since both are part of the H264 spec, you can't say that one is more standard than the other.
Yeah. I should have used 'main profile' rather than 'standard'.
PS: Some profiles were added as the Fidelity Range Extensions. In this sense, the word 'standard' is OK here.
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A month ago I would have been against any change from 8-bit, but now I'm indifferent. I convert everything I download to an .MP4 to watch using my PS3 and 46" Sony LCD TV. Novembers update to CCCP made it so I can use XviD4PSP5 to re-encode even Hi10P to a .MP4 that plays well on the PS3, looks damn good, too!
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In the end though, 10-bit itself doesn't remove banding, it prevents more banding to be introduced during the encoding process. If the source already had banding, then the encoder would need to deband the video first before encoding.
Next time, please ask in a more polite manner. I'm pretty sure many people here would be inclined to answer if you do.
Ben-To [EveTaku][Hi10P][720P] takes the crown for banding. Very visible in many different ways immediately in the first few seconds. It's not a bad release or anything, other than the banding everywhere part, but the banding is extra-obvious, and just surprising considering 10-bits one and only tangible benefit (cause c'mon, dithering???)...
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In the end though, 10-bit itself doesn't remove banding, it prevents more banding to be introduced during the encoding process. If the source already had banding, then the encoder would need to deband the video first before encoding.
Next time, please ask in a more polite manner. I'm pretty sure many people here would be inclined to answer if you do.
Ben-To [EveTaku][Hi10P][720P] takes the crown for banding. Very visible in many different ways immediately in the first few seconds. It's not a bad release or anything, other than the banding everywhere part, but the banding is extra-obvious, and just surprising considering 10-bits one and only tangible benefit (cause c'mon, dithering???)...
Well 10-bit encoding is only the last part of the key combination here.
The factors at work:
1) your source is banded OR it gets easily banded once compressed (because the dither covering the gradients is faint and easily destroyed)
2) your filtering: using smoothers (especially the likes of dfttest and fft3dfilter) will create banding for you with pleasure. Likewise, you can do various antibanding filtering.
(The popular stupid way: create your own banding with the smoothers and then run gradfun to get rid of it, which usually takes away the compression benefits of the denoiser. Bonus points for sharpening afterwards because your source got smoothed...)
3) encoding. In this step, you finally try to achieve the banding-less result, but your success naturally depends on steps 1 and 2. If source had banding but you didn't do anything about it in step 2, you can't save it in step 3.
In this step, you can however screw up a good result from step 2 by using wrong options. Using good options here won't save you if you are inputting garbage, they will merely help you to not get garbage from your good input. Those good options are various: higher bitrate, higher aq and psyrdo, and encoding in 10-bit is another of them. Best is probably to combine all you got, because in 8-bit, it was often an uphill battle to get successful in this last step, x264 would often negate your efforts from step2... It's precisely this difficulty of getting a good result in this step in the past that encoders are so enthusiastic about 10-bit. Torturing yourself with gradfun only to find the banding back after encoding was a major pita.
TL;DR
10bit is a tool, it's not a silver bullet.
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I've plowed through this thread a few times now, and there doesn't appear much more to be said.
What I would suggest at this point is that bakaBT staff make a decision on when they want the changeover to occur, something convenient for your schedule and other duties, then announce it.
My input on that is to nominate 01 July 2012 as the changeover date for policies on torrent evaluation. It's semi-arbitrary, but six months seems a fairly reasonable timeframe, and it's not like all 8-bit will get deleted at midnight 30 June.
The idea here is that members have this time to download the hell out of the 8-bit torrents that are in danger of being deleted in favor of superior 10-bit encodes. This same time frame allows many comparison threads (http://forums.bakabt.me/index.php?board=54.0) to hash out which candidates get the axe first.
Possibly do it in stages: every Monday post a list of (10? or 15?) torrents that will get axed at midnight the following Sunday so that folks have a last opportunity to get a copy if they want it.
All new offers have to stand on their own merits for quality, with the 'normal' tradeoffs on video/audio/translations/ & filesizes & etc., and 8-bit or 10-bit is not a factor ... only superior quality and any archival value for rarities.
I made a few other suggestions in an earlier post (http://forums.bakabt.me/index.php?topic=33045.msg4719061#msg4719061) and stand by them as possibilities. In particular, the guidelines and requirements for making new offers and maintaining old ones might very well benefit from a bit of an overhaul to improve quality of offers and reduce the workload on staff for the approval/rejection process.
This is a proposed framework, all factors within it can be adjusted to fit other considerations (01 July sucks? Fine, maybe 01 September etc.).
For me, the big thing is just knowing when the effective date is, and having a substantial lead time to plan for it. In my world, six months is exceptionally generous.
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Been browsing a few pages and a lot of the same arguments over and over but i'm not really going to go into much of them (aside from the technical ones which I have no clue about)
As far as those saying to upgrade to those that have insufficient hardware, it's not always within ones budget to do so, be it have a job or not, because really computers/laptops are generally a luxury item, or at least as far as watching anime and such.
I'm just lucky I got a quad core laptop earlier this year, though I have a WD Live Hub hooked up to my TV as a means to serve my media easier, as my laptop doesn't really have a proper spot to sit, plus just the general hassle of having it hooked up and running, if it was a desktop then that would be something else, as I would more than likely have it permanently on the TV.
I'm not even sure where i'm going with this train of thought, anyway moving on.
As far as 8bit vs 10bit goes, I say have a slot for both, or at the very least a slot for 720p 8bit. I have friends that have a range of hardware, one doesn't watch HD because of the hardware he has but I doubt many, if any, SD releases would be in 10bit but i wonder how that would run on less powerful hardware.
Seeing as I tend to share my anime out (well fansubs anyway), I like to be able to cover most bases, so more often than not i'll get the one I want and if I know someone that wants to watch it, i'll get a lower quality version if they dont have the hardware.
I don't think there should be a time limit either on existing torrents but more of a general phase out, give it a couple years. Cull off the older ones first that have very little activity, especially if there are a few HQ releases of it but keep at least one of each as there's always going to be someone that may not be able to use 10bit properly.
Though if my WD Live Hub was compatible with 10bit or I had some kind of other compatible, convenient solution then I would worry about it even less personally but regardless keep 8bit and 10bit in tandem.
As far as HD releases go, even if 1080p is reserved for 10bit and 720p is for 8bit, I wouldn't really see an issue with that. Though honestly there isn't that great of a difference, sure I can tell at times whats 1080 and whats 720 but it depends on the source but in the end, as long as its a clean, crisp HD image then it's all good as far as i'm concerned.
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"My two cents"
I realize everyone is looking at what makes the best video output as far as codec + resolution, but are we talking about bumping off the old grading system we have now?
If so, I'm not at all okay with that! I almost exclusively download from the C group, yeah my PC is "ancient," but we're also talking about compatibility right? I mean, shouldn't we be just as concerned with using formats that have potential AND current usefulness?
Like, avi is a somewhat hated format because of its limitations, but it's soo freakin' compatible! Very few devices now (I can't think of any actually) can't play avi, and MP4 has some of the best compression (I realize I'm talking about the smallest scales here while everybody else talks about the high end) while maintaining excellent quality. Seriously. MP4. Not on here mind you, but I've DLed several series in that format with phenomenal compression and way better quality than the often bloated mkv.
But then again, it's just another torrent file, why not keep the groups as is, and add the high-end as an option 0, or something like that... A lot of anime on BakaBT don't even have more than one option, which can really suck if you have to choose your torrent based on whatever device you have to play it on... lets face it... money, and the technology you have available is a motivator here too.
(Please don't flame me if I said anything stupid, I'm tired, and I don't even use 720 and up slots. I wouldn't DL them even if I did have some high end device. Too much memory!)
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Seeing how are people eager to do this jump into the future (come on, I don't think 6 months is exactly a lot).
"Moving to the future" is fine in my book, but I don't think that a torrent tracker/release aggregation/archival place is a good place to drive that. I would leave that to the elitist-enough fansubbers an rippers.
Since I usually do releases of stuff where there is an alternative choice to download (even if it has worse video), I'm not too heartbroken with making a 10-bit rip (dvdrip, anyway...). However, there is a fansub project I'm part of, and the eventual releases will be 8bit, unless the other people I'm collaborating with strongly veto it. The reason is that if/when we finish it, it is going to be the first complete English release to date. I don't want to cut people away in such case.
TL;DR
I don't think bakabt really needs to take too active role in this transition. Not even leaving a single fallback slot (as many people in the comments seem to be perfectly fine with) is outright bad imho.
(Come on, xvid was put to "equal treatment" policy just recently... about 5 years after the introduction of h.264?)
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@0squid0
mkv and mp4 usually use the same compression algorithm for the video in them.
By the way... a lot of people who would be against transiting to equal treatment probably didn't even notice the poll, since they enter here only once per month or something like that, in order to download the next complete series to watch. The guys who are more active in the very site, at least in my opinion, are more likely to be more active in the fansub scene as a whole, thus more likely to prefer 10bit.
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By the way... a lot of people who would be against transiting to equal treatment probably didn't even notice the poll, since they enter here only once per month or something like that, in order to download the next complete series to watch. The guys who are more active in the very site, at least in my opinion, are more likely to be more active in the fansub scene as a whole, thus more likely to prefer 10bit.
Hmm, good point.
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Everyone keeps complaining about hardware this and hardware that. Just because you have an older computer does not mean you can not watch a 10-bit video. Like I said earlier, I have a PCI graphics card in my computer and I can watch 10-bit on a pentium 4 system. The main question that was asked was whether 10-bit should replace 8-bit, or be compared and treated the same.
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I guess I'll chime in.
Stand-alone media players cost less than $100, sit there on the network, have zero moving parts, and don't have a lot of power dissipation. Connect it to your HDTV (Or 1080p capable LCD monitor) and use it for what it does -- play media. A purpose-built Mini-ITX PC with an IR remote and enough processor and video to playback 1080p Hi10p media costs considerably more than $100, and then it becomes tempting to use it for other unrelated things. It's definitely going to use more power, which means more heat, which means ventilation, particularly if you want it quiet, which means LOTS of ventilation for passive cooling.
My main concern though is that Hi10p support doesn't even seem to be on the radar for the stand-alone media players. I see mention of it on things like the WDTV forums. People with the ASUS O!Play devices (like me) aren't even bothering to ask, because we know that it's just not going to happen. (Which is a shame, because I get really nice playback of other 1080p x264 media from the device.) Now that the Matroska header compression thing is sorted out in the firmware, I quite like it.
Hi10p is definitely not automatically better, and makes certain watching choices impractical. In this case,
Another system I have just doesn't have the grunt on its own. With CoreAVC (v2.6) codec, it can handle 1080p x264 reasonably well, with it only glitching on really high compressed areas. As such, I was happy with it. I am NOT going to spend money on upgrading the video card, or in fact anything on that machine. When its time comes, I'm going to hit the HDD with a hammer and junk it. (Probably save the BD-ROM drive and HD tuner that's in it for the next one.) It's the main media player for the living room. It can muddle through MOST Hi10p x264 720p media with minimal lag, but 1080p... Nope. Maybe if I didn't have to deal with Windows overhead (Since a Linux BD player is still vapourware) but as is, it's not going to work. For now, this means that I can't watch this stuff from the couch. This is also where the best sound system is at the moment, at least until I get the rest of the projector system finished.
The machine connected to my projector works just fine. No problems there. Similarly my main machine is also good.
The one is only a matter of time until I have to upgrade the machine for one reason or another, dead processor, mobo, RAM, whatever. At that time, I'll probably shuffle one of my current higher end systems into that duty, and then replace that with something hotter, which is what I usually do. This still leaves me out of watching Hi10p releases in the most comfortable watching environments in the house.
My current solution? Re-encode the video in 8-bit. It's time consuming, but since I get the re-encode started as soon as I finish downloading, doesn't tend to hold me back long, but it's a pain, and then I can't seed the downloads later unless I keep both versions.
Oh, and I've yet to find encoding problems with my re-encodes, like macro blocking, dot crawl or banding -- that wasn't there in the original -- and most of my filesizes are similar, if not smaller. Only a few are a couple of percentage points bigger.
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Oh, and I've yet to find encoding problems with my re-encodes, like macro blocking, dot crawl or banding -- that wasn't there in the original -- and most of my filesizes are similar, if not smaller. Only a few are a couple of percentage points bigger.
That's BS. There is no way that a reencode, especially from 10bit to 8bit, is going to be smaller AND have the same quality as the original. Just because YOU can't see the problems does not mean they are not there.
And for the last time: BakaBT has NEVER pandered to the hardware demographic.
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Oh, and I've yet to find encoding problems with my re-encodes, like macro blocking, dot crawl or banding -- that wasn't there in the original -- and most of my filesizes are similar, if not smaller. Only a few are a couple of percentage points bigger.
That's BS. There is no way that a reencode, especially from 10bit to 8bit, is going to be smaller AND have the same quality as the original. Just because YOU can't see the problems does not mean they are not there.
Why are you stopping there, ask him to show some proof.May be he will introduce us to a new generation of video encoding.
By the way... a lot of people who would be against transiting to equal treatment probably didn't even notice the poll, since they enter here only once per month or something like that, in order to download the next complete series to watch. The guys who are more active in the very site, at least in my opinion, are more likely to be more active in the fansub scene as a whole, thus more likely to prefer 10bit.
Very true+ those guys will come after another month and say "The one I downloaded(8-bit) wasn't the best version? So much about BakaBT storing the best quality!"
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Stand-alone media players cost less than $100
Yet even before 10-bit they still couldn't render ASS subtitles properly, nor could they probably play anything above Level 4.1 High Profile H.264, and beyond that good luck trying to get ordered chapters to work on them. There has already been lots and lots of 8-bit fansub releases that would be incompatible with your plastic toy.
Fansubbers do not cater to hardware players. You should have known this when you bought a plastic toy with limited capabilities to play fansubs.
Also, if you want the most performance out of your PC for 10-bit playback, use LAV H.264 decoder with xy-vsfilter or alternatively mplayer2 (the faster subtitle rendering with libass might help you quite a bit).
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Nearly all fansubs and BD releases (Coalgirls, THORA etc) are released for PC, and for playback on PC...peoples opinions on holding the push back just because some overpriced shit or console can't play 10-bit should be completely ignored
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I really can't understand why people want to play 1080p on screens that aren't 1080p. i don't expect to play 1080p on my 2007 laptop and i don't even want to.
Now back on topic:
I noticed when i switched to 10bit fansubs that there was much less banding and some even had better contrast/colors, but i'm not sure if 10bit is the cause - maybe the size has something to do with that, also most releases are the same size or smaller than 8bit ones.
I'm using potplayer beta (the new and much improved kmplayer) with LAV and MadVR. 720p works just fine.
It is time to switch to something new. BakaBT is about having the best! This is the only reason i come here.
PS: complaining that your netbook won't be able to play 1080p? pretty lame.
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Talk about being elitist.. lmao.
I'm not really complaining about 10-bit, it's just that the sudden hatred for 8-bit is laughable considering that's what everyone was watching with no problem earlier this year.
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Ever since somebody on here explained how there is no actual non-proartist equipment out there to actually DISPLAY 10bit colour, and considering how the "less banding" thing seems to not show up in practice*, I fail to see the point of 10bit today at all.
*: maybe groups don't know how to ENcode 10bit properly, maybe existing DEcoders today are screwing it up, or maybe the banding thing is a myth - in any case, has anyone actually SEEN a quality gain? do post comparisons (of *similarly sized* files, from the same source!)
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Ever since somebody on here explained how there is no actual non-proartist equipment out there to actually DISPLAY 10bit colour, and considering how the "less banding" thing seems to not show up in practice*, I fail to see the point of 10bit today at all.
Well, congratulations on being an idiot, then. Let me quote my own post from page 3 of this thread:
The bit depth of your monitor is irrelevant - the main benefit of 10-bit is the increased compression due to the higher precision, and that is something that takes effect on the encoding side and isn't in any way affected by the bit depth of the display you are viewing it with.
To add to that, the compression benefit applies no matter what the source bit depth is.
do post comparisons (of *similarly sized* files, from the same source!)
Here's two:
http://blisswater.info/comparison/elephantsdream/ (a comparison at exactly the same bitrate from a lossless source)
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/66418 (Exactly the same source and encoding settings with the only difference being the bit depth - the 10-bit video turned out 15% smaller, too)
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I believe we only need an extra slot in the C part.
The reason? 10-bit releases uses more CPU than 8-bit releases so we will offer, at least, 1 8-bit release in the weakest "department". This can be used, as an example, in situations where the viewer uses a computer which is also occupied doing other things and the member wants to view the video while the computer is working on other stuff (as an example).
The perfect for me would be to make available the best 8-bit release in slot C and, if there's no 8-bit for slot C use the best 8-Bit for slot B. This way we can somewhat please the ones that what to watch the videos in their PDA, tablet, etc... , for example (have a 8-bit release, when possible), and we won't have too many torrents for each show.
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There are some wierd differences in the Moe Onna comparison... was that with equal filtering? At least #5 seems to have some hue shift.
P.S. You meantioned the hardware players being "incompatible" with ass. They might not use fonts and ignore tags, but is that really critical? Usually it should be more than okay to watch&read subtitles without that - in some cases of lousy font choice it would be even beneficial. While it might hurt the TSer/styler's feelings, such stuff is not overly important.
@ Brunoais
There is a good reason for 8bit HD too - many people can play high bitrate 1080p via gpu/igp decoders, while they might not be able to play such 10bit (weak cpu) or even any 10bit at all (standalones).
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At least #5 seems to have some hue shift.
I used CCCP's ffdshow to decode the 10-bit video back when I did that comparison some 6 months ago, which had the minor color conversion swscale issue with 10-bit material. The filtering is otherwise identical, except 16-bit input was used for the 10-bit encode whereas dithered 8-bit input (from the same debanding filter) was used for the 8-bit one (feeding 16-bit input to 8-bit x264 gave worse results banding-wise).
Also, I would say that having typesetting fuck up could end up badly - depending on whether a player would simply not display multiple lines at the same time or show them unstyled onscreen all at the same time, you'd either get a screen full of text at times or alternatively miss out on important signs, or both.
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http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/66418 (Exactly the same source and encoding settings with the only difference being the bit depth - the 10-bit video turned out 15% smaller, too)
PHAIL. What a case of "OMFG ooh wow my banding used to be 67% dark bands 33% light bands.... and it's now 33% light bands and 67% dark bands, in the exact same places and amounts... fap fap fap 10bit ruels!"
Btw, what encoders/releases are being compared here? And 15% smaller - is that 15% smaller than Mazui-tight 240-270mb, or Bloatgirls sizes, where you can easily shave off 40-70% and still get the same quality?
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You respond with some stupid ass quote you made up, when all he did was answer the question you asked, and then you proceed to ask a question where the answer is blatantly in the quote your replying too...try reading it properly
i don't even....
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PHAIL. What a case of "OMFG ooh wow my banding used to be 67% dark bands 33% light bands.... and it's now 33% light bands and 67% dark bands, in the exact same places and amounts... fap fap fap 10bit ruels!"
Are you blind or have a shit display or something? There's a pretty notable difference in banding, especially in the first and fifth shots.
Btw, what encoders/releases are being compared here? And 15% smaller - is that 15% smaller than Mazui-tight 240-270mb, or Bloatgirls sizes, where you can easily shave off 40-70% and still get the same quality?
Both are my own encodes, with the 8-bit encode being ~153 MB in size and 10-bit encode being ~131 MB in size (both video only). For a somewhat less direct comparison, an 8-bit release encode (with different filtering) I did for the same episode was 265 MB (with audio).
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PHAIL. What a case of "OMFG ooh wow my banding used to be 67% dark bands 33% light bands.... and it's now 33% light bands and 67% dark bands, in the exact same places and amounts... fap fap fap 10bit ruels!"
Are you blind or have a shit display or something? There's a pretty notable difference in banding, especially in the first and fifth shots.
Btw, what encoders/releases are being compared here? And 15% smaller - is that 15% smaller than Mazui-tight 240-270mb, or Bloatgirls sizes, where you can easily shave off 40-70% and still get the same quality?
Both are my own encodes, with the 8-bit encode being ~153 MB in size and 10-bit encode being ~131 MB in size (both video only). For a somewhat less direct comparison, an 8-bit release encode (with different filtering) I did for the same episode was 265 MB (with audio).
Thanks.
Don't you think 131 vs. 153 MB video streams (btw, that for a full ep or ordered chapters) is rather bitrate-starved to be making comparisons? Though, admittedly, both look pretty crisp.
Already good vision raised to perfection via contacts, 46" FullHD display. Nope, I see the same amount of banding, in the same places. Different-looking banding, yeah, one has more prominent dark strips in the banding, while the other has more prominent light strips in the banding... but the same locations and quantity of banding nonetheless.
You respond with some stupid ass quote you made up, when all he did was answer the question you asked, and then you proceed to ask a question where the answer is blatantly in the quote your replying too...try reading it properly
i don't even....
Sarcasm... is the autism getting in the way of comprehension?
There is no answer there. Unless 8-bit and 10-bit are encoder groups, don't think so lol. Neither have I ever seen anything tagged [Daiz]. So, unless this person is affiliated with some major fansubbing or RAW group or is somehow else a well-known authority, what results *he* personally got from comparing his own 8-bit and 10-bit encodes - rather similar levels of quality, minute differences in banding type but not quantity, purported 15% size reduction but no info on filesizes [at the time the comment was first written] - don't say much of anything. Plus, it's screens that he himself selected to emphasize the difference, presumably best seen in these very scenes. And it's not really visible even then.
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...I think I don't have to say anything more to you Aadieu. There's already plenty of proof in Daiz' screenshots. If your eyes can't see the reduction in banding, then that's a problem with your eyes, seeing that the rest of us (including the ones who will eventually make decisions on which torrents get accepted) can see the reduction in banding. I'm starting to think that you just simply hate 10-bit and won't accept it no matter what, so I'll stop the argument here. Feel free to stick with your 8-bit version even if there's a superior 10-bit just because you think there's no quality gain.
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So much butthurt due to SupraGuy, prep-h is probably needed here. :laugh:
I laughed at that comparison, took me 10 seconds to notice that on-cursor image was different and not someone trolling me submitting the same image for A and B.
If you say that A has x bitrate and B has x+1% bitrate it would also be believable.
If you say that A is without client-side postprocessing and B is with client-side post processing it would also be believable.
If you say that A is Haali Render and B is MadVR / EVRCP (set to HQ) it would also be believable.
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Neither have I ever seen anything tagged [Daiz]. So, unless this person is affiliated with some major fansubbing or RAW group or is somehow else a well-known authority, ...
I don't think group affiliation and similar has any relevance to what is good encoding or not, nor do I have any strong opinion on 10/8 (although I notice that 10bit plays effortlessly on my old PC with little RAM), but as far as I know Daiz works for example for Underwater and UTW.
Otherwise I think this thread shows (an unusal amount?) of needless heat. Why not cool down and try to reason with rational arguments :)
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Seeing how are people eager to do this jump into the future (come on, I don't think 6 months is exactly a lot).
"Moving to the future" is fine in my book, but I don't think that a torrent tracker/release aggregation/archival place is a good place to drive that. I would leave that to the elitist-enough fansubbers an rippers.
...
I don't think bakabt really needs to take too active role in this transition. Not even leaving a single fallback slot (as many people in the comments seem to be perfectly fine with) is outright bad imho.
(Come on, xvid was put to "equal treatment" policy just recently... about 5 years after the introduction of h.264?)
And again with the excellent points, OnDeed!
Talk about being elitist.. lmao.
I'm not really complaining about 10-bit, it's just that the sudden hatred for 8-bit is laughable considering that's what everyone was watching with no problem earlier this year.
Yup. That's exactly the attitude I was pointing out in earlier posts:
"I got mine, Jack - and you can all kiss my arse if it's a problem for you. If you don't watch anime the way I choose to watch it
then you aren't good enough to be watching it."
It's a selfish, snotty, elitist viewpoint which places the preferences of some people above widespread compatibility.
And they don't even see it, because of course their own egos are in the way... :(
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@Aadieu/Aerah: I can see the differences between 10-bit and 8-bit in that comparison very clearly as well; it's very obvious, especially the TV in #1, the table in #5, and the night sky in #3. And Daiz is a pretty experienced encoder, he can be trusted to do the comparison properly.
@bobthedog: While I don't entirely disagree with you, remember that 8-bit releases will only be replaced with 10-bit versions when there is actually a benefit in doing so; it will not just be due to personal preference (regardless of the situation in the wider fansubbing community). So, while I do agree that many people are a bit overenthusiastic about the wonders of 10-bit, this discussion is about BakaBT; and in practice if staff did start treating 10-bit and 8-bit equally, as proposed, 10-bit will only actually be used where it does genuinely offer a benefit over any 8-bit releases.
Personally, I still don't believe 10-bit is mature enough to be an acceptable replacement for 8-bit, even where it does offer an improvement. As a few people have pointed out, it took 5 years before the dedicated Xvid slot was removed; and while I'm not saying we should wait that long for 10-bit too, 6-7 months is a bit too soon to be relying on it completely.
I think (and the majority of voters agree with me) that it is essential we make sure there is an 8-bit alternative available. Not necessarily for all categories, but there should be at least one 8-bit version of every anime on the site. It won't create any extra work for staff, since all releases need to be compared anyway, and I don't think BakaBT needs to worry too much about the seeding pool being split - the site has a clear surplus of seeders, and the systems already in place will ensure that no torrent will be unseeded.
