Discussion Forums > Technology
Windows 7 and general bitching about OSes
xShadow:
Nah, what I was mostly trying to drive home is that saying Windows sucks because you're a Linux fanboy and can't accept that it's got its uses is fucking stupid...
To be honest, I don't know. Maybe Linux is the superior OS or whatnot, but if it is, it isn't much better, and its incompatibility with several necessary office programs (and some games) keeps it from being so. My main point is that Linux would maybe be better if it had support for everything Windows did. It doesn't. That's all I was saying. I wasn't saying Windows was better than Linux, because "better" depends on what you're using it for, and I try to stay away from points that involve subjectiveness. Right now, windows just has support for things that Linux does not; nothing else. End point.
Well, in the end, I guess that was pretty much what you said we were saying anyway. *Shrug*
Lupin:
--- Quote from: NetJonte on February 07, 2009, 10:46:41 AM ---A discussion like this one is completely unnecessary. Whether a company choose one OS or another isn't a proof that that OS is better, just that that OS is better for that company. You can't argue about which OS is the best, or why one OS is better than another. One OS is not better than another, for the very same reason one car isn't better than another car, or anything else for that matter. No, different OS'es is good on different things, and not even necessarily that. Different OS'es is different even if they are equally good on the same things. Everything is about what you like the best or what fit your needs.
There is a reason why people use different OS'es, why some use Linux, other Windows, MacOS and so on. If one OS where better than another, people wouldn't use different OS'es. But people do, and reading this proves that. Some people think that Windows is superior, other think Linux is way better. But all this is the peoples own opinions. And it is impossible to develop a perfect OS, because everyone got different things they like and different needs. More than 100 linux distributions, each one thinking they are the best one, is proof enough for this, right?
Furthermore you never use the operating system as it. You always customize it, removing some programs, adding others, and make changes to the configuration, just so everything fit your needs. Everything is about what you like best yourself, and a discussion about which one is the best is completely unnecessary. You simply use the one you like the best, and others use what they like the best.
--- End quote ---
the problem with the discussion here is that thread is not about which is a better os, it's about windows 7 only. nobody here believe that windows is the best os out there. i think majority of the people here will agree that because of the user base of windows, suddenly changing operating systems is quite prohibitive considering the costs you would have to pay. each os clearly has advantages in different fields while lagging in others. i agree with all the points you made. different operating systems exist because they fill different needs of different people. no single os can do everything better than the rest. you're right when said that each os can be reconfigured. if i don't want this certain feature x, then i won't use it or i will use an alternative. no one is forcing me to use it. but you won't hear me bitch about something i don't really use because it is quite lame and does not add anything good to the discussion (which is what happened here).
--- Quote from: xShadow on February 07, 2009, 12:35:20 PM ---Nah, what I was mostly trying to drive home is that saying Windows sucks because you're a Linux fanboy and can't accept that it's got its uses is fucking stupid...
--- End quote ---
same here. i simply hate fanboyism of any form in anything.
dankles:
Ok, I really don't know how to answer all of you at once. But I'll attempt to sum everything up in one long post.
My purpose is to say that I really don't like the direction Microsoft is taking with each new Desktop Operating System and how we are losing our freedom. First XP with it sending data with ms-search to microsoft[news link], then Vista DRM and now Win7 with likely the same story. Most of what I have to say is against Vista, but will likely apply to Win7 as well(which is why I'm posting this in a Win7 thread). Because it hasn't been release yet, no one *really* knows.
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 06:01:28 PM ---Win7 and Vista *are* built off the same base, and slated to ship with DRM, though Microsoft refuses to comment on this. (if by some miracle they don't include DRM, then I'll retract my comments applying to win7)
--- End quote ---
It's a fact that Vista has DRM features that enable Microsoft to control/limit almost any aspect of your system if they want, not that they will in every instance (obviously). I have proven that they have done this before in reply #171. Here is the news url and here is the FSF link I quoted(sorry I didn't cite these before).
