Gaza showdown

[Pharismo]

Hamas isn't a terrorist group but a government and they won a democratic election without fraud. Hamas has being working with the civils better them Fatah when were the government and thats the reason they won the election. Hamas aren't terrorist but  a group that don't want to be colonized by Israel, so they are just a resistance group that would appear once Israel started the war on middle east. People just believes on what they show on TV, they don't try to look for better informations on internet (besides on manipulated news). Sirius before calling something as terrorist please try to discover what happened who started the war and what is the history behind it. Before ingland colonization arabs from all  believes were living at peace, thats the truth.

You can't argue with people that doesn't look for the history behind the war and the reason from both sides. Israel has killed many innocents and made over 3millions of Palestine's to leave they're land and still aren't called as terrorists because USA sells weapons for them and support them.
If you can't fight a war with the way of a army you fight on the way of guerrillas.

Read this book: Hamas: A Beginner's Guide nbefore calling Hamas a terrorist group since they are the same as Iraq resistance forces. They don't accept the colonization and thats why they hate occidentals since they support Israel.
http://www.amazon.com/Hamas-Beginners-Guide-Khaled-Hroub/dp/0745325912 (i bought it cheaper from a mall)
Its a good book and tells the history before Hamas was created and what led to the creation of Hamas. Read it and decide if they are terrorist or just resistence force.

[vicious796]

With your common sympathy toward non-Western groups, it doesn't surprise me that you would like to claim that terrorism is seperate from politics. Here's the simple Foxworthy run down for you:

If you launch rockets without any aim other than to kill as many civilians as possible (but hey, you might hit a few soldiers in that elementary school), you might be a terrorist.

If you hide among civilians to make it look like a recognized nation is slaughtering them, you might be a terrorist.

If your radical religious beliefs make it so you declare a "Holy War" against an entire race of people, you might be a terrorist.



Look Phar, you say we don't do any research beyond our own televisions blah blah blah. The problem is, for you, that we do. I've looked up Khaled Hroub and read a few press releases of his and you know what he talks about?

How the west is terrified of a unified Palestine. How we were astounded that a democratic vote lead to an organized government that was politically based and not a violent religous group. We didn't want a group to demand borders on Israel.

What have they become since their elections in 2006? Are they having the meetings on the international scale Hroub spoke of?

NO, they're not. They're firing rockets into school yards like a militant religous group. I think the best article I found he wrote before this happened.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-middle_east_politics/hamas_3982.jsp

Have a read.

[Semnae]

Hamas isn't a terrorist group but a government and they won a democratic election without fraud.

I stopped recognizing Gaza as having a legitimate government when Hamas staged a coup and slaughtered the only major opposition party.

[AceHigh]

Hamas isn't a terrorist group but a government and they won a democratic election without fraud.

Well, I guess it settles it. When people in Gaza democratically elect and support a terrorist organisation, then they are guilty, not innocent. In other words they brought the bombing upon themselves.

Hamas has being working with the civils better then Fatah when were the government and thats the reason they won the election.

Hitler gave hope to people and won the election too. Your point was?

Hamas aren't terrorist but  a group that don't want to be colonized by Israel, so they are just a resistance group that would appear once Israel started the war on middle east.

Do you know the definition of terrorism? Firing rockets into civilian population is not resistance, it's terrorism. Hence, they are terrorists.

Before england colonization arabs from all  believes were living at peace, thats the truth.

Oh, like the 1660 massacre of jews by the Ottomans in Safed and Jerusalem?
Or the fact that jews had status as dhimmis and had to pay tax because they were not muslim?

You can't argue with people that doesn't look for the history behind the war and the reason from both sides.

I know, horrible that people all forgot about the name "Judea", care to learn history a bit more yourself? If you will insist on it, I will give you the time line of Judea/SyriaPalestina/Israel ownership. Trust me, it has never ever belonged to the squatters that call themselves Palestinians. In truth Philistines disappeared as an ethnic group in the middle of 700 years BC.

Israel has killed many innocents and made over 3millions of Palestine's to leave they're land and still aren't called as terrorists because USA sells weapons for them and support them.