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I agree with everything you say, Bob2004. (Must be something wise about us Bobs, eh? ;D )
And if you look at the Poll carefully, it's easy to see that the lower three choices all have in common the strong desire of the majority (as it stands
at this moment, and has been throughout the duration of the poll) to maintain 8-bit encodes for the foreseeable future so that the huge installed base
of people with either less-than-cutting-edge hardware or a desire to watch their anime on televisions won't find themselves left out in the cold.
Thank you for your maturity, and have a happy New Year!
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@Aadieu/Aerah: I can see the differences between 10-bit and 8-bit in that comparison very clearly as well; it's very obvious, especially the TV in #1, the table in #5, and the night sky in #3. And Daiz is a pretty experienced encoder, he can be trusted to do the comparison properly.
Difference? YES. Better? Not so sure - banding on the TV in #1 is major in both cases, just looks sorta different - 8-bit has this sorta hybrid banding/blocking, while 10-bit has more banding and zero blocking (just looking at the corner of the television in the pic). Btw, both are only really that noticeable because it's what changes on mouseover, thereby drawing attention. And in part, the TV banding might actually be intentional, since it depicts rays of sunshine falling on a surface.
Somebody else mentioned Daiz's participation in prominent groups, OK then... but still, comparisons made by the encoder himself to prove his own point are to be taken with a grain of salt, no? And his filesizes were pretty bitrate-starved, creating those very differences that he then found the most major of. Which still weren't that extreme.
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I voted for the second option even though my system can play multiple Hi10P encoded videos concurrently without a hicup even at 1080p. I remember when there was the switch from XviD to H.264 and how my computer, although decent and relatively new, couldn't play those encodes that were at the very top. Until there is decent GPU decoding I vote that we keep slot A 8b encodes.
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Difference? YES. Better? Not so sure - banding on the TV in #1 is major in both cases
Getting rid of the banding on the TV would require very heavy debanding that would end up killing details. In other words, banding on the TV is a source issue. That doesn't change the fact that the 10-bit encode preserves gradients much better all over the place. Also, while the bitrate might be starved for 8-bit (as evident by notable banding), it works quite fine for 10-bit. Denpa Onna is not a particularly hard source to compress. And being somewhat bitrate starved wouldn't even hurt the comparison, really - it would just makes the difference(s) easier to spot. Also, you've completely ignored the other comparison I posted. Compare this (http://blisswater.info/comparison/elephantsdream/ed-6999-10bit-3000kbps.png) to this (http://blisswater.info/comparison/elephantsdream/ed-6999-8bit-3000kbps.png) for example - the huge gradient is very obviously better preserved with 10-bit than with 8-bit. You really should stop trying to downplay the compressional benefits of 10-bit, it just makes you look like an ignorant luddite.
but still, comparisons made by the encoder himself to prove his own point are to be taken with a grain of salt, no?
You really think people would even be switching to 10-bit if it didn't offer compressional benefits? I've done these comparisons as much for myself as I've done them for the public, and for the sake of both I do the comparisons properly. If all these comparisons were just "cheated" in favor of 10-bit and it didn't actually offer any improvements I'd still be encoding everything in 8-bit. Stop being stupid.
Also, as other people mentioned already, I'm an encoder (among other things) in Underwater (http://underwater.nyaatorrents.org) and UTW (http://utw.me), the former which I also lead.
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@Aadieu/Aerah: I can see the differences between 10-bit and 8-bit in that comparison very clearly as well; it's very obvious, especially the TV in #1, the table in #5, and the night sky in #3. And Daiz is a pretty experienced encoder, he can be trusted to do the comparison properly.
The only thing I noticed is clear lack of bitrate in the 8-bit pic - there is some blocking present - 5th pic bottom right.
These compression artifacts is the most annoying things ever when seen in massive amounts.
Unless you tell me what to look for, I am not going to find it quickly.
And if I am not going to find it while I am watching it the encode is of good quality.
That is not really a good argument for 10bit if you have to point out what and where.
For example the ed-6999-10bit-3000kbps.png is simply ed-6999-8bit-3000kbps.png dithered more which can be easily done client side. Additionally, why would the sharpness of the 8-bit encode not decrease with added bitrate?
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@Aadieu/Aerah: I can see the differences between 10-bit and 8-bit in that comparison very clearly as well; it's very obvious, especially the TV in #1, the table in #5, and the night sky in #3. And Daiz is a pretty experienced encoder, he can be trusted to do the comparison properly.
The only thing I noticed is clear lack of bitrate in the 8-bit pic - there is some blocking present - 5th pic bottom right.
These compression artifacts is the most annoying things ever when seen in massive amounts.
Both the 8-bit and 10-bit are exactly the same bitrate. The reason the 8-bit looks more bitrate starved is because the better compression granted by 10-bit means it can make much more efficient use of that bitrate. In other words, 10-bit looks like it's higher bitrate (ie. better quality), even though it's actually not.
This means that when encoding in 10-bit, you can either encode it at a higher crf (and thus lower bitrate - and therefore lower filesize) and still get the same quality, or you can encode it at the same crf and get improved quality at a similar size.
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@Aadieu/Aerah: I can see the differences between 10-bit and 8-bit in that comparison very clearly as well; it's very obvious, especially the TV in #1, the table in #5, and the night sky in #3. And Daiz is a pretty experienced encoder, he can be trusted to do the comparison properly.
The only thing I noticed is clear lack of bitrate in the 8-bit pic - there is some blocking present - 5th pic bottom right.
These compression artifacts is the most annoying things ever when seen in massive amounts.
Both the 8-bit and 10-bit are exactly the same bitrate. The reason the 8-bit looks more bitrate starved is because the better compression granted by 10-bit means it can make much more efficient use of that bitrate. In other words, 10-bit looks like it's higher bitrate (ie. better quality), even though it's actually not.
This means that when encoding in 10-bit, you can either encode it at a lower crf (and thus lower bitrate - and therefore lower filesize) and still get the same quality, or you can encode it at the same crf and get improved quality at a similar size.
Well, yes. I know.
The issue is that there is nothing 10-bit exclusive about this - just up the bitrate on the 8-bit encode and what difference will remain then?
Show me the exclusive 10-bit quality.
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10-bit is good for those that do not use a 'stand-alone' media player that uses hardware decoding as most units like that are designed to only decode 8-bit. I have one of these devices connected connected to my TV and i plug an external HDD into that device to watch the anime that i get here. My device is a WD TV Live Plus HD with a WD 1TB portable HDD pluged into it. The settings for the HDMI output are LOCKED to 8-bit color with no way to change this setting. So for me at least i will be only getting the 8-bit releases due to hardware limitations.
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Neither have I ever seen anything tagged [Daiz]. So, unless this person is affiliated with some major fansubbing or RAW group or is somehow else a well-known authority, ...
I don't think group affiliation and similar has any relevance to what is good encoding or not, nor do I have any strong opinion on 10/8 (although I notice that 10bit plays effortlessly on my old PC with little RAM), but as far as I know Daiz works for example for Underwater and UTW.
Otherwise I think this thread shows (an unusal amount?) of needless heat. Why not cool down and try to reason with rational arguments :)
When my group started doing Hi10P encodes, it resulted in one of the very few times I've had to moderate comments on the blog (mostly to keep the blog reasonably family-friendly). People feel very passionate about this entire 8-bit vs. 10-bit debate to the point of written and verbal abuse.
This entire thread is merely a microcosm of that. It's like certain political hot-topics here in the United States; you support one side of an issue, you alienate the other side.
Although, it's very simple to placate both sides on the encoder's part; just do both 8-bit and 10-bit encodes. It's very minimal effort to do so, and I've probably encoded a lot more episodes of Hi10P than most encoders.
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To begin with,Daiz is entirely correct on nearly all points, but there is in fact a time where 10-bits is an improvement over 8-bits even when the source itself is only 8-bits.
To start, 8-bit means that for red(r), green(g), and blue(b), the values 0 to 255 can be represented. For 10-bit, the rgb values can be from 0 to 1023. This means that per component, 10-bit is 4 times as detailed as 8-bit. Therefore, if you had a raw image with 10-bit depth, it would have a color palette 64 times as large (4x4x4=64) to represent the image on your screen. In the case of high definition video, with the exception of footage from EXTREMELY high end cameras (starting with the RedOne cinema camera and upward), you will never come across media of this scale. The reason is, it would require a signal of 3.125 gigabits per second to properly transmit this signal. TV networks with half million dollar cameras broadcast sports from the arena to the network at less than 1/3rd this speed, with quality loss.
The piddly 50mbit/sec that you get from high definition formats would almost definitely not benefit from higher bit depths as it already is stretching itself quite far by employing 150:1 compression to begin with.
The case where 10-bits for a consumer screen makes a big difference is in upscaling video from a lower resolution. Each color channel (red, green, blue), before scaling is multiplied by 4 to make it a 10-bit value to begin with. Then the image is scaled up by finding values inbetween "neighboring" pixels to jam in-between each pixel.
If you work in 8-bit, and you have a pixel with the value 1 and the pixel next to it is the value 2, then if you were to double the size of the image, the pixel inserted inbetween is calculated by adding the two values together, then dividing them in half. So, 1+2 = 3 / 2 = 1.5.
1.5 is not a valid pixel value. So, it would become either 1 or 2 since scaling systems are generally smart enough to use a more complex calculation that takes other pixels into account as well.
Using the same values, in 10-bit, therefore multiplying the 1 and 2 each by 4, we get the values 4 and 8 to start with instead. So 4 + 8 = 12 / 2 = 6. 6 is obviously a valid value, so now instead of the 8-bit version which would be either 1.1.2 or 1.2.2, we have a higher quality scaling of 4.6.8 instead.
The result is that the "sub-pixel-sampling" or the pixels in-between the encoded pixels are of a higher precision. The visible result, in special circumstances (generally you saw it more during the earlier jumps from 5 to 6 pixels per channel) is that color banding in the picture is much less.
The quality is even further improved when linear and temporal color scaling is taken into consideration. This is when the previous pictures and pixels around each pixel are used to help scale the current picture. So the scaler has as much data as possible to help it guess the new value of each pixel when scaling.
To summarize, depending on the quality of the processor being used for scaling on the TV/PC, it is possible to greatly improve the quality of a SD, 720p, even a 1080i (during the deinterlacing phase) picture on a 1080p screen using 10-bit color channel resolution since detail is filled in by guessing numbers for pixels that were not represented on the source media.
That being said, going from 1080p to a 1080p screen, you will not see any quality change.
16.7 million colors per pixel to a little over 1 billion colors per pixel is not as earth-shaking as it may sound. Thanks to motion in pictures, it's not likely to make a big enough different to matter, especially in the case of back-lit screens, but that's an entirely separate discussion.
(Tip: For less file space stop encoding in flac) :D
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(Tip: For less file space stop encoding in flac) :D
That's until you run into someone who can tell when audio has been compressed.
(This would be mostly folks who probably deal with music for a living. Fortunately, the number of folks who are able to do this aren't that many.)
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Difference? YES. Better? Not so sure - banding on the TV in #1 is major in both cases
Getting rid of the banding on the TV would require very heavy debanding that would end up killing details. In other words, banding on the TV is a source issue. That doesn't change the fact that the 10-bit encode preserves gradients much better all over the place. Also, while the bitrate might be starved for 8-bit (as evident by notable banding), it works quite fine for 10-bit. Denpa Onna is not a particularly hard source to compress. And being somewhat bitrate starved wouldn't even hurt the comparison, really - it would just makes the difference(s) easier to spot. Also, you've completely ignored the other comparison I posted. Compare this (http://blisswater.info/comparison/elephantsdream/ed-6999-10bit-3000kbps.png) to this (http://blisswater.info/comparison/elephantsdream/ed-6999-8bit-3000kbps.png) for example - the huge gradient is very obviously better preserved with 10-bit than with 8-bit. You really should stop trying to downplay the compressional benefits of 10-bit, it just makes you look like an ignorant luddite.
The DenpaOnna ones had detectable differences, at least, though arguably beneficial ones.
These two? If you'd told me that they were subsequent frames from one encode, I'd be more likely to believe you. If someone else who wasn't me and actually knew how to do all this looked up the file info for colour bitrate/creation time/whatever and proved that you mistakenly uploaded two screenshots from the same source instead of a comparison, I'd be more likely to believe you. If you said these were excellent examples how 8-bit and 10-bit looked pretty much the same, I'd believe you :-)
...as it is though, you figure in the added ability to run hardware media players, old hardware, *or* utilize good old non-beta players with time-tested codecs with all the possibilities of modern hardware to filter and process the hell out of an 8-bit source, reliably, without an issue or a crash in months of daily use, vs. lots of betas, issues, glitches, incompatibilities, stability issues, and lack of choice in 10-bit decoders, and is it worth it? NOT WITH THESE PROOFPICS IT AINT.
Why? Simple answer: JUST SWITCHING DECODERS OFTEN PROVIDES A MUCH MORE VISIBLE QUALITY CHANGE. That's without even touching post-processing options and filters that appear to be somewhat scarce, 10-bit functionality wise, at the moment.
Complex answer: cause old upscaled bitrate-starved "720p" (from a blocky original with lots of straight lines and staircase edges all over the place, as well as the occasional artifact) properly processed in KMP provides better image quality than either your 8-bit or your 10-bit screens, regardless of bitrate version. And it's not yet worth the hassle of relearning to tweak the newer semi-beta Pot Player to hopefully, after a certain learning curve, *maybe* achieve that sort of quality on a hi-bitrate 10-bit video. Someday.
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Also, I've found that in my experience with Hi10P encoding versus the regular 8-bit High Profile, the source material strongly affects how much extra compression quality you'll get given the same bitrates. Hi10P doesn't work as well with really old material, but there are some benefits.
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Do em both as to please both crowd since you cant Please them all
anyway yea 10p has lower size but sometimes new stuff does not always means better
just a dime of thought
not back being a lurker
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anyway yea 10p has lower size but sometimes new stuff does not always means better
just a dime of thought
In this case, it does mean better....it's been proven already.
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So who wins the poll? The one with the most votes or only the one with >50% of the total votes?
Can't we just make a compromise? Some want 6 months and some want them now. How about we treat 10bit equally with 8bit releases starting this spring? Until then upload the FullHD 8bit ones too along side 10bit (that's if the 10bit ones are better of course).
The codecs and players are already good enough to play the files, but we can let them work a whole winter to sort out the remaining bugs, performance issues and also the fansubbing groups to become more proficient at using 10bit.
In my opinion, by then all new HD (720/1080p) releases will be in 10bit.
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Is Hi10P a better method of video encoding than "regular" 8-bit H.264? Yes.
What does it mean that a method of video encoding is "better" than another? It simply means that it can produce smaller files with the same quality.
In audio, there is the difference between lossy and lossless encodings, where MP3 is a popular lossy format and FLAC a popular lossless one. This is a common misconception. Both are lossy in compared to the ACTUAL source, the highly analogue audio produced by the artist(s), the lossy/lossless differentiation is only in regards to the (already lossily encoded) CD audio.
FLAC is, however, inarguably BETTER than MP3, since MP3 cannot produce the same quality, seeing as how it drops parts of the signal it encodes. Most of us can't hear which is better of a good quality rip of either, even if we CAN spot that there is a difference.
In video, on the other hand, there is no such thing as lossless encodings. Even the common sources (DVDs and Blu-ray discs) are encoded, the former in MPEG-2 and the latter in, generally, "mainstream" 8-bit H.264.
Wait, say what? The SOURCE is ALREADY encoded in 8-bit H.264? Yes, it is, even though there are of course exceptions. Blu-ray supports a variety of encodings, of which 8-bit H.264 is the most common. Hi10P is not one of them.
So, for the BEST quality, the pure disc rips should be used, which is generally 8-bit H.264. However, most people with higher IQ than they've got terabytes of storage prefer something...smaller . Hence, the re-encodes generally referred to by filesharers as "encodings" or "releases".
Back to Hi10P vs. 8-bit H.264. But I've already said Hi10P is better, why do I need to return to this? Simply to return to my main point - it is better because it can produce the SAME quality with SMALLER filesizes. As the source is (quite often) 8-bit H.264, a Hi10P encode can NOT magically make the video itself better.
TL; DR.
So the real question is, does the decrease in file sizes (25%, I believe I've read here?) warrant the decrease in portability of said files - which will not function in, for instance, common Blu-ray players, many of which CAN handle most 8-bit H.264 releases?
For the small percentage of us with SSDs (small but quick storage) and high-performance computers, I believe the answer is yes. For the rest of us, I'm not so sure. I, personally, would appreciate a (1080p OR 720p) 8-bit H.264 slot, at least for now.
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I voted for "No, I believe hardware support is not sufficient, please retain all releases for now", since my computer from 2002/2003 can not play 10-bit video, even with codec packs and/or media players that support 10-bit.
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Your hardware been almost a decade out of date isn't a valid argument for this...Group C is for people like you.
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Your hardware been almost a decade out of date isn't a valid argument for this...Group C is for people like you.
Oh, I see...not my fault I can't upgrade my computer or buy a new one though.
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Back to Hi10P vs. 8-bit H.264. But I've already said Hi10P is better, why do I need to return to this? Simply to return to my main point - it is better because it can produce the SAME quality with SMALLER filesizes. As the source is (quite often) 8-bit H.264, a Hi10P encode can NOT magically make the video itself better.
I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.
The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?
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I have lost track of how many times I've said this, but what the hell, one more for the road.
The real benefit from 10bit is NOT smaller file size. It's reducing banding. I don't get it, why is this such a hard concept to understand. It's fairly simple. When you encode something from a source (BD, DVD, whatever), there is a very high chance that banding may appear in the encode. 10bit reduces said amount of banding. 8bit: more banding. 10bit: less banding. How is that hard?
The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.
To people who still despise 10-bit (not that anything I say to you guys will ever change your mind anyway, but what the heck), while this may not seem much, it actually helps a lot. Example, you have a source with banding, and you used a debanding filter on it, load it up on AvsP/VDub/whatever and see that the banding's gone/reduced. When you pass it on to x264-8bit, the final video may have the banding appear again (sometimes maybe even worse). With 10-bit, you can keep the smooth gradients from the already filtered video much more easily and at a much lower bitrate. That's the actual benefit of 10-bit encoding in regards to banding prevention. Note that I said "prevention," not elimination.
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If you must, 480p should go 10-bit first. Last should be 1080p. Not the other way around.
Lets put a 2004 desktop, slow CPU and not much RAM, but a PCIe slot with a DXVA2 GPU.
This computer can play higher bitrate 1080p 8-bit h264 than I have ever seen in an anime rip/sub...
Assuming that the user is not a total idiot and did not install MadVR (which kills performance),
No doubt that such a CPU can play 480p 10-bit video without any need to turn off deblocking.
But 720p 10-bit? Such a user may need to turn off deblocking and use Haali Renderer instead of EVR.
So for such a user it may be an advantage to download 10-bit 480p DVD-only shows and 8-bit 1080p BD shows.
If there is no 8-bit 1080p release, then the user will either have to watch 480p 10-bit or 720p 10-bit (without deblocking).
1080p 8-bit >>>> 720p 10-bit w/o deblocking >>> 480p 10-bit
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The way you said isn't exactly correct though, what you said makes it sound as if 10-bit itself will reduce banding, while in fact, it doesn't. All it does is to help prevent more banding to appear because of the loss of dithering in the encoding process.
What I meant to say is that by encoding something from a source, you will probably create more banding, and that 10bit will help reduce how much banding is created. It cannot remove banding from the source. Only debanding filters can do that, and those have undesired side-effects.
Lets put a 2004 desktop
And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.
This debate is pretty much a dead end. People who hate 10bit will hate it regardless of how illogical that is. They will claim that it has nothing over 8bit, ignoring the blatantly obvious screenshots provided. As someone who has been on BakaBT for a long time, here is what I've learned:
1. BakaBT does NOT care about hardware support. Never has, never will. You not being able to play 10bit on WDLive or some other machine is not an argument that will be accepted.
2. BakaBT wants the best quality. If 10bit is the best quality (and it usually is), BakaBT will take it.
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.
Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.
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I did have problems playing Hi10P releases on my laptop circa mid-2006 w/ CCCP. There was some discoloration of pixels while playing, but it was "watchable." With my new laptop, over the past few months, there have been no problems. The problem for some people might occur with machines made in 2006 with weak sauce CPUs and/or video cards with less than 512MB on-board RAM.
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Group C is for people like you.
Now, where have I heard this sort of thing before?
Oh yeah...
"Links... Recht... Links... Links... Recht... Gruppe 'C'..."
Nice. ::)
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What I meant to say is that by encoding something from a source, you will probably create more banding, and that 10bit will help reduce how much banding is created. It cannot remove banding from the source. Only debanding filters can do that, and those have undesired side-effects.
That is correct. I agree with that.
And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.
(snip part not relevant to response)
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.
There are platforms that will not properly play 480p Hi10P encodes correctly (insufficient software support). I would not cut them off and tell them to get a new computer.
Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.
If it were me (note that I'm not a 10-bit hater myself), I would have just not downloaded the anime and wait for BDs or DVDs to come out, and import them.
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^ CoreAVC 2.5 and up dropped support for low-end CPUs AFAIK.
Lets put a 2004 desktop
And that's where I stopped reading (not really, I read the whole thing). So you're saying that people should hold back because some people still use 8 year old PCs? Fair enough... exactly how long should we wait? Until they upgrade? But why would they upgrade if they can play the files? Why would anyone upgrade if they can play the files.
This debate is pretty much a dead end. People who hate 10bit will hate it regardless of how illogical that is. They will claim that it has nothing over 8bit, ignoring the blatantly obvious screenshots provided. As someone who has been on BakaBT for a long time, here is what I've learned:
1. BakaBT does NOT care about hardware support. Never has, never will. You not being able to play 10bit on WDLive or some other machine is not an argument that will be accepted.
2. BakaBT wants the best quality. If 10bit is the best quality (and it usually is), BakaBT will take it.
3. For people with slow PCs, the 480p slot will ALWAYS be provided. It may be 10bit as well, but even that 8 year old pc will be able to play it back.
Also, understand this: 10bit is coming. It's pretty much already here, and sooner or later, all official releases will be 10bit. At that point, what will the 10bit-haters do? Either accepts 10bit, reencode it themselves, or wait for random guy 7628 to reencode it for them and post in on the internet.
You missed the point. First to go 10-bit should be SD THEN HD. SD 10-bit is accessible to a much broader range of hardware than HD 10-bit. SD 10-bit has less of a negative impact on the fan base. 1080p 10bit alienates a much broader range of hardware. Besides 10-bit SD need to prove itself - I just downloaded 480 10bit and each episode was NOT impressive size-wise - quite on the contrary.
The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore. Same goes for the popularity of the iPad, and for Windows users Windows 8 is designed to run on touchpad hardware (probably will also be equivalent of 2004/5 PC with DXVA2 GPU).
It is very anti-innovative to push bulky high performing heat-makers these days. There is no point - most users need a piss-poor CPU and a good GPU, a browser, and a media player. Hell my next 'upgrade' might as well be a W8 touchpad - way more convenient never technology.
BTW, I my example - the users ALREADY upgraded their GPU to play 1080p video.
I already commented on the screenshots.
I don't think BakaBT has a blacklist (*booru style)... does it? It would solve problems - just not showing the "hi10p" troll codes.
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I am un-phased by the switch so I say go ahead and start doing it now... I'd still say keep 8bit there is no 10bit for, I doubt groups want to re-encode thousands of shows and movies just as they come along, replace them if they are better. So I guess I am voting for option 1? If the 10bit is a higher quality, nix the 8bit from the tracker, no need for it. I figured out how to watch 1080p 10bit. Most off the shelf computers are capable out of the box playing anything 10bit, even in 1080p.
I agree with one of the first few posts though, I think IX posted it, choose which tag you're going to call it hi10p, 10-bit, hi10 ect.
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The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.
Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.
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The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.
Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.
Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.
Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.
Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.
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Group C is for people like you.
Now, where have I heard this sort of thing before?
Oh yeah...
"Links... Recht... Links... Links... Recht... Gruppe 'C'..."
Nice. ::)
lol, it's the truth though.
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The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.
Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.
Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.
Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.
Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.
So, we owe 1080p rips to PCs which in your opinion are dead? I guess most of us are necromancers then, bringing our PCs back from the grave in order to write posts and watch anime.
Unless you claim to be psychic and know the mods thoughts, what do you base your claim for reason of the support for the C slot, considering the fact that you weren't even registered at the time when the slots appeared(unless your account was pruned)? Find me one post from a mod where they say that C slot is for little plastic toys, if you can.
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The PC is dead. The popularity of netbooks (ehem, equivalent of 2004 PC) proven that a conventional PC is not needed anymore.
Lol, seriously? If you truly think that, there's no point in talking. Anime fansubers will ALWAYS work on the PC for the PC. If users don't want to use the PC anymore, that's their problem.
Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays). Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use, much less on on 13-17" laptop screens that can't even display all them pixels.
Check out tvrips of US dramas. Good luck finding even 480p widescreen rips with more than a handful of seeds there. Why? Cause THOSE people DO watch on their PCs and their hardware players.
Btw, the real reason we have such support for the C slot isn't old PC hardware, as the 1080p Hi10p crowd is saying - it's slow-to-catchup hardware players, tablets, pocket media players, upscale cellphones, etc.
So, we owe 1080p rips to PCs which in your opinion are dead? I guess most of us are necromancers then, bringing our PCs back from the grave in order to write posts and watch anime.
Unless you claim to be psychic and know the mods thoughts, what do you base your claim for reason of the support for the C slot, considering the fact that you weren't even registered at the time when the slots appeared(unless your account was pruned)? Find me one post from a mod where they say that C slot is for little plastic toys, if you can.
I'm saying 1080p is popular because people hook up their devices to big screens, not monitors. The monitor crowd likes 720p.
