Author Topic: Apple releases new... everything  (Read 28221 times)

Offline iindigo

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2009, 06:48:45 PM »
"better side of computing" my arse. Macs are for idiots.

That's personal opinion. Ironically, I've found that OS X generally does less hand holding and expects the user to be more technically adept than Windows does, which is odd considering that Macs are supposedly better for computer noobs than Windows is.

Besides, going to Windows means giving up my commandline (cmd.exe is a poor excuse), which is something I'm not willing to do >_>


What?? i use windows and i have all the commandline i want.  CMD.EXE is still in windows, and its a handy thing too. Windows comandline tools are the same as in macs, basically, they just run stuff from a specified set of paramiters.  All are the same, windows command line tools just mean you have to be a bit more experienced in how to use them.


Well more accurately, the Mac commandline is exactly like that of any other Linux or UNIX distro, which happen to be very powerful when in the hands of someone knowledgeable.

As for the power of cmd.exe, what all does it come standard with? Can I use sudo to force things the system doesn't normally allow because of permissions? Can I use it to SSH into other machines and control them remotely? Does it have the full arsenal of file management tools (including batch permission changing)? Does it allow full control of open processes, allowing you to kill them no matter what or limiting their processor usage to a certain amount, or even temporarily "freeze" or pause a processor-heavy app? I could go on and on.

Offline molbjerg

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2009, 08:32:40 AM »
You could drag any of the files out of their position in the project, which will obviously break things, and leave you trawling through folders to find where it is since undo usually never works.

And on to the commandline etc. few people seem to accept that a GUI is just a tiny part of an OS. Well, it is for me, since I use windows and don't have explorer running... I use Litestep which has a good commandline implementation, not to mention customisability which drives windows and mac into the ground. (here is the GUI I made/use: http://www.xan-creations.com/xandos/flvxandos.html)

I have a good interface AND compatibility.
all i can think of when i hear that garbage is just pounding guys in the ass

Offline iindigo

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2009, 12:28:55 PM »
Undo has always worked perfectly for me under Mac OS. Can't say the same for Windows.

And that UI looks alright, but isn't quite my cup of tea. Too compact, at least in my opinion. I have messed around with various alternative desktops on Windows before (litestep, bb4win, emerge, etc) and most of them take too long to get them exactly the way I like them. I'd prefer to just be able to boot up off of a clean install and have everything set up "my way" within 10 minutes.


Offline molbjerg

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2009, 01:02:45 PM »
The undo problem is not a problem of windows in general, it is just generally a problem. Even ridiculous programs like 3D Studio etc. often can't deal with all of the eventualities it needs to be able to undo.

My interface is pretty irrelevent, what I mean is that on windows you can ultimately control what your interface is - can you do the same on mac? Not that I've heard. But then, mac people aren't exactly the sort of people who customise anything, so it seems pretty weird making the fact that osx is sort of customisable a selling point versus windows.

As for getting it all working quickly, if I reinstall windows I have my interface running in 5 minutes, the trouble is that it took about a year to develop! But if you didn't care about things being EXACTLY as you wanted them there are plenty of possibilities out there, themes that others have made. Certainly, I wouldn't consider even an hour setting up your interface as a negative point against an OS, as that one hour setting up will probably be 0.00001% of the time you spend on your computer. You have to do it once, it's not like you have to do it every time you turn on the computer...
all i can think of when i hear that garbage is just pounding guys in the ass

Offline Stsin

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #104 on: March 11, 2009, 06:10:00 AM »
Is that Directory Opus similar to the one on the Amiga?  Now that's something I've missed.  Windows Explorer is so backwards when you've used a file management program like Directory Opus.

Offline molbjerg

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #105 on: March 11, 2009, 08:43:08 AM »
I don't remember Opus on the Amiga, so I'm not really sure.


Oh, I forgot to mention, Litestep has a pretty powerful commandline interface too....
all i can think of when i hear that garbage is just pounding guys in the ass

Offline chubbysumo

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #106 on: March 11, 2009, 06:48:45 PM »
"better side of computing" my arse. Macs are for idiots.

That's personal opinion. Ironically, I've found that OS X generally does less hand holding and expects the user to be more technically adept than Windows does, which is odd considering that Macs are supposedly better for computer noobs than Windows is.

Besides, going to Windows means giving up my commandline (cmd.exe is a poor excuse), which is something I'm not willing to do >_>


What?? i use windows and i have all the commandline i want.  CMD.EXE is still in windows, and its a handy thing too. Windows comandline tools are the same as in macs, basically, they just run stuff from a specified set of paramiters.  All are the same, windows command line tools just mean you have to be a bit more experienced in how to use them.


