Author Topic: Fansubs: Where do you stand? (Read 5285 times)

Kaiuri · « **Reply #20 on:** March 04, 2009, 11:25:58 AM »

I believe that alot of people are "Fansub extremists" before and a shortly after they have subsribed at boxt. I was that way when i started my journey into the depths of anime, not caring about quality, licensing or fansubers. But after a while and after have taking part of this community i started realising things and started caring more about quality and subbers. Summary, i took in the knowledge of the people of the community.
When you go through all that and get immersed into the community you become a "Average Internet-saavy Anime Fan". Or atleast that is what i think.

MTR · « **Reply #21 on:** March 04, 2009, 01:14:35 PM »

When I first signed up for Boxtorrents and first got high speed Internet, I was definitely classified in the Fansub Extremists category. I was in middle school at the time and had no money at all, and the idea of getting 100% free and on-demand was brilliant. Granted, at the time I did not know that doing so was a violation of copyright laws and all that crap, and after I learned, I really didn't care either and simply continued to download everything.

It wasn't until the anime industry started to slip that I realized I should stop my ways. I'm in the Average Internet-saavy Anime Fan category now. Most of the anime I download is unlicensed, and the little licensed anime that I do download, I use as a sample. If after a few episodes I don't like it, I stop watching it. If I do like it enough to keep watching, instead of downloading it, I will either rent it from the library (a fantastic substitute to downloading, if I may recommend it) or go and buy it. The same goes for unlicensed shows. If they become licensed in the future and I watched the fansub in the past and liked it, I will buy it.

I have more money now (although still unemployed technically...), so I do have money I can spend on anime and supporting the industry. One thing I never do though is buy full retail price, right off the shelves. I think $30 is insane for a single anime DVD (a boxset, that is more reasonable, but if I can get it for less I will). I buy all of my anime through Amazon Marketplace for the most part (occasionally I will also use TRSI's Bargain Bin). Using them I have been able to get singles for as low as $0.76, and boxsets for as low as $15. Yes, they are marked on Amazon as "Used", and I know some people cringe at that word (I don't personally, considering most of the clothes I wear I bought at a thrift store, but that's the downfalls to being poor =P), but quite a bit of the stuff I've bought off Amazon has been in New and perfect condition, even with the Used label attached to it.

I guess you could say my general stance on fansubs is I think they can help the industry when used correctly. I realize I am probably in the wrong place to be telling a lot of people this and it will get completely ignored (I've tried before), but people need to stop being greedy. You should use fansubs as a way of previewing function instead of an ownership function. For those who come back with the excuse "two or three episodes isn't enough to preview a series", than use the Internet to your advantage. You have the ability to download the whole show without paying for it and watching it for free, do it. If AFTER watching the show you really like it, than give back to the people that made the show for you to like. Support the industry and buy the DVD or BluRay. Without them, you wouldn't have anime to watch in the first place.

mgz · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2009, 01:37:00 PM »

Quote from: Temuthril on March 04, 2009, 06:54:00 AM

Quote
prices too high

Japanese DVD prices, etc.

just because japanese dvd prices are much higher then ours doesnt mean a high price is acceptable.

vuzedome · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2009, 01:48:24 PM »

Buy only what you really like/love.
Support the Anime you love.
Buy anything you can related to that Anime.

This is what I follow. And luckily I only ever liked/loved and still like/love a few series.
But the problem is, the one that I really want is way out of my reach(both pocket and shipping).

oh... and I picked the middle one.

Tatsujin · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2009, 03:38:12 PM »

Quote from: mgz on March 04, 2009, 01:37:00 PM

Quote from: Temuthril on March 04, 2009, 06:54:00 AM
Quote
prices too high

Japanese DVD prices, etc.
just because japanese dvd prices are much higher then ours doesnt mean a high price is acceptable.

I think a full set of 12 episodes should be around 25-30 US dollars for Blu-ray, the DVD versions should be around 20 US dollars, and 24 episodes should double the price.

I saw FMP: Second Raid for 45 US dollars, now thats 13 freaking episodes ... THIRTEEN. Regardless of how popular the anime is, it all comes down to what you get. Seriously, you can purchase episodes for no more than 2 dollars on funimation website, DVDs are cheap as hell now, so whats the point? the prints or whatever thats inside of it? i dunno. but 45 US dollars for 13 episodes and specifically on DVD, is not worth it.

miwasuzuki · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2009, 04:48:25 PM »

i'm just an average internet savvy fan.

Tatsujin · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:05:16 PM »

Quote from: miwasuzuki on March 04, 2009, 04:48:25 PM

i'm just an average internet savvy fan.

i'll side with that as well.

dbml · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:14:51 PM »

Quote from: MTR on March 04, 2009, 01:14:35 PM

You should use fansubs as a way of previewing function instead of an ownership function. For those who come back with the excuse "two or three episodes isn't enough to preview a series", than use the Internet to your advantage. You have the ability to download the whole show without paying for it and watching it for free, do it. If AFTER watching the show you really like it, than give back to the people that made the show for you to like. Support the industry and buy the DVD or BluRay. Without them, you wouldn't have anime to watch in the first place.

Agreed. Prior to downloading online, I used Netflix to preview various series to see if they were worth buying or not. But with the way prices are, I can't afford to buy even 1/4 of the series that I enjoyed. I'll only splurge if it becomes one of my favorite series... and even then it has to be reasonably priced.