I never said anything about what mods think. I don't even see how that's relevant. Threads like this one seem to show that administrative decisions are made taking what the public wants into account.
I was talking about POPULAR support for Slot C. It's there because people want it to be there. And people want it to be there for compatibility reasons.
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Do you have any basis for your first claim regarding TVs/monitors or are you just projecting your personal situation?
In case you're not aware, this isn't a democracy, and the slots decision, as far as I remember wasn't taken after a public consultation. What the mods are doing now is just a favor to the community, and don't think that the poll results are going to compel them into doing something that they think is wrong. As the thread has shown, there are plenty of ignorant persons, and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense, that simply aren't up to date on the terminology and technical aspects of 10-bot/8-bit encoding, and so can't be relied upon to make an informed decision.
Again, unless you were present when the slots decision was made, you can assume all you want but you won't be right. "The people" that you refer to are the mods, so don't think that the popular decision will mean too much.
Edit: IMHO 1080p is popular because people have always had the irrational belief that the the bigger it is, the better it is. On BakaBT, an obvious additional reason for the popularity is the freeleech. Before freeleech for 1080p, there were relatively few people willing to sacrifice their ratio for it.
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I don't understand any of this, but I voted to keep both options. At least I think that is what this option meant. "Yes, we should treat both 10-bit and 8-bit releases equally." :-\. If that's not can I move my vote to the right choice I wanted. :-\
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Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use
Ever heard of something called "viewing distance"? People usually sit a lot closer to their monitors than their TVs, and at such distances difference between actual 720p and 1080p material is quite obvious even on smaller screens, like it is on my 24" 1920x1200 screen.
I suggest you stop posting instead of embarrassing yourself any further with mindless and ignorant statements like this.
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Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays).
Then why don't you just connect your goddamn PC to the HDTV in the first place?
Also, as Daiz said, the distance at which you watch the screen matters most. The bigger the distance from the screen, the larger the screen needs to be to get the best viewing experience. If I'm sitting 2 meters away from my TV, 720p on a 31 inch will look great. If I'm sitting 5 meters away, I'm going to want a larger screen, maybe a 50 inch TV. If I'm sitting in front of my PC, at 0.5 meters, a 20 inch monitor will suffice.
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Can't see the diff between 720p and fullHD on those 20" screens desktoppers use
Ever heard of something called "viewing distance"? People usually sit a lot closer to their monitors than their TVs, and at such distances difference between actual 720p and 1080p material is quite obvious even on smaller screens, like it is on my 24" 1920x1200 screen.
I suggest you stop posting instead of embarrassing yourself any further with mindless and ignorant statements like this.
I ran a little test, and to occupy my entire field of vision the way my big screens do, my chin would have to be resting on the "J" key of my 16" laptop's keyboard. NOT LIKELY.
Considering the slightly bigger size of 24" displays, but also the larger size of display stands and desktop keyboards, I estimate that you chin would have to be located somewhere over you spacebar or "N" key for the same effect. NOT good for posture and probably not likely.
Lol, seriously?!
1080p rips, whatever colour bitrate, whatever overall bitrate, would never even exist if the fansubbed audience wasn't using HDTVs and projectors and whatnot hooked up via vga/hdmi/dvi to their pcs/notebooks/netbooks/tablets (yeah, even those have tvouts nowadays).
Then why don't you just connect your goddamn PC to the HDTV in the first place?
Also, as Daiz said, the distance at which you watch the screen matters most. The bigger the distance from the screen, the larger the screen needs to be to get the best viewing experience. If I'm sitting 2 meters away from my TV, 720p on a 31 inch will look great. If I'm sitting 5 meters away, I'm going to want a larger screen, maybe a 50 inch TV. If I'm sitting in front of my PC, at 0.5 meters, a 20 inch monitor will suffice.
Uh, A) I do. My problem with Hi10p, as I've said a number of times, is that it's not properly compatible with a lot of players, decoders, etc., thus making it a challenge to get it to look AS GOOD as an 8-bit rip of the same filesize from the same source. Post-processing 10bit is still a problem. And players are less-than-stable.
B) There's charts for this crap. Optimal viewing distance for 40" is 4-5 feet (LESS than 2m). For 6-7ft (~2m), suggested sizes are 50-55", not 31 inches.... and 20" is just too small to HAVE an optimal viewing distance for a good widescreen experience.
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B) There's charts for this crap. Optimal viewing distance for 40" is 4-5 feet (LESS than 2m). For 6-7ft (~2m), suggested sizes are 50-55", not 31 inches.... and 20" is just too small to HAVE an optimal viewing distance for a good widescreen experience.
Dude, relax, I was just making random examples. You really need to calm down. Now, if you already connect your PC to your HDTV, then what is your problem? Also, what are you talking about? A 10bit WILL look better then an 8bit at the same file size, as long as you're playing it on a computer. That's not just my opinion, it's pretty much fact.
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I can't be the only person getting that, going around in circles feeling when reading a lot of these pages...
Every time it goes back to 10-bit not been compatible with toys as the only viable reason, before toys were very 8-bit h264 friendly did BBT give a fuck? no.
Download some remux off Nya
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You lot a bit reading-comprehension-challenged or what?
THE PROBLEM IS INCOMPLETE SOFTWARE COMPATIBILITY.
Unless we want to read through kilometers of instructions on how to get uber-quality according to yet another blogger (subjective! and confusing!), with 10-bit, we're pretty much stuck with downloading one of the several players with out-of-the-box compatibility and clicking "default" for most settings. The moment you try to tweak it up to perfection, this and that turns out to be incompatible, and it's back to a morass of reading and trial and error...
Yeah, PotPlayer is currently ALMOST as good as KM, and it can play 10bit. It doesn't even look particularly fugly, either. But better than your average HD 8-bit release with a properly setup KM player? Heeeeell no it doesn't. A properly processed 720p 8-bit looks reliably better than any 1080p Hi10p played on compatible defaults using today's non-confusing onestop solutions.
And so far, for whatever reason, that less-banding promise? Not happening yet, some of the worst banding today is on 10bit sources:
FROM EVETAKU 720p 10bit BENTO torrent found here:
(http://i.imgur.com/SSIiD.png)
Plus it crashes every once in a while.
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So ,in short, 10-bit releases don't play exactly the way you want them to play, with whatever postprocessing you use in order to make them look subjectively better to your eyes, and because of this you're so butthurt? I can't say I have much sympathy for you.
Use CCCP standard, MPC HC, no "tweaks", with EVR CP, and you will have zero crashes, as I can attest to.
Edit: Or, encode your own anime with your own settings for uber quality so you won't have to deal with all the software incompatibilities.
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But better than your average HD 8-bit release with a properly setup KM player? Heeeeell no it doesn't. A properly processed 720p 8-bit looks reliably better than any 1080p Hi10p played on compatible defaults using today's non-confusing onestop solutions.
Wait... are you suggesting postprocessing DURING playback? Because if you are, I'm going to have to laugh and point at you for being stupid.
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But better than your average HD 8-bit release with a properly setup KM player? Heeeeell no it doesn't. A properly processed 720p 8-bit looks reliably better than any 1080p Hi10p played on compatible defaults using today's non-confusing onestop solutions.
Wait... are you suggesting postprocessing DURING playback? Because if you are, I'm going to have to laugh and point at you for being stupid.
OK, maybe I called it the wrong term. Filters and stuff. WHATEVER... the whole point of watching somebody else's encodes was not having to know all this technical crap just to get a good viewing experience, no?
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OK, maybe I called it the wrong term. Filters and stuff. WHATEVER... the whole point of watching somebody else's encodes was not having to know all this technical crap just to get a good viewing experience, no?
Oh, filters. OK then. But now, in all seriousness, what technical crap are you talking about.
To get 10bit working you either go the minimal route: download and install CCCP and use MPC-HC.
If you want to get the best quality, you will have to give up on some CPU, and go the advanced route after getting CCCP:
- download and install lavfilters
- download and install madVR
- set up lav and mad to be used as default.
How is that complicated? It literally takes 15 minutes, and you don't even need to know what these things are. If you don't want to use them, that's your (and everyone else's problem, but THEY WORK).
If you don't have a good enough computer, that's not the software's fault, so you can't claim it sucks just because your pentium 4 from 2005 can't play it.
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Right, I can't get 10bit to work. Really visible for that 10-bit screenshot of horrific banding I posted above...
...and the one-stop 10bit solution is Pot Player, not CCCP.
The technical crap is figuring out what works and what doesn't past defaults.
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Right, I can't get 10bit to work. Really visible for that 10-bit screenshot of horrific banding I posted above...
...and the one-stop 10bit solution is Pot Player, not CCCP.
The technical crap is figuring out what works and what doesn't past defaults.
OK, so use PotPlayer then. I still don't understand what your problem is. You say you have your PC connected to your HDTV. You say you have PotPlayer, the one stop solution. Then what the heck IS your problem? If you can't get 10bit to work, how is that anyone's fault but your own? Thousands and thousands of people have gotten it to work, do you think we're all some sort of super-genius with computers from the future? We're just average-joe's who read a guide, followed the steps, and used our brains.
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I still don't understand what your problem is.
10-bit is FUGLY.
In practice, it is consistently WORSE than 8-bit releases at the moment.
Whatever possible gains there are, we either lose them and then some from imperfect software support, and encoders are still clueless on how to encode them properly. Look at that screenshot half a page up, DOES THAT LOOK LIKE LESS BANDING TO YOU?!?!
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10-bit is FUGLY.
In practice, it is consistently WORSE than 8-bit releases at the moment.
Whatever possible gains there are, we either lose them and then some from imperfect software support, and encoders are still clueless on how to encode them properly. Look at that screenshot half a page up, DOES THAT LOOK LIKE LESS BANDING TO YOU?!?!
Less banding then WHAT? If you want to make a comparison you have to show the exact same frame encoded from the exact same source at the exact same settings, with the only difference being the color depth. You can't just post a random picture and say "Look at all that banding, 10bit sucks!" without showing us how the 8bit and source look. How do I even know that picture if from a 10bit encode anyway? It could be upscaled from a 480p 8bit encode for all I know. Because you say so? Gonna need a little more then that.
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10-bit is FUGLY.
In practice, it is consistently WORSE than 8-bit releases at the moment.
Whatever possible gains there are, we either lose them and then some from imperfect software support, and encoders are still clueless on how to encode them properly. Look at that screenshot half a page up, DOES THAT LOOK LIKE LESS BANDING TO YOU?!?!
Less banding then WHAT? If you want to make a comparison you have to show the exact same frame encoded from the exact same source at the exact same settings, with the only difference being the color depth. You can't just post a random picture and say "Look at all that banding, 10bit sucks!" without showing us how the 8bit and source look. How do I even know that picture if from a 10bit encode anyway? It could be upscaled from a 480p 8bit encode for all I know. Because you say so? Gonna need a little more then that.
Too bad ScreenshotCompariso n is down, because I have several comparisons that meet that requirement perfectly. ;)
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10-bit is FUGLY.
In practice, it is consistently WORSE than 8-bit releases at the moment.
Whatever possible gains there are, we either lose them and then some from imperfect software support, and encoders are still clueless on how to encode them properly. Look at that screenshot half a page up, DOES THAT LOOK LIKE LESS BANDING TO YOU?!?!
Less banding then WHAT?
...
How do I even know that picture if from a 10bit encode anyway? It could be upscaled from a 480p 8bit encode for all I know. Because you say so? Gonna need a little more then that.
Less banding than anything. That screen is pure banding.
Download ep1 of EveTaku's Bento 720p Hi10p and find out. Or look through my seed list and see what kind of Bento I'm known to have on my harddrive.
Or, I dunno, maybe realize that if we start distrusting what files people attribute screencaps to on bakabt, then all hell breaks loose considering how EVERY decision-making process, from selection to approval to what users choose to download, is based on screencaps???
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Then show me some actual comparisons. I'm not saying it's not possible for a 10bit encode to look worse then a 8 bit one. Hell, I can find 480p encodes better then some 1080p encodes. But even if you find 1000 such comparisons, I can find 1000 where the 10bit looks better then the 8 bit. It's meaningless either way. This is not, and has never been a general accepted rule (that 10bit is automatically better then 8 bit). Always had BakaBT decided on a case by case basis. If 100 8bit encodes are better then their 10bit counterparts, then they shall be accepted. Nobody here said that 10bit will be automatically accepted. It will be accepted IF AN ONLY IF it is the best version. That means that if there's a better looking 8bit, it will be chosen.
What you are saying is that ALL 10bit encodes look worse then their 8 bit counterparts. That's just pain wrong. If that were the case, then why were 10bit encodes chosen over the 8bit variants? Why do you insist that all 10bit encodes look ugly? You're the only one who says that, have you considered that perhaps the problem is on your end?
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@Aadieu: The problem is that you said 10-bit has more banding than 8-bit, but you only gave a screenshot of the 10-bit encode. If you really want to show people what you mean, then you need to show a screenshot of the 8-bit encode as well. Preferably it should be encoded at the exact same settings from exact same source with exact same filters, but if you just post a screenshot of the same frame from the 8-bit version by EveTaku as well, and it does show less banding than the 8-bit, then you will at least present your point in a more acceptable manner. You can't say "This looks worse than XXX" when we don't even know ow XXX looks like. Even then, that will most likely just the case with EveTaku's version, and not something that applies globally, as I have seen much more releases where 10-bit is superior to 8-bit.
@doll_licca: You can use the age-old method of uploading both to a image hosting site. Screenshotcompariso n.com is convenient, but even without that you can still make proper comparisons.
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Download ep1 of EveTaku's Bento 720p Hi10p and find out.
Downloaded EveTaku's Ben-to 01 Hi10p, took a screenshot of frame 727...what banding?
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2227/727.png)
No clue what your screenshot is from, but it certainly doesn't seem to be EveTaku's Hi10p release.
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I'm in the middle of downloading EveTaku's 1st Ben-To episode in both 8 and 10 bits. I will them present a series of comparison shots.
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@DmonHiro: If not too much problem for you, to make sure there won't be any more bitching, please take the screenshots using standard CCCP installation (without tweaking etc. Meaning: ffdshow video decoder, standard vsfilter, and EVR-CP). This is to prevent people from saying that to get correct results you'd need to tweak your player correctly.
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This whole thread reminds me of somebody on rec.arts.anime.misc many years ago who referred to himself as "SpuerGenius" (yes, that is how he spelled it!) who stirred up the entire group because he was of the opinion that we should all upgrade our kit to the latest and greatest and that we shouldn't moan about our problems if we didn't. Of course, that was a long time ago now and we weren't talking about watching video on computers but the same thing comes to mind.
On one side, we have people arguing that we shouldn't adopt Hi10p as a standard quality because they can't play it. No doubt most of these folk are viewing on machines that are a little older and that may struggle with higher quality stuff but can't or won't go out and do what is necessary to upgrade.
On the other side we have people arguing that those that can't play Hi10p should change what they view their downloads on. Chances are that many of these folks have already upgraded to higher spec machines and would like to get the best possible result out of them.
My own thought is that the very reason why we are having such a discussion, especially given the vehement exchanges on occasion, might indicate that the time isn't quite right yet, but that we must consider that the time is coming and cannot be avoided forever. I don't necessarily like to be an early adopter because I've been stung that way too many times, but I realise that I can't stand still.
That's how I see it, anyway. ;)
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Download ep1 of EveTaku's Bento 720p Hi10p and find out.
Downloaded EveTaku's Ben-to 01 Hi10p, took a screenshot of frame 727...what banding?
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/2227/727.png)
No clue what your screenshot is from, but it certainly doesn't seem to be EveTaku's Hi10p release.
If you're looking for red circles and yellow text - that part was added by me.
Otherwise, your screenshot appears to be the same. With loads of banding.
@Aadieu: The problem is that you said 10-bit has more banding than 8-bit, but you only gave a screenshot of the 10-bit encode. If you really want to show people what you mean, then you need to show a screenshot of the 8-bit encode as well. Preferably it should be encoded at the exact same settings from exact same source with exact same filters, but if you just post a screenshot of the same frame from the 8-bit version by EveTaku as well, and it does show less banding than the 8-bit, then you will at least present your point in a more acceptable manner. You can't say "This looks worse than XXX" when we don't even know ow XXX looks like. Even then, that will most likely just the case with EveTaku's version, and not something that applies globally, as I have seen much more releases where 10-bit is superior to 8-bit.
Let me put it another way (as before someone asked for proof):
I'm not saying 8-bit is better. I'm just saying that I, so far, fail to see any benefit of 10-bit. Certainly no jaw-dropping OMFG moments. The couple times I've watched 10-bit stuff, it looked average. Mediocre. Nothing special. And the promised benefits? Better 10-bit colour, nope, don't have any such big screens on the market. Less banding? I dunno, I've seen loads of banding in all 10-bit rips I've watched. Since no one believed me, I provided proofpics. Space saving? I still say the best way to save space is to ask someone from Mazui to teach you how to encode 720p properly...
The purported benefits, if they even exist, appear to be miniscule. Meanwhile, the topic is causing a shitstorm. Is it worth it? Not from where I'm standing.
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If you're looking for red circles and yellow text - that part was added by me.
Otherwise, your screenshot appears to be the same. With loads of banding.
It seems you have a problem with your display (or maybe your eyes). I certainly don't see any banding in cyberbeing's shots. Even if there are any, it certainly doesn't look like your screenshot, which suggests you have a problem with both your player and your display (or eyes, maybe)
I'm not saying 8-bit is better.
What?
In practice, it is consistently WORSE than 8-bit releases at the moment.
Sure, you're not saying 8-bit is better, but you did say 10-bit is worse than 8-bit. Wait...
I'm just saying that I, so far, fail to see any benefit of 10-bit. Certainly no jaw-dropping OMFG moments. The couple times I've watched 10-bit stuff, it looked average. Mediocre. Nothing special. And the promised benefits? Better 10-bit colour, nope, don't have any such big screens on the market. Less banding? I dunno, I've seen loads of banding in all 10-bit rips I've watched. Since no one believed me, I provided proofpics. Space saving? I still say the best way to save space is to ask someone from Mazui to teach you how to encode 720p properly...
Do improvements have to be jaw-dropping? While in most comparisons I've seen, the difference is pretty jaw-dropping already (at least when seen with my eyes and my display), any improvement is still an improvement.
Oh yeah, Mazui's rips aren't that good anyways. And please do not speak about how to encode properly when you're not an encoder yourself.
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Any evidence that this banding cannot simply be fixed by using a dithering shader?
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Any evidence that this banding cannot simply be fixed by using a dithering shader?
I seem to recall saying that client-side post-processing is heavy, in which case, why were you complaining about 10-bit again? If I were to pick a larger 8-bit encode which still requires another deband post-processing and a smaller 10-bit encode that doesn't require any more post-processing, I'd definitely pick the latter.
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Hey hey hey, you can't just let 8-bit encodes disappear! I watch anime on my tablet too you know! I don't feel like re-encoding every single show I want to watch on it. This is just some war that some 10-bit fanboys want to win no matter what. All they do is watch their anime on their awesome PC and don't care about anyone else that watches it on something else. BakaBT is a community website that also allows the less technology gifted people to watch things on their tablet or other machines. You want to feel so elite to say "just re-encode it" to everyone that wants to watch it on something other than a PC?
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In case you're not aware, this isn't a democracy [...] What the mods are doing now is just a favor to the community[...]
Man... are you totally sure you aren't saying that just because it coincides with your own opinion? Also, if it isn't democracy, why do you post here with all the others? Unless you do it for the secret police's convenience's sake (since this isn't a democracy).
P.S. Again, hooray-10bit people have nothing to lose regardless the outcome of the poll, so they should imho take their 8bit enemies into consideration more than they do, here. What you dudes do is more like offering assistance to your landlord when he plans to increase you neighbour's rent.
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To get 10bit working you either go the minimal route: download and install CCCP and use MPC-HC.
If you want to get the best quality, you will have to give up on some CPU, and go the advanced route after getting CCCP:
- download and install lavfilters
- download and install madVR
- set up lav and mad to be used as default.
Seriously, stop recommending madvr to people. You are not going to help them after it doesn't work out, are you.
It takes a serious gpu to run it, so at least a put warning there. What if the poor soul you "helped" had some IGP or lowend card like Radeon 5400 or something? They won't even manage bilinear resizing, not to speak about bicubic! Fun fact: my directx9 radeon does better scaling than bicubic, using bloody overlay mixer.
So do the world a favour and only go recommending trusted and tested stuff, like CCCP.
Edit: Sorry for the overreaction, but I keep seeing these "tips" in many "guides" lately. People are way to confident when making those, in reality they are just unaware of the pitfalls.
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Seriously, stop recommending madvr to people. You are not going to help them after it doesn't work out, are you.
It takes a serious gpu to run it, so at least a put warning there.
Don't get mad at me, I said it quite clearly that if you want the best quality possible, you should use madvr, but you will ,have to sacrifice CPU to it. And that's ture. madVR does give you the best possible quality for 10bit. The fact that it requires more CPU is the sacrifice you have to make. If you don't want to or can't, then you stick with EVR or some other filter.
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It's not about cpu at all. Madvr needs gaming GPU, period. It like, does stuff with shaders you know, meaning that if you run it on a slow card, you simply won't hit realtime playback. And people sort of expect video renderer to always work, whatever the input resolution and framerate is...
In this regard, madvr has the downsides of haali renderer of years ago, only 20x worse (since the average gpu power has risen, :P)
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If you're looking for red circles and yellow text - that part was added by me.
Otherwise, your screenshot appears to be the same. With loads of banding.
It seems you have a problem with your display (or maybe your eyes). I certainly don't see any banding in cyberbeing's shots. Even if there are any, it certainly doesn't look like your screenshot, which suggests you have a problem with both your player and your display (or eyes, maybe)
[/quote]
Looked at it again, side by side, yep, less banding in his. Still some there (less on the thighs, but there; still some on the bag), but not as bad.
Filter? Different decoder?
Different frames? Cause I will freely admit that I scrolled through that scene frame by frame and went with the worst-offending banding I could find. And I didn't use any anti-banding filters or GPU-intensive decoders, just whatever Pot Player's default was.
But if it is the very same frame... See what I mean about the standard's software side not being very mature? Different software is producing significantly different results. And, chances are, neither of us knows exactly what he's doing right/wrong/differently to get where he is.
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It's not about cpu at all. Madvr needs gaming GPU, period.
Perhaps I'm confusing something, but weren't current GPUs unable to process 10bit videos correctly, and as such everything fell on the CPU? Isn't that why DXVA cannot be used with 10bit and why people bitch that 10bit decoding is software only?
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Ummm...
You seem to be completely mixing two things: video decoding and video rendering.
1) video decoding takes in h.264 from the demuxer and decodes it to uncompressed yuv frames.
2 video rendering takes in uncompressed yuv frames (in case of 10-bit, optionally downconverting them to plain 8-bit yuv), scales them to desired resolution and finally converts them to rgb colourspace. Then it tells the vga to put it on display at some timestamps.
DXVA does strictly 1).
Madvr does strictly 2). Madvr's goal is to do everything in step 2) using high-quality algorithms on the gpu, with shaders.
What 10-bit breaks about DXVA is stuff strictly belonging to 1) - decoding. DXVA can only do 8bit, because it is more or less fixed function hardware. Thus with 10bit, everything needs to be done on cpu in step 1).
Renderers don't just use gpu for doing step 2), they usually need some cpu power too, like games. It's probably just overlay renderer that can have negligible cpu usage. Without gpu acceleration though, they would be orders of magnitude slower. Software rendering of video wasn't even viable in the past. You can try it: have ffdshow use its scaler filter to get into fullscreen and force rgb output (there will still be some gpu work with drawing and refreshing, but...)
The only issue that 10-bit causes for step 2) is that most renderers aren't ready for input of 10-bit uncompressed frames (exceptions are MPlayer's -vo gl and madvr afaik). This is easily solved by inserting a downconversion filter at the end of step 1), which most decoders do, eliminating this problem. Alternativelly, you can push conversion to rgb from step 2 here, doing it at end of step 1) on cpu (example: lav video or ffdshow with rgb32 output forced).
TL;DR
For doing its stuff (step 2), MadVR needs lots of gpu shader power (because it does it in a high-end uncompromising way).
Note that madvr has optional decoders to do step 1, but that is irrelevant, it is simply as if it bundled its own small personal ffdshow along. Nothing changes about the process.
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TL;DR
For doing its stuff (step 2), MadVR needs lots of gpu shader power (because it does it in a high-end uncompromising way).
Note that madvr has optional decoders to do step 1, but that is irrelevant, it is simply as if it bundled its own small personal ffdshow along. Nothing changes about the process.
Aha.... thanks, now I get it. So are you saying that one does not need to use madvr to display 10bit properly, because that's what I was let do believe.
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Any evidence that this banding cannot simply be fixed by using a dithering shader?
I seem to recall saying that client-side post-processing is heavy, in which case, why were you complaining about 10-bit again? If I were to pick a larger 8-bit encode which still requires another deband post-processing and a smaller 10-bit encode that doesn't require any more post-processing, I'd definitely pick the latter.
It is a very nice attack argument you have - creationist style.
Dithering shouldn't be CPU territory.
You are, possibly intentionally, confusing CPU and GPU tasks.
10-bit is NOT post-processing - 10-bit requires the CPU to decode and thus is extremely CPU heavy.
The 10-bit crowd seems well hardware equipped for some real-time dithering shaders - so the question remains,
Why can't the quality / hardware fetishist crowd simply use dithering shaders and leave the video AS IS compatible with most GPUs?
Seriously, stop recommending madvr to people. You are not going to help them after it doesn't work out, are you.
It takes a serious gpu to run it, so at least a put warning there.