So if a dude points AK47 at you and shoots you while he hold a woman as a human shield, you will not fire back? Here is one question, did any of the Hamas had the balls to fight Israeli soldiers in the outskirts of the city? The answer you are looking for is "NO". They were sitting in the middle of the city knowing that it would cause severe civilian casualties. Actually they were hoping for casualties so that they can get the sympathy of the world. Very immoral and cynical strategy, but it worked to some degree.

If you can't fight a war with the way of a army you fight on the way of guerrillas and terrorists.

Fixed

Read this book: Hamas: A Beginner's Guide

Let me guess, "Chapter 4: how to make your own home made rocked, next chapter we will cover how to fill the inside of your jacket with explosives." 

[Pigeon]

Read this book: Hamas: A Beginner's Guide

Read this book:

[SpeedKills]

The reason that Hamas started firing rockets in the first place is because Israel did not lift their blockade.  A blockade is a declaration of war, to most countries and people.

The whole thing is about the battle over property rights.  It's not really about anything else.  If you look at the core of it, it's property rights.  And Israel as a country has no right to claim property that belongs to individuals.

Israel makes me sick, and it makes me even sicker that they're doing this with our weapons.

I'm not saying Hamas is better or anything, but for Christ's sake, does anyone look at actual facts anymore?  Or do you just get your opinion and try to support it with B.S.?

[AceHigh]

The reason that Hamas started firing rockets in the first place is because Israel did not lift their blockade.  A blockade is a declaration of war, to most countries and people.

Blockade is not the declaration of war. Besides they only closed borders. That being said I have seen Norwegian - Russian border when I was in the north. There were barbed wires, fences, outposts, many kilometers of "no man's land" on their side of the border and then they have enough battalions just behind the border to wipe out all our forces if allies do not support us. Does that mean a declaration of war? No it doesn't.

A country has a right to set any kind of wall on the border they want and it is their right to make any policy they want concerning crossing it. Basically all countries have everything ranging from open borders and policies like Schengen Agreement, Visa policies and a tightly closed border like Israel/Gaza and N Korea/S Korea. It is their right and it is not a declaration of war, just usually cold war and that is not a war.

Besides Gaza is free to use Egyptian border.... oh wait, Egyptian tightly closed it too because they don't want Hamas terrorist flooding their country either.

The whole thing is about the battle over property rights.  It's not really about anything else.  If you look at the core of it, it's property rights.  And Israel as a country has no right to claim property that belongs to individuals.

Well, it doesn't matter if your house is yours, it is standing on the government controlled soil. This is a practice in all countries in the world and I don't see anyone claiming the property to be not controlled by the government except that one episode of Family Guy where Peter created new country "Petoria".

[SpeedKills]

Blockade is not the declaration of war. Besides they only closed borders. That being said I have seen Norwegian - Russian border when I was in the north. There were barbed wires, fences, outposts, many kilometers of "no man's land" on their side of the border and then they have enough battalions just behind the border to wipe out all our forces if allies do not support us. Does that mean a declaration of war? No it doesn't.

A country has a right to set any kind of wall on the border they want and it is their right to make any policy they want concerning crossing it. Basically all countries have everything ranging from open borders and policies like Schengen Agreement, Visa policies and a tightly closed border like Israel/Gaza and N Korea/S Korea. It is their right and it is not a declaration of war, just usually cold war and that is not a war.

Pearl Harbor was provoked in part by an trade freeze... I guess what I'm saying is that it's not like Hamas just blatantly started attacking Israel.  Technically the cease-fire never started because Israel never honored their end of the bargain.

Using the Egyptian border is pretty much impossible, from what I've heard.

Also, those assholes are using white phosphorous, which is a war crime in the context they're using it (not supposed to be used near civillian populations).  That right there is a war crime in itself, lol.  They must have learned from us :p

Well, it doesn't matter if your house is yours, it is standing on the government controlled soil. This is a practice in all countries in the world and I don't see anyone claiming the property to be not controlled by the government except that one episode of Family Guy where Peter created new country "Petoria".

I was thinking more what we did to the Native Americans, where we basically took over a country and then claimed their land was ours (The state land is supposed to be owned by both Jews and Arabs, but the Jews claimed that since they own the state, they own the state's property).

There's a great interview about this issue from a Libertarian perspective (Read: Rational, lol).

http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/01/26/dean-ahmad-2/

Honestly, I think just the fact that they're killing a ridiculous amount of civilians is reason enough to condemn the hell out of Israel.  50% of Gazans are children, eh?