Well more accurately, the Mac commandline is exactly like that of any other Linux or UNIX distro, which happen to be very powerful when in the hands of someone knowledgeable.

As for the power of cmd.exe, what all does it come standard with? Can I use sudo to force things the system doesn't normally allow because of permissions? Can I use it to SSH into other machines and control them remotely? Does it have the full arsenal of file management tools (including batch permission changing)? Does it allow full control of open processes, allowing you to kill them no matter what or limiting their processor usage to a certain amount, or even temporarily "freeze" or pause a processor-heavy app? I could go on and on.


Yes you can use sudo to force things the system wont normally allow, You can use it for SSH into other machines for remote operation, IT DOES HAVE BATCH PERMISSION CHANGES for files, as well as full file management tools, I have had to use it to save some files becuase of bad permissions on a old HDD, It does allow full control of open processes.  Like I said, CMD.exe just makes it so the user has to have more knowleged about how the OS works, because it doent hold you hand in the process.  IT relies on YOU the user to know all the commands, and what they do.  You can run all of windows thru CMD.exe.  It just makes you have to know more.

Offline molbjerg

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #107 on: May 14, 2009, 03:35:36 PM »
I seem to remember discussing why xcode sucks.. and I found a funny website.

This one's for you iindigo:

http://www.xcodesucks.com
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Offline AceHigh

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #108 on: May 14, 2009, 04:24:46 PM »
As for the power of cmd.exe, what all does it come standard with? Can I use sudo to force things the system doesn't normally allow because of permissions? Can I use it to SSH into other machines and control them remotely? Does it have the full arsenal of file management tools (including batch permission changing)? Does it allow full control of open processes, allowing you to kill them no matter what or limiting their processor usage to a certain amount, or even temporarily "freeze" or pause a processor-heavy app? I could go on and on.

Yes you can do all that.

However I prefer PuTTy for SSH and TeraTerm for Serial ports. (Yes I use serial ports when messing with electronics at work)

Meh, cmd.exe is a poor choice for me when I have to try gaining access to a CPU which I accidentally program with wrong fuses and wrong internal frequency (yes, today was a bad day at work), however attempting to use a Mac for that would be simply ridiculous.

So in other words when it generally comes to things like communicating with something else on an advanced level, Mac is pure garbage.
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Offline flaresignal

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2009, 04:03:39 AM »
Like I said, CMD.exe just makes it so the user has to have more knowleged about how the OS works, because it doent hold you hand in the process.  IT relies on YOU the user to know all the commands, and what they do.  You can run all of windows thru CMD.exe.  It just makes you have to know more.

Sounds like code for "is poorly documented", honestly. Almost every Unix distribution has a good, searchable set of man pages for available commands, including Mac OS X.

Also, bash and other Unix shells generally put cmd.exe to shame in scriptability and command entry (tab completion, history, etc.), though Microsoft's made a good effort at bridging that gap with PowerShell.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 04:05:26 AM by flaresignal »

Offline WingZero8788

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2009, 04:13:56 AM »
You can get a list for all of the CMD command functions but it really doesn't describe exactly what they do right off, though I think there is a help command in which you can have it describe what that function does.
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Offline iindigo

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #111 on: May 16, 2009, 02:49:40 AM »
I seem to remember discussing why xcode sucks.. and I found a funny website.

This one's for you iindigo:

http://www.xcodesucks.com

I personally have no problem with it. Admittedly I'm no pro, but a lot of people agree with me - if they didn't, there wouldn't be nearly as many Mac and iPhone apps as there are.

Also, read the two next to last comments on that page you linked. They serve as a nice rebuttal to what the site's saying.

Is it perfect? Obviously not, as nothing is. I don't necessarily think making it a clone of every other IDE out there is the solution, though.

EDIT: Oh, and just FYI - the single-window UI he's pushing for IDEs doesn't typically work all that nicely on OS X. Macs have always been centered around each document getting its own window. Personally, single-window UIs make me want to punch holes in the wall... they're really frustrating to try to display multiple documents on unless you have a really large screen.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 02:56:09 AM by iindigo »

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #112 on: May 16, 2009, 03:14:58 AM »
Having lots of apps doesn't mean a code is "good". Look at flash. Is it the same?
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Offline surdumil

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #113 on: May 16, 2009, 03:33:13 AM »
Um.... this seems like an appropriate place for this link:

http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.html?/video/ossuckscable.html~content


Offline iindigo

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #114 on: May 16, 2009, 04:24:38 AM »
Having lots of apps doesn't mean a code is "good". Look at flash. Is it the same?

No, but one would think that if Xcode sucked as bad as suggested, it would have some bearing on how many are developed. Also, if it's so bad, why hasn't somebody created their own Mac-native Xcode alternative that's just as complete and powerful?

