Author Topic: My External HD died X(  (Read 5605 times)

Offline fohfoh

  • Member
  • Posts: 12031
  • Mod AznV~ We don't call it "Live Action"
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2008, 11:07:29 PM »
I have RAID as well on my mobo... but what does RAID actually do? Seriously, I've never bothered to look it up.

Here: http://tinyurl.com/9jgh4v
I love when people do that  :D

To sum it up, it gives you redundant storage (with RAID 5 and 6). So you can lose a drive but none of the data stored on it. Though you pay for redundancy with storage space on the drives, 3 drive RAID 5 can only use 2/3 of the totally storage capacity of the 3 drives. The more drives in that RAID though the smaller that fraction becomes.

I've always equated it to more of a "shadow" instead of a "reflection". Whereas the reflection is a full copy of the file, a shadow is only the basic shape of the file. It can basically do what the reflection can do, but requires less space to recover lost data.

So for instance, you have 2 puzzles.

First one: "reflection"
You have 2 copies of the puzzle. 1 copy is lost, use copy 2 to make a new copy when you replace the storage.

Second one: "Shadow" (Raid... ish)
You have 1 puzzle, but the pieces are scattered across several storage components. A "picture" is taken of the puzzle and placed in a special location. When a storage component is lost, a couple pieces are lost. But using the picture, we can find out what pieces we lost and replace them quickly without the use of external forces?
This is your home now. So take advantage of everything here, except me.

Offline boxer4

  • Member
  • Posts: 280
  • Yes, EJ205
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2008, 07:12:49 PM »
I think a long time ago I posted about external disks...it seems that more and more people think they are bad news compared to the longevity of internally mounted disks?

Okay, the following is a bit choppy, because I'm trying to describe a few random concepts.  Sorry about this:


RAID1 is easier to understand as it's a simple copy of the data.  If one disk dies, we know the other contains an exact copy.  I rarely use RAID1 because of its storage efficiency, described later.

My most recent failure was a Hitachi P7K500 500G disk.  It just totally would no longer spin up.  I had the disk for 4 weeks, fortunately everything on it was redundant (in two ways -- it's part of a 4-disk Linux Software RAID5 as well as the RAID5 being a copy of another RAID5 array that will be replaced by the former).  The recovery of the affected array was fairly smooth -- data on it was still totally accessible as if nothing happened, and the "rebuilding" of the array when I insert the replacement disk was likewise transparent minus the performance hit.

RAID5/6 Parity is a weird concept, it requires a bit of math knowledge to understand.  The function "XOR" is quite a weird function as if you change any one input, the output will change like two 3-way switches on a light bulb.  In fact the 3-way switches work with a lamp is pretty much a great metaphor as to how the "XOR" function works.

Let's say we have two 3 way switches and a lamp and nothing is obscured from view (obscured will be defined as the "broken" phase, as if we "lost" data).  Because of the special property of these 3 way switches, flipping any one switch will change the light.  The two switches are "data" and the light bulb is "Parity" - metadata computed from the switch "data".  In a normal working system we can program the switches any way we want, that is our "data".  The lamp lights or turns off depending on how we set the switches.  Let's say that having both switches are set the same, both up or both down, will turn on the light.

Now lets say we have a "failure".  In this example we're not saying that the switch breaks or the lamp burns out as a "failure" but rather define it as the switch or light bulb being obscured from view.   Here's the magic: If we see the lamp is off, and switch 2 is in the "up" state, and we can't see (as in we lost data) switch 1.  Do we have enough data from this system to know whether switch 1 was "up" or "down"?  By the above 3-way system, by golly we do know if switch 1 was "down" because the light is off, without looking at the switch -- we were able to recover the state of the switch based on data we could see.

On a corollary to this, if the lamp is 'on' and we can't see either switch 1 or switch 2, can we predict what the status of the two switches?  In this case we lost data.  We know that both switches must be either both up or both down, but there's no way to tell which way they are for certain.

RAID3 is most like this example.  RAID5 works similarly at a different level, but is a bit different as the switches and lights are spread across the disks.  And just like a real 3-disk RAID 5 following the 'corollary' case of the light and switches, if two disks die, we lose data.