And I think anyone can tell you that the way to get rid of extremism isn't to provoke them with violence by trying to eradicate them.



And yeah, I love that episode of Family Guy :p

EDIT:  Oh yeah, also, Israel killed two people in Gaza before the first rocket attacks even started.

[AceHigh]

Using the Egyptian border is pretty much impossible, from what I've heard.

Yes, Egyptians will not hesitate to shoot civilians trying to run to Egypt and the border is locked tight. Following your logic they declared war on Gaza as well.

Also, those assholes are using white phosphorous, which is a war crime in the context they're using it (not supposed to be used near civillian populations).  That right there is a war crime in itself, lol.  They must have learned from us :p

Honestly I never understood that myself. I have read a lot of rules of war and I am proud to say I have the knowledge of what kind of weapons are banned from use (like napalm) or have restricted use (12.7mm explosive rounds only to be used against vehicles and materiel, not people). So I always wondered what kind of idiotic general ordered a smokescreen on the urban location when there are so many cameras filming the war. That is just asking for a tribunal.

I was thinking more what we did to the Native Americans, where we basically took over a country and then claimed their land was ours (The state land is supposed to be owned by both Jews and Arabs, but the Arabs invaded Israel in 1967, then lost the war and the territories they had fair and square.

Fixed.

Honestly, I think just the fact that they're killing a ridiculous amount of civilians is reason enough to condemn the hell out of Israel.  50% of Gazans are children, eh?

Exactly why HAMAS are the real terrorists and cowards. They hide among their women and children instead of having the balls to make a stand against Israeli army like real men. When you fire rockets from the backyard of your house, then you should not be surprised that your house with your family inside will be bombed.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, also, Israel killed two people in Gaza before the first rocket attacks even started.

Also Hamas captured Israeli soldiers before that happened.

[SpeedKills]

But the civilians who live there aren't even allowed to flee or anything... how can that be moral in any way?

I concede that I don't know a whole hell of a lot about Israeli history, because I always just though of them as one of America's spoiled children :p

They also hit a UN embassy or something, didn't they?  Why is no one clamping down on all that shit?

And i guess you could keep going back for hundreds of years if I said, "well, Israel did THIS before Hamas did THAT". lol

[AceHigh]

But the civilians who live there aren't even allowed to flee or anything... how can that be moral in any way?

Good question. Very good one I admit. My question is why Egypt - who is supporting Palestinians not allowing refugees into the city? The only theory is that countries surrounding Israel want people in Gaza to be there and be slaughtered so that they can have a casus belli to attack Israel. They have it now and if the support of Israel will drop, then they will attack as soon as they have world wide support against Israel. It's a cynical and heartless strategy, but a very good one as well.

I concede that I don't know a whole hell of a lot about Israeli history, because I always just though of them as one of America's spoiled children :p

Try Great Britain and France. USA became a very close ally only later in the history.

And i guess you could keep going back for hundreds of years if I said, "well, Israel did THIS before Hamas did THAT". lol

Exactly, that is why this war is not about who is right and who is wrong, but about who is strongest and who will survive.

[SpeedKills]

What sucks is that, living in America, you're either ridiculously pro-Israel, or you're called an anti-Semite because you're ridiculously anti-Israel..

For once, I wish the US would be a dick and put each side in a corner...  But we continue to finance Israel and make no official condemnation of it.

[relic2279]

The US gives money to it's allies. Enemies of our enemies are our friends. Iran as well as other countries like Sudan give money to the Hamas. Iran may not be our enemy at this point, but they are close enough.

Citation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Funding

And they more then likely funnel weapons to them etc. I don't doubt, and it would be idiotic to believe they are not also getting illegally funding from other anti-western fronts. You have to understand, these people don't want peace. They want the death of the western culture. It's in their charter. They want to live in the stone age for all intents and purposes.

I am a bleeding heart liberal leftist, and even I won't support the Hamas. I am not pro-jewish, and I am not anti-muslim. I am pro-common sense.

[SpeedKills]

Damn, didn't know all that...

I always try to find a rational side to be on, but in this case, I think I'd rather they both just explode, lol.

