Author Topic: Bleach Manga Discussion  (Read 133934 times)

Offline Killbasas

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #180 on: April 25, 2009, 07:19:57 PM »
5) The other captains powers have been revealed in their soul society fights against the Ichigo party (although briefly) Bount Arch and the cannon episodes that showed us their past and early development. (Sorry if I am using the word cannon wrong here but it sounds nice either way, I noticed there was a previous argument over the usage of the word in a similar thread. :))

We do not know bankai of Kyoraku Shinsui, Ukitake Jyuushiro and comander captain Yamamoto. We only know bankai of umm... That fox dude, Biakuya (I fail at spelling, so sue me) and pretty much it... Heck, even Ichimaru Gin never used bankai before...

But as the story progres patern goes... It's going to be failed product again... Need a reference? Ulqioras second form, was suppose to be bad ass, but got pwned in one chapter?

Offline zherok

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #181 on: April 25, 2009, 09:15:43 PM »
I think Hitsugaya is basically the Renji of captains. He lacks Renji's terrible win/loss ratio, but as a character he's probably peaked ages ago. Revealing Bankai is only slightly better than revealing your Resurrección (which almost invariably gets you killed shortly afterwards), outside of Ichigo it tends to relegate you to zero character progression land, where you'll never be anything more than whatever you were prior to displaying Bankai.

The fact that out of all revealed Bankais, only Hitsugaya's has a notable limitation (time) means he can be used constantly with successive power levels in a fight (although it usually amounts to him casting Bankai rather quickly) without worrying he'll just flatten the enemy and end it prematurely. He's basically another tool in the large cast of characters to be used when a particular niche needs filling, rather than any interesting element of his character making him worth seeing in a given moment. His personality ain't that great.

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Sorry if I am using the word cannon wrong here but it sounds nice either way
You're thinking of "canon" with one n.

Offline relic2279

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #182 on: April 25, 2009, 09:39:27 PM »
You're thinking of "canon" with one n.

You're thinking of Kanon with one "UGUU!".

Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #183 on: April 25, 2009, 10:15:31 PM »
I think Hitsugaya is basically the Renji of captains. He lacks Renji's terrible win/loss ratio, but as a character he's probably peaked ages ago. Revealing Bankai is only slightly better than revealing your Resurrección (which almost invariably gets you killed shortly afterwards), outside of Ichigo it tends to relegate you to zero character progression land, where you'll never be anything more than whatever you were prior to displaying Bankai.

The fact that out of all revealed Bankais, only Hitsugaya's has a notable limitation (time) means he can be used constantly with successive power levels in a fight (although it usually amounts to him casting Bankai rather quickly) without worrying he'll just flatten the enemy and end it prematurely. He's basically another tool in the large cast of characters to be used when a particular niche needs filling, rather than any interesting element of his character making him worth seeing in a given moment. His personality ain't that great.

Honestly I thought about this in the past and I have to say that Hitsugaya probably plays a much weaker supporting role than Renji. However, I think that he would be a better character if they explored his relationship with Aizen's former lieutenant which would be relevant and interesting to the main plot and past transgressions that occurred.

You are all right about the captains becoming dead weights and the series starting to not make any sense. When the series first started it was a good series because it was raw and kubo tite pulled no punches. If a character was weak they would get the shit beat out of them and completely owned. I don't mind people coming to save the day, or surprise twists being hidden in the plot that make sense of why a character is still alive when an attack certainly should have killed him. But utilizing the Super Saiyan concept is always cliché and never a good thing outside of DBZ.

While the Super Saiyan concept is of course borrowed from something else, you will always be in the shadow of it if you try to duplicate it in your series. Main characters probably shouldn't die too quickly, but they can't just become strong out of nowhere.

Ikkaku (bald lieutenant) is the perfect example. He only uses his Bankai when none of his teammates are looking. He has a good reason for getting owned and it's a sensible reason for why we rarely see his Bankai in action. It is definitely a ticking time bomb that anyone would be interested to see how it turns out. I am sure Kenpachi would beat him senseless on the spot if he knew that this was the case.

Speaking of Kenpachi, where is he again?

Wasn't he in Las Noches?

Last time I saw him I think he defeated Noira.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:17:19 PM by furuoshiki »
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Offline zherok

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #184 on: April 25, 2009, 10:41:07 PM »
Honestly I thought about this in the past and I have to say that Hitsugaya probably plays a much weaker supporting role than Renji. However, I think that he would be a better character if they explored his relationship with Aizen's former lieutenant which would be relevant and interesting to the main plot and past transgressions that occurred.
I'm not sure that's a bad thing, seeing as Renji's role is to get his ass kicked to elevate the badassness of whatever villain he's fighting. I dunno if his relationship with Momo would go anywhere, she seemed ridiculously shallow as a character (she's spent the majority of her screentime in perpetual lockup or hysterics).