The major differences between using RAID1 vs RAID5 is storage efficiency.  In RAID1 we lose 50% capacity to redundancy (one whole disk spent on copying another).  RAID5 is (N-1)/N efficiency where in a 3- disk system we lose 33% of our total disk space to redundancy information

While it seems like raising N to a large number will make our efficiency asymptotically reach 100%, realize the risk that if one disk dies in a RAID5, we've lost redundancy and if a second disk breaks, we lost data on the whole array.  As the number of disks increases, the chance of one of the disks breaking increases.  As the size of disks go up and reliability of disks do not change, the current trend is that the max number of disks in the array is coming down, forcing us to use less storage efficient arrays.

Offline Pigeon

  • Member
  • Posts: 1722
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2008, 10:02:30 PM »
(in two ways -- it's part of a 4-disk Linux Software RAID5 as well as the RAID5 being a copy of another RAID5 array that will be replaced by the former)
wait wat

please introduce yourself to raid6.

If you're already fucking around with linux mdraid, raid6 is a gimme. Your array would be a more reliable and much better performing if you used raid6.

Offline boxer4

  • Member
  • Posts: 280
  • Yes, EJ205
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2008, 11:28:48 PM »
please introduce yourself to raid6.

If you're already fucking around with linux mdraid, raid6 is a gimme. Your array would be a more reliable and much better performing if you used raid6.
Eh.  As stated before, storage efficiency (storage available over total storage)is a problem.  And for low numbers of disks, it's not there for RAID6 for me.  As the number of disks increases, power consumption and noise also increases, and thus RAID6 is not an option for me.

I do not want more than 4 disks running.  At 4 disk RAID6, it's basically no better in storage efficiency than RAID1 (50%).  At RAID5, 4 disks give 75% storage efficiency, a significant improvement over 3-disk RAID5 at 66%.  If I could stand running a 6-8 disk array, RAID6 would obviously be a better answer, but I couldn't get myself to run that many disks 24/7 in my house.

Offline DesoNoto

  • Member
  • Posts: 689
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2009, 02:36:15 AM »
I can only remember having one HDD die on me....but that was when I first started torrenting so it wasn't really that tough to get everything again. =P

Offline HollowLord

  • Member
  • Posts: 58
  • Lord of all hollows
Re: My External HD died X(
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2009, 02:00:26 AM »
I've had my 200gb maxtor IDE drive now for as long as I own my computer(soon to be 4 years) I have never had any trouble in either of my computers p3 or p4 systems with the hard drives going bad. I have only used maxtor for IDE so some of you might be shocked. Within the last year I have been using two 500gig Hitachi Easy Drives because they were $99 a piece at best buy. The Easy Drives(usb) run about 30 degrees farenheit hotter than my internal maxtor but so far I have had no hardware problems or failures due to craftsmanship. About six months ago, however, I stupidly had my usb drive sitting on top of my case, knocked it over where it fell about 14 inches onto my keyboard and died. I was pissed. Immediately I went out and bought another but after much thinking I emailed Hitachi and suprisingly they seemed to agree with me that it should not have ceased functioning and I was able to successfully RMA it for a brand new one. I did lose over 200gigs of downloaded stuff but lesson learned. I welded up a little steel cradle for the Hard Drive that all my anime is on and bolted it fast to the wall so no more shenanigans can happen with it falling. My second Easy Drive I keep ON THE DESK next to my computer happily pinned between the case and the monitor so no falling over will occur there either. In the future, I will not be buying any drives over 500gig capacity anymore, not because they fail more often but because it's too much data to entrust to one unit should it happen to fail. I have no DVD's and it would be a royal pain in the ass to burn all my stuff anyway. Now, on the other hand, my mother has gone through about 4 IDE HDD's from 3 different companies in her computer in under 2 years. I only have one case fan operating at the moment but I keep the side off because it's only a shitty little 60mm fan in the back if you don't count the ones in the PSU. She had two small fans but her case was in an enclosed cubby on her desk(stupid setup) I blame it on heat. My internal drive, so I have recently discovered operates around 90 degrees farenheit while the two external USB drives operate at 120. No noise, no burps or screeching, no issues and not only is my cooling barely adequate but my room is very dusty so I don't know how all this stuff is working. I also run my computer fully through the battery supplied sockets of my UPS so maybe that's why they've survived. Can't say the same for my original power supply which detonated after about a year of use in a fiery shower of blue sparks. Saved the system thankfully due to the fail safe but I guess I'd have to say that whatever is going to fail will fail and you never really know which part it will be. I'm done rambling now.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 02:02:03 AM by HollowLord »
Show me your form, truth, and regret. I shall cleanse you from this world!