Don't get mad at me, I said it quite clearly that if you want the best quality possible, you should use madvr, but you will ,have to sacrifice CPU to it. And that's ture. madVR does give you the best possible quality for 10bit. The fact that it requires more CPU is the sacrifice you have to make. If you don't want to or can't, then you stick with EVR or some other filter.
... and people like you are negative to the 10-bit movement because your recommendations simply alienate user hardware which are fully capable of running 10-bit.
Reccomending MadVR is bad for two reason,
MadVR uses more CPU than any other renderer - thus worst performance for CPU-heavy encodes (such as HD XVID and 10-bit)
MadVR uses the GPU for some quality improving Shish kebab - 10-bit is CPU-only and any Intel GPU is PERFECT for it.
You are alienating users with borderline-acceptable CPUs and normal (less-than-gamer) GPUs.
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... and people like you are negative to the 10-bit movement because your recommendations simply alienate user hardware which are fully capable of running 10-bit.
Reccomending MadVR is bad for two reason,
MadVR uses more CPU than any other renderer - thus worst performance for CPU-heavy encodes (such as HD XVID and 10-bit)
MadVR uses the GPU for some quality improving Shish kebab - 10-bit is CPU-only.
You are alienating users with borderline-acceptable CPUs and less-than-gamer GPUs.
Yes, I was misinformed as to how madVR actually works. OnDeed has been kind enough to explain it to me. Still, the fact that madVR does provide higher quality is correct, so my previous statement that you would have to sacrifice more resources to it if you want the highest quality output still stands. Basically, if you have a high-end PC, use madVR. If you don't, use EVR.
However, we are getting WAY off topic here, and should probably stop.
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It is a very nice attack argument you have - creationist style.
Dithering shouldn't be CPU territory.
You are, possibly intentionally, confusing CPU and GPU tasks.
10-bit is NOT post-processing - 10-bit requires the CPU to decode and thus is extremely CPU heavy.
The 10-bit crowd seems well hardware equipped for some real-time dithering shaders - so the question remains,
Why can't the quality / hardware fetishist crowd simply use dithering shaders and leave the video AS IS compatible with most GPUs?
What the hell? You seem like you really don't know what you're talking about. Whoever said 10-bit is post-processing? 10-bit is heavier on CPU, but 8-bit with this "dither shader" you mentioned will also require more resource as well. In this case, the hardware requirements will end up the same, maybe even higher (For sure I can't run any deband filter on any 1080p encode without some serious lag, but I can play 10-bit 1080p with only some unnoticeable frame drops). Also, why should we, as the end-user, suffer through manually setting up the dithering when the encoder can do it as well, and if the encoder actually knows what he's doing, give better results?
Btw as OnDeed mentioned, madVR doesn't take much more CPU power than any other renderer. At the very least, using an old 2.4GHz C2D shows almost no increase in CPU usage by using madVR or EVR. It takes much more GPU though.
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Hey hey hey, you can't just let 8-bit encodes disappear! I watch anime on my tablet too you know! I don't feel like re-encoding every single show I want to watch on it. This is just some war that some 10-bit fanboys want to win no matter what. All they do is watch their anime on their awesome PC and don't care about anyone else that watches it on something else. BakaBT is a community website that also allows the less technology gifted people to watch things on their tablet or other machines. You want to feel so elite to say "just re-encode it" to everyone that wants to watch it on something other than a PC?
Yeah, that's pretty much what they're doing. But y'know what...? WE - ARE - THE 51%!
(At least, as of this moment.) ;D
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It is a very nice attack argument you have - creationist style.
Dithering shouldn't be CPU territory.
You are, possibly intentionally, confusing CPU and GPU tasks.
10-bit is NOT post-processing - 10-bit requires the CPU to decode and thus is extremely CPU heavy.
The 10-bit crowd seems well hardware equipped for some real-time dithering shaders - so the question remains,
Why can't the quality / hardware fetishist crowd simply use dithering shaders and leave the video AS IS compatible with most GPUs?
What the hell? You seem like you really don't know what you're talking about. Whoever said 10-bit is post-processing? 10-bit is heavier on CPU, but 8-bit with this "dither shader" you mentioned will also require more resource as well. In this case, the hardware requirements will end up the same, maybe even higher (For sure I can't run any deband filter on any 1080p encode without some serious lag, but I can play 10-bit 1080p with only some unnoticeable frame drops). Also, why should we, as the end-user, suffer through manually setting up the dithering when the encoder can do it as well, and if the encoder actually knows what he's doing, give better results?
Btw as OnDeed mentioned, madVR doesn't take much more CPU power than any other renderer. At the very least, using an old 2.4GHz C2D shows almost no increase in CPU usage by using madVR or EVR. It takes much more GPU though.
You said that or you worded your argument in such a convoluted manner that I thought you did.
You are seriously underestimating the power of modern GPUs - how old is the NV 9800 for example? - that is plenty of power for real time dithering (exactly like the cat picture on the wiki article). Again, video type does not effect the GPU's ability to apply shaders before output (even with DXVA as DXVA is just a chip on the GPU dedicated to h264).
Because that way - quality fetishists can use fancy filtering to achieve their boners and the rest can just watch movies in a standard video format?
Kinda contradicting though, you talking about the horrible performance of shaders on hardware while saying that you do not notice the massive performance differences between EVR|VMR and MadVR and Haali Renderer (Installed with Haali Splitter).
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You said that or you worded your argument in such a convoluted manner that I thought you did.
You are seriously underestimating the power of modern GPUs - how old is the NV 9800 for example? - that is plenty of power for real time dithering (exactly like the cat picture on the wiki article). Again, video type does not effect the GPU's ability to apply shaders before output (even with DXVA as DXVA is just a chip on the GPU dedicated to h264).
Because that way - quality fetishists can use fancy filtering to achieve their boners and the rest can just watch movies in a standard video format?
Kinda contradicting though, you talking about the horrible performance of shaders on hardware while saying that you do not notice the massive performance differences between EVR|VMR and MadVR and Haali Renderer (Installed with Haali Splitter).
Aerah, you seem to be forgetting that 10-bit provides benefits that cannot be gained by using any amount of shaders, filters, or whatever, when playing the video. The main benefits of 10-bit are in a) preventing banding from being introduced during the reencoding process, and b) increasing precision, thus improving compression, and in turn leading to much more efficient use of bitrate - and thus higher quality, or lower filesizes.
Obviously neither of these things can be achieved by the video player (as you well know - it's been explained many times already in this thread), so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.
Also, the argument about whether MadVR uses more cpu or gpu seems completely irrelevant. It is a slightly higher-quality renderer that also uses more resources. EVR is perfectly good, so you don't really lose out on much by not using MadVR. It's just an option that is available if you have the resources available. Since it is completely unneccesary if you want to play 10-bit, and the quality improvement is so small as to be almost unnoticeable, it seems pretty irrelevant to this discussion.
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You said that or you worded your argument in such a convoluted manner that I thought you did.
So you seem to have a comprehension problem, I take it.
You are seriously underestimating the power of modern GPUs - how old is the NV 9800 for example? - that is plenty of power for real time dithering (exactly like the cat picture on the wiki article). Again, video type does not effect the GPU's ability to apply shaders before output (even with DXVA as DXVA is just a chip on the GPU dedicated to h264).
If you have the cash to get a modern GPU, then you also have the cash to get a modern CPU capable of playing 10-bit in the first place.
Because that way - quality fetishists can use fancy filtering to achieve their boners and the rest can just watch movies in a standard video format?
Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality? Because if you do, then the rest can also get a lower resolution 10-bit video to cope with their old hardware. Also, if you are an encoder, you'd know that any filter that actually gives good results are too heavy for real-time playback.
(Btw I don't know of any shaders that actually does deband; all I know to do real-time deband is via ffdshow. If you know of any of this debanding shaders for MPC-HC, please point a link to me as I would like to test it.)
Kinda contradicting though, you talking about the horrible performance of shaders on hardware while saying that you do not notice the massive performance differences between EVR|VMR and MadVR and Haali Renderer (Installed with Haali Splitter).
Whoever said there aren't any performance difference? There is, but it is on the GPU performance. CPU load? Using EVR I get 15-19% CPU usage, using madVR I get 16-19% CPU usage. I certainly wouldn't call that 1% difference a "massive performance difference." Even madVR's thread on doom9 explicitly states that all work are done via GPU. Stop misleading people with your uninformed statements.
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Dunno, about you but I never noticed gradient/banding problems with large quality 8-bit encodes. :/
On the positive side,
- CoreAVC 3.1 promises performance improvements for 9-bit and 10-bit media (sometime in early '12?)
- New MPC:HC builds promises better subtitle performance (sometimes in '12... they are slow)
I am currently trying to re-encode [jackoneill] The Third MKV with Handbrake.
First attempt gave out a 150MB file which turned out very very bad. (using VerySlow from http://bytebin.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/x264-presetstunes-and-handbrake/)
Now trying with Avg. Bitrate instead of constant quality.
@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
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@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
Much lower quality? Most of your "high quality" 1080p releases are from upscaled Blu-Rays anyway (and because of this not much new 1080p torrents are going to be accepted anyway except maybe in some special cases), so I don't think you'd lose that much. The only reason I brought this up is because your statements are hypocritical; from the beginning I don't care if people with lower-end hardwares will need to get lower-resolution releases (even if I myself were also in that crowd; I see the lack of hardware capability as my own shortcoming and not the releaser's responsibility to cater to that). However, you from beginning mentioned how 10-bit will force people to watch in lower quality, then you go ahead and said that the rest who lack the sufficient hardware to do real-time filtering can watch in lower quality. What a hypocrite.
Also, you don't notice banding on large quality 8-bit encodes, there are two possibilities: either your eyes aren't sharp enough to notice those (in which case, you shouldn't care about this "lower quality" you speak of), or the 8-bit had such a large bitrate to preserve the dither.
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@RedSuisei
"Are you saying that with this, the rest can just watch with lower quality?" also applies to the move to 10-bit. Before 1080p h264 FLAC fansubs - after 720p/480p 10-bit h264 fansubs - low-hardware crowd will have to watch in MUCH MUCH lower quality.
Much lower quality? Most of your "high quality" 1080p releases are from upscaled Blu-Rays anyway (and because of this not much new 1080p torrents are going to be accepted anyway except maybe in some special cases), so I don't think you'd lose that much. The only reason I brought this up is because your statements are hypocritical; from the beginning I don't care if people with lower-end hardwares will need to get lower-resolution releases (even if I myself were also in that crowd; I see the lack of hardware capability as my own shortcoming and not the releaser's responsibility to cater to that). However, you from beginning mentioned how 10-bit will force people to watch in lower quality, then you go ahead and said that the rest who lack the sufficient hardware to do real-time filtering can watch in lower quality. What a hypocrite.
Also, you don't notice banding on large quality 8-bit encodes, there are two possibilities: either your eyes aren't sharp enough to notice those (in which case, you shouldn't care about this "lower quality" you speak of), or the 8-bit had such a large bitrate to preserve the dither.
The "lower quality" for "the rest who lack the sufficient hardware" is the first-half of '11 8-bit releases by master-level fansub groups. The visual thing 10-bit crowd is complaining about is just un-smooth transitions - especially noticeable in gradients - I don't why this cannot be fixed by filtering.
There is no "lower quality" in this suggestion. There is only higher quality achieved without switching to a software decoding.
The hyporcrite is the one who promotes Hi10p which alienates low-end CPU power but cries foul when a suggestion is given which alienates low-end GPUs.
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Btw as OnDeed mentioned, madVR doesn't take much more CPU power than any other renderer. At the very least, using an old 2.4GHz C2D shows almost no increase in CPU usage by using madVR or EVR. It takes much more GPU though.
I didn't say that... actually people do say it takes more cpu. And wait a moment, EVR has quite some cpu overhead, compared to overlay, so it's not a huge win to beat it :) But people seldom need to worry about madvr's cpu usage as said, since it needs a gaming-worthy gpu anyway (thus it probably won't find itself in a pc with slow cpu).
P.S.
Regarding re-encoding downloaded rips... that is imho silly, obnoxious and unreasonable. Just a PITA. If anyone really wants to recommend that to people, he or she better stop and go right for the "get you stuff elsewhere" line. Getting other encodes at other places is a practical choice, re-encoding isn't.
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Regarding re-encoding downloaded rips... that is imho silly, obnoxious and unreasonable. Just a PITA. If anyone really wants to recommend that to people, he or she better stop and go right for the "get you stuff elsewhere" line. Getting other encodes at other places is a practical choice, re-encoding isn't.
Totally agree.
p.s. Maybe too much of self-centered thinking here(any side). To the point it looks like Discrimination.
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Time out!
Will someone tell me already why it is that persons involved in this discussion are getting radically different results from Hi10p playback, with little to OVER9000 level banding, as seen in screenshots of the same scene from the same file?
Also a good time to figure out what part of that is attributable to decoders, what part - to settings, what part to GPU/processing capabilities, and what part to filters?
Cause while it's pretty easy to blame my screenshot on my "doing it wrong", is it also not easy to suspect the better results of "doing it TOO right" (aka introducing results of various technologies that vastly improve visuals and misrepresenting these results as those of the 8bit >> 10bit switch, when in fact they might have shit-all to do with colour bitrates or encodings)?
...ARE WE EVEN SURE THAT ANY OF THE DIFFERENCE "SHOWN" ANYWHERE AT ALL CAN BE ATTRIBUTED TO ANYTHING BUT GPU AND MADVR? Or any other differences due to owners of finetuned hi-end systems posting their top-of-the-line 10bit screens vs. basic users with average systems and no finetuning providing the 8bits for comparison?
Also, could somebody that got "pretty" results (screenshots) on a 10bit release do comparison shots with the same group's similar-filesize 8bit version of the same anime, while running the same player and the same presets? (Yeah I know that guy from UTW did that, but he was selecting screens of his own encoding to illustrate his own point - not exactly a perfect unbiased situation, a clean experiment would have to be done by someone without a prior conclusion and without the encoder's knowledge; and, in any case, both of his encodes were badly bitrate-starved, yet both looked pretty good and not exactly radically different, either)
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I think this community has a lot of people who can't play high resolution 10bit files properly. So I hope that BakaBT will decide that there will remain an 8bit SD slot. I mean, it took ages before XviD was waved goodbye, so I don't see a reason to not do the same here. :>
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Time out!
Will someone tell me already why it is that persons involved in this discussion are getting radically different results from Hi10p playback, with little to OVER9000 level banding, as seen in screenshots of the same scene from the same file?
Also a good time to figure out what part of that is attributable to decoders, what part - to settings, what part to GPU/processing capabilities, and what part to filters?
Cause while it's pretty easy to blame my screenshot on my "doing it wrong", is it also not easy to suspect the better results of "doing it TOO right" (aka introducing results of various technologies that vastly improve visuals and misrepresenting these results as those of the 8bit >> 10bit switch, when in fact they might have shit-all to do with colour bitrates or encodings)?
If TV->PC levels conversion and/or YUV->RGB conversion is done poorly, you will create banding which doesn't exist in the source.
You or something you are using is doing something is doing something that hurts quality. Since this actually shows up in your screenshots, I'd suspect PotPlayer, or how you have PotPlayer set up may be to blame. Could you retest using MPC-HC + FFDShow with a standard CCCP install? I'd also like to see you take a screenshot with madVR, which will avoid anything your GPU Driver may or may not be doing which hurts quality.
The other factor is your monitor. Especially in the past, there were many LCD displays which would show banding when displaying a smooth 8-bit gradient. Do you see banding in any of the following smooth gradients?
RGB Spectrum (http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6051/spectrumrgb.png)
RGB Linear Gradient (http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5005/8bitfullgradcolor.png)
Gray Linear Gradient (http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3531/8bitfullgradgray.png)
Red Linear Gradient (http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1843/8bitfullgrad1red.png)
Green Linear Gradient (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2109/8bitfullgrad2green.png)
Blue Linear Gradient (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9985/8bitfullgrad3blue.png)
Gray Horizontal Gradient (http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9176/gradhor01.png)
Gray Vertical Gradient (http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1339/gradvert01.png)
...ARE WE EVEN SURE THAT ANY OF THE DIFFERENCE "SHOWN" ANYWHERE AT ALL CAN BE ATTRIBUTED TO ANYTHING BUT GPU AND MADVR? Or any other differences due to owners of finetuned hi-end systems posting their top-of-the-line 10bit screens vs. basic users with average systems and no finetuning providing the 8bits for comparison?
Also, could somebody that got "pretty" results (screenshots) on a 10bit release do comparison shots with the same group's similar-filesize 8bit version of the same anime, while running the same player and the same presets? (Yeah I know that guy from UTW did that, but he was selecting screens of his own encoding to illustrate his own point - not exactly a perfect unbiased situation, a clean experiment would have to be done by someone without a prior conclusion and without the encoder's knowledge; and, in any case, both of his encodes were badly bitrate-starved, yet both looked pretty good and not exactly radically different, either)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/565/evrcp8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/51/evrcp10bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ madVR (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6842/madvr8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ madVR (http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4791/madvr10bit.png)
None of these look as bad as your screenshot and I'm not doing anything special. Decoded Video -> Renderer, that's it.
For reasons stated above, madVR will have less banding compared to EVR-CP, but there is still a noticeable difference between 8bit and 10-bit either way.
As far as discrete GPUs which work with madVR, you are probably looking at ~$55-75 for something decent. madVR really doesn't need GPU which is particularly powerful, just something above most entry-level discrete, mobile, and integrated GPUs. As stated by RedSuisei, there is a slightly higher CPU load using madVR (+ 1% to 5% depending on CPU speed), but unless you are running your CPU constantly at 90%+ it shouldn't be noticeable.
The computer I'm testing is rather low-end by today's standards, and it handles 10bit 1080p under ~35Mbps with FFDShow, LAV Video, or CoreAVC + madVR + xy-VSFilter just fine:
AMD X2 4800+ (939) @2.4Ghz
2GB DDR400
NVIDIA 7800GTX 512
WinXP SP3 x86
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If TV->PC levels conversion and/or YUV->RGB conversion is done poorly, you will create banding which doesn't exist in the source.
You or something you are using is doing something is doing something that hurts quality. Since this actually shows up in your screenshots, I'd suspect PotPlayer, or how you have PotPlayer set up may be to blame. Could you retest using MPC-HC + FFDShow with a standard CCCP install? I'd also like to see you take a screenshot with madVR, which will avoid anything your GPU Driver may or may not be doing which hurts quality.
The other factor is your monitor. Especially in the past, there were many LCD displays which would show banding when displaying a smooth 8-bit gradient. Do you see banding in any of the following smooth gradients?
RGB Spectrum (http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6051/spectrumrgb.png)
RGB Linear Gradient (http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5005/8bitfullgradcolor.png)
Gray Linear Gradient (http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3531/8bitfullgradgray.png)
Red Linear Gradient (http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/1843/8bitfullgrad1red.png)
Green Linear Gradient (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2109/8bitfullgrad2green.png)
Blue Linear Gradient (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9985/8bitfullgrad3blue.png)
Gray Horizontal Gradient (http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9176/gradhor01.png)
Gray Vertical Gradient (http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/1339/gradvert01.png)
OK... tell me you're pulling my leg here?!? These things don't look smooth at all. o_O
BUT... I'm 250% sure I've seen plenty of gradients without banding on this computer and this monitor. Hell, no ass in porn ever looked banded... And even the less-banded screenshots of EveTaku Bento look - well - less banded... and no photograph has ever shown banding or gradient problems... AND I've watched plenty of banding-free animes, encoded at anything from ~700 to 6000+kbit/s, resolutions from sub-SD to FullHD, with none of this crap happening.
Plus, hell, even the background of the "topic summary" stripe here has a gradient - and thas all nice and smooth? And windows aero looks plenty banding-free??
...what gives?!?
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EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/565/evrcp8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/51/evrcp10bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ madVR (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6842/madvr8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ madVR (http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4791/madvr10bit.png)
None of these look as bad as your screenshot and I'm not doing anything special. Decoded Video -> Renderer, that's it.
ACTUALLY... madVR looks better (with madVR 8bit best, slightly better than madVR 10bit... but EVR 8bit and 10bit tied for worst, with 10bit perhaps even worse???) ... and both the EVRs, for whatever reason, look just as banded as my own screenshot *on this screen, as connected to this computer*. Ok,what gives?!?!
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ACTUALLY... madVR looks better (with madVR 8bit best, slightly better than madVR 10bit... but EVR 8bit and 10bit tied for worst, with 10bit perhaps even worse???) ... and both the EVRs, for whatever reason, look just as banded as my own screenshot *on this screen, as connected to this computer*. Ok,what gives?!?!
Well, that settles it then. It's either your monitor, or your eyesight.
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Ok, seeing as how the rest of the world don't look banded and there ain't any such eyesight disorder anyway - what the hell is wrong with my TV??? And why does it only show some banding, but not across the board? And why almost none in madVR screencaps?!?!
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The reason those gradients that cyberbeing look banded is because most of them aren't smooth gradients - ie. the colour changes in bands anyway. That's what they're meant to look like (a couple of them aren't - such as the RGB Spectrum and grey vertical gradient).
And if the problem was your monitor, then obviously we would not have been able to see it in your screenshot, would we? The screenshots would look identical to us if your monitor was the only problem.
Your software is most likely what's causing your issues (although your monitor and/or eyesight might also be problematic). My advice is to just completely uninstall PotPlayer and whatever else you're using, install CCCP, and see how it looks at default settings in the included player, without changing anything. There should be a noticeable improvement.
Anyway, this thread has gone massively off-topic now. The discussion has pretty much run its course, so maybe someone should lock it?
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I think this community has a lot of people who can't play high resolution 10bit files properly. So I hope that BakaBT will decide that there will remain an 8bit SD slot. I mean, it took ages before XviD was waved goodbye, so I don't see a reason to not do the same here. :>
And the differences between ASP encoders (xvid) and x264 is very large, both in compression and in the visual quality that is achievable. Which isn't the case here, 10-bit might help a lot when you have gradients in a cg-rendered anime, but for hand-drawn stuff, there really won't be banding unless the encoder screws up. In that case, 10-bit will likely only give you the small general compression benefit (0-5% bitrate reduction?).
In short, xvid was a morally dead format compared to h.264, since it simply never was very good. But that can't be said about 8-bit h.264 today at all (when compared to 10-bit h.264). Plain high profile h.264 stays to be a perfectly good format (assuming that x264 gets used, naturally.)
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While OnDeed is correct, there is something he/she is forgetting. Almost every single xvid release is compatible with almost any player. It's actually quite hard to make an incompatible xvid .avi. That is not the case with h264. Most players cannot play anything that is encoded in a too high profile, for example. And since most encoders don't care, a vast majority of HD 8bit encodes were never compatible with hardware players to begin with. Expect media players, like WDLive, I guess. So yeah...
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Here we have over 20 pages of nothing but illogical bickering.
It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit. If the file is smaller and the quality > or = then i see no reason why we can't close this thread right now. If you have an 10 year old PC then that's your problem, don't go causing problems for the rest.
as i said in my last post:
So who wins the poll? The one with the most votes or only the one with >50% of the total votes?
Can't we just make a compromise? Some want 6 months and some want them now. How about we treat 10bit equally with 8bit releases starting this spring? Until then upload the FullHD 8bit ones too along side 10bit (that's if the 10bit ones are better of course).
The codecs and players are already good enough to play the files, but we can let them work a whole winter to sort out the remaining bugs, performance issues and also the fansubbing groups to become more proficient at using 10bit.
In my opinion, by then all new HD (720/1080p) releases will be in 10bit.
PS: for me the madvr 10bit looks better then the rest of the screens for ben-to (i also use madvr + potplayer +lav). Does anyone have screens of the BD 8/10bit?
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Here we have over 20 pages of nothing but illogical bickering.
It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit. If the file is smaller and the quality > or = then i see no reason why we can't close this thread right now. If you have an 10 year old PC then that's your problem, don't go causing problems for the rest.
as i said in my last post:
So who wins the poll? The one with the most votes or only the one with >50% of the total votes?
Can't we just make a compromise? Some want 6 months and some want them now. How about we treat 10bit equally with 8bit releases starting this spring? Until then upload the FullHD 8bit ones too along side 10bit (that's if the 10bit ones are better of course).
The codecs and players are already good enough to play the files, but we can let them work a whole winter to sort out the remaining bugs, performance issues and also the fansubbing groups to become more proficient at using 10bit.
In my opinion, by then all new HD (720/1080p) releases will be in 10bit.
PS: for me the madvr 10bit looks better then the rest of the screens for ben-to (i also use madvr + potplayer +lav). Does anyone have screens of the BD 8/10bit?
Thing is, wanting to keep an 8bit slot is not causing a problem for any 10bit fans, since they should still have their awesome 1080p/720p/whatever in 10bit. So it's actually those fanboys causing problems for the ones that can't view it.
Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
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Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
Obviously there is, if the staff of BakaBT asked the question in the first place. If there was no harm, nobody would be asking the question.
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Hey hey hey, you can't just let 8-bit encodes disappear! I watch anime on my tablet too you know! I don't feel like re-encoding every single show I want to watch on it.
I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?
BakaBT is a community website that also allows the less technology gifted people to watch things on their tablet or other machines.
They aren't focusing on it, so if you want something that can be played on a device which can't use sw decode, I would say sites like animebytes would be better for you.
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Ok, seeing as how the rest of the world don't look banded and there ain't any such eyesight disorder anyway - what the hell is wrong with my TV??? And why does it only show some banding, but not across the board? And why almost none in madVR screencaps?!?!
Turns out, you cannot notice the difference on 16-235 screens (AKA, 99% of laptops).
Just opened the screenshots also notices zero difference.
