Apple releases new... everything

[Proin Drakenzol]

No, but higher end cases are generally nicer to work with, and once the machine is assembled, nicer to be around if you keep your tower on your desk instead of under it (I do this to reduce dust intake).

cases that cost $150 are also easy to work with. paying double or more than double for aluminum or the look(of a tool) is simply unnecessary.

No, but when you have significantly more room for mounting stuff, and you know you'll be shipping it across the ocean (eventually) and it's less than a 10% price increase... it's not that big of a deal to get. The convenience of the extra space granted by a well layed out full ATX tower cannot be overstated

[iindigo]

Cramped cases plain suck. Every time I have to work on a Dell or Gateway or whathaveyou for someone I end up cursing the manufacturer for their choice of case.

[bloody000]

No, but when you have significantly more room for mounting stuff, and you know you'll be shipping it across the ocean (eventually) and it's less than a 10% price increase... it's not that big of a deal to get. The convenience of the extra space granted by a well layed out full ATX tower cannot be overstated

You are delusional if you think full towers are expensive.

[zherok]

Cramped cases plain suck. Every time I have to work on a Dell or Gateway or whathaveyou for someone I end up cursing the manufacturer for their choice of case.

There are plenty of small form factor Macs, many with considerably limited upgrade capabilities. And on the other hand Dell most certainly sells regular sized cases. I've had no issues with mine anyway.

[Proin Drakenzol]

No, but when you have significantly more room for mounting stuff, and you know you'll be shipping it across the ocean (eventually) and it's less than a 10% price increase... it's not that big of a deal to get. The convenience of the extra space granted by a well layed out full ATX tower cannot be overstated

You are delusional if you think full towers are expensive.

they're not. but there's a definite plus to the Lian Li that I have vice an all steel one. namely the fact I know I will have to move it, possibly frequently, I am in the military. After all, even if I get rid of the guts, I doubt I'll get rid of the case.

[iindigo]

Cramped cases plain suck. Every time I have to work on a Dell or Gateway or whathaveyou for someone I end up cursing the manufacturer for their choice of case.

There are plenty of small form factor Macs, many with considerably limited upgrade capabilities. And on the other hand Dell most certainly sells regular sized cases. I've had no issues with mine anyway.

iMacs are made with the average consumer in mind. That section of the market doesn't really upgrade... at all. For the most part, the only work that anybody would be doing on them is upgrading their RAM, which is no big deal, even to a total tech noob: just open the hatch on the bottom with two captive screws, slide in the RAM stick, and close it. No frustration.

With the other low-end/cheapo PCs, I gotta cope with the wires and cables being strewn everywhere, not much space to function in, and about half the time or more the card slots on the MB not matching up with the holes in the back of the case (though admittedly, I've only seen this in Dells). Those slim cases Dell used in some OptiPlex models are even worse, since the case will never shut completely/correctly and your PCI cards have to sit in a riser/adapter thing.

[bloody000]

that operation sounded awfully familiar, like a.....laptop?

and these "low-end/cheapo PCs" are supposed to be what? high-end workstations? or custom-built machines?

.....wait, why the fuck are we talking about fucking DELLS?

[iindigo]

that operation sounded awfully familiar, like a.....laptop?

Well that makes sense, considering that the iMac is basically a laptop with a nice, large H-PVA display (laptops typically use TN panels) built into a desktop form factor.

and these "low-end/cheapo PCs" are supposed to be what? high-end workstations? or custom-built machines?

.....wait, why the fuck are we talking about fucking DELLS?

Because that's what's common and it's what I end up having to fix/work on when I repair computers for the locals here. I was just noting that most premade PC cases are small, cramped, and cheap as hell.

[bloody000]

that operation sounded awfully familiar, like a.....laptop?

Well that makes sense, considering that the iMac is basically a laptop with a nice, large H-PVA display (laptops typically use TN panels) built into a desktop form factor.

20" imacs are using TN panel. 6-bit panels no less.
only 24" ones use S-PVA. H-PVA doesn't exist.

[iindigo]

that operation sounded awfully familiar, like a.....laptop?

Well that makes sense, considering that the iMac is basically a laptop with a nice, large H-PVA display (laptops typically use TN panels) built into a desktop form factor.

20" imacs are using TN panel. 6-bit panels no less.
only 24" ones use S-PVA. H-PVA doesn't exist.

Quite right, I was getting H-IPS and S-PVA mixed up. Too many damn panel types these days >_<

There's been rumors flying around that the 20" model may be discontinued, with a 24" model taking its position and price point. Dunno how much truth there is to it, but it would be consistent with Apple's gradual killing of smaller screen sizes - the iMac started at 15" (13" viewable CRT), then went to 15" LCD, added a 17" model, then discontinued 15" and added 20", then added 24", then discontinued 17".