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Ikkaku (bald lieutenant) is the perfect example. He only uses his Bankai when none of his teammates are looking. He has a good reason for getting owned and it's a sensible reason for why we rarely see his Bankai in action. It is definitely a ticking time bomb that anyone would be interested to see how it turns out. I am sure Kenpachi would beat him senseless on the spot if he knew that this was the case.
It might be rooted in a sort of understandable logic, but it's pretty arbitrary, and it allows a sort of Renji-ification of Ikkaku. We know he's got X amount of power, but he won't use part of it, so that's an excuse why he got beaten by Y character, but it gives him space to kick someone else's ass or whatever later, since we know he's got it.

The greater problem is a lack of development. Renji at this point is a tool, literally and figuratively. His role is to get his ass kicked. He's not changed or grown as a character for ages, and he's only used to get his ass kicked. And this happens to other characters as well, particularly with having Bankai. It's an outer limit (at least not without going down another path like Ichigo/Vaizards, Aizen, etc.) for Shinigami, and once you get it, it defines what your character can do and that's all they'll ever be able to do. So Renji gets his ass kicked constantly, Ikkaku effectively tries to always pull his punches, and Hitsugaya is the stock captain for pretty much anything involving the real world and so forth. They stop being characters and become more like props just to have fights. But since you know all the moves on their side it gets boring.

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Last time I saw him I think he defeated Noira.
Yeah, think so. Standing around in the desert. Same with Kurotsuchi I think too, although I guess they opened Syzael's lab or something? And there's the fourth captain sorta hanging out too I guess.

Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #185 on: April 27, 2009, 01:02:01 PM »
Standing around in the Desert when your teammates on earth need you.

You would think that Kurotsuchi Mayuri the great scientist would have figured a way to get his make-up wearing, candy ass back to earth so they can at least fight on an even level with the Arrancar invaders.

Or is this divide and conquer attack something that Yamamoto devised to take down Aizen? Either way when you are done eliminating the enemy in front of you it's time to lend friends a helping hand. Such as Hitsugaya who is currently getting fully owned by a not-so bimbo-ish big breasted woman.
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Offline zherok

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #186 on: April 27, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »
Aren't they blocked somehow? I seem to recall a reason they're standing around. As in they probably can't open a gargantua or whatever themselves. Kurotsuchi might be expected to, but at the same time he's probably primarily there to gather stuff anyway, plus he was the only Captain left there that had something to do, since he found Syzael's lab. The other three are just shooting the breeze.

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Or is this divide and conquer attack something that Yamamoto devised to take down Aizen?
Probably. And it not being very clever would just reinforce my view of it being his plan. Particularly in light of the anime only new captain arc, retarded strategies that rely on the ineffectiveness of his squads to work together and assuming Ichigo will sort it all out in the end in spite, and in the case of that arc, BECAUSE of their ineptitude seem par for the course.

Offline Pzc

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #187 on: April 27, 2009, 02:09:42 PM »
Kurotsuchi Mayuri said that they can't open a garuganta
back to earth since Urahara Kisuke is the only shinigami
who have figured out how to do that. So they're trapped.

Edit: it's in chapter 314.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2009, 02:16:16 PM by Pzc »
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Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #188 on: April 28, 2009, 03:29:51 AM »
In the end I am wondering if Yamamoto is stronger than Ichigo. Because Ichigo cannot control his power and little to no knowledge of kidou control I think that Yamamoto still might be able to win.

His reiatsu is awesome despite his age and he can take down a Menos with just the flick of a finger (similar to Isshin Kurosaki AKA dad of the year).

I think that the main reason Aizen ran away is because he knew that either Yamamoto was too strong to defeat or there is an even stronger entity behind Yamamoto. (Is this being "GOD"? the guy inside the 46th chamber or whatever?)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 03:31:53 AM by furuoshiki »
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Offline zherok

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #189 on: April 28, 2009, 03:51:24 AM »
There's no indication that Yamamoto has any significant control of kido either though, and it's certainly not a requirement to be a captain; most of them don't demonstrate any practical use of it. Ichigo might be notable in the fact that he has absolutely no training in any form of kido, but I doubt it's Yamamoto's strong point either.

I wouldn't mind if Yamamoto bit it, honestly. He's not that interesting. He's terribly vague most of the time, and he does a pretty shitty job at encouraging squadron cohesion. He's pretty much a failure as far as leaders are concerned. Maybe he's really powerful, but other than imply it there's not much to go on.

I could totally see him go out Hokage style though...

Offline dankles

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #190 on: April 28, 2009, 04:08:18 PM »
Ichigo will turn back into that evil hallow 2nd form again then kill everyone and the story will end.