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While OnDeed is correct, there is something he/she is forgetting. Almost every single xvid release is compatible with almost any player. It's actually quite hard to make an incompatible xvid .avi.
Most hardware ASP players don't do well with GMC or QPEL. I also have some files that refuse to play at all.
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Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
Spreads the seed pool out more than needed
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It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit.
Pardon?
42% of respondents feel the need to push 10-bit in this poll. 7% didn't vote and 51% want at least one 8bit slot. The poll options fragment those people but that doesn't change the fact that they are a majority.
And there is still the likelihood that active proponents are more likely to vote here, compared to casual watchers that can be expected to have higher interest in HW-compatible, conservative format.
Spreads the seed pool out more than needed
Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
Almost every single xvid release is compatible with almost any player. It's actually quite hard to make an incompatible xvid .avi.
I don't think that's true. First, most older players refused your file if it actually didn't have a divx fourcc. Then as mentioned, there is the question of qpel and GMC (bonus: xvid's gmc can be incompatible with player that supports divx's gmc).
Xvid files are widely compatible only as long as you keep to the basic setup, and that's what many encodes use (no qpel, no gmc; note that a lot of encodes don't even use bframes).
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Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.
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Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
Obviously there is, if the staff of BakaBT asked the question in the first place. If there was no harm, nobody would be asking the question.
Obviously not. If it would harm anyone, there would be no need to ask. Precisely because they aren't sure what is best to do, they are asking it. I believe there is no harm in keeping 8bit encodes.
And also, who exactly is harmed by having an 8bit encode?
I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?
Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
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It is clear that the vast majority want 10bit to be treated equally with 8bit.
Pardon?
42% of respondents feel the need to push 10-bit in this poll. 7% didn't vote and 51% want at least one 8bit slot. The poll options fragment those people but that doesn't change the fact that they are a majority.
And there is still the likelihood that active proponents are more likely to vote here, compared to casual watchers that can be expected to have higher interest in HW-compatible, conservative format.
Two thing.
1. I'm one of those 51%, and I voted that because it don't feel like readings comments like "why can't i play this file :(" or "what a crappy encode, I can't play it with WMP" and so on, and also because I think there is no point in 10 bit for slot C.
2. The casual watcher could also have no interest, which is as likely as they have interest.
I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?
Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
which tablet do you have, and which player are you using?
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I'm able to watch 10-bit on my smartphone with SW decoding, so why can't you watch 10-bit on your tablet?
Because I don't have a high-end tablet.
which tablet do you have, and which player are you using?
I have a Tomtec 7 inch Tablet 4 GB with Android 2.3.
I didn't download another player yet, as I just got a new one from Tomtec after a month or so and I don't recall what player I used before. I could play 720p MKV, but without subtitles.
But yeah, it's a cheaper one.
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Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.
I am not having any luck re-encoding :(
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Irrelevant. People who would want an 8-bit encode won't seed a 10-bit one.
No, if there's no choice they will get the 10-bit and learn to adapt...it's quite obvious that less choices = more seeders on the choices available.
Some might "learn". More might adapt by ignoring you and going elsewhere. That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
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That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
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That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
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That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
It's actually more like the hospital is closing down it's discount wards, so everyone who wants treatment will have to pay full price. I was gonna say free clinic, but that's incorrect.
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Seriously, there is no harm in just having an 8bit slot.
Spreads the seed pool out more than needed
I don't think this would be much of a problem.
8-bit versions are still popular. It's not like the arrival of 10-bit is such a huge magic that makes everyone considered 8-bit obsolete.
And there are people who craving for good ratio here. So don't worry about the seeders.
Since when 8-bit h.264 has suddenly sunk so low as to become "cheap, third-class hospitals" or "discount wards" ? ???
If you exaggerating thing that way, how about the good old case between Xvid and h264 ?
Wouldn't h264 be the Heaven canceller Godlike hospital or something, and Xvid would be some credulous remotely island clinic then?
So for Xvid, just hunt & burn 'em down like witch hunting?
No, it wasn't like that, at least on community scale.
I love 10-bit. But isn't it too much...
Now some talks like 8-bit is immorral toxic thing that should be get rid ASAP.
And people who still watching 8-bits is such a brainless sinner, cheap third-class people?
Don't over worry that the people would not learn the holy 10-bit path. Most of them have brains too (not the anti ones).
With elitist encoders all around now releasing and people keep offering 10-bit already, they would adapt for sure.
(just maybe not fast enough to satisfy some sights, that's all.)
Duki3003 edit: Don't double post.
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That's like thinking that if you close down the hospital, people won't be ill.
It really isn't....
+1. It's more like closing down cheap, third-class hospitals will cause people to work harder and get better treatment at the better, more expensive hospitals...?
It's actually more like the hospital is closing down it's discount wards, so everyone who wants treatment will have to pay full price. I was gonna say free clinic, but that's incorrect.
I have to agree with this one. I've pointed out earlier that that's what I'd do, and I think I've proven my point that those of us exist with very nice hardware that can and will have problems with 10-bit in it's current state. However, it seems to me, and obviously this is based on my opinion, that the more reasonable posts from me and others are entirely overlooked in favor of the screaming idiots.
10-bit is better for anime more then any other source type for the very simple reason that gradients won't be dithered (much, if at all) until the end of the line, which is hard to argue. If you combine that with an undithered source medium (doctored or no), a player that can deal with it properly, a group that encoded it properly, hardware (I hate to break it to you guys, but computers are made up of hardware as well -- using the term hardware for both old computers and set-top boxes probably isn't the best idea in terms of discussion) that can deal with it without needing any hardware based acceleration, and a properly configured monitor or TV (most of them are, in fact, NOT, configured properly and can and will introduce banding without tweaking, if the screen is capable). There is no arguing any of that, it's all true, and will be of better quality when the right conditions are met.
I meet most of those conditions, except that since I choose to not sit in front on a monitor, and use software meant for media-center-style viewing (XBMC), it'll be a bit of time yet before 10-bit is a good choice.
Personally I would have a hard time justifying the use of 10-bit even for the sake of quality, since there are inarguably a lot of reasons not to use it. At the same time, I don't manage this site at all, and I imagine most of the people in the thread don't either, don't take their efforts for granted! They asked, the least we can do is keep it civil.
Oh, to the guy that recently brought up bigger seeding pools by forcing people to adapt. Wow.
My vote is still for the pretend poll option - 10-bit is probably the future, but it's still premature. Re-evaluate in 6 months.
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Funny thing, I was actually thinking about a completely different topic (Bandai closing in the US) when I made that hospital reference. It's just a coincidence that it fits here too.
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Funny thing, I was actually thinking about a completely different topic (Bandai closing in the US) when I made that hospital reference. It's just a coincidence that it fits here too.
Hah! True that.
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Download ep1 of EveTaku's Bento 720p Hi10p and find out.
Downloaded EveTaku's Ben-to 01 Hi10p, took a screenshot of frame 727...what banding?
(removal of big screenshot)
No clue what your screenshot is from, but it certainly doesn't seem to be EveTaku's Hi10p release.
Well, ScreenshotCompariso n is kind of up, and I know that folks wanted a comparison between 8-bit and 10-bit encoded to the same settings, and I happen to have a few from some of the series I worked on.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90858 <--- Happy Kappi Episode 9, 720p
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/90855 <--- Happy Kappi Episode 17, 480p
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/89533 <--- Pollyanna Episode 11, 480p
These were taken using MPC-HC with CCCP installed to their default settings. The way I encode is that I encode 8-bit and 10-bit using the exact same settings for each of them. The one caveat is that these screenshots are with the first version of CCCP that supported Hi10P, so there may be some residual tinting issues as it was trying to compensate for it.
I'll let everyone interpret them, as my eyes are not exactly the sharpest things around and I tend to miss issues that other people would catch.
Edit: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=322467 <--- This was a thread I started on MAL about Hi10P and its use in older series. It has a few comparison screenshots as well, although it also includes XviD and VP8, which is not relevant to this discussion.
I'm going to get some rest, so feel free to leave me any questions that I'll try to answer tomorrow morning.
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http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/89533 <--- Pollyanna Episode 11, 480p
Please don't use jpg in comparisons.
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OK... tell me you're pulling my leg here?!? These things don't look smooth at all. o_O
BUT... I'm 250% sure I've seen plenty of gradients without banding on this computer and this monitor. Hell, no ass in porn ever looked banded... And even the less-banded screenshots of EveTaku Bento look - well - less banded... and no photograph has ever shown banding or gradient problems... AND I've watched plenty of banding-free animes, encoded at anything from ~700 to 6000+kbit/s, resolutions from sub-SD to FullHD, with none of this crap happening.
Plus, hell, even the background of the "topic summary" stripe here has a gradient - and thas all nice and smooth? And windows aero looks plenty banding-free??
...what gives?!?
The reason those gradients that cyberbeing look banded is because most of them aren't smooth gradients - ie. the colour changes in bands anyway. That's what they're meant to look like (a couple of them aren't - such as the RGB Spectrum and grey vertical gradient).
The gradients are not dithered, but they should appear smooth and even without any color cast. If you see any large or uneven banding, it's a limitation of the monitor (assuming it is in its default state without any color profile or calibration lut loaded in Windows). Large even 8-bit gradients which aren't dithered are very hard for monitors to render smooth without a built-in LUT. Large uneven 8-bit gradients will never appear perfectly smooth without dithering. Displays with extremely high brightness and contrast ratios, especially those which advertise massive contrast ratios like 100,000:1 using dynamic contrast, can make 8-bit banding more obvious since the luminance difference between 8-bit values would be greater.
By definition banding is often defined as pixel transitions greater than a single 8-bit pixel value, so none of those images would be considered to have banding, but they do have 8-bit steps. It's a good example of why 8-bit (256 values) is so poor at making gradients in general, and why dithering from 10-bit (1024 values) helps quality so much.
For reference, the linear gradients have a 7-8-7-8 pattern with one pixel transitions when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen, for example 5555555566666667777 77778888888
The horizontal and vertical gradients should appear even smoother with denser 2-2 pattern when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen, for example 55667788
The RGB spectrum image should appear the smoothest when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen since it's dithered.
For variation, here are a few more gradients.
Linear Gradient with 5-5 pattern (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2/szarosc.png)
Linear Gradient with 2-2 pattern (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/186/gradientlr.png)
Alternative RGB Spectrum dithered (http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4269/g0000.png)
ACTUALLY... madVR looks better (with madVR 8bit best, slightly better than madVR 10bit... but EVR 8bit and 10bit tied for worst, with 10bit perhaps even worse???) ... and both the EVRs, for whatever reason, look just as banded as my own screenshot *on this screen, as connected to this computer*. Ok,what gives?!?!
The skirt shows the most noticeable banding differences. It seems clear that your monitor just has trouble rendering gradients, but something is funky with your setup as well since your 10-bit screenshots look worse than my 8-bit screenshots, and my 10-bit screenshots look better still. Could be an issue with how you are taking screenshots, could be Potplayer doing something weird, could be your GPU driver.
Another thing worth mentioning, is that nobody should be viewing comparison images in anything which uses color management (gamut/gamma correction) on untagged images. Doing so could make an image look better or worse than it actually is.
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Well, upon further testing - WARNING : POT PLAYER SUCKS. It's doing something funky to the output. My display seems to be making it even funkier, but that's not something that can be seen on screenshots, so the crappiness you saw on my Hi10P screens is pot player-driven.
On an unrelated note, this thread turned me on to madVR, which, curiously enough, my laptop runs pretty well from, MPC-HC.... which has made 8-bit even prettier. I see even less need for 10-bit than ever.
The reason those gradients that cyberbeing look banded is because most of them aren't smooth gradients - ie. the colour changes in bands anyway. That's what they're meant to look like (a couple of them aren't - such as the RGB Spectrum and grey vertical gradient).
The gradients are not dithered, but they should appear smooth and even without any color cast. If you see any large or uneven banding, it's a limitation of the monitor (assuming it is in its default state without any color profile or calibration lut loaded in Windows). Large even 8-bit gradients which aren't dithered are very hard for monitors to render smooth without a built-in LUT. Large uneven 8-bit gradients will never appear perfectly smooth without dithering. Displays with extremely high brightness and contrast ratios, especially those which advertise massive contrast ratios like 100,000:1 using dynamic contrast, can make 8-bit banding more obvious since the luminance difference between 8-bit values would be greater.
By definition banding is often defined as pixel transitions greater than a single 8-bit pixel value, so none of those images would be considered to have banding, but they do have 8-bit steps. It's a good example of why 8-bit (256 values) is so poor at making gradients in general, and why dithering from 10-bit (1024 values) helps quality so much.
For reference, the linear gradients have a 7-8-7-8 pattern with one pixel transitions when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen, for example 5555555566666667777 77778888888
The horizontal and vertical gradients should appear even smoother with denser 2-2 pattern when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen, for example 55667788
The RGB spectrum image should appear the smoothest when viewed on a 1920x1080 screen since it's dithered.
For variation, here are a few more gradients.
Linear Gradient with 5-5 pattern (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2/szarosc.png)
Linear Gradient with 2-2 pattern (http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/186/gradientlr.png)
Alternative RGB Spectrum dithered (http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4269/g0000.png)
ACTUALLY... madVR looks better (with madVR 8bit best, slightly better than madVR 10bit... but EVR 8bit and 10bit tied for worst, with 10bit perhaps even worse???) ... and both the EVRs, for whatever reason, look just as banded as my own screenshot *on this screen, as connected to this computer*. Ok,what gives?!?!
The skirt shows the most noticeable banding differences. It seems clear that your monitor just has trouble rendering gradients, but something is funky with your setup as well since your 10-bit screenshots look worse than my 8-bit screenshots, and my 10-bit screenshots look better still. Could be an issue with how you are taking screenshots, could be Potplayer doing something weird, could be your GPU driver.
Another thing worth mentioning, is that nobody should be viewing comparison images in anything which uses color management (gamut/gamma correction) on untagged images. Doing so could make an image look better or worse than it actually is.
Pardon any ignorance I might spout here, but isn't not running colour management .icc's just the equivalent of running a default colour profile? Don't know about your computers' setups, but mine on default provided a TV-out image with bright pink white people and decidedly greenish black people - I blame Toshiba f-ing around with driver defaults to make Windows Aero on the laptop's own LCD (and nothing but windows aero!) look good in sales floor lighting...So there's really no way of not using a colour profile for me.
Also, while I see how incorrect color management could make a picture fuglier, how could it possibly add banding?!
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I usually try to avoid ever telling people to google things, as it's rather rude and jerkish. But in this case, there's a lot better easy to find information about calibration and banding then can probably be paraphrased here. If you literally dump some rather generic keywords in to google, the very first result does a pretty good job of explaining it.
Literally google for "calibration banding color profile" without the quotes.
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I would like to point out the fact that the overall pooled ratio on bakabt is (at the time of this post) 15 which , stop me if Im wrong here, means for every gig of download our overall upload is 15gigs
::ponders the seed pool question::
seems to me that our seed pool is fine for now and is in no danger of being spread too thin, I mean for gods sake I have about 2tb uploaded over my several years and Im not a hardcore user, the benefit of torrents is that they are fairly unobtrusive to your other computing needs
my suggestion in light of this is to let the transition happen in its own time, keep at least one sd 8bit encode around so that people with older or less compatible hardware can watch their anime
remember people, its hard to get indignant and elitist about a service that is running on the fringes of internet legality, if you can only get 2 seeds on a torrent... all you have to do is wait, your still getting entertainment for free
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Thought I'd drop in to ask whether my vote can be moved from option B to option C.
As things are going right now, will yes-option A win, even though the no-options (B,C,D) have a bigger total when combined?
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As things are going right now, will yes-option A win, even though the no-options (B,C,D) have a bigger total when combined?
I'd be very surprised if the staff just uses this vote right off the bat to decide what to do; it's one source of input and they'll use their own judgement in the end.
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For a variety of reasons I'll be sticking with 8-bit myself so if quality releases aren't available here I guess I could look around elsewhere.
Providing 10-bit only would likely narrow the potential audience and probably annoy people so if there's any desire to broaden anime's exposure and win over new fans (and keep old ones), there needs to be some more rational thought placed into the decision and less hubris. (And by hubris I would mean, e.g., "Caring about what people think too much will just bog us down." LOTS of that attitude going around in the community.) There are so many other things that people could do with their time than watch anime. Of course the diehards will be on board but the casual fan will just find something else to do and that's where the risk lies.
JMO.
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Add one vote to the "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE KEEP ALL 8-bit ENCODINGS" because my Western Digital Live media box does not, and will never (according to what I've read on their forums) support any 10-bit encodings.
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hmm, I am not so smart but 10 bit sounds better then 8 bit, it doesn't wory me, if i still can watch my Lovely anime...
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Good news for those considering media streamers: there's a good chance that the new Marvell ARM SoC chosen for the next Google TV platform might be able to play 10-bit encodes. Let's see what they will actually unveil at CES in Las Vegas in a few days...
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Good news for those considering media streamers: there's a good chance that the new Marvell ARM SoC chosen for the next Google TV platform might be able to play 10-bit encodes. Let's see what they will actually unveil at CES in Las Vegas in a few days...
1) Hardly important for all the people who already have their device.
2) I couldn't find detailed specs for the chip, but every place says it supports high profile and that's it (hardly surprising).
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Good news for those considering media streamers: there's a good chance that the new Marvell ARM SoC chosen for the next Google TV platform might be able to play 10-bit encodes. Let's see what they will actually unveil at CES in Las Vegas in a few days...
1) Hardly important for all the people who already have their device.
2) I couldn't find detailed specs for the chip, but every place says it supports high profile and that's it (hardly surprising).
1) Interesting for those that consider buying their first or a new one with new features, or those that want to make their TV 'smarter' (I have a 2 year old Samsung TV that doesn't have a browser, this new platform can run a full fledged one with Flash support. The Nixeus XS media streamer has the predecessor SoC of this new one and can play 720p Hi10 according to some Internet sources.
I didn't say that this one will be everyone's 'last' and 'one and only' player device for the rest of their lifes. :P
2) This news is very new ;) , at CES next week we will see various devices by various maufacturers.
Ah, and I never said that it can play any 1080p Hi10 file, I said 'it might be able to play 10-bit encodes', as in 'let's have an eye on this one. :)
EDIT: Forgot to say thanks for your great uploads, OnDeed. :laugh:
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I suspect that Nixeus thing is just a piece of ultimately false guerilla marketing. There is no proof or explicit statement, just youtube video of "betatesting". The SoC doesn't have the power to run it in software and it's very unlikely its decoding engine has support, so...
It's just an attempt at trick attention whoring in other words. I wish I was wrong, but...
Edit: Thinking about it, maybe they could pull 720p in software, but the bitrate would probably need to be limited... or maybe they were able to reuse the hardware path for cabac decoding (not sure that is even possible). Still unlikely to happen imho.
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I don't care if it's 10bit or 8 bit the only thing I care that the subs are good.
Good in my standard is that HorribleSubs are good enough for me.
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I don't care if it's 10bit or 8 bit the only thing I care that the subs are good.
Good in my standard is that HorribleSubs are good enough for me.
Then you really have no business on BakaBT, do you? This is an HQ archival site. If you're fine with HorribleSubs, why are you even here?
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so are we getting anywhere with this ?
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I don't care if it's 10bit or 8 bit the only thing I care that the subs are good.
Good in my standard is that HorribleSubs are good enough for me.
Then you really have no business on BakaBT, do you? This is an HQ archival site. If you're fine with HorribleSubs, why are you even here?
Most people have no business here, the fact this site is for -the best- release is been pushed aside, will be the -jack of all trades- tracker if trying to please everybody.
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I'm going to go through the arguments in favour of moving to 10-bit...
(Disclosure, I can watch Hi10P just fine. But it annoys me that I can not stream this to the set-top box because my transcoding server doesn't support it yet.)
Hi10P is of course a higher quality format, and since Bakabt is a high quality archive it should be used instead of Main Profile
Hi10P only offers higher perceptual quality than Main Profile is capable of if you have a 10-Bit display. 10-Bit displays are pretty rare. Any difference seen between a Main Profile and a Hi10P encode, are due to reducing the possible quality of the Main Profile encode to gain a smaller bit-rate or reduce encode time. It is entirely possible to produce an encode in Main Profile that will look identical to a Hi10P on an 8-Bit display.
Further, the sources for these encodes are all Main Profile/High Profile 8-Bit. It is impossible for re-encoding to improve quality.
Hi10P does offer a slight increase in quality per bitrate, but not by a whole lot. As you can see by looking at the size differences of files encoded to the same perceptual quality levels. The main benefit is not needing to dither as much to prevent banding, which is only a big saving if nearly every frame has lots of dithering to increase entropy. And that isn't so in Animation.
While you can make an argument that Hi10P is better for size reduction while retaining quality... This contradicts the argument that BakaBT is primarily concerned with Quality, not file sizes.
So this argument is moot. Hi10P is not inherently better quality than Main Profile.
BakaBT has never catered to difference in hardware decoding capabilities
If this were true, there wouldn't be multiple versions of content at all. Everything would be 1080P and FLAC.
BakaBT should only cater to Desktop computers anyway. The capabilities of HTPCs and Set Top Boxes do not matter. Those are irrelevant to the Fansub community.e
A lot of people do in fact use, as their primary media watching systems, set top boxes and HTPCs. Some even use Macs, which would require a Windows boot drive to watch Hi10P at the moment. This includes people who have been watching Fansubs longer than this site existed in it's first incarnation, and it is a little arrogant to redefine who the Fansub community is.
Maybe, in a few years or so, when HTPC have hardware decoders that can do Hi10P, or it's trivial to have a home server do transcoding to one... Then we should start talking about moving to Hi10P. Right now it's premature, and people seem to be jumping onto it because its New And Shiny, when all it really does is reduce file sizes a bit and remove the need for a dithering filter when encoding. That's not worth the current downsides.
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so are we getting anywhere with this ?
No, not really.
LOT'S OF WORDS ABOUT STUFF THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED 3 TIMES BY ME ALONE, 4 MORE TIMES BY OTHERS.
1. Hi10P only offers higher perceptual quality than Main Profile is capable of if you have a 10-Bit display.
Wrong. It's not perceptual, it's proven. 10bit encoding will introduce far less banding. It's fact. If you can't accept that it's pointless to argue with you.
2.10-Bit displays are pretty rare.
Correct.
3.Any difference seen between a Main Profile and a Hi10P encode, are due to reducing the possible quality of the Main Profile encode to gain a smaller bit-rate or reduce encode time. It is entirely possible to produce an encode in Main Profile that will look identical to a Hi10P on an 8-Bit display.
Wrong. 8bit will introduce more banding. The display capabilities of the monitor are irrelevant, considering that most monitors aren't even true 8bit 10bit encoding does not reduce encoding time.
4.Further, the sources for these encodes are all Main Profile/High Profile 8-Bit. It is impossible for re-encoding to improve quality.
Correct. But the purpose of 10bit encoding is not to improve quality. It is to keep it from being degraded by the encoding process. 8bit encoding will degrade more then 10bit encoding.
5. Hi10P does offer a slight increase in quality per bitrate, but not by a whole lot.
Wrong. 15%-20% is not slight.
6. The main benefit is not needing to dither as much to prevent banding, which is only a big saving if nearly every frame has lots of dithering to increase entropy. And that isn't so in Animation.
Partially correct. But as you can see by many screenshots posted here, there is a visible difference between 8bit and 10bit encoding.
7. While you can make an argument that Hi10P is better for size reduction while retaining quality... This contradicts the argument that BakaBT is primarily concerned with Quality, not file sizes.
Correct.
8.So this argument is moot. Hi10P is not inherently better quality than Main Profile.
Wrong. If 10bit offers smaller file size at same quality, or same file size at higher quality, and almost always less banding, how is it not higher quality overall?
9.If this were true, there wouldn't be multiple versions of content at all. Everything would be 1080P and FLAC.
Correct, but BakaBt has never cared about standalone hardware playing.
10. A lot of people do in fact use, as their primary media watching systems, set top boxes and HTPCs. Some even use Macs, which would require a Windows boot drive to watch Hi10P at the moment. This includes people who have been watching Fansubs longer than this site existed in it's first incarnation, and it is a little arrogant to redefine who the Fansub community is.
Correct, but isn't it also a little arrogant to decide how people should encode, or what people should include on their tracker?
11. Maybe, in a few years or so, when HTPC have hardware decoders that can do Hi10P, or it's trivial to have a home server do transcoding to one...
BakaBT has NEVER catered to anything other then the PC. If it had, you'd be seeing PSP/DS, etc. encodes here.
12. Right now it's premature, and people seem to be jumping onto it because its New And Shiny, when all it really does is reduce file sizes a bit and remove the need for a dithering filter when encoding. That's not worth the current downsides.
Subjective. It's not worth it to YOU. It's worth it to many downloaders and most encoders.
This whole argument is pointless anyway. I can count the major fansubbing groups still releasing in 8bit on me hand. Doki, KiteSeekers (for Tantei Opera Milky Holmes II, to be the same as season 1).... someone can say more, I can't think of any other. So, you're going to have to accept 10bit eventually anyway, or spend all your time transcoding to 8bit. Those transcodes, by the way, will almost never be accepted here on BakaBT. You'd have to encode yourself to do that.
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Er... See that bit where I say "10-Bit Display"... Now, how does an 8-Bit display result in reduced banding from showing 10-Bit? Because the display dithers the output. Can you do that with Main Profile too? Yes, you just put the dithering in at the encoding. So is 10-Bit more capable than 8-Bit on an 8-Bit display? No.
What the heck are you talking about? It does not matter what kind of monitor you're watching it on. The banding is in the video stream itself. You're going to see it regardless of the monitor. And are you blind? Read above and on the last page to see screenshots of the same encode settings. One uses 10bit, the other 8bit. Everyone here can see the difference, and I don't think anyone has a 10bit monitor.