[bloody000]

looked it up.
it appears the 24" model has s-ips.

[zherok]

Because that's what's common and it's what I end up having to fix/work on when I repair computers for the locals here. I was just noting that most premade PC cases are small, cramped, and cheap as hell.

I think I'd take the cramped case to the one that has everything soldered to the motherboard, in all honesty...

iMacs are made with the average consumer in mind. That section of the market doesn't really upgrade... at all.

It's not just iMacs. You don't get a regular size case until you drop over $2000 on a Mac.

I can only speak personally, but the lack of a more conventional mid or low-line for Apple is a pretty big discouragement from even considering them. I'm not going to drop $1200 on a computer that has to be replaced outright whenever it needs an upgrade. And the Mac Mini is far too much about form factor and not enough about performance, given it's price tag.

[iindigo]

I agree, a midline machine is really needed. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen because Apple is trying to avoid cannibalizing sales of both the iMac and Mac Pro.

This is also why hackintoshes are becoming more popular all the time, and the field will continue to grow until Apple offers a somewhat cost-effective midline alternative.

[sdedalus83]

I just noticed supermicro now has i7 xeon workstation boards -

1xSupermicro workstation board - $400
1xLian Li full tower case - $240
1x910w PCPnP single 12v rail PSU - $185
1x1tb Caviar black - $100

basic single cpu pc workstation set up with E5520 ($405) - $1330

Basic mac pro with 1tb drive - $2600

stick 2 x5570 chips in the pc - $3925

Mac pro with 1 x5570 - $3900

Dual socket mac pro with the same - $6000

As you can see, the single socket mac pro is a sad joke, costing as much with a single x5570 as the pc does with 2. (It's a $1500 cpu for fuck's sake.)

Well, Apple did have a short period of exclusivity.  That should count for something shouldn't it?  Even in the face of overwhelming, considerably cheaper and better competition?  Nah, I didn't think so either.

Note - I didn't add any memory to the pc because the apple upgrade from 6gb to 12 costs $100 more than replacing it yourself with the same, and the move to 32 via apple costs $5300 more than 6x4gb (of registered DDR3 1333 no less) would DIY.  Since you'll be trashing the included ram anyway, it's better to treat it as if it's not there.


That idea of a midline machine would be fine, if they could offer a fully featured core i7 system, with the Mac pro case, sli and crossfire capabilities, and price it for the same stupid premium the pc manufacturers charge over DIY systems.  The problem for them is that it would have to come in at about $500 less than the single socket mac pro in order to compete with the top tier pc builders, all while costing about the same to manufacture as their current product.  So they slap Xeon on the side and pretend their castrated single socket mac pro is anything but a mule with 3 gimpy legs.  Then the real mac pro would have to be everything the PC i listed above is, priced as it is now, all while costing about $500 - 1000 more to build.

For Apple it's not worth it, so they'll continue to sell shitty systems with a relatively appealing OS.  They never should have gone Intel.  At lease when they used PPC, the mac centered applications would always have poorly performing x86 ports, and nobody would be able to see just how overpriced their systems were.  Now we can, part for part, along with all the bogus shortcuts made to cut costs and fit into a certain stylish form factor.

[furuoshiki]

Well, Apple did have a short period of exclusivity.  That should count for something shouldn't it?  Even in the face of overwhelming, considerably cheaper and better competition?  Nah, I didn't think so either.

*ahem*: http://forums.boxtorrents.com/index.php?topic=15832.new#new

I think we as consumers are dancing around the issue here which appears to not have changed despite deflationary pricing schemes of various commodities abound.

1) Apple is a group of fucking idiots. Why? Aside from their technology not being infinitely superior to PC to warrant the generally exorbitant pricing strategy they are simultaneously fucking themselves in the asscheeks with multiple marketing schemes that contradict each other which will be conveniently explained in the following:

2) You cannot market to a "niche" market while marketing to the "average consumer" Epic Fail Magna Cum Laude. (refer to iPhone sales and trends for logistics)

3)

(click to show/hide)

YOU DO NOT KEEP PRICES HIGH IN AN UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL RECESSION WHILE EVERY COLLABORATOR IN THE B2B FUCKING SUPPLY CHAIN HAS CUT JOBS AND COSTS LEAVING YOU THE NAIL THAT STICKS OUT AND GETS STOMPED BY POOR PEER REVIEWS.