Thats a prophecy from urs truly   8)

Offline dankles

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #191 on: April 28, 2009, 04:10:00 PM »
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Offline altlavista

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #192 on: April 28, 2009, 05:26:47 PM »
the bleach manga is getting really weird, Yami as espada 0? o_O they should have just kept him as a weakass (to me Yami should not be the strongest espada, he's not pwnsome enough xD) and Ulquiorra loves Inoue or something? wtf? o_O

i believe that ulquiorra does not love anybody. i think he was just curious about why do humans omit logic sometimes :) and what is that unknown element - heart. and out of curiosity he tried to understand. thus, he is what he became (dead body? ash? :D)... humanized hollow? :D

Offline mgz

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #193 on: April 28, 2009, 06:47:32 PM »
i still dont get why he couldnt understand the concept of a soul, arent hollows and shinigami in general personifications of souls

Offline Steve Basnof

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #194 on: April 28, 2009, 10:15:05 PM »
Ichigo will turn back into that evil hallow 2nd form again then kill everyone and the story will end.

Thats a prophecy from urs truly   8)

I will politely clap for the show if that happens. :)

i still dont get why he couldnt understand the concept of a soul, arent hollows and shinigami in general personifications of souls

What are you talking about? I don't know what translation you're reading of the manga but I'm sure you're getting caught up in the alternate meanings of English words being used to attempt to express what is said in Japanese. In the scanlation I'm reading Ulquiorra is talking about the human "heart", not the "soul". I think reading a translation that uses the word 'heart' would make things make a lot more sense to you.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-354/page001.html

Offline altlavista

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #195 on: April 29, 2009, 08:21:35 AM »
What are you talking about? I don't know what translation you're reading of the manga but I'm sure you're getting caught up in the alternate meanings of English words being used to attempt to express what is said in Japanese. In the scanlation I'm reading Ulquiorra is talking about the human "heart", not the "soul". I think reading a translation that uses the word 'heart' would make things make a lot more sense to you.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-354/page001.html

yes, exactly! it's the heart, the source of emotions and all that stuff. and hollows (that probably means arrancars too) are driven only by hatred/loneliness (so no tender feelings) and so cannot understand what it is to be a human...

Offline Penthero

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #196 on: April 29, 2009, 01:48:24 PM »
What are you talking about? I don't know what translation you're reading of the manga but I'm sure you're getting caught up in the alternate meanings of English words being used to attempt to express what is said in Japanese. In the scanlation I'm reading Ulquiorra is talking about the human "heart", not the "soul". I think reading a translation that uses the word 'heart' would make things make a lot more sense to you.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-354/page001.html

yes, exactly! it's the heart, the source of emotions and all that stuff. and hollows (that probably means arrancars too) are driven only by hatred/loneliness (so no tender feelings) and so cannot understand what it is to be a human...

But doesn't hollows come from humans from the beginning?
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Offline zherok

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #197 on: April 29, 2009, 02:02:08 PM »
But doesn't hollows come from humans from the beginning?
They're the souls of humans who've dwelled too long on negative emotions or something. Also, assuming the author hasn't forgotten, all higher forms of hollow are actually collections of these souls. If any one of them retains it's personality, it can continue to grow into the greater forms/sidestep into an arrancar.

Offline Nikran

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #198 on: April 29, 2009, 02:36:38 PM »
They're the souls of humans who've dwelled too long on negative emotions or something. Also, assuming the author hasn't forgotten, all higher forms of hollow are actually collections of these souls. If any one of them retains it's personality, it can continue to grow into the greater forms/sidestep into an arrancar.

Hmm, with the current state of this manga i think the author prolly ditched the original course it was taking. now we are heading into chaotic and retarded territory, so be prepaired =P

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Offline mgz

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Re: Bleach Manga Discussion
« Reply #199 on: April 29, 2009, 02:38:46 PM »
Ichigo will turn back into that evil hallow 2nd form again then kill everyone and the story will end.

Thats a prophecy from urs truly   8)

I will politely clap for the show if that happens. :)

i still dont get why he couldnt understand the concept of a soul, arent hollows and shinigami in general personifications of souls


What are you talking about? I don't know what translation you're reading of the manga but I'm sure you're getting caught up in the alternate meanings of English words being used to attempt to express what is said in Japanese. In the scanlation I'm reading Ulquiorra is talking about the human "heart", not the "soul". I think reading a translation that uses the word 'heart' would make things make a lot more sense to you.

http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-354/page001.html
memory fail that  was all, lol coulda sworn orihime had said souls were connected but hearts connected works too, in the context of my memory either one works.

And if he ripped her chest open yes there would be heart, because heart = organ in the human body she should have told him that she meant thoughts/feelings maybe then he wouldnt have been confused
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 06:44:54 PM by mgz »