Just look:
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/565/evrcp8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/51/evrcp10bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ madVR (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6842/madvr8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ madVR (http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4791/madvr10bit.png)
madVR will have less banding compared to EVR-CP, but there is still a noticeable difference between 8bit and 10-bit either way.
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so are we getting anywhere with this ?
No, not really.
LOT'S OF WORDS ABOUT STUFF THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED 3 TIMES BY ME ALONE, 4 MORE TIMES BY OTHERS.
1. Hi10P only offers higher perceptual quality than Main Profile is capable of if you have a 10-Bit display.
Wrong. It's not perceptual, it's proven. 10bit encoding will introduce far less banding. It's fact. If you can't accept that it's pointless to argue with you.
Wrong. 8bit will introduce more banding. The display capabilities of the monitor are irrelevant, considering that most monitors aren't even true 8bit 10bit encoding does not reduce encoding time.
Banding can be corrected for by a dithering filter during the encode. Your watching a 10-Bit image on a 8-Bit display means you're getting a dithering filter for free. As I was saying, 10-Bit offers nothing over what 8-Bit is capable of for an 8-Bit Display. And as I pointed out, the sources for these are Main Profile... How on earth can going from an 8-Bit image to a 10-Bit add any more information about the colour gradient to reduce banding? It can't, it's just more dithering.
4.Further, the sources for these encodes are all Main Profile/High Profile 8-Bit. It is impossible for re-encoding to improve quality.
Correct. But the purpose of 10bit encoding is not to improve quality. It is to keep it from being degraded by the encoding process. 8bit encoding will degrade more then 10bit encoding.
Again, it *can't* affect the degradation of a re-encode, because the 8-bit colour gradients don't have that extra information that 10-bit has. In fact, strictly speaking the conversion over to 10bit adds in extra entropy not maintain it, but it's a good enough guess at the gradient that it doesn't matter much.
5. Hi10P does offer a slight increase in quality per bitrate, but not by a whole lot.
Wrong. 15%-20% is not slight.
In a time when high speed internet and multi-tb disks are much more prevalent in homes than Quad Core SandyBridge computers...
10. A lot of people do in fact use, as their primary media watching systems, set top boxes and HTPCs. Some even use Macs, which would require a Windows boot drive to watch Hi10P at the moment. This includes people who have been watching Fansubs longer than this site existed in it's first incarnation, and it is a little arrogant to redefine who the Fansub community is.
Correct, but isn't it also a little arrogant to decide how people should encode, or what people should include on their tracker?
If you wish to cater only to the Elite so be it.
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Just look:
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/565/evrcp8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ EVR-CP (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/51/evrcp10bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 8bit (359.3 MB) w/ madVR (http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6842/madvr8bit.png)
EveTaku Ben-To 01v2 10bit (304.1 MB) w/ madVR (http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/4791/madvr10bit.png)
madVR will have less banding compared to EVR-CP, but there is still a noticeable difference between 8bit and 10-bit either way.
I see the results of banding artefacts in both. In the 10-bit, they have been smoothed somewhat due to the dithering effect of going between two colour ramp schemes, but are still there and quite visible.
I see nothing there that a post-processor filter wouldn't be able to do, and in both cases the encoder would have been better to run a dither filter on it to prevent the artefacts in the first place.
This seems to be evidence for "Makes it easier for a encoder to claim they have fixed banding problems", rather than actual improvement in quality.
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I see nothing there that a post-processor filter wouldn't be able to do, and in both cases the encoder would have been better to run a dither filter on it to prevent the artefacts in the first place.
This seems to be evidence for "Makes it easier for a encoder to claim they have fixed banding problems", rather than actual improvement in quality.
Like I said, this has been discussed already. Nobody wants to run realtime post-porcessing. At least read the other pages before making a fool out of yourself. I'm done trying to explain anything to you. You already "know" the trsuth and as such, you won't listen anyway. It doesn't even matter what you think, the majority as already spoken, encoding wise.
PS: Yes, running a dither filter while encoding would NOT have damaged the details in the anime at all. That's why everyone uses as many filters as they possibly can while encoding........ wait, they don't.
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PS: Yes, running a dither filter while encoding would NOT have damaged the details in the anime at all. That's why everyone uses as many filters as they possibly can while encoding........ wait, they don't.
Wait, so instead of the controllable extra entropy of a dithering filter... You want to add in banding smoothing by doing a colour ramp transform of 8Bit -> 10Bit -> 8Bit, and hope the display end does the right thing? And you don't care that it breaks hardware support?
You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
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Wait, so instead of the controllable extra entropy of a dithering filter... You want to add in banding smoothing by doing a colour ramp transform of 8Bit -> 10Bit -> 8Bit, and hope the display end does the right thing?
No, I don't have to hope. It just does it.
And you don't care that it breaks hardware support?
No, I do not care that it breaks hardware support.
You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DISPLAY YOU ARE WATCHING IT ON. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you realize your monitor is probably not even actually 8bit? What are you going to do, demand 6bit encodes?
That's it, I'm out. Find someone else to annoy.
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Plus, I also want to contrast this to the switch over to H.264...
Remember BakaBT did not do this till 2009. By then slim-client hardware support for H.264 was already around. People had PS3s, and the WD TV Live was released.
Now people are pushing for a switch to Hi10p. There is no slim-client hardware support. No one has even announced any coming. No one is particularly interested in it, since the standard High Profile is working and they won't really want to till 10Bit displays roll in as the new big thing. Not only that, but software support has only just got off the ground, and is still going to take a while to get into every popular media player...
These two switch-over events are very different. And the Hi10p one is premature by a long shot.
You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DISPLAY YOU ARE WATCHING IT ON. Why is that so hard to understand? Do you realize your monitor is probably not even actually 8bit? What are you going to do, demand 6bit encodes?
That's it, I'm out. Find someone else to annoy.
Oh for the love of... Look, it does matter, because you are trying to claim that 10bit encodes are less destructive to detail than 8bit and a dither filter.
But to get from an 8bit source to a 10bit encode it goes through a colour ramp conversion that probably dithers anyway, and then unless you are watching on a 10bit clean path to a 10bit display, it will have had a another colour ramp conversion that dithers it again. So you've introduced two detail reducing dithering steps, to avoid one.
And not that it's relevant to the argument, the monitor I'm currently using is not 6bit, it's 8. As is my TV.
Duki3003 edit:Don't double post
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You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
This a thousand times.
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You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
This a thousand times.
Indeed, until there is a clean 10bit path from Source to Encode to Display, those claiming that Hi10P encodes are better than 8bit are comparing the products of different smoothing/dithering filters and deciding that they like one better.
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Since this points keeps returning... 10bit h.264 is supposed to offer compression benefit precisely *with 8bit source*. With real 10bit source, there actually is *no* compression benefit relatively to 8bit encode from 8-bit source. Why is that?
The compression gain comes from working in a bitdepth that is higher than the source (note that h.265 is going to use this technique). Using 10bits for 8bit source (4x enhancement of precision) gives the encoder more breathing space. Note that a quantization error in least significant bit in 8bit corresponds to much higher quantization error in 10bit: 3 least significant bits (in both cases, the 7 m.s.b. are unaffected). That means that when compressing, 10bit encoder doesn't need to be so careful with quantization and can be more aggressive. Generally, this is reducing rounding errors in the various steps of compressions, and because rounding error will often force the encoder to correct it by residual data (spending bits), this can improve compression. Similarly the extra precision helps inter and intra prediction, which again means less residual data need to be written.
(This is speaking about non-banded sources though, with banded ones obviously you should get better quality from debanding filtering, too).
I reiterate, these benefits happen when the bitdepth of the encoding is higher than that of the source (and the bitdepth of the displaying device is not important for this). If your source was real 10bit, you wouldn't have any of that extra breathing space I described, and the encoder would had as hard a work as normally.
P.S. OTOH, those compression gains aren't dramatic, it's no 30% some people fabulate about :) For encodes that weren't limited by costs of keeping debanding in place, the benefit is small. Nowhere comparable to the older xvid versus h.264 situation at all.
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You do understand that the 10Bit output to an 8Bit display actually is a real-time post-processing dither filter, and will be just as destructive to detail as a filter at encode time?
Yes it is processing, but the effect is not quite the same. Dithering isn't compression friendly (ordered dither isn't so bad, but the higher-quality error diffusion is about as 'compressible' as noise), which means 1) it hurts compression 2) it gets distorted or partially/completely wiped away by the compression.
When you do it at display time, these factors don't come into play because no further compression takes place - you can safely use error diffusion and it won't get obliterated or harm anything.
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Wow, there sure is a lot of clueless people here. Here's a few fun fact:
1.) Dither!=deband. Dithering is a process used to downsample a high bit-depth video into a lower bit-depth output. What does this mean? Simple "dithering" on an 8-bit source back to 8-bit won't do anything. Also, you don't dither at all when going to a higher bit-depth, you dither when going to a lower bit-depth. Another is that dithering process won't actually lose much visible detail if you only went to 8-bit, which is a relatively high bit-depth. Deband, on the other hand, is a process to make the gradients smooth by smoothing the gradients first. This smoothing will most likely give a lot of floating point values, for which the floating point values are then dithered down to the final bit-depth. This gradient smoothing is what loses detail, not the dithering (well dithering from a higher bit-depth to lower bit-depth will still lose detail, but definitely not by much compared to the actual gradient smoothing).
2.) When someone mentions that 8-bit degrades more than 10-bit, please remember that when encoding, you'll end up changing a lot of pixels values. This pixel values, again, might end up as floating point. Encoding to standard 8-bit will have these floating point values rounded, which introduces banding (note that I said introduces, meaning the encoded result will have more banding that what you feed the encoder). Encoding to 10-bit, you will still round down, but the rounding down is to 10-bit, which have 4x more possible color values than 8-bitm, meaning that the gradients are smoother than 8-bit. During playback, this 10-bit clip with the already smoother gradients is dithered down to 8-bit. See difference: Using 8-bit, you round down. Using 10-bit, you dither. That's the biggest difference. To make things simpler:
8-bit : 8-bit clip -> lots of pixel values changed, with a lot of them possibly changed to floating point values -> fp rounded down to 8-bit, introduces banding -> played back as is, with the banding and all.
10-bit: 8-bit clip -> lots of pixel values changed, with a lot of them possibly changed to floating point values -> fp rounded down to 10-bit, will still introduce banding because of rounding but still much smoother than 8-bit -> dithered down to final bit-depth during playback, which gives the illusion of higher bit-depth and preserves the smooth gradients.
It's a pretty simplified explanation, but should be sufficient.
tl;dr It's all about the internal precision of the encoding process, not about the display bit-depth or whatever.
3.) These "dither post-processing" (I think you meant deband filter, but whatever) before encoding, will remove banding in the source, but it doesn't mean that the rounding in 8-bit doesn't happen. Any encoder would have known what a major PITA it is to deband a source only to have the banding back again in the final encoded result. 10-bit helps in preventing that.
In fact, I already could care less about how BakaBT decides to treat 10-bit and 8-bit encodes, but with lost of people still having misconceptions (and forcing that misconceptions on others), I feel the need to clarify a few more things here.
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I have been a user for over 2 years now and this is my first post, how lazy is that !!!
Well I think before we up the ante, we should keep in mind that most users with desktops may have been using old machines, machines that are about 5-6 years old, like mine (made in tokyo cause I bought it in nagoya) is a P4 2.8G Intel but I beefed up the ram to 4GB, still running XP Pro. I am not that tech savy with it comes to encoding but 1080p Mkv get stucks on my screen, but then a high quality anime is not something you watch on your PC man, you should watch it on BIG screen :) I bought a Sony HX920 60" just for that purpose (and the 3D movies ofcourse) and movies looks great on it.
So if we are move with the trend in that mind that machines now a days are powerful and people will have to upgrade (but cannot afford for some reasons) but most of us will have a good TV I am sure, get something like WD TV Live box and watch it on TV. I am happy with whatever. Cheers.
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If you (generally speaking) can get the money to buy a 60' tv, surely you can spend less than $500 towards upgrading your PC.
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i just got http://bakabt.me/163595-zero-no-tsukaima-familiar-of-zero-10bit-720p-joseole99.html (http://bakabt.me/163595-zero-no-tsukaima-familiar-of-zero-10bit-720p-joseole99.html) and my WD TV Live plus will not play any of the files but i can play them on my computer using the most current CCCP with no problems. I will be getting only 8 bit encodes so that I can watch them on my TV.
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Imo. Get rid of 8-bit Full HD if a 10-bit version is available. You can play both if you have at least a dual-core cpu system and by using CoreAVC codec. For people who still have dual-core systems and wants to watch in 10bit, stick with CoreAVC...some may argue that CoreAVC sucks but I had tried ffdshow and played some episodes on the same system but I didn't see the difference in quality (maybe a slight in some scenes but that's only a little). Keep an 8bit 720p version coz you can still play this on a single core cpu at least an Athlon XP 1800, again by using CoreAVC.
It's time to get the numbers, I think we should have a poll about what hardware do we have? So we can figure out who is the minority. Sorry, I had bad experience with hardware, my belief is it has only a lifespan of 5 years (especially when runing 24/7). I can't believe these people running their 800MHz CPU on 24/7 for almost a decade just to download (and archieve) anime!
Archiving SD quality titles? really? That was already done by most streaming sites.
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So if we are move with the trend in that mind that machines now a days are powerful and people will have to upgrade (but cannot afford for some reasons) but most of us will have a good TV I am sure, get something like WD TV Live box and watch it on TV. I am happy with whatever. Cheers.
That's exactly the point. Current STB media decoders only go up to High Profile, they do not support Hi10p, and there are no signs anyone is interested in making STB media decoders that do. A WD TV Live will not play Hi10P content properly.
Imo. Get rid of 8-bit Full HD if a 10-bit version is available. You can play both if you have at least a dual-core cpu system and by using CoreAVC codec. For people who still have dual-core systems and wants to watch in 10bit, stick with CoreAVC...some may argue that CoreAVC sucks but I had tried ffdshow and played some episodes on the same system but I didn't see the difference in quality (maybe a slight in some scenes but that's only a little). Keep an 8bit 720p version coz you can still play this on a single core cpu at least an Athlon XP 1800, again by using CoreAVC.
It's time to get the numbers, I think we should have a poll about what hardware do we have? So we can figure out who is the minority. Sorry, I had bad experience with hardware, my belief is it has only a lifespan of 5 years (especially when runing 24/7). I can't believe these people running their 800MHz CPU on 24/7 for almost a decade just to download (and archieve) anime!
Archiving SD quality titles? really? That was already done by most streaming sites.
As far as I know, the only way to play back hi10p content correctly on a Mac, even a 12 core mac pro, is to have to install a windows partition on it. I think Linux support is also somewhat lagging.
"You can play back hi10p content if you install the right codec pack and use the right player on certain kinds of desktops running windows" does not suggest widespread support for this format yet.
And again... We're nowhere near the hardware-assisted decode state that we were in when the switch over to H.264 happened. There are *no* consumer market hardware decodes for hi10p. When you can buy a STB that does hi10p decoding, as you could buy a STB that did High Profile H.264 decoding when we switched over to h.264, it will be equivalent.
Duki3003 edit: You can insert multiple quotes and answer in one message, don't double post!
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As far as I know, the only way to play back hi10p content correctly on a Mac, even a 12 core mac pro, is to have to install a windows partition on it. I think Linux support is also somewhat lagging.
equivalent.
It's already mentioned many times here and in other places, but you can use mplayer/mplayer2 to play 10-bit content on Mac/Linux (and on Windows, too).
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As far as I know, the only way to play back hi10p content correctly on a Mac, even a 12 core mac pro, is to have to install a windows partition on it. I think Linux support is also somewhat lagging.
equivalent.
It's already mentioned many times here and in other places, but you can use mplayer/mplayer2 to play 10-bit content on Mac/Linux (and on Windows, too).
This is all good and fine for those that do not use Stand alone Hardware Players like the WD TV Live Plus. I have one of these devices myself and if i try to play a 10bit encoded video it reports that the file is unsupported and to please see the instruction book for supported file formats. So for those that have this type of device the 8bit encodes are needed. I will continue to seed the one and only 10bit encode that i got to verify if the device would play it or not but in the future i will be only getting 8bit encoded series and i even posed to the one hoping that there was an 8bit version coming.
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This is all good and fine for those that do not use Stand alone Hardware Players like the WD TV Live Plus. I have one of these devices myself and if i try to play a 10bit encoded video it reports that the file is unsupported and to please see the instruction book for supported file formats. So for those that have this type of device the 8bit encodes are needed. I will continue to seed the one and only 10bit encode that i got to verify if the device would play it or not but in the future i will be only getting 8bit encoded series and i even posed to the one hoping that there was an 8bit version coming.
Congratulations for saying something that has already been said 12 times before. You also the the "I didn't read what was already posted on this thread" award.
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i will be only getting 8bit encoded series and i even posed to the one hoping that there was an 8bit version coming.
This is something that I've been wanting to ask the set-top box people: What if there is no 8-bit version available at all?
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This is all good and fine for those that do not use Stand alone Hardware Players like the WD TV Live Plus. I have one of these devices myself and if i try to play a 10bit encoded video it reports that the file is unsupported and to please see the instruction book for supported file formats. So for those that have this type of device the 8bit encodes are needed. I will continue to seed the one and only 10bit encode that i got to verify if the device would play it or not but in the future i will be only getting 8bit encoded series and i even posed to the one hoping that there was an 8bit version coming.
Congratulations for saying something that has already been said 12 times before. You also the the "I didn't read what was already posted on this thread" award.
I'm not the only one deserving of this Award as there are others that keep talking about doing Hardware upgrades to computers and keep forgetting that there are those like me that use stand alone devices so i just keep reminding them that there are more than just computers that are being used to watch anime. ;D
i will be only getting 8bit encoded series and i even posed to the one hoping that there was an 8bit version coming.
This is something that I've been wanting to ask the set-top box people: What if there is no 8-bit version available at all?
I do not know about the rest but as for me i would not get the higher quality offerings even if it is a series that i all ready have.
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I do not know about the rest but as for me i would not get the higher quality offerings even if it is a series that i all ready have.
That's not what I was asking. What if there is no 8-bit version of a new show that you haven't already seen or already have? What will you do then?
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I do not know about the rest but as for me i would not get the higher quality offerings even if it is a series that i all ready have.
That's not what I was asking. What if there is no 8-bit version of a new show that you haven't already seen or already have? What will you do then?
Well it looks like your the next person in line for the 'award' i was just given. because it looks like you did not read and understand what I said which is 'I would not get'.
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Well it looks like your the next person in line for the 'award' i was just given. because it looks like you did not read and understand what I said which is 'I would not get'.
Looks like you'll be missing out on a bunch of new anime in 2012 then.
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Well it looks like your the next person in line for the 'award' i was just given. because it looks like you did not read and understand what I said which is 'I would not get'.
Looks like you'll be missing out on a bunch of new anime in 2012 then.
He can just go to a streaming site! :>
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This is something that I've been wanting to ask the set-top box people: What if there is no 8-bit version available at all?
Not a set-top box person, here, but my computer is built for cool and quiet operation, which unfortunately precludes minor upgrades and my budget precludes major. That means: I've got a "special" computer case, which isn't compatible with modern motherboards, which means I'd have to get a more modern "special" case, which would be expensive.
Anyway, I would do what I did with Gedo Senki recently. There was only lowres and 10-bit 1080p, so I downloaded the 10-bit version and re-encoded it to 720p 8-bit using a new version of mplayer/mencoder I had to download, download several prerequisites for, and compile. The mplayer/mencoder in my Ubuntu version doesn't support Hi10P, even though I hear from others here that Linux support should be up and running. The whole process took a while, but then all was well and I could remove the 10-bit and quit seeding.
And there's the rub - I would not be contributing to the seeding pool, since I would re-encode to a sufficient quality for my needs that my computer can handle, then remove the file I couldn't use. Wouldn't I be just as useful to the community, if not more, if I could just download an 8-bit version and then keep seeding?
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He can just go to a streaming site! :>
That's certainly a viable option. If there are set-top box people and people who use older computers that are willing to settle for the lower quality, then yes. The good thing about CR, for example, is that the quality of the subs is usually pretty good so it's not a total loss.
And there's the rub - I would not be contributing to the seeding pool, since I would re-encode to a sufficient quality for my needs that my computer can handle, then remove the file I couldn't use. Wouldn't I be just as useful to the community, if not more, if I could just download an 8-bit version and then keep seeding?
Yes most definitely. But a fansub group would have to release an 8-bit version for you and the community to do that. Given the fact that an increasing number groups are releasing in 10-bit it looks like there will be less 8-bit versions of shows and movies in 2012. So even if BBT were to implement this new policy of treating 8-bit and 10-bit equally, there will be less 8-bit versions to do comparisons with.
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Yes most definitely. But a fansub group would have to release an 8-bit version for you and the community to do that. Given the fact that an increasing number groups are releasing in 10-bit it looks like there will be less 8-bit versions of shows and movies in 2012. So even if BBT were to implement this new policy of treating 8-bit and 10-bit equally, there will be less 8-bit versions to do comparisons with.
Well, I did offer to upload my re-encode, but it seems a re-encode was unacceptable no matter its quality, and I was told to download the original BR (25+GB, or thereabouts?) and encode the video from it. Which I honestly couldn't be bothered to do, since I didn't even like the movie once I saw it.
But the point of this particular discussion is, if there DOES exist an 8-bit encode (I'll accept that this will be the case in fewer and fewer cases), why not present it alongside the Hi10P one for me and my ilk? It would hardly bother "the rest of you", since you would simply not have my rather single-sided leeching, as I would stop the torrent once the download was complete. And (as I believe my ratio can vouch for) I would do my part of seeding any 8-bit encodes I downloaded.
As this thread has amply demonstrated, I am not alone.
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Streaming sites usually offer VERY bad quality, only exception seems to be youtube (low-bitrate 1080p) and well.. thats out of the question.
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But the point of this particular discussion is, if there DOES exist an 8-bit encode (I'll accept that this will be the case in fewer and fewer cases), why not present it alongside the Hi10P one for me and my ilk?
Personally, I don't mind keeping the 8-bit versions alongside the 10-bit versions. I can play both and in the end, more people get to seed and watch anime and everybody is happy. But that is assuming that there will be an adequate number of 8-bit versions of the new anime coming out this year of course.
I personally feel that it's very important that people who can't or don't want to play 10-bit should really think about the likelihood that quite a few shows and movies released by fansub groups in 2012 will be in 10-bit only. I was just trying to make people aware that even though the staff might agree to treat 8-bit and 10-bit equally or keep the current system where both are accepted, there might not even be an 8-bit version at all. If that is the case, then the 8-bit people will have to use alternate methods to watch the new anime.
The problem is that those alternate methods might not be ideal for every user.
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I personally feel that it's very important that people who can't or don't want to play 10-bit should really think about the likelihood that quite a few shows and movies released by fansub groups in 2012 will be in 10-bit only. I was just trying to make people aware that even though the staff might agree to treat 8-bit and 10-bit equally or keep the current system where both are accepted, there might not even be an 8-bit version at all. If that is the case, then the 8-bit people will have to use alternate methods to watch the new anime.
Bakabt could use it's weight to suggest that these groups should indeed still put out 8-bit encodes, because it would maintain a wider community for distribution. Or Bakabt could accept transcodes to seed for compatibility where there is no 8-bit release. "Some groups are going Hi10P only" is not a reason for Bakabt to wash their hands of trying to support those who can only watch 8-bit, and who despite the claims made repeatedly, can not all dip into their wallets to buy new "cheap" hardware upgrades. (How do you upgrade a Nvidia-Ion for Hi10P support? Buy a whole new computer...)
This whole thing goes entirely against the spirit of Fansubbing since the VHS swapping days. The bar to entry for getting fansub distribution was always kept as low as possible, because it was about being an anime fan not collecting video hardware. No one expected people to *have* to get both kinds of laserdisc players to watch anime.
Now, people are pushing that "Real" anime fans have to have the right hardware. And if you can't afford it, then 'the scene' doesn't want to know. Can't afford that 'cheap' new motherboard and sandybridge processor, too bad you're excluded. Invested in the 'wrong' kind of setup to have a silent entertainment system, then too bad you're excluded. Sure, you might have even spent a fairly large amount of money setting up a big screen TV, set top boxes, and silent HTPC, that can play motion intensive 3D BluRay without skipping... But you didn't know that some "But we can save file space!" encoders would break hardware decoding, and now you're excluded from the "fansub scene".
This sucks. It's turning the community into a group of eliteish pricks, who as seen above shout and whine and call people names if they don't immediately agree to the "latest new thing".
I'm going to say it, if you're a fansub group who have decided to go hi10p only, you suck. You've forgotten that Fansub distribution is about getting anime we can't otherwise watch distributed to all the kinds of fans who watch it. It is not about pushing the technological envelope, particularly when doing so excludes a load of fans.
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Bakabt could use it's weight to suggest that these groups should indeed still put out 8-bit encodes, because it would maintain a wider community for distribution.
BakaBT has no right to tell fansubbers to do anything, and nobody else does for that matter. You forget that only is few cases do the fansubbers upload to BakaBT themselves. Most groups upload their own batch. As such, they wouldn't care about what BakaBT says about the metter anyway.
Or Bakabt could accept transcodes to seed for compatibility where there is no 8-bit release.
That would go against the Higher Quality Available criteria that BakaBT has.