(please refer to the proliferation of "netbooks" for a clear example of the PC's innovative way of coping with rising costs and thinner pockets in general consumer groups.)

4)

(click to show/hide)

YOU DO NOT CONTINUE TO RELEASE HIGH-END PRODUCTS IN AN UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL RECESSION.

Epic Fail SUMMA CUM LAUDE.

5) Fellas, look. Apple's pricing is actually paradoxical. It is the only thing keeping it "exclusive" among higher-end consumer groups yet it is the only thing in the way of it actually penetrating into the deeper computer consumer market. Apple is non-existent in the B2B context so you'll forgive me for not giving a shit about their progress regarding that sector. Jobs is a fucking kumquat and a FAGGOT to boot. The idiot loses out publicly revealing more high-end bullshit that will never penetrate big business or the public sector. He spends millions developing niche and exclusive products that will never earn significant market share. Bill Gates quits his job to help starving children in Africa and extend information and education. The man is a con-man but is good at his job and great with timing. Jobs is diagnosed with polyps and remains in the status of "pussy ass bitch", along with his unique hipster-ish consumers. The government complains about Microsoft's domination yet they do not back Apple which shows that Apple will never be "the one" to trump the PC. If anything the hope solely lies in Linux "distros".

6) Take a look at Apple, AT&T and iPhone. Apple is a fucking coward and an idiot for releasing iPhone on a no-name cellular network alternatively known as a well-aged land-line cooperation and former behemoth that has been declining into a Coma since the late 1970's. If you are stupid enough to market your product with a cellular company that is seeing the end of it's days as a PREMIER telecommunications provider you must ALSO be stupid enough to continue developing niche products for high-end consumers in an economic recession. A recession is not only the time to cut costs but to GAIN TRUST and inevitably down the road...MARKET SHARE.
With greater market share in the computer industry naturally will come GREATER government subsidies and incentives to take on Microsoft. However, if your products are NOT RELIABLE and ALL TALK, then naturally NO ONE with a BRAIN will want to BACK YOU.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the board...IT IS HIGH TIME THAT APPLE BIT THE DUST.

[iindigo]

Well for a company that's doing everything wrong and needs to die, they seem to be doing really well. $12 billion surplus in the bank well.

6) Take a look at Apple, AT&T and iPhone. Apple is a fucking coward and an idiot for releasing iPhone on a no-name cellular network alternatively known as a well-aged land-line cooperation and former behemoth that has been declining into a Coma since the late 1970's. If you are stupid enough to market your product with a cellular company that is seeing the end of it's days as a PREMIER telecommunications provider you must ALSO be stupid enough to continue developing niche products for high-end consumers in an economic recession. A recession is not only the time to cut costs but to GAIN TRUST and inevitably down the road...MARKET SHARE.
With greater market share in the computer industry naturally will come GREATER government subsidies and incentives to take on Microsoft. However, if your products are NOT RELIABLE and ALL TALK, then naturally NO ONE with a BRAIN will want to BACK YOU.

Apple went with AT&T in the US for one reason: no other carrier would take them.

In the early stages of development, they went around and talked to the various carriers to try to see if any would back them in their phone endeavors. Not having anything to show at that point and being a total unknown in the phone business, very few companies even showed interest. AT&T agreed to back them, but in turn demanded exclusivity for the length of the contract (which ends in 2010, btw).

[furuoshiki]

Well that would be the point.

My marketing professor said that it's nothing short of a miracle that Apple was able to expand into Phones. It was a stupid risk and they were incredibly lucky that a partner in crime competing for the world's most struggling stragglers of enterprise heard the call to duty.

iPhone is not going to work on other providers because LG and Samsung will certainly have something to say about it. With Verizon and Sprint earning huge earnings and market share based on their increasingly competitive internet packages on these PDA/Smart phones produced by LG and others you can't expect them to sell out to apple just for one phone that can easily be trumped by the industry leaders in a year or less.

What you gotta realize is that Apple is just getting into Phones. LG and others have been doing this for a long time now. Are they intending to compete on the same level as them? Truly?

[zherok]

Well for a company that's doing everything wrong and needs to die, they seem to be doing really well. $12 billion surplus in the bank well.

Their reliance on pushing hardware for profit does seem to limit the likelihood they'll consider branching out to more conventional models though.

[furuoshiki]

Personally I feel Apple's Mac has over-stayed it's welcome as "The historical alternative" to PC. It needs a major face-lift. The only reason it's still alive is because of rich pseudo-hipsters with mommies and daddies with money in the bank and art/music schools using them.

