Author Topic: Gundam Discussion  (Read 12035 times)

Offline Pigeon

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2009, 02:56:44 PM »
I liked this aspect of UC; it makes it much richer and more interactive when people with the relevant technical knowledge (there was an earlier thread where they were discussing the feasibility of the space colony designs) come together to discuss these things and try to improve them. The other storyverses simply can't compare to this depth of detail.
Ok: It's just a TV show. They're allowed to take liberties with their designs, and they do. A lot of liberties. Whether it's metallurgical liberties, (no materials are strong enough to let mechs be as nimble as they are, and if there were materials strong enough, you're better off with non-human shapes.) scientific liberties, (AMBAC etc violating newton's laws of motion) and all of that's fine. But as long as you're making allowances for, "well, it's just a show, so it doesn't have to be realistic," none of it matters. Fantasy world a] isn't better than fantasy world b] because fantasy world a] is less (or more) fanciful than the other one.

It's still just a TV show with made up physics.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2009, 11:04:53 PM »
I liked the physics of the UC GUndam. Can't say much of the chemistry used to make the armor and such, but the reactors and beam weapons, while still fictional, were well done. I think Tomino put real thought into it, while Roddenberry did with Star Trek. Fiction yes, but science-fiction.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2009, 03:18:12 AM »
And that is why I took special care not to use the word realistic. I like it because it's detailed, well fleshed-out and coherent. I'm not saying they're possible in real life (heck, their assumption of the existence of the Minovsky particle already makes it impossible as far as I'm concerned), but when there are numbers available it makes discussion much more interesting because you can speculate less and compute more.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 11:16:04 AM by kureshii »

Offline Torador

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2009, 09:25:53 AM »
(other than the quality of animation...that's a moot point).

Just out of curiosity, were you suggesting here that Seed's animation was of high quality?

From reading this thread, I think I'm something of a rare breed - I like the older stuff, from UC and Wing all the way through to Seed. Destiny was poor in parts, but even it had its moments.

What I'm trying to say about Seed's animation is that many people seem to fall back on saying that the animation was really good. Controversially, I disagree. Seed's animation was high-def, digitally coloured and pin-sharp - but I thought it really lacking in soul, and grit. It's hard to define, but I find many visual elements of Seed quite soul-less, including the character design (there's an image floating around 4chan showing how similar all the characters actually look when you change their hairstyles).

In your post, and others in this thread, people have mentioned preferring the characters of certain series, and I think the problem with that is there is a danger of accruing too much of a character's "character" to the writing. The characters in each series are realised through a mix of the writing, design and animation; this is part of the science of animation (and it's the secret to the success of, for example, Wallace and Gromit, because all three elements work in unison in Aardman's work).

If you like Seed, and feel for the characters (note: FEEL for them, not merely LIKE them - obviously there's a difference), if you haven't seen it, watch Gundam 0080: War in the Pocket. That OVA is almost entirely about the characters, with sporadic mobile suit battles. It's about many things, but one of the main themes in it is that many Gundam fans would love to actually live in the Gundam Metaverse - well 0080 is about a normal boy who does, and loves it - at first - but then through various experiences is made to realise that evil comes in all shapes and sizes and is forced to accept the true horrors of war.

I don't want to knock Seed, because I sat through it and enjoyed it enough - but I will say that I remember very few specific moments of it, whereas the original Mobile Suit Gundam, or 08th MS Team, or 0083 throw up a lot more memories for me. I don't know if that's much of a review.

Certainly if you like animation, do watch 0083: Stardust Memories, especially if you're someone who has grown up more recently with Naruto and Gundam Seed. Watch an anime that typifies what things were like before digital colouring, when anime was still gritty and dirty. You might be thinking even now "well I've seen Death Note" but believe me, it was different.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 11:34:32 AM »
The visial component in SEED was its lowest point fallowed by a not so crafty rewrite of the one year war.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2009, 02:17:35 PM »
SEED: also the most noticeable use of repeated animation frames, recycled cels, and mindless mecha posing. While the animation is pretty decent for a relatively recent mecha series, it still can't hold a candle to hand-drawn Zeta and ZZ.

And Hisashi Hirai; oh god, I hate that guy's work. While I thought he did fine in Infinite Ryvius, it seems sometime before Gundam SEED he started using the same few moulds for character face shapes. The end result is uncanny character design similarity, as any one who has watched at least Gundam SEED, Fafner and Linebarrels of Iron might have noticed.

Well, to be fair to SEED, it is a pretty good mecha series for its time. If you cut off its relation to the rest of the Gundam franchise and evaluate it on its own merits it actually stands pretty firmly, though I can't really say the same for Destiny, which started flopping in the middle and completely floundered at the end.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 02:21:08 PM by kureshii »

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2009, 02:26:58 PM »
So how many times do you see something blowing up and the source of the destruction at the same time or even in the same scene?

Offline omegadragon

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2009, 03:35:20 PM »
just did not like SEED and SEED destiny, characters where boring, story was patchwork of other Gundam series (U.C) a quick example woul be Shin and Stellar going through the same thing as Kamille and Four, and the mecha battles which where just the same frames repeated time and time again, of course it happens in other series, but SEED and destiny just took the piss.



oh and all bow down to the Nu Gundam and the Hi-ν Gundam


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Offline deadskin

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2009, 04:24:50 PM »
Needs more hyaku shiki, IMO

Offline kureshii

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2009, 04:59:29 PM »
Thanks omegadragon, I was trying to find examples of reused scenes (didn't have any saved :\). There was one more showing the Freedom and Providence ZAKU (IIRC; I'm not too familiar with CE mecha) in the same pose turning and firing a beam rifle as well.