I'll quote myself:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 05, 2009, 10:52:15 PM ---DRM gives power to Microsoft and big media.
* They decide which programs you can and can't use on your computer
* They decide which features of your computer or software you can use at any given moment
* They force you to install new programs even when you don't want to (and, of course, pay for the privilege)
* They restrict your access to certain programs and even to your own data files
DRM is enforced by technological barriers. You try to do something, and your computer tells you that you can't. To make this effective, your computer has to be constantly monitoring what you are doing. This constant monitoring uses computing power and memory, and is a large part of the reason why Microsoft is telling you that you have to buy new and more powerful hardware in order to run Vista. They want you to buy new hardware not because you need it, but because your computer needs it in order to be more effective at restricting what you do.
--- End quote ---
I like what I posted here (A clip from the vista license agreement):
--- Quote from: dankles on February 05, 2009, 10:52:15 PM --- Microsoft says it best:
--- Quote ---The software is licensed, not sold. This agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights. Unless applicable law gives you more rights despite this limitation, you may use the software only as expressly permitted in this agreement. In doing so, you must comply with any technical limitations in the software that only allow you to use it in certain ways.
--- End quote ---
To make it even more confusing, different versions of Vista have different licensing restrictions. You can read all of the licenses at http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
--- End quote ---
When I posted this:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 02:35:45 AM ---Just remembered an excellent real life example of how malicious DRM can be:
Google Video robs customers of the videos they "own"
I still use google, guys.... just for the record...
--- End quote ---
I thought it would be obvious why I was choosing to post it in this tread. It's proof that DRM will sometimes:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 05, 2009, 10:52:15 PM ---DRM gives power to Microsoft and big media.
* They decide which programs you can and can't use on your computer
* They decide which features of your computer or software you can use at any given moment
* They force you to install new programs even when you don't want to (and, of course, pay for the privilege)
* They restrict your access to certain programs and even to your own data files
--- End quote ---
A second example which I've already stated in this reply:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 06:01:28 PM ---Here is a great example:
--- Quote from: FSF ---If you put Microsoft at the center of your home entertainment system, be prepared to hand them the remote control, literally.
Following reports that digital television viewers were blocked from recording the new season of NBC's "Gladiators", Microsoft confirmed that it is preventing users from recording the show. They claim they were acting on behalf of NBC, and are in line with regulations set by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), in disrupting computer usage based upon the so-called "broadcast flag" that was transmitted alongside the show.
A Microsoft spokesperson told CNET News, "...Windows Media Center fully adheres to the flags used by broadcasters and content owners to determine how their content is distributed and consumed."
What is the broadcast flag?
The broadcast flag is a sequence of information transmitted alongside television programs as a kind of digital order telling viewers to not do certain things, such as record the show or share it with a friend.
Many of the large media companies and the FCC tried to make obeying the broadcast flag a law. However, the Electronic Frontier Foundation took the FCC to court, and US Court of Appeals ruled that the FCC had exceeded its authority, and that no such law could exist. Despite this ruling, it appears that Microsoft has decided to work directly with media companies to implement these rules anyway, restricting how and when you watch television.
Building such a system is no trivial task. To do this, Microsoft has gone to great lengths to restrict users from saving a television program to their computers, we call this kind of functionality an "antifeature," because it takes more work for Microsoft to prevent the user from saving the program, than if they were to leave just the default behavior alone. So instead of letting you record programs as you normally would, it locks you out and deletes the show before you can save it.
However, Microsoft hasn't just made a little tweak to their software to do this -- they have compiled an entire system built upon antifeatures. This antifeature platform is integrated into their Windows Media software and forms the basis of their Windows Vista operating system, and they are working hard to convince companies like NBC, that Microsoft can be in control of how and when you get to watch television. As creepy and as ridiculous as it may sound, this is their business strategy, and by getting this control, both the television and movie industry and computer users will be tied to Microsoft software.