Yes you have users who actually care about computers and know what they are doing and enjoy Mac on a deeper level such as iindigo but you have to realize that such a group is not Mac's primary market nor are they intending to sell to computer users actually proficient in troubleshooting or for those that need productivity suites, accountability and quality assurance control in regards to keeping IT costs in check in the B2B context.

What I can't seem to get past is that you don't see Mac being used extensively in the public sector or the medium to large enterprise setting. You can hit me with "Gates has a stronghold on big business" all you want but if Microsoft actually didn't work and firms lost millions in potential revenue and profit from soaring IT costs I would think if Apple were a more viable alternative they would switch without hesitation, and the government would not punish them for such a transition but reward it to weaken the monopoly Microsoft has.

I understand that lobbies in select industries can be strong to keep out competitors and it is very hard to beat out such an entrenched behemoth with low prices and moderately high quality. But there really is no excuse for Apple since Jobs formerly worked with Gates extensively as a youth and knows how he thinks and secondly there are alternative options. You can either take the high route or low route. You try and out-price the competitor with competitive pricing or you increase your quality of service beyond anything the competitor can offer at his current price forcing him to raise his quality or price effectively. Now you can never "force" someone to raise their price as that is never a good idea in the B2C context and damages consumer confidence. But there are a variety of price setting privileges that a monopolist has in the B2B context that can only be turned over by government intervention.

My advice to Apple is both: Improve overall quality of "shelf-life", effectiveness and simplicity of Macs, and price competitively in the B2B context. (This requires Apple actually gaining consumer confidence in that sector) The fact of the matter is Apple is now forced to remain forever as an "exclusively" priced product because that is the history of their pricing strategy. If they change now they will look even less appealing than before and inconsistent unless Jobs is overthrown and a new administration is announced.

Overall Apple's marketing is not very appealing to most PC users to begin with:

Scenario I:

Apple guy: Hey c'mere kid.
(experienced) PC user : Yes?
Apple guy: Aren't you tired of BSODs? random errors?
(experienced) PC user : Uh I guess, but Command Prompt, Task Manager and some investigation usually clears it up in most cases.
Apple guy: Okay, but aren't you still tired of having to do all of that?
(experienced) PC user: Dude what the fuck is your problem?
Apple guy: Nothing nevermind.

Scenario II:

Apple Guy: Hey c'mere kid.
PC-n00b: Yes?
Apple Guy: Aren't you tired of having such a dull looking PC?
PC-n00b: Yeah like totally man.
Apple Guy: Wouldn't you like a computer that would make you UNIQUE?
PC-n00b: Like, totally for sure.
Apple Guy: You got $2000?
PC-n00b: Uh I could see my dad's credit card should have it.
Apple Guy: Cool. Come with me.

Scenario I (revised):

Apple Guy: Hey man, aren't PCs boring?
experienced PC user: DUDE STAY AWAY FROM ME, OKAY?
Apple Guy: Chill out it's cool. We have like so many colors for Mac. PC only comes in like 5 colors.
experienced PC user: I AM GOING TO FUCKING KILL YOU.
Apple Guy: It's okay man, it's okay...Fine I'll lower the price to like $1750 how does that sound?
experienced PC user: I CAN GET AN HP-Laptop with the same specs and quality for $500 bucks. I am a student. Why in the hell would I buy that over-priced shit? I am on cup-ramen as it is.
Apple Guy: But you will be the envy of all your friends...
experienced PC user: SHUT THE FUCK UP, I NEED TO EAT IN ORDER TO LIVE SO THAT I CAN USE A COMPUTER.

[Exaggerated and Dramatized, but you get the point]

[iindigo]

In my eyes, two things are keeping Apple out of the enterprise market:

1. No cheapass computer to be bought en masse for employees. The Mac mini comes closest, but is still about $300 or $400 more expensive than the $200 and $300 junkboxes Dell will sell them.
2. Companies are unwilling to rewrite their inhouse software. So many companies make extensive use of custom-built in-house software. This wouldn't be bad, except this software is typically written hundreds of times worse than your average consumer application and leans on very specific parts of Windows - we're talking legacy code that should have been axed years ago. Sometimes these applications even require IE 5 or 6 to run.

So even if Apple did try to cater to that market, it wouldn't do them all that much good since these companies won't want to pay someone to rewrite their software. Apple would not only have to match or best Dell, etc in the cost sector but also have to pay the company or offer some other huge incentive to get them to even --consider-- switching.

And now you see why Apple has little interest in enterprise.


Also, keep in mind that despite the state of the economy and Apple's lackluster marketing, consumer marketshare is still slowly shifting towards Macs. At this point, Apple has approx. 10% of the entire internet-using population, up from 5-6% a few years ago.