[AceHigh]

Personally I am pro Israel because no matter how they act, they are our first line of defence. I am talking about Europe of course, second line would be Greece I believe. They are the only European country without the freedom of religion. No matter how wrong this seems ideally, these two countries do keep the muslim world at bay. Basically Israel is putting it's citizens at risk and pay the price of our western culture with their blood. If there is anything we can do to give them support, we should do so. It is a cruel and draconian reality.

However historically when we did not have enough defences and buffer zones against the spread of Islam it ended with loosing Europe's biggest city at the time, a jewel of a metropolis called Constantinople. Now it is called Istanbul and has a freaking crescent on rooftops. If I would have the power, I would obliterate the Turkey, push them back and retake what is ours.

That being said I am sympathetic with Jews who have exactly the same goal. I wonder why they called their country "Israel" instead of Judea though.

[sdedalus83]

That being said I am sympathetic with Jews who have exactly the same goal. I wonder why they called their country "Israel" instead of Judea though.

Judea is a region within the promised land, while Israel is the whole thing.

[AceHigh]

The whole thing? That explains the motivation 

[lx4]

I wonder why they called their country "Israel" instead of Judea though.

The Jews still call Judea, Judea. The rest of the world has just chosen to call it the West Bank for some reason.

[furuoshiki]

I think both Jews and Arab Muslims should both just get the fuck out. Now this will never happen, but let's examine why that would make sense:

1) According to the Hebrew speaking Semite (now Ashkenazic/Sephardic blood line) tradition, they have not yet been allowed formal access back into Zion or the Promised Land on Earth. I am assuming the promised land is the motherland, known today as Israel.

Maybe I am wrong but didn't Moses say that the Jewish people were effectively banned from the Promised Land until the second coming of Christ? Also you would be surprised at how many Jews are not Zionists because of their belief that they are still a wandering people.

2) Arab Muslims don't belong in Jerusalem. Now this is different for the Arab Christians. Jerusalem is clearly a vital city of importance for Christians and Jews. To my knowledge it has minor negligible significance for Muslims. You don't see Christians making communities and fusses in Mecca, well we expect the same sort of reverence and respect for our Holy city.

3) Load up the place with American ex-patriot Christians. Apparently since this is all about Power why don't we just stop the charade in making believe that we care about what happens to the Jews and just be honest with ourselves? We want the land to counter-balance Russian and Middle Eastern State's power. I mean personally I am interested in making a compromise to where Arab Muslims, Christians and Jews can live in the land in peace. But the national opinion considers that an impossibility. Just cut the bull and make the space a UN protectorate zone and call it a day. Put the Jews in New York (Hey we're over-populated but if it will prevent Nuclear War, we've got plenty of space...) and put the Arab-Muslims in Muslim theocratic nations.

Arab Christians and any other Christians can stay but Muslims and Jews have to get the fuck out. I feel like we are the big boy in the playground breaking up a fight between two shrimps. This is so fucking ridiculous I still can't believe we are about to have a Nuclear War over this shit.

Edit - Today I talked about it in Philosophy class and my philosophy professor talked about the futility of any hope residing in bringing in an objective mediator, because either side will complain they would be "ignorant" of the facts. Well folks HELLO! In order to successfully do the "Veil of ignorance" and start negotiations from the "Original Position" you have to be sort of IN THE DARK AND UNBIASED.

Get the Dalai Lama and Kofi Anan or SOME SHIT and just GET TO WORK. The Dalai Lama doesn't give a shit about US power, Israelis or Muslims. They only carry biased interests towards their part of the globe. Just inform some educated PhD group on the situation (make it a mixed bag, an argentinian doctor, malaysian lawyer, honduran biologist, etc...) and get an unaffiliated consensus. There has got to be someone qualified in the world to deliver arbitration yet unbiased about the situation enough to make the dealings as objective as possible.

Instead of rockets firing we need to see some human genome projects firing up. MAKE IT SCIENTIFIC AND LEGITIMATE. DO SOMETHING. Don't just BLOW SHIT UP! This goes for Israel and Hamas. The two governments are both egotistical and stupid. And the people are suffering for it.

[sdedalus83]

I wonder why they called their country "Israel" instead of Judea though.

The Jews still call Judea, Judea. The rest of the world has just chosen to call it the West Bank for some reason.

Mainly because they feel a bit squicky about calling a Palestinian territory what essentially amounts to "Jew Land" in ancient Roman.