Also, Sazabi/Nightingale FTW. And few things match the awesomeness of Nu/Hi-Nu's funnels. I prefer the Nu's design over the Hi-Nu's or Double-fin Nu's designs though; there's just something to that low-profile backpack and asymmetrical fin distribution that I really love.

Speaking of backpacks, SEED just went overboard with backpacks >_< Justice, Infinite Justice, and then all them DRAGOON packs? Eww, just ewww. I thought 00's backpack-less designs might grow on me, but oddly... no.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 05:06:09 PM by kureshii »

Offline Torador

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2009, 05:54:05 PM »
Speaking of backpacks, SEED just went overboard with backpacks >_< Justice, Infinite Justice, and then all them DRAGOON packs? Eww, just ewww. I thought 00's backpack-less designs might grow on me, but oddly... no.

Seed has a leg to stand on though with the DRAGOONs - one leg; the Renpou Vs ZAFT games for the arcade, PS2 and PSP. Those DRAGOON units, Providence in particular, are really tricky to use but you feel great when you manage to get the rhythm down.

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2009, 06:08:20 PM »
There are no excuses! They may as well have made them mobile armors (from what I remember).

Offline Torador

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2009, 06:20:47 PM »
Oh don't get me wrong, they looked hideous. Providence in particular in the games doesn't actually walk; it hovers everywhere. That in itself is crazy; why make a mobile suit, with legs, that can't even walk?!?! :)

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2009, 07:27:37 PM »
Yeah, lot of shows do that. One thing that impresses me with shows like Full Metal Panic are that the robots (which 50% of the time seem to actually be some life form) use the legs they were given. Aside from the One Yeah War Mobile suits and the Turn A, most mobile suits spend the majority of their time in the air.

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Offline omegadragon

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2009, 07:59:58 PM »
Thanks omegadragon, I was trying to find examples of reused scenes (didn't have any saved :\). There was one more showing the Freedom and Providence ZAKU (IIRC; I'm not too familiar with CE mecha) in the same pose turning and firing a beam rifle as well.

Also, Sazabi/Nightingale FTW. And few things match the awesomeness of Nu/Hi-Nu's funnels. I prefer the Nu's design over the Hi-Nu's or Double-fin Nu's designs though; there's just something to that low-profile backpack and asymmetrical fin distribution that I really love.

I had another that showned the reused combat scenes form SEED to Destiny (you would of throught they at least try animating new scenes for the new series........)

lol you got me on the nightingale through, it is awesome as well

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Offline Torador

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2009, 09:16:33 PM »
Yeah, lot of shows do that. One thing that impresses me with shows like Full Metal Panic are that the robots (which 50% of the time seem to actually be some life form) use the legs they were given. Aside from the One Yeah War Mobile suits and the Turn A, most mobile suits spend the majority of their time in the air.

Seed Destiny is terrible for that.

Just as a good, interactive example for you, think of a typical battle from Seed Destiny. Picture it in your mind.

Does it take place over the sea, and is thus an airborne battle? Yes? I thought so. Nearly all the series takes place over water, in the air or in space. They just got bored in the middle of the series and thought "f*** it, let's just let them fly all the time".

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2009, 10:55:05 PM »
I'm not doubting you at all. I'm just agree and then adding that I wish more shows would have them walk.

Offline kureshii

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2009, 11:44:09 PM »
I'm not doubting you at all. I'm just agree and then adding that I wish more shows would have them walk.
LOL, that's kinda hard once you get past UC0080 (excluding Victory), since so many of the UC series from that point on take place in space xD The only time you see them use their legs is when launching or landing. Although legs are pretty important, from an AMBAC point of view (since their mass is so large), and also because they make good mount points for thrusters :)

SEED (as well as the AUs, apart from G Gundam :P) doesn't have enough melee fighting, in the air or on the ground, period. No, beam saber battles do not count as melee fighting. What's that, some kind of unspoken no-contact rule?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 11:46:50 PM by kureshii »

Offline nstgc

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2009, 12:04:32 AM »
Its too hard to animate. Its easier to assemble 9 battles using three stages then 4 battles with one stage. You hardly ever see the source of beam and its target without a scene cut in SEED. Plus, that would add an element of epic, which they clearly were trying to avoid.

Offline Lovedrive

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Re: Gundam Discussion
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2009, 09:06:57 AM »
I have a feeling that I'm gonna be spending a lot of time in this Topic.

Quote from: Raislin
What got me thinking about this is Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing.  I don't think I've seen anyone comment that they like both.  It seems to always be one or the other.

I don't really like either.

My opinion on Wing has cooled somewhat, but I still consider it to be a mostly a mess with a dull cast while SEED is just an awful author avatar-tastic rehash.

Quote from: Raislin
Barring Shin and Flay, I loved every character in Seed and Seed Destiny

...oh. You're one of those people?

Quote from: kureshii
But to SEED's credit, it is politically more "realistic" and suffers less from plot armour

While I won't deny that it's ridiculous how Wing makes the Leo impervious whenever a faced character gets inside it...it's really not that much worse than Kira "Messiah" Yamato or Athrun being effectively unstoppable. Then there's the last episode of Destiny with a final battle that was more one-sided than a 1993 Undertaker match.

Quote from: kureshii
I've never really thought about which I like better (Wing or SEED), since Universal Century owns them both so hard I like Universal Century so much

It was right the first time.

Quote from: Raislin
I need to (re)watch some of the Universal Century Gundam series.  They seem to be the only ones that every likes.  Any particular reason for that?

Quality.

Quote from: mgz
Wing had quite a bit of action goin on the entire time.

It also had quite a whole lot of no plot advancement going on for almost the whole series.

Quote from: kureshii
And Hisashi Hirai; oh god, I hate that guy's work.

He was good in Super Beast Machine God Dancouga way-back-when...