"Some groups are going Hi10P only" is not a reason for Bakabt to wash their hands of trying to support those who can only watch 8-bit, and who despite the claims made repeatedly, can not all dip into their wallets to buy new "cheap" hardware upgrades. (How do you upgrade a Nvidia-Ion for Hi10P support? Buy a whole new computer...)
BakaBT was NEVER in that business to begin with. Most 720p break compatibility anyway since they are higher then Lv.4.1 or too many reference frames, ect. That "new cheap hardware upgrades" are from the LAST 5 YEARS, if you have brains enough to set up your PC correctly.
This whole thing goes entirely against the spirit of Fansubbing since the VHS swapping days.
Welcome to 2012. It's a brand new age. Try to get used to it.
The bar to entry for getting fansub distribution was always kept as low as possible, because it was about being an
anime fan not collecting video hardware. No one expected people to *have* to get both kinds of laserdisc players to watch anime.
Wrong. That was the best that could be done at that time. You think fansubbers back then wanted to create such bad looking releases? They had no other choice. We're in 2012 now.
Now, people are pushing that "Real" anime fans have to have the right hardware.
The right kind of hardware is a decent PC from the last 5 years or so, and I'm being generous.
And if you can't afford it, then 'the scene' doesn't want to know. Can't afford that 'cheap' new motherboard and sandybridge processor, too bad you're excluded. Invested in the 'wrong' kind of setup to have a silent entertainment system, then too bad you're excluded.
Why SHOULD the scene care? Did someone put a gun to your head and make you buy that "silent entertainment system"? No, it was your choice. Face the consequences. Hardware players are obsolete very quickly.
Sure, you might have even spent a fairly large amount of money setting up a big screen TV, set top boxes, and silent HTPC, that can play motion intensive 3D BluRay without skipping... But you didn't know that some "But we can save file space!" encoders would break hardware decoding, and now you're excluded from the "fansub scene".
Fansubbers have been breaking hardware support even before weighted p-frames. And for the 100000st time, 10bit is for preserving quality, not saving space.
This sucks. It's turning the community into a group of eliteish pricks, who as seen above shout and whine and call people names if they don't immediately agree to the "latest new thing".
Where have you been the past 3 years? The fansubbing community has been a group of elitist pricks for a long time now. I'm not even joking about this.
I'm going to say it, if you're a fansub group who have decided to go hi10p only, you suck.
Yes, you bastards. It doesn't matter that you take the time to encode, translate, time and typeset everything for free for us. You don't do it they way I want to, so you suck. Oh sorry about that, I had my Entitlement Hat on. That think makes me think I'm entitled to have whatever I want however I want it, even though I don't have any right to demand it. Good think there's not too many of these hats around.... or are there?
You've forgotten that Fansub distribution is about getting anime we can't otherwise watch distributed to all the kinds of fans who watch it.
That ship has sailed long ago my friend. True, maybe 10% of groups still believe that. Most either do it for the e-penis, to piss off the R1 companies, or, like me, because I want my releases in a certain way, and if nobody is releasing it the way I want it, I'm going to make my own. Hint, hint? Nudge-nudge?
It is not about pushing the technological envelope, particularly when doing so excludes a load of fans.
If it were up to you, we'd still be watching DIV3 .avi with 128kbps .mp3, or worse, .rm.
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Yes most definitely. But a fansub group would have to release an 8-bit version for you and the community to do that. Given the fact that an increasing number groups are releasing in 10-bit it looks like there will be less 8-bit versions of shows and movies in 2012. So even if BBT were to implement this new policy of treating 8-bit and 10-bit equally, there will be less 8-bit versions to do comparisons with.
[...]
But the point of this particular discussion is, if there DOES exist an 8-bit encode (I'll accept that this will be the case in fewer and fewer cases), why not present it alongside the Hi10P one for me and my ilk? It would hardly bother "the rest of you", since you would simply not have my rather single-sided leeching, as I would stop the torrent once the download was complete. And (as I believe my ratio can vouch for) I would do my part of seeding any 8-bit encodes I downloaded.
As this thread has amply demonstrated, I am not alone.
Exactly. What fansub groups might possibly do is irrelevant here. Fansub groups can release whatever they want, but the question is what bakabt's policy is going to be like, i.e. whether to keep fallback options if there is the 8bit version (I expect there will be more often than not).
Bakabt could use it's weight to suggest that these groups should indeed still put out 8-bit encodes, because it would maintain a wider community for distribution.
BakaBT has no right to tell fansubbers to do anything, and nobody else does for that matter. You forget that only is few cases do the fansubbers upload to BakaBT themselves. Most groups upload their own batch. As such, they wouldn't care about what BakaBT says about the metter anyway.
In the same vein, fansub groups don't have any say in what will be disallowed here. (Except from their members that are also in charge here, but that's a detail).
BakaBT was NEVER in that business to begin with. Most 720p break compatibility anyway since they are higher then Lv.4.1 or too many reference frames, ect. That "new cheap hardware upgrades" are from the LAST 5 YEARS, if you have brains enough to set up your PC correctly.
Not true. Majority of dxva engines (Nvidia, Intel (sic!), some ATi iirc) support 16 reference frames for 1920x1080 stream. Better ones of those consumer boxes do so too (and interestingly... it seems to me that generally it's precisely those better ones that people claim to be using, in this thread.) So there. This thing was pointed out already in this thread too, I believe.
Welcome to 2012. It's a brand new age. Try to get used to it.
Yes, you bastards. It doesn't matter that you take the time to encode, translate, time and typeset everything for free for us. You don't do it they way I want to, so you suck. Oh sorry about that, I had my Entitlement Hat on. That think makes me think I'm entitled to have whatever I want however I want it, even though I don't have any right to demand it. Good think there's not too many of these hats around.... or are there?
Well, not that I'm really in position to comment and it probably doesn't matter in this case, but in principle, criticism is good, because that's how mistakes get pointed out and stuff gets improved. Subbers thinking "I know best" will often end up doing retarded things. If nobody will say that the emperor is naked, he'll keep flinging his ugly stuff at the public...
DIV3 .avi with 128kbps .mp3, or worse, .rm
Don't compare h.264, a perfectly good format with state of the art tools with utter rubbish like that (except MP3 which is passable). Those formats sucked, old or not, and outputs of their encoders were never watchable. Welcome to 2008, man.
(Posts like that could mislead people.)
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BakaBT was NEVER in that business to begin with. Most 720p break compatibility anyway since they are higher then Lv.4.1 or too many reference frames, ect. That "new cheap hardware upgrades" are from the LAST 5 YEARS, if you have brains enough to set up your PC correctly.
Not true. Majority of dxva engines (Nvidia, Intel (sic!), some ATi iirc) support 16 reference frames for 1920x1080 stream. Better ones of those consumer boxes do so too (and interestingly... it seems to me that generally it's precisely those better ones that people claim to be using, in this thread.) So there. This thing was pointed out already in this thread too, I believe.
But none of them support ordered chapters, and while I think a few do have karaoke support now, I don't believe there are any which have proper support for softsubbed typesetting (though I imagine they still play fine, with the only issue being somewhat messed-up subs, so that's not necessarily all that big a problem). There are plenty of releases on BakaBT which won't play properly on consumer boxes (though in fairness, most will at least partially work).
Personally I agree with Kam. We should try and keep an 8-bit fallback version where available, at least in the short to medium term, but if there isn't one (which will be the case for an increasing number of series), then people will just have to make do with 10-bit. There is no real cost to maintaining an 8-bit fallback version where necessary, so honestly it would just be selfish not to.
However, people do need to be aware that the fansub community is moving towards 10-bit (for better or worse), and there will come a point where, if they can't play 10-bit, then they're not going to be able to play any fansub releases at all, so they do need to consider upgrading, or going elsewhere for their anime.
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Exactly. What fansub groups might possibly do is irrelevant here. Fansub groups can release whatever they want, but the question is what bakabt's policy is going to be like, i.e. whether to keep fallback options if there is the 8bit version (I expect there will be more often than not).
It might seem somewhat irrelevant to the topic of what BBT's policy might be or what the staff decide to do. But that doesn't change the fact that what fansub groups decide to release adversely affects how this policy will be implemented. Not to mention that it affects a good number of users as well.
If the staff decide to keep 8-bit fallback options, then that's great. Everyone will be happy. The point I was raising is that if more fansub groups switch to 10-bit for new shows released in 2012, then it greatly affects this policy in the future. The fansub groups have to make the decision to continue to release in 8-bit for fallback options to even exist and I just don't see that happening as often this year.
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Exactly. What fansub groups might possibly do is irrelevant here. Fansub groups can release whatever they want, but the question is what bakabt's policy is going to be like, i.e. whether to keep fallback options if there is the 8bit version (I expect there will be more often than not).
It might seem somewhat irrelevant to the topic of what BBT's policy might be or what the staff decide to do. But that doesn't change the fact that what fansub groups decide to release adversely affects how this policy will be implemented. Not to mention that it affects a good number of users as well.
If the staff decide to keep 8-bit fallback options, then that's great. Everyone will be happy. The point I was raising is that if more fansub groups switch to 10-bit for new shows released in 2012, then it greatly affects this policy in the future. The fansub groups have to make the decision to continue to release in 8-bit for fallback options to even exist and I just don't see that happening as often this year.
FYI I just DL from a Fansub group the first episode of a new season of one that is just started airing this past weekend and although it is encoded from TV(one of AT-X's channels i believe) it dose play on my set top unit so it is more than likely an 8bit encode. Plus some of the other fansub groups i have been following are producing both 8 and 10 bit encodes. One of them even stated that their 8bit version will come out faster than the 10bit ones as they are easier to script and time than the 10bit version. After the series is compleated i might try and figure out how to offer the new season here even though it a TV rip.
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Exactly. What fansub groups might possibly do is irrelevant here. Fansub groups can release whatever they want, but the question is what bakabt's policy is going to be like, i.e. whether to keep fallback options if there is the 8bit version (I expect there will be more often than not).
It might seem somewhat irrelevant to the topic of what BBT's policy might be or what the staff decide to do. But that doesn't change the fact that what fansub groups decide to release adversely affects how this policy will be implemented. Not to mention that it affects a good number of users as well.
If the staff decide to keep 8-bit fallback options, then that's great. Everyone will be happy. The point I was raising is that if more fansub groups switch to 10-bit for new shows released in 2012, then it greatly affects this policy in the future. The fansub groups have to make the decision to continue to release in 8-bit for fallback options to even exist and I just don't see that happening as often this year.
You seem to only think about airing series. How many new titles are there, every year? Subtract the ones that won't get subbed, subtract those that get licensed prohibitively (not a low number) and after all, those that will get 8bit in fact (I wouldn't be surprised if that still keeps being majority).
In contrast, there is like 8000 entries in anidb now. Shows of 2012, 2013, ... are not nearly the whole of anime being leeched...
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You seem to only think about airing series. How many new titles are there, every year? Subtract the ones that won't get subbed, subtract those that get licensed prohibitively (not a low number) and after all, those that will get 8bit in fact (I wouldn't be surprised if that still keeps being majority).
In contrast, there is like 8000 entries in anidb now. Shows of 2012, 2013, ... are not nearly the whole of anime being leeched...
Of course. I have only been talking about new shows currently airing or those coming out later this year (but let's not forget Blu-Ray releases for 2011 shows and movies while we're at it) because that is where this topic really becomes an issue. Not every show will have multiple groups working on it. There could be a show that only one group will work on and that one group might decide only to release it in 10-bit. It's not an unrealistic possibility. There is also the possibility that there might be 2-3 groups working on a show and all their versions could be 10-bit. Neither of these scenarios is out of the realm of possibility since it's still January and there is a lot of anime yet to be released.
8-bit people who want to watch 10-bit only shows and movies will have to find alternatives or make compromises regardless of the staff's decision on how to treat 8-bit and 10-bit. That's all I'm saying. If there are 8-bit alternatives, great. But if not, then there's a problem.
If the majority of releases continue to be 8-bit, like you speculate, then that's a win for everybody. I hope you're right.
FYI I just DL from a Fansub group the first episode of a new season of one that is just started airing this past weekend and although it is encoded from TV(one of AT-X's channels i believe) it dose play on my set top unit so it is more than likely an 8bit encode. Plus some of the other fansub groups i have been following are producing both 8 and 10 bit encodes. One of them even stated that their 8bit version will come out faster than the 10bit ones as they are easier to script and time than the 10bit version. After the series is compleated i might try and figure out how to offer the new season here even though it a TV rip.
Excellent. I wish more groups would continue to make 8-bit versions so more people can watch anime without any problems. I am all for 8-bit sticking around and I personally don't see any harm in allowing 8-bit versions and 10-bit versions to coexist here on BBT.
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There are usually raws floating on meowtracker too, so people can just mux that with scripts. I'd say that a situation where there would be only one and at the same time 10-bit video file lurking on the whole web is going to be rare.
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they cant c
ask yourself why we are here in the first place ? they can coexist for ever - the groups are already pretty crowded.
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Yes, you bastards. It doesn't matter that you take the time to encode, translate, time and typeset everything for free for us. You don't do it they way I want to, so you suck. Oh sorry about that, I had my Entitlement Hat on. That think makes me think I'm entitled to have whatever I want however I want it, even though I don't have any right to demand it. Good think there's not too many of these hats around.... or are there?
The poster you responded to, if you bothered to read his previous posts, is a proponent of Hi10P. He is just aware of us 8-bit people and think the encoders could show solidarity with us, as fellow anime-fans. I very much appreciate his sentiment! "The more, the merrier", as it goes.
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Bakabt could use it's weight to suggest that these groups should indeed still put out 8-bit encodes, because it would maintain a wider community for distribution.
BakaBT has no right to tell fansubbers to do anything, and nobody else does for that matter. You forget that only is few cases do the fansubbers upload to BakaBT themselves. Most groups upload their own batch. As such, they wouldn't care about what BakaBT says about the metter anyway.
Or in some cases, we do both, depending on whether folks feel like doing their own offers. It's not like fansubbers have special rights here (which is fine for the most part).
Yes, you *censored*. It doesn't matter that you take the time to encode, translate, time and typeset everything for free for us. You don't do it they way I want to, so you suck. Oh sorry about that, I had my Entitlement Hat on. That think makes me think I'm entitled to have whatever I want however I want it, even though I don't have any right to demand it. Good think there's not too many of these hats around.... or are there?
I personally don't think it's "entitlement" per se. Yes, you can decline people's requests, but it should be supported by a reason, which should not originate from anger or irritation.
You've forgotten that Fansub distribution is about getting anime we can't otherwise watch distributed to all the kinds of fans who watch it.
That ship has sailed long ago my friend. True, maybe 10% of groups still believe that. Most either do it for the e-penis, to piss off the R1 companies, or, like me, because I want my releases in a certain way, and if nobody is releasing it the way I want it, I'm going to make my own. Hint, hint? Nudge-nudge?
Considering that you are an encoder, you probably have the hardware and the necessary knowledge to make your own reencodes. However, the skills and knowledge to properly do a reencode in a quality that people expect is not something that everyone can do, no matter how much you try to give directions or advice. In essence, because of our skills, we are serving the people watching our releases, and we are the servants. We are not the master.
As for encoding effort to do both 8-bit and Hi10P, it only takes slightly double the amount of time to get the final encodes done, in my experience. Part of the reason is that I work with lossless masters until I get to the final encode, and the other part of the reason is good organization.
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Considering that you are an encoder, you probably have the hardware and the necessary knowledge to make your own reencodes. However, the skills and knowledge to properly do a reencode in a quality that people expect is not something that everyone can do, no matter how much you try to give directions or advice. In essence, because of our skills, we are serving the people watching our releases, and we are the servants. We are not the master.
What kind of backwards thinking is that? I don't know about you, but the only reason I encode is for myself. The fact that I share with everyone else is just because I'm nice. You consider the leeches the masters? That's extremely silly, and quite frankly, I'm insulted. If you regard yourself as a servant to the masses, be my guest, but don't lump me in with you.
PS: You're not really a servant unless you do whatever they tell you to do. For example, the encoders who are using 10bit only cannot be regarded as servants to the masses, since the masses demand 8bit.
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Yay, the second person to call me Goushujin-sama! ^_^
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Ripping for yourself? Whoa, that's quite some waste of time. If I wasn't doing it for others, I would never ever bother with all the time-consuming encoding stuff, not to even mention all even more time-consuming the subtitle/timing/checking. I'd say it's weird to spend six hours in order to watch something... and doing a decent rip can often take days of work :(
Suit yourself though.
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Suit yourself though.
Right back at you. I find it incredible to waste so much time doing something for someone else with absolutely no benefit.
Also... days of work? You kidding? It takes me at most 2 hours to rip one episode from a bluray.
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Suit yourself though.
Right back at you. I find it incredible to waste so much time doing something for someone else with absolutely no benefit.
Perhaps they just love e-peen...
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Considering that you are an encoder, you probably have the hardware and the necessary knowledge to make your own reencodes. However, the skills and knowledge to properly do a reencode in a quality that people expect is not something that everyone can do, no matter how much you try to give directions or advice. In essence, because of our skills, we are serving the people watching our releases, and we are the servants. We are not the master.
What kind of backwards thinking is that? I don't know about you, but the only reason I encode is for myself. The fact that I share with everyone else is just because I'm nice. You consider the leeches the masters? That's extremely silly, and quite frankly, I'm insulted. If you regard yourself as a servant to the masses, be my guest, but don't lump me in with you.
PS: You're not really a servant unless you do whatever they tell you to do. For example, the encoders who are using 10bit only cannot be regarded as servants to the masses, since the masses demand 8bit.
It's not backward thinking at all. Just think a little bit outside the box, and think of our role as encoders in the grand scheme of things. :)
Also, all the discussions on the time it takes to sub or reencode an episode should come with the caveat that the time required is dependent on the content and the amount of cleanup the raw needs. Granted, a fansubber would have to take longer than a reencoder due to the time required for translation, though. For my group, it takes anywhere from 6 to 10 hours of work to get an episode ready for release. Luckily, translation and the initial parts of encoding can take place simultaneously.
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Ah, I see. When you said "rip" I though you meant only encoding the video.
But we're getting way off topic here. Let's stop.
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I think there is a lot of un-educated posts in this forum, especially on the side of people siding with Hi10P content. While I am all for better encoding methods, Hi10P just isn't it. It's merely a brief spark in a much larger picture.
Hi10P will be dead within a year's time, some of these groups failed to do any sort of research and just jumped on the bandwagon. the H.265 standard is set to be finalized in January 2013 which will replace H.264 completely. It offers better compression (smaller file sizes like Hi10P offers) but without all the sacrifices Hi10P makes. It's the best of both worlds.
Disappointing that so much time is being spent on this Hi10P crap, when it's just a blip on the radar.
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Hi10P will be dead within a year's time, some of these groups failed to do any sort of research and just jumped on the bandwagon. the H.265 standard is set to be finalized in January 2013 which will replace H.264 completely. It offers better compression (smaller file sizes like Hi10P offers) but without all the sacrifices Hi10P makes. It's the best of both worlds.
Are you saying that in one years time we'll have hardware players that will play h265? Seriously? You have to be really naive to think that.
Also, can I borrow your crystal ball for a moment? I'd like to see the next lottery numbers.
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I find it incredible to waste so much time doing something for someone else with absolutely no benefit.
There's no benefit in ripping for myself. If I was the target, putting any time into the work would be foolish (well duh, because this ripping thing *is* a foolishly dumb thing to do).
The fact that other people will find the work useful is the only thing that puts some semblance of sense into this. It's still a damn waste of time, but at least it makes someone glad. Enjoying the so-called e-penis is even dumber (because that's not productive at all).
And of course I wasn't talking about encoding. What cpu does by itself, without need for any human assistance isn't wasting my time. I meant filtering out defects, making sure IVTC is correct, freezeframing if needed, and then checking it all for possible faults.
Blurays these days must be nice to rip it seems...
H.265 standard is set to be finalized in January 2013 which will replace H.264 completely. It offers better compression (smaller file sizes like Hi10P offers) but without all the sacrifices Hi10P makes.
1) Sadly, it won't be so easy. Note that the great performance h.264 shows for us is for the most part realised by the great sophistication of the x264 encoder (the format is what gives you possibilities, the encoder is what realises them - or fails to). There won't be a similarly advanced encoder for h.265 from the start, it may even take multiple years for the encoders to catch up with x264, thanks to all the tricks x264 has up its sleeve.
2) H.265 won't be compatible with current HW decoders either, and its cpu decoding requirements will be higher than high 10 profile of h.264.
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Hi10P will be dead within a year's time, some of these groups failed to do any sort of research and just jumped on the bandwagon. the H.265 standard is set to be finalized in January 2013 which will replace H.264 completely. It offers better compression (smaller file sizes like Hi10P offers) but without all the sacrifices Hi10P makes. It's the best of both worlds.
Are you saying that in one years time we'll have hardware players that will play h265? Seriously? You have to be really naive to think that.
Also, can I borrow your crystal ball for a moment? I'd like to see the next lottery numbers.
If we're always moving on to the next new thing in software, then yes, Hi10P is a dead end isn't it. And that's exactly what you've argued for, that encoders should always move on to the next new thing that makes it easier for them, regardless of hardware support. So as soon as h265 encoders are out there, that's what people who watch anime should expect to have to decode.
And I think it's quite likely that HEVC hardware decoders will have development and production priority over Hi10P hardware decoders.
Of course, you could always make your own, right. ;)
1) Sadly, it won't be so easy. Note that the great performance h.264 shows for us is for the most part realised by the great sophistication of the x264 encoder (the format is what gives you possibilities, the encoder is what realises them - or fails to). There won't be a similarly advanced encoder for h.265 from the start, it may even take multiple years for the encoders to catch up with x264, thanks to all the tricks x264 has up its sleeve.
Hah! Seriously? Like the way they waited till Hi10P was mature, and not just enabled it as soon as the option became available? We already know, from the statements on this thread, that "Elite" encoders don't care about the maturity of the support for a new video encoding method. They want the latest and greatest, and they want it now.
2) H.265 won't be compatible with current HW decoders either, and its cpu decoding requirements will be higher than high 10 profile of h.264.
And as evidenced above, the new "Elites" of Fansubs do not care. You should "have a decent computer".
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One difference: there will be no actual h265 encoder available for a few years. So even IF h265 comes out next year, nobody will be able to use it. And yes, as soon as there's an encoder and I have a powerful enough PC, I'll switch to h275.
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Incidentally, there's no actual thing as H.265... HEVC is currently being developed as an extention to the H.264 standard, so it's actual name will likely be "H.264/High Efficiency Video Coding" in the same way the real name of the video standard we commonly use is actually "H.264/Advanced Video Coding".
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2) H.265[']s cpu decoding requirements will be higher than high 10 profile of h.264.
Not necessarily true! From Wiki:
Evaluations showed that some proposals could reach the same visual quality as AVC at only half the bit rate in many of the test cases, at the cost of 2x-10x increase in computational complexity; and some proposals achieved good subjective quality and bit rate results with lower computational complexity than the reference AVC High profile encodings.
So there might be one "high quality" profile that's "better" (smaller files for same quality) but more computationally expensive and one "performance" profile that produces similar results but is faster than H.264.
Anyway, anyone referring to 10-bit H.264 as Hi10P is also morally required to refer to the upcoming video standard as HEVC, its proper name (currently, though of course the final draft might suggest another).
And I think it's quite likely that HEVC hardware decoders will have development and production priority over Hi10P hardware decoders.
And this is, of course, very much true, and the reason why companies generally refrain from committing to support for Hi10P. Hi10P will generally be the Windows ME/Vista of encoding, supposedly a bit better than its predecessor, but destined to be replaced by a superior alternative without ever "coming into its own".
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One difference: there will be no actual h265 encoder available for a few years. So even IF h265 comes out next year, nobody will be able to use it. And yes, as soon as there's an encoder and I have a powerful enough PC, I'll switch to h275.
Reference code is already available. https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/ (https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/)
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Hi10P will generally be the Windows ME/Vista of encoding, supposedly a bit better than its predecessor, but destined to be replaced by a superior alternative without ever "coming into its own".
That may very well be true, but why not use it while we can? It works fine for me, and a lot of others, and is better then 8bit, for those of us it works for. When something better comes along, I say "Bring it on!". As long as it's functional, of course. Before anyone says something, 10bit is perfectly functional for me.
Reference code is already available. https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/ (https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/)
But is it usable? And I make a 720p encode in 2 hours with it? What about decoders? Are there decoders available for it?
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And I make a 720p encode in 2 hours with it?
If you can't, you really should get a new computer - my 256-node Ivy Bridge cluster can do it in 2 hours without a problem. You shouldn't be using hardware from 2011 today.
;)
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If you can't, you really should get a new computer - my 256-node Ivy Bridge cluster can do it in 2 hours without a problem. You shouldn't be using hardware from 2011 today.
;)
Uhm... you can make a 720p HEVC encode in 2 hours? Really?
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If you can't, you really should get a new computer - my 256-node Ivy Bridge cluster can do it in 2 hours without a problem. You shouldn't be using hardware from 2011 today.
;)
Uhm... you can make a 720p HEVC encode in 2 hours? Really?
As I thought the smiley would help indicate, I was being facetious. Ivy Bridge is (to my knowledge) not yet released, and I certainly don't have one, much less a 256-node cluster.
I was just exaggerating similarly expressed thoughts on people whose computers can't play Hi10P, that is, turning your own argument back on you.
With a smile. ;)
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Reference code is already available. https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/ (https://hevc.hhi.fraunhofer.de/svn/svn_HEVCSoftware/trunk/)
But is it usable? And I make a 720p encode in 2 hours with it? What about decoders? Are there decoders available for it?
It's reference code... Look up what that means. And of course technically it doesn't 'work' and won't till the standard is stabilised and the output from it is meaningful for decoding. It's proof of concept code, that could be used to create encodings now but they might not work with future decoders.