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 04, 2009, 03:38:12 PM

I saw FMP: Second Raid for 45 US dollars, now thats 13 freaking episodes ... THIRTEEN. Regardless of how popular the anime is, it all comes down to what you get. Seriously, you can purchase episodes for no more than 2 dollars on funimation website, DVDs are cheap as hell now, so whats the point? the prints or whatever thats inside of it? i dunno. but 45 US dollars for 13 episodes and specifically on DVD, is not worth it.

FMP happens to be one of my favorite series, but I wouldn't pay that much either. There's only so much a poor college student can afford

mgz · « **Reply #28 on:** March 04, 2009, 05:59:10 PM »

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 04, 2009, 03:38:12 PM

Quote from: mgz on March 04, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: Temuthril on March 04, 2009, 06:54:00 AM
Quote
prices too high

Japanese DVD prices, etc.
just because japanese dvd prices are much higher then ours doesnt mean a high price is acceptable.
I think a full set of 12 episodes should be around 25-30 US dollars for Blu-ray, the DVD versions should be around 20 US dollars, and 24 episodes should double the price.

I saw FMP: Second Raid for 45 US dollars, now thats 13 freaking episodes ... THIRTEEN. Regardless of how popular the anime is, it all comes down to what you get. Seriously, you can purchase episodes for no more than 2 dollars on funimation website, DVDs are cheap as hell now, so whats the point? the prints or whatever thats inside of it? i dunno. but 45 US dollars for 13 episodes and specifically on DVD, is not worth it.

biggest reason i disagree with this is, unlike movies how many times are you going to rewatch most series ? I know if i wasnt downloading anime for free and had to buy it i wouldnt watch much anime because a majority of anime is worth purchasing on dvd IMO. I would have all of like 3 series.
I dont think its to hard to believe that alot of other people would probably be in a similar boat.

IMO

12/13 episode series on dvd OR bluray(prices shouldnt really be different anymore) - 15-20 tops
24-26 episode series on dvd OR bluray(prices shouldnt really be different anymore) - 25-30, 35 if your really pushing it
52 + - 80 cents an episode if its only 52 episodes 55 or 60 cents and episode if its 100+

Tatsujin · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2009, 06:23:33 PM »

Quote from: mgz on March 04, 2009, 05:59:10 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 04, 2009, 03:38:12 PM
Quote from: mgz on March 04, 2009, 01:37:00 PM
Quote from: Temuthril on March 04, 2009, 06:54:00 AM
Quote
prices too high

Japanese DVD prices, etc.
just because japanese dvd prices are much higher then ours doesnt mean a high price is acceptable.
I think a full set of 12 episodes should be around 25-30 US dollars for Blu-ray, the DVD versions should be around 20 US dollars, and 24 episodes should double the price.

I saw FMP: Second Raid for 45 US dollars, now thats 13 freaking episodes ... THIRTEEN. Regardless of how popular the anime is, it all comes down to what you get. Seriously, you can purchase episodes for no more than 2 dollars on funimation website, DVDs are cheap as hell now, so whats the point? the prints or whatever thats inside of it? i dunno. but 45 US dollars for 13 episodes and specifically on DVD, is not worth it.
biggest reason i disagree with this is, unlike movies how many times are you going to rewatch most series ? I know if i wasnt downloading anime for free and had to buy it i wouldnt watch much anime because a majority of anime is worth purchasing on dvd IMO. I would have all of like 3 series.
I dont think its to hard to believe that alot of other people would probably be in a similar boat.

IMO

12/13 episode series on dvd OR bluray(prices shouldnt really be different anymore) - 15-20 tops
24-26 episode series on dvd OR bluray(prices shouldnt really be different anymore) - 25-30, 35 if your really pushing it
52 + - 80 cents an episode if its only 52 episodes 55 or 60 cents and episode if its 100+

thank you for clarifying that. yes, dvd and blu-ray prices are like a slim difference in-between now, and the actual cost of a blu-ray disc is cheap as hell to companies and dvds are much cheapier as well. but seriously, hope someone in funimation reads this and consider the price tags on their anime.

dankles · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:06:58 PM »

Fansubs introduced me to the larger community of anime. With out fansubs, I wouldn't be into anime. And because I wouldn't be into anime, I wouldn't have bought all the series that I have. therefore, sales would go down for anime producers.
So in my situation, Anime producers have profited off of fansubers.

MTR · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2009, 07:23:18 PM »

Quote from: dankles on March 04, 2009, 07:06:58 PM

Fansubs introduced me to the larger community of anime. With out fansubs, I wouldn't be into anime. And because I wouldn't be into anime, I wouldn't have bought all the series that I have. therefore, sales would go down for anime producers.
So in my situation, Anime producers have profited off of fansubers.

The same goes for me. Without fansubs, there would be a ton of series that I never knew I liked enough to buy, and even more that I never would ahve thought about watching or buying. They really can be an asset to the industry when people use them correctly and don't go crazy and greedy.

Zalis116 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 05, 2009, 02:20:39 AM »

Quote from: iindigo

- DVD Extremists
This highly self-righteous, catalogue-thumping group more or less believes that creation and watching of fansubs are two of the seven deadly sins and feel that fansubs are one of the primary reasons for declining R1 DVD sales, trouble/closure of licensing companies and studios, the birthrate decline in Japan, global warming, the recession, and their Cheerios being soggy in the morning. Many in