Discussion Forums > Politics
Gaza showdown
SpeedKills:
The reason that Hamas started firing rockets in the first place is because Israel did not lift their blockade. A blockade is a declaration of war, to most countries and people.
The whole thing is about the battle over property rights. It's not really about anything else. If you look at the core of it, it's property rights. And Israel as a country has no right to claim property that belongs to individuals.
Israel makes me sick, and it makes me even sicker that they're doing this with our weapons.
I'm not saying Hamas is better or anything, but for Christ's sake, does anyone look at actual facts anymore? Or do you just get your opinion and try to support it with B.S.?
AceHigh:
--- Quote from: SpeedKills on January 30, 2009, 06:59:46 PM ---The reason that Hamas started firing rockets in the first place is because Israel did not lift their blockade. A blockade is a declaration of war, to most countries and people.
--- End quote ---
Blockade is not the declaration of war. Besides they only closed borders. That being said I have seen Norwegian - Russian border when I was in the north. There were barbed wires, fences, outposts, many kilometers of "no man's land" on their side of the border and then they have enough battalions just behind the border to wipe out all our forces if allies do not support us. Does that mean a declaration of war? No it doesn't.
A country has a right to set any kind of wall on the border they want and it is their right to make any policy they want concerning crossing it. Basically all countries have everything ranging from open borders and policies like Schengen Agreement, Visa policies and a tightly closed border like Israel/Gaza and N Korea/S Korea. It is their right and it is not a declaration of war, just usually cold war and that is not a war.
Besides Gaza is free to use Egyptian border.... oh wait, Egyptian tightly closed it too because they don't want Hamas terrorist flooding their country either.
--- Quote ---The whole thing is about the battle over property rights. It's not really about anything else. If you look at the core of it, it's property rights. And Israel as a country has no right to claim property that belongs to individuals.
--- End quote ---
Well, it doesn't matter if your house is yours, it is standing on the government controlled soil. This is a practice in all countries in the world and I don't see anyone claiming the property to be not controlled by the government except that one episode of Family Guy where Peter created new country "Petoria".
SpeedKills:
--- Quote from: Dragoon AceHigh on January 30, 2009, 07:22:06 PM ---Blockade is not the declaration of war. Besides they only closed borders. That being said I have seen Norwegian - Russian border when I was in the north. There were barbed wires, fences, outposts, many kilometers of "no man's land" on their side of the border and then they have enough battalions just behind the border to wipe out all our forces if allies do not support us. Does that mean a declaration of war? No it doesn't.
A country has a right to set any kind of wall on the border they want and it is their right to make any policy they want concerning crossing it. Basically all countries have everything ranging from open borders and policies like Schengen Agreement, Visa policies and a tightly closed border like Israel/Gaza and N Korea/S Korea. It is their right and it is not a declaration of war, just usually cold war and that is not a war.
--- End quote ---
Pearl Harbor was provoked in part by an trade freeze... I guess what I'm saying is that it's not like Hamas just blatantly started attacking Israel. Technically the cease-fire never started because Israel never honored their end of the bargain.
Using the Egyptian border is pretty much impossible, from what I've heard.
Also, those assholes are using white phosphorous, which is a war crime in the context they're using it (not supposed to be used near civillian populations). That right there is a war crime in itself, lol. They must have learned from us :p
--- Quote ---Well, it doesn't matter if your house is yours, it is standing on the government controlled soil. This is a practice in all countries in the world and I don't see anyone claiming the property to be not controlled by the government except that one episode of Family Guy where Peter created new country "Petoria".
--- End quote ---
I was thinking more what we did to the Native Americans, where we basically took over a country and then claimed their land was ours (The state land is supposed to be owned by both Jews and Arabs, but the Jews claimed that since they own the state, they own the state's property).
There's a great interview about this issue from a Libertarian perspective (Read: Rational, lol).
http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/01/26/dean-ahmad-2/
Honestly, I think just the fact that they're killing a ridiculous amount of civilians is reason enough to condemn the hell out of Israel. 50% of Gazans are children, eh?
And I think anyone can tell you that the way to get rid of extremism isn't to provoke them with violence by trying to eradicate them.
And yeah, I love that episode of Family Guy :p
EDIT: Oh yeah, also, Israel killed two people in Gaza before the first rocket attacks even started.
AceHigh:
--- Quote from: SpeedKills on January 30, 2009, 07:36:02 PM ---Using the Egyptian border is pretty much impossible, from what I've heard.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Egyptians will not hesitate to shoot civilians trying to run to Egypt and the border is locked tight. Following your logic they declared war on Gaza as well.
--- Quote ---Also, those assholes are using white phosphorous, which is a war crime in the context they're using it (not supposed to be used near civillian populations). That right there is a war crime in itself, lol. They must have learned from us :p
--- End quote ---
Honestly I never understood that myself. I have read a lot of rules of war and I am proud to say I have the knowledge of what kind of weapons are banned from use (like napalm) or have restricted use (12.7mm explosive rounds only to be used against vehicles and materiel, not people). So I always wondered what kind of idiotic general ordered a smokescreen on the urban location when there are so many cameras filming the war. That is just asking for a tribunal.
--- Quote ---I was thinking more what we did to the Native Americans, where we basically took over a country and then claimed their land was ours (The state land is supposed to be owned by both Jews and Arabs, but the Arabs invaded Israel in 1967, then lost the war and the territories they had fair and square.
--- End quote ---
Fixed.
--- Quote ---Honestly, I think just the fact that they're killing a ridiculous amount of civilians is reason enough to condemn the hell out of Israel. 50% of Gazans are children, eh?
--- End quote ---
Exactly why HAMAS are the real terrorists and cowards. They hide among their women and children instead of having the balls to make a stand against Israeli army like real men. When you fire rockets from the backyard of your house, then you should not be surprised that your house with your family inside will be bombed.
--- Quote ---EDIT: Oh yeah, also, Israel killed two people in Gaza before the first rocket attacks even started.
--- End quote ---
Also Hamas captured Israeli soldiers before that happened.
SpeedKills:
But the civilians who live there aren't even allowed to flee or anything... how can that be moral in any way?
I concede that I don't know a whole hell of a lot about Israeli history, because I always just though of them as one of America's spoiled children :p
They also hit a UN embassy or something, didn't they? Why is no one clamping down on all that shit?
And i guess you could keep going back for hundreds of years if I said, "well, Israel did THIS before Hamas did THAT". lol
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