You were saying that it will be years before we see software encoders for HEVC. With reference code already existing, and because this is an evolutionary step on AVC that can use existing frameworks, I do not see ffmpeg/libav/x.264 taking several years after the standard is released to get their first implementations out.
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As I thought the smiley would help indicate, I was being facetious. Ivy Bridge is (to my knowledge) not yet released, and I certainly don't have one, much less a 256-node cluster.I was just exaggerating similarly expressed thoughts on people whose computers can't play Hi10P, that is, turning your own argument back on you.With a smile. ;)
Huh... guess that one flew right over my head... That's embarrassing. Back to the point: when h265 will have both an encoder and a stable decoder, then people will most likely switch to it.
Think about this: 10bit encoding has actually been possible since like... 2007 if I'm not mistaken. But there was no usable decoder until 2010. So even if HEVC comes around next month, it will be years until you see fansubs using it.
PS: I love the name HEVC.
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As I thought the smiley would help indicate, I was being facetious. Ivy Bridge is (to my knowledge) not yet released, and I certainly don't have one, much less a 256-node cluster.I was just exaggerating similarly expressed thoughts on people whose computers can't play Hi10P, that is, turning your own argument back on you.With a smile. ;)
Huh... guess that one flew right over my head... That's embarrassing. Back to the point: when h265 will have both an encoder and a stable decoder, then people will most likely switch to it.
Think about this: 10bit encoding has actually been possible since like... 2007 if I'm not mistaken. But there was no usable decoder until 2010. So even if HEVC comes around next month, it will be years until you see fansubs using it.
PS: I love the name HEVC.
There were decoders available, just not freetard-friendly. 10-bit encoding with x264 was happened about a year before the decoding happened.
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The fact that other people will find the work useful is the only thing that puts some semblance of sense into this.
Considering the fansubs, why one does them is of course a personal matter. I fansub mostly to pay back to the community, since others help me watch things. But there are various reasons, and none is better than the other.
What is clear though, is that the approach from the fansub groups with respect to Hi10P is/will be completely different. Some just release what they find best, take it or leave it; some listen a bit to the users, but mostly take their own decisions; finally some listen more, and really tries to please the crowd. And in no way do I think that Baka's policies will affect what is released from the fansubbers.
Disregarding that, isn't it time to stop flaming, since it's been going in circles or way off topic since long? Our kind moderators should have more than enough pages to read by now...
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Actually "Hi10P will be quickly obsoleted by HEVC" is an interesting argument. The implication of this is that BakaBT should actually consider Hi10P to have less benefit. Because of the Archive part of High Quality Archive. Hi10P might be flavour of the month right now, but it's got a very limited life.
In a few years are people going to be annoyed that the "High Quality Archive" versions between 2011-2013 are in this weird dead-end format?
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In a few years are people going to be annoyed that the "High Quality Archive" versions between 2011-2013 are in this weird dead-end format?
Why would they? This would have been the best format available at this time. And even if they will be, they will do the same thing people do now about old xvix releases from early 2000: remake them with today's standards.
And Hi10P will not be obsolete "quickly". Even if they make it a standard in 2013, you probably still won't be able to use it efficiently. And you could, you'll just use it.
Here's what you're saying: Don't use method Y (10bit) to encode. Keep using method X (8bit) because soon, method Z(HEVC) will come that will be better then method Y.
My response: Why not use method Y until method Z is in place?
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Here's what you're saying: Don't use method Y (10bit) to encode. Keep using method X (8bit) because soon, method Z(HEVC) will come that will be better then method Y.
My response: Why not use method Y until method Z is in place?
Because Method Y will disadvantage a lot of people, and there will be no hardware decoding support, while both X and Z will have hardware decoding support.
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The differences is...
Companies and people are willing to embrace the HEVC as the successor of H264-AVC. Full support in both hardware and software for sure. Awaiting for it.
While Hi10P may never get decent hardware support, hardware accelerate, etc.(and got people arguing here and there)
Because by that time it will likely got overshadowed by HEVC already (or nearly).
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Well, if HEVC comes to a usable state, I guess I better add another release format to the list of things to do before a release. :)
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Think about this: 10bit encoding has actually been possible since like... 2007 if I'm not mistaken. But there was no usable decoder until 2010.
http://git.videolan.org/?p=x264.git;a=commit;h=d058f37d9af8fc425fa0626695a190eb3aa032af (http://git.videolan.org/?p=x264.git;a=commit;h=d058f37d9af8fc425fa0626695a190eb3aa032af)
(Free) decoders came roughly around mid-2011 if I remember correctly.
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HEVC is still quite a ways off before it will be viable. As of right now HEVC around 3.5x more computationally complex than 10-bit H.264 for ~10% compression benefit, and psycho-visual quality is most definitely worse than x264 since they keep wanting to optimize for PSNR and low-pass everything. By the time they reach their target compression goal, HEVC is expected to end up at least 10x more computationally complex than H.264. Then someone will need to optimize the damn thing so it doesn't end up 100x slower than x264 like it was last year.
The first commercial deployments of HEVC aren't expected any sooner than 2014/2015, and some are expected to use software decoding/encoding because commodity CPU clusters are expected to offer better price/performance compared to the massive and expensive fixed silicon required for HEVC hardware decoders/encoders. The big push for HEVC will be for use in Super-HighVision (7680x4320) and QFHD (3840x2160) TV broadcasts and video distribution. H.264 being the standard codec for 1080p and below is not expected to change for the foreseeable future. It's been said that the majority of HEVC's compression benefits over H264 come at resolutions greater than 1080p.
Overall we are probably looking at no sooner than 2016 before HEVC becomes viable over x264 (10-bit H.264) for the masses. That's a good 4+ years from now. To put that into perspective x264 has only been available for a little over 6 years. Saying everybody should avoid 10-bit x264 and wait for HEVC isn't really a compelling argument at this point in time. We had our 5 years where 8-bit x264 reigned supreme over mpeg2/mpeg4-asp and lesser h.264 implementations. Now it's time for our 5 years where 10-bit x264 reigns supreme over 8-bit h.264 and premature initial implementations of HEVC.
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Above me is one of the best and most coherent posts I've read on this forum.
Well done, sir, you are indeed a gentleman and a scholar.
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cyberbeing has always been knowledgeable from what I've seen :)
Hell... I see such a little sign of excitement over 10-bit from manufacturers as of now, even communities except Anime encoding (Hope I'm wrong).
But anyway, before the time HEVC becomes widely usable, hardware standard gonna be a lot better hence they should handle 10-bit or any variant alike pretty easily like handle Xvid today.
So it's a good thing we've got quite a lot of time to enjoy 10-bit h264.
And this is still in the transition time I guess (just like when x264 start taking over years ago), so you don't have to rush people too much? which is a real topic here, not that off-topic 10-bit vs 8-bit discussion, it's a fact that 10-bit is better and people should just know this already.
But don't look down on some people who can't satisfy the elitist, they may have reasonable issues enough aswell. (Unreasonable anti-type is another story)
10-bit stuffs on bakabt just got as many as 4 pages on 'browse' as I said awhile back. Personally I hunger for more to play with my setup but then again maybe it's still in the transition period.
(Recently LAV decoder just implement the Intel QuickSync HW acceleration which is a pure win for me, though it's usable only for 8-bit...again)
I hope they re-release things to 10-bit especially top animes which they think worth it. Now Suzumiya Haruhi series+movie for sure from Delicio.us .
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But anyway, before the time HEVC becomes widely usable, hardware standard gonna be a lot better hence they should handle 10-bit or any variant alike pretty easily like handle Xvid today.
Except that Hi10P/Hi422P/Hi444PP are not intended as consumer formats, and there is no apparent intent to make them such. So there won't be any hardware support.
And one fundamental difference is that unlike the current situation where AVC High Profile hardware tends to actually have a lot of tolerance for MPEG4 like content... Except when the difference is capability based. A h.264/AVC HiP/XP decoder can take the kinds of content we throw at it, because a HiP/XP decoder covers the capabilities of most MPEG4 variants. And they can even cope with content that exceeds the specification, because most of that is just being able to run a bit faster, and having longer queues and larger stacks than explicitly required by the profile level.
Except for Hi10p.
That requires a whole new capability, and not one that can be dropped in to existing hardware decoders...
And Hi10p isn't a consumer video standard. And the next one that the industry is developing for to be a better consumer video standard is HEVC. So there isn't a push for Hi10p decoders before HEVC ones.
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And Hi10p isn't a consumer video standard. And the next one that the industry is developing for to be a better consumer video standard is HEVC. So there isn't a push for Hi10p decoders before HEVC ones.
But it IS the best available format for the PC. This can't really be debated. So it shall be used.
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And Hi10p isn't a consumer video standard. And the next one that the industry is developing for to be a better consumer video standard is HEVC. So there isn't a push for Hi10p decoders before HEVC ones.
That's what I'm worrying.
As i said, Hi10P may never get decent hardware support, hardware accelerate, etc.
When they start to get attention in 10-bit and think of doing something for real, by that time it maybe a bit too late.
The industry+people much more anticipate in HEVC rather than this Hi10Profile of H.264. (Even Hi10p has been around for quite some time(encoding since 2007 ?) but look at the reaction now still...)
And as of now I'm seeing only Anime community that push this. (others such as scene community, they often seems lazy in moving to new things but they are a lot bigger than us Anime community)
Whatever... By that time if it's inconvenient I hope someone re-release these Hi10p titles to something else better for the purpose of archiving (which I think is the most important).
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It is very very easy to understand why 10-bit will never take off.
BD Disks are pretty big, storage space and ISP provide ever increasing speeds.
Ideally your future device may not have much HD capacity and all your files would be stored on a server - this will be OK due to the increasing Internet speeds. So bitrate starvation of videos is going to be less and less necessary (Space is cheap!). Hell it is MUCH MUCH simpler (and breaks ALMOST NOTHING) to just increase bitrate of videos to increase quality.
Not many people care or notice minute quality differences. HD channel providers like Dish Network do not really deliver great quality HD content and neither does YouTube - but you don't see anyone complaining / noticing this.
No one is going to notice difference between content recorded at 10-bit definition vs. 8-bit definition. There is no use for that much color information - aside from increasing quality of starved encodes.
More over there is money involvement. Anyone who would switch will loose customers, loose support, etc. There should be a reason to invest in this, otherwise it is a waste of money.
The fact that anime piracy communities are the biggest and loudest proponents of 10-bit encoding doesn't really help much either - it is like a bunch of Pedophiles trying to raise money for a Presidential Candidate.
TLDR:
10-bit will never take off because space and bandwidth are ever increasing, quality is not an issue, and 'because anime pirates use it' is a very bad argument
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Hell it is MUCH MUCH simpler (and breaks ALMOST NOTHING) to just increase bitrate of videos to increase quality.
Should we go back to XviD? I mean it looks as good as the current fansubs if you just increase bitrate.
Not many people care or notice minute quality differences.
No one is going to notice difference between content recorded at 10-bit definition vs. 8-bit definition.
I bet they will notice the size difference.
There is no use for that much color information
As it's been stated a few times, the benefit of 10 bit is that there's less rounding errors during the encoding process, which leads to better compression.
There should be a reason to invest in this, otherwise it is a waste of money.
http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_does_10bit_save_bandwidth.pdf (http://x264.nl/x264/10bit_02-ateme-why_does_10bit_save_bandwidth.pdf)
http://www.ateme.com/10-bit-accuracy-a-must-for-Sky (http://www.ateme.com/10-bit-accuracy-a-must-for-Sky)The efficiency of the ATEME MPEG-4 4:2:2 10-bit compression allows SKY Italia to increase the number of channels transmitted while keeping the same backbone.
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As much as I understand that, technically speaking, 10-bit is better than 8-bit in almost every way, I simply cannot play such files because my netbook isn't powerful enough.
Yes, I know that a lot of you will just say, "Go buy a /good/ PC, then", but I don't have the money for that, nor enough time for a job, because I'm still underage and I have to study lots to get good grades - something that I consider to be more important than buying a good PC.
My parents won't buy it for me, nor would I ask it of them as the only reason I'd need a better computer is to watch anime that's a bit prettier than before.
I fear people might not take me seriously because I'm not even 18 yet, but it's a fact that I want to watch anime, but won't be able to if 10-bit takes over. No matter how much better 10-bit could be, I simply cannot watch such anime. If fansubs become 10-bit only, then I'll have no choice but to drop anime until I can afford a new computer, but as long as 8-bit anime will exist, I think Bakabt should offer it - because for me, 10-bit just isn't an alternative.
I know that I'm part of a minority, but would it really hurt that much to cater to people like me, too?
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lsabelys, you are missing the point a little. 10bit has kind of already taken over. Look at new series, more then 80% of them are 10bit. Some also offer 8bit or xvid SD, but almost all 720p and 1080 new releases are 10bit. We're not talking about that.
What we're talking about is if BakaBT should have a special slot for 8bit... kind of. It's a little more then that, but that's the simplified version.
My point is that 10bit has already taken over, and that this argument is pretty much pointless, because soon, there's not going to be an 8bit version for a lot of shows.
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Should we go back to XviD? I mean it looks as good as the current fansubs if you just increase bitrate.
NO, reason being:
XVID ain't much supported by GPUs. I think newer NVIDIA GPUs can do XVID, but I am not sure or care.
Thus XVID/DIVX is CPU dependent and quality depends on the CPU capabilities.
Whereas for H264, all GPU can push out AT LEAST the BD spec maximum.
NVIDIA and Intel seems to have gone far beyond that and AMD/Radeon is also trying to catch up.
In other words, h264 playback is guaranteed up to certain point.
Also h264 CPU codecs seem way faster (with a big fat exception of 10-bit).
I bet they will notice the size difference.
See my previous post,
BD Disks are pretty big, storage space and ISP provide ever increasing speeds.
Ideally your future device may not have much HD capacity and all your files would be stored on a server - this will be OK due to the increasing Internet speeds. So bitrate starvation of videos is going to be less and less necessary (Space is cheap!). Hell it is MUCH MUCH simpler (and breaks ALMOST NOTHING) to just increase bitrate of videos to increase quality.
As it's been stated a few times, the benefit of 10 bit is that there's less rounding errors during the encoding process, which leads to better compression.
See my previous post,
Hell it is MUCH MUCH simpler (and breaks ALMOST NOTHING) to just increase bitrate of videos to increase quality.
And see my previous post,
There is no use for that much color information - aside from increasing quality of starved encodes.
Also, Sky Italia "an Italian digital satellite television" (WIKI) has little to do with... desktop computers and Internet and end users.
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lsabelys, you are missing the point a little. 10bit has kind of already taken over. Look at new series, more then 80% of them are 10bit. Some also offer 8bit or xvid SD, but almost all 720p and 1080 new releases are 10bit. We're not talking about that.
What we're talking about is if BakaBT should have a special slot for 8bit... kind of. It's a little more then that, but that's the simplified version.
My point is that 10bit has already taken over, and that this argument is pretty much pointless, because soon, there's not going to be an 8bit version for a lot of shows.
I understand that - and I should have worded my post differently; sorry for that.
I've been following this thread for a while, so I know what it's about (even though I find the specific details to be a bit too complex, since I don't know much about actual encoding). ^^
Of course, if there's nothing but 10-bit, then I can't ask for something else. However, many people seem to think that because 10-bit is better than 8-bit, 8-bit should be left unsupported from now on - not just by most fansubs, but by Bakabt as a whole, as well.
I wanted to clarify that since 10-bit isn't an option for some people, it would make sense to keep an 8-bit dedicated slot on Bakabt.
Since it's perfectly logical that Bakabt can't host 8-bit torrents if they're not there, I thought people automatically assumed this while posting, so I thought the discussion was about whether or not Bakabt should host them even if 10-bit versions exist as well. If I interpreted things wrongly, then I apologize.
(Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought I'd thank you for being a lot less rude than most internet users.)
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Since it's perfectly logical that Bakabt can't host 8-bit torrents if they're not there, I thought people automatically assumed this while posting, so I thought the discussion was about whether or not Bakabt should host them even if 10-bit versions exist as well. If I interpreted things wrongly, then I apologize.
(Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought I'd thank you for being a lot less rude than most internet users.)
Well, here's the thing: you have just explained EXACTLY what this thread was about. It's just that so many people came here and started talking about this other thing (10bit VS 8bit), that I didn't even consider the fact that you might have ACTUALLY understood what the true subject was.
The fact that it didn't even cross my mind that someone might come here to talk about... well the topic, just shows how far off the deep end this thread has gone.
PS: I'm plenty rude, but only to those who themselves are rude. I have no reason, nor desire to be rude to someone who was nice, coherent and intelligent. I just don't come across many of those. Nice to see a fresh face.... name with a good head on his shoulders..... OK, I think I've tortured this metaphor enough.
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Well, here's the thing: you have just explained EXACTLY what this thread was about. It's just that so many people came here and started talking about this other thing (10bit VS 8bit), that I didn't even consider the fact that you might have ACTUALLY understood what the true subject was.
The fact that it didn't even cross my mind that someone might come here to talk about... well the topic, just shows how far off the deep end this thread has gone.
PS: I'm plenty rude, but only to those who themselves are rude. I have no reason, nor desire to be rude to someone who was nice, coherent and intelligent. I just don't come across many of those. Nice to see a fresh face.... name with a good head on his shoulders..... OK, I think I've tortured this metaphor enough.
It's unfortunately a slippery slope when it comes to the "acceleration of removal of 8-bit encodes". The more 8-bit encodes are marginalized, the less likely fansubbing encoders will use it.
This tracker has a lot more influence than most people realize. Considering that this tracker serves as probably one of the biggest repositories of torrents of subbed anime that is pretty much guaranteed to have seeds (I know this isn't exactly how it works, but bear with me on this one), a lot of the policies set by the administration here will influence what fansubbers will do.
This is why most of us who still do 8-bit encoding are so adamant about fighting this, as the system set right now is, in my opinion, a good compromise between the 10-bit and the 8-bit folks.
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Since it's perfectly logical that Bakabt can't host 8-bit torrents if they're not there, I thought people automatically assumed this while posting, so I thought the discussion was about whether or not Bakabt should host them even if 10-bit versions exist as well. If I interpreted things wrongly, then I apologize.
(Also, this is somewhat unrelated, but I thought I'd thank you for being a lot less rude than most internet users.)
Well, here's the thing: you have just explained EXACTLY what this thread was about. It's just that so many people came here and started talking about this other thing (10bit VS 8bit), that I didn't even consider the fact that you might have ACTUALLY understood what the true subject was.
You are the one one who keeps prophecizing complete doom of 8bit encodes at the hands of groups, which is actually as irrelevant as it is unlikely... and has nothing to do with how the policy should be set up. (Hint - if there are the slots, it might even encourage members to produce their own encodes for these slots... but if there's no demand, there's no offer.)
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PS: I'm plenty rude, but only to those who themselves are rude. I have no reason, nor desire to be rude to someone who was nice, coherent and intelligent. I just don't come across many of those. Nice to see a fresh face.... name with a good head on his shoulders..... OK, I think I've tortured this metaphor enough.
Mmm. I think rude people are those who act rude against those who don't. Even the kindest and most controlled person could lose his patience when facing, say, your everyday obnoxious troll.
The fact that you have "no reason, nor desire" to act rude against me (who I arrogantly consider to be a civilized person) proves that, as far as I'm concerned, you're not a rude person.
But I'm getting off-topic. If any Bakabt moderator happens to read this, please know that I would want nothing more than just a dedicated 8-bit slot, be it 720p or even (oh, God forbid!) 480p.
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I don`t know if I am too late for this thread, but way I see it site should go for option A. BakaBT is supposed to be for highest quality anime, and at the moment that is 10-bit. Even people who voted for keeping 8-bit will agree to that except for one obvious troll. If encoding in 10-bit means less work for fansubbers, I totally support that option. They also have jobs, school and family commitments, and should appreciate their free time. Demanding that they do both 10-bit and 8-bit versions, or demanding anything in general is only making you a dick. Back to the poll question I think we should do it as soon and as quick as possible. Like rippin of band-aid. As for Aerah, if you hate 10-bit so much and think you know the process better than anyone else, why don`t you start encoding by yourself. You should do it exclusively in 8-bit and offer to community. Even better make a site similar to BakaBT, that deals exclusively in 8-bit anime. That way people that get axed at BakaBT have where to go for their anime.
For everyone else I wish this new year to be full of new anime, be it 10 or 8-bit.
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its better for me the new 10bit because its more hd and has lesser file size.
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i suggest setting a whole new class, the (+) class, i.e. A+ means 1080p hi10p, B+ means 720p hi10p, etc. and an S class for a final release of uber pure quality(either it goes above 1080p or is 100GB for a 20min clip) could consider it as a legendary class.
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i suggest setting a whole new class, the (+) class, i.e. A+ means 1080p hi10p, B+ means 720p hi10p, etc. and an S class for a final release of uber pure quality(either it goes above 1080p and/or is 100GB for a 20min clip) could consider it as a legendary class.
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damn I missed my chance to vote
Personally I am Collecting Both 8 and 10 bit as I have nothing that will playback 10 bit hardware accelerated atm
and my FreeBSD NAS box does not support 10 bit Transcoding yet ...
10 bit great less banding and colors looks better on the display ( with the chuggy fps that comes with it ... )
I could buy a new media player but rather beef up the encoder / file server box
( just not having much luck getting FreeBSD to Transcode my 10 bit on the Fly
( even if it had to pre encode a few eps before the stream I would be happy with that )
as 8 bit releases seem to have now been dropped by many fan subbers
( removing 8 bit from here will only make finding alternatives harder )
I am finding myself now having to re encode 10 bit releases to level 4.1 8 bit so DVXA works but at least its using all the CPU cores for re encoding so if I sacrifice storage space I can almost do it real time the issue seems to be because of the larger file size its having issues playing back the file
I also find many encoders are now going overboard on using insane bit rates that only make 10 bit playback even slower
I agree on slightly higher bit rate same file size as 8 bit 10 bit encoding but not insanely higher bitrate 2x~+ file size 10 bit
of cause same bit rate lower file size 10 bit would be great as well
seriously I have seen some that are 10 gig just for 20 mins ( and the Original Blu Ray source file is smaller !!)
so far I have only found 1 x 10 bit release that actually played back almost playable on my ATOM-ION
Fate-Zero 1-13 [UTW]
any thing else unplayable
[Whine-Subs] Hellsing Ultimate OVA 08 [BD][Hi10p][1080p-FLAC]
has been the most unplayable 10 bit I have ever come across even my gaming rig ( C2Duo 6600 ) would not play it back the bit rate was just to intense
how ever now that Core AVC 3 is out I am sure it would be able to do it now
maybe the new HDD availability crysis will have them choose lower bit rates ,,
this actually has me thinking about the opposite situation I faced when convertx2dvd figured 2 gig for a DVD was just as good a quality as the 4 gig version ..
http://forums.vso-software.fr/conversion-under-2mbps-bit-rate-looking-blocky-1-4hrs-2gig-t13375.html
http://forums.vso-software.fr/wasted-space-t13060-80.html
I still believe 4.7 gig is plenty for 2 hrs worth of motion picture or 200 meg per episode ( double this for 1080p )
( but that's just my opinion considering I am the one having to store 100 + tb worth of media and liking to archive as many COMPLETED Groups as I can love fan subbers work so much I just have to keep it )
ps
if any one knows of a 10 bit capable streaming server that can Transcode 10 bit flawlessly on FreeBSD please let me know
the other thing would be if any one has VLC 2 for FreeBSD I can not get the Nightly to build any more :S so I can not playback any 10 bit
( which would make life hell loads easier as I could just play it Directly from the Server box to the Projector then ... )
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Not everyone watches anime sitting in front of a computer. In the last year and a half MKV support along with DLNA started to
be found on many Blu-ray players and various other set top box style front ends.
So I built a media server that uses such devices in mostly theater style environments,that
can be accessed with a remote instead of a mouse and keyboard. But! that support is limited to 8-bit encodes.
While Media Player Classic does a great job of playing 10-bit files , it's user interface
sets the U.I. back 20 years . And when sitting in a theater type environment the stark white
folder you have to use to choose what you want to watch just kills your eyes.
If there was a Media Center style library that would launch my media in Media Player Classic
I would then be pacified till set top hardware caught up .And jump on the 10-bit band wagon as well .
But I have yet to find one that works any where as smooth WMC7 or other set top players with a remote or mouse.
If you know of one then I would like to see it.
I can't speak for HTPC devices per se, but I have built an HTPC from scratch, and I have no problems running 10-bit encodes. I use CCCP's latest release, set h.264 codec to LAV. For my media center UI, I use MediaPortal in conjunction with the My Anime plugin (can be found on MediaPortal's website). Once CCCP is installed, you can go to MediaPortal's configuration and set LAV to be your default codec for playback. Works like a charm, and very pretty.
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i suggest setting a whole new class, the (+) class, i.e. A+ means 1080p hi10p, B+ means 720p hi10p, etc. and an S class for a final release of uber pure quality(either it goes above 1080p and/or is 100GB for a 20min clip) could consider it as a legendary class.
This legendary class is silly, possibly intentionally so. 100GB for 20min is something beyond 4K probably, and 4k is not really anything to care about. Thats more than anime that you'd find on two BD disks!
BakaBT should support releases which are NOT re-encodes though which can be considered legendary class as any re-encode of the original is a loss. Which would be like 9 GB for a DVD source (without thinking about FLAC).
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with h.265 just around the corner
will they be going back to 8 bit or pushing forward with 10 bit that will be 1/4 file size and near impossible to decode ?
or will h.265 just take to long for encoding for anyone to bother with ?