Don't be fooled into their claims that they are following regulations by the FCC -- the court ruled that the FCC has no power to make such regulations. This is also claimed as a measure just to stop unauthorized file sharing, yet what Microsoft is doing is trying to make sure that they are on every end of the market, from how it is delivered, to how you watch it. As Ars Technica reporter Jacqui Cheng puts it, this is not about Microsoft preventing people from sharing files without permission, "t's about the ability to strictly control how we consume content"[2].
Microsoft wants to have that control, and this software is the way they are trying to get it. Software that is designed in this way is known as 'DRM', which stands for 'Digital Rights Management', and yet it is really just another way to restriction how consumers interact with things on their own computers and devices. Because of this restriction, we refer to DRM as 'Digital Restrictions Management'.
[2]: It should be noted that this writer refers to a person that shares files as a "pirate," we think this is a bit of an extreme description that should be avoided. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080514-nbc-vista-copy-protection-snafu-reminds-us-why-drm-stinks.html
--- End quote ---
--- End quote ---
Here is the news url and here is the FSF link for this --^
Bottom line is that Vista is able to give Microsoft control over your OS. Not that they ever will completely, but history shows that both Microsoft and other DRM proponents have. This is a limit to our freedom. I'm pro for-profit software, but not at the expense of freedom. If you still insist that you still have all your freedom with vista, then I have *nothing* to say to you.
As for all the Linux comments. I'm slightly offended at what I've heard. I really don't think I've gone over the top at all with what I've said when compaired to some of your comments (not all of them).
--- Quote from: Lupin on February 07, 2009, 07:21:31 AM ---but please, if you're just going to bitch about linux being better because X features of windows are shit in this thread, then please shut the fuck up. your posts doesn't contribute any constructive ideas to the discussion. this is a thread about windows 7, not linux. you're not a real windows user to begin with.
--- End quote ---
that is reply #179. One post above his in Reply #178 i said:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 07, 2009, 12:16:47 AM ----My point is to bash the DRM philosophy of MS more than promote linux. Go use something else for all i care(BSD/Solaris/even Mac(without DRM Itunes) is better).
--- End quote ---
And to say I'm not a real windows user:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 02:28:08 AM ---Lots of business programs run under linux... Though I did *have* to run WinXP once upon a time when I was programming with .NET 1.1.... so i don't completely shun Windows/MS... unless it's WinVista or Win7 because they include all the drm stuff.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 11:00:59 PM ---I use XP for games *sometimes*(I say it grudgingly).
--- End quote ---
On top of that, I was a Network Administrator for for a company with hundreds of 2000/XP/2003 Machines that I would work on every day from the time I was 15 to 21 years old. I *have* used vista before as well. I service my friends computers all the time and many of them run Vista.
--- Quote from: Dragoon AceHigh on February 07, 2009, 09:57:26 AM ---
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 11:00:59 PM ---What kind of business stuff can't Linux run? or at least have an equal counter part application (there are a few, but most can be matched by linux).
--- End quote ---
Ok genius, here are a few: CAD programs like Pro/Engineer, Solidworks; VSM programs like Proteus, Multisim, Ultraboard and OrCAD.
And look at one of the world's biggest robot manufacturer ABB, they had UNIX based interface (Conductor UX 5.0), but told their customers to switch to Windows (Conductor NT) in order to get more features.
The truth is, industry used UNIX back in the old days but almost all big manufacturers use Windows today.... or if they don't like it, they make their own dedicated software like KUKA robotics manufacturer.
--- End quote ---
To answer you I'll quote my self:
--- Quote from: dankles on February 06, 2009, 06:54:32 PM ---Now from a practical point of view, I'll say that I use Linux for nearly every thing I do (email,docs,programing,internet,server,etc). yes, there are way to many distros, but only a few main stream ones. And its not as hard as you think to make software for them. It's actually easier IMO to make Linux software than windows, even if you include the great "Visual Studio" suite.