It's really not that bad. It's simply different from most IDEs and takes getting used to.

Offline zherok

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #115 on: May 16, 2009, 05:18:15 AM »
I think its a pretty silly argument to imply popularity infers a good development platform. People would be buying the iPhone even if it weren't the largest source of smart phone apps. Its popularity is what facilitates development of apps in the first place. The fact that its development environment might not be all that great doesn't really have any bearing on the end user.

As for building an alternative, I wouldn't know whether thats practical or not, but I doubt demanding that sort of thing when trying to attract developers does much to encourage them.

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #116 on: May 16, 2009, 02:26:44 PM »
I think its a pretty silly argument to imply popularity infers a good development platform. People would be buying the iPhone even if it weren't the largest source of smart phone apps. Its popularity is what facilitates development of apps in the first place. The fact that its development environment might not be all that great doesn't really have any bearing on the end user.

As for building an alternative, I wouldn't know whether thats practical or not, but I doubt demanding that sort of thing when trying to attract developers does much to encourage them.

Thanks. That's what I meant with the "flash program" comment. :)
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Offline mgz

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #117 on: May 19, 2009, 06:36:51 PM »
I think its a pretty silly argument to imply popularity infers a good development platform. People would be buying the iPhone even if it weren't the largest source of smart phone apps. Its popularity is what facilitates development of apps in the first place. The fact that its development environment might not be all that great doesn't really have any bearing on the end user.

As for building an alternative, I wouldn't know whether thats practical or not, but I doubt demanding that sort of thing when trying to attract developers does much to encourage them.
i dont know about that you would see probably a large quantity of the chimps who currently use the iphone not using it without an app store

Offline zherok

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #118 on: May 20, 2009, 12:49:11 AM »
i dont know about that you would see probably a large quantity of the chimps who currently use the iphone not using it without an app store
Dunno. I do know it sold well on day 1 though, I doubt that success was due to apps that didn't exist at that point.

Offline AntiPaladin

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Re: Apple releases new... everything
« Reply #119 on: May 20, 2009, 01:22:54 AM »
*Sigh* This debate always seems to pop up in my life.

I've been using computers, both PC and Mac, since 1988. I began tinkering with them and building towers back in 1996. I have friends who are both Aero Engineers (high-end PC users) and Film makers (high-end Mac users) Also, my best friend is an Apple Genius.

In all that time, in all those places, knowing all these people, and having this argument God knows how many times, nothing has changed the fundamental uses for either machine, despite what their proponents want to think.

Macs are idiot-proof. Plain and simple. If you aren't an avid computer user and want something straight out of the box that will work forever and never break down since all you do it type and check email on it, then you want a Mac. Macs are created mainly for general purpose work, and not much else. It's supposed to be your "personal" computer, something you use everyday but never stress all that much.Thus, the much greater price can be justified because you'll only need to replace it once every 5+ years.

Otherwise, Macs are used for high-end, specialized work, like video or audio editing. A $5000 G5 is not something you buy so you can use Itunes, you buy it so you can edit digital film. NO ONE in a professional industry uses those computers as their everyday machine unless they're filthy stinking rich.

PCs are for people who actually know something about computers beyond turning them on and searching Google. They are not idiot-proof, and have a fairly harsh learning curve. What they offer, though, is much greater flexibility. I can make Windows sit up, beg, and roll over when I tell it to. However, I am an advanced user, and that is what I want. If you have a slightly higher than normal level of computer knowledge, maintaining a good PC is easy. Building your own computer (something else I enjoy) isn't possible with Mac, but it is with PC, further increasing my ability to customize what I want my computer to do.

And in terms of gaming, well, there's no comparison. Macs suck for any kind of high-end gaming. More importantly, a good PC can blow a console out of the water. My PC isn't even top end anymore, but it still runs Fallout 3 much better than my friend's PS3. Also, for any kind of programing or usage that requires both graphics and lots of computing power (like my friend the engineer running Solidworks), PC comes out on top.

That's it. Beyond those settings mentioned above, I have yet to see anything besides price and personal opinion influence someone's opinion of their system one way or the other. You can not definitively state that one is better than the other because they are built for different roles and different people. Some things one will do better, some things the other will. Get used to it.

And before any Mac lovers come screaming out about how much safer Macs are or how PCs are full or viruses and Macs aren't, let remind you of a very simple point - People make viruses to get attention. If a new virus made all the PCs on the world go down, the world would be pretty fucked. If all the Macs died, well, no big loss outside the entertainment world, who would simply switch over to PCs running Vegas. Macs are not inherently better against viruses and spyware than PCs, virus makers simply don't care enough about them to bother making any viruses for them.