I'll say that windows *does* do some things better simply because it has better software in some areas (video editing,easy codec conversion tools,games,i cant think of anything else). For those things I do actually use windows sometimes, but only WinXP because it lacks the DRM "features" of its children.
Also, Linux lacks some of the driver support that windows has because companies refuse to open their driver specifications to the Linux developers.
Again, if business requires windows, then use windows. Because money on the table it priority one.
anyways... I've rambled too much...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: dankles on February 07, 2009, 12:16:47 AM ---there are plenty of options that don't involve MS. I've seen many many many network setups that don't require MS stuff and they work great.(google it)
--- End quote ---
here is a great link for some examples to this --^
--- Quote from: xShadow on February 07, 2009, 08:18:05 AM ---Explaining yourself twice? More like you fucking failed to explain yourself adequately the first time. Your points all involve vague concepts, and whenever someone counters you, you just keep repeating the same thing. That doesn't work very well in debates. Your second point was already COMPLETELY countered by my first paragraph (and then Lupin's first paragraph above). Are you reading impaired?
--- End quote ---
I didn't know that name calling (I'm reading impaired?) was good for debates either. In fact it shows someone with a lack of self control.
I didn't answer because your vulgarity makes me sick and to quote lupin "this is a thread about windows 7, not linux"(my vista comments *do* apply to Win7 because of what I said in the beginning of this post). And I never said Enterprises should switch to linux. Although I do think it would be cheaper to switch to a linux enterprise than upgrade from 2000/XP/2003 to Vista/2008.
Many enterprises have done this with great success. (google it)
Anyways, I'm done.
***I won't be posting any more***
I'm tired of this. Have the final words ;D
costi:
--- Quote ---It applies to all of the OS.
--- End quote ---
Well, guess what... my Windows doesn't even have Windows Media Player or Automatic Updates in it.
What's more, you can decide not to send anything to Microsoft, and even to not download licences for files that need them (so you can cripple yourself for the sake of privacy).
--- Quote --- intel forced microsoft to lower the vista capable branding so that intel graphics can be used when it fact they cannot?
--- End quote ---
Dunno about you, but on my Intel X3100 Aero worked like a charm. It does in Win7 as well.
--- Quote ---What kind of business stuff can't Linux run? or at least have an equal counter part application (there are a few, but most can be matched by linux).
--- End quote ---
Microsoft Office. Open Office fails epically when it comes to something just a little more complicated than plain text.
--- Quote ---Because it hasn't been release yet, no one *really* knows.
--- End quote ---
Damn, the beta I'm using for over a month must be my imagination, then...
--- Quote ---but history shows that both Microsoft and other DRM proponents have.
--- End quote ---
When and how?
mgz:
--- Quote from: costi on February 08, 2009, 07:19:22 PM ---
--- Quote ---It applies to all of the OS.
--- End quote ---
Well, guess what... my Windows doesn't even have Windows Media Player or Automatic Updates in it.
What's more, you can decide not to send anything to Microsoft, and even to not download licences for files that need them (so you can cripple yourself for the sake of privacy).
--- Quote --- intel forced microsoft to lower the vista capable branding so that intel graphics can be used when it fact they cannot?
--- End quote ---
Dunno about you, but on my Intel X3100 Aero worked like a charm. It does in Win7 as well.
--- Quote ---What kind of business stuff can't Linux run? or at least have an equal counter part application (there are a few, but most can be matched by linux).
--- End quote ---
Microsoft Office. Open Office fails epically when it comes to something just a little more complicated than plain text.
--- Quote ---Because it hasn't been release yet, no one *really* knows.
--- End quote ---
Damn, the beta I'm using for over a month must be my imagination, then...
--- Quote ---but history shows that both Microsoft and other DRM proponents have.
--- End quote ---
When and how?
--- End quote ---
i think specifically what hes talking about with the intel graphics being the lowest end of them that were branded with VISTA CAPABLE, where they were having comps WAY TO SHITTY to use vista branded with it so that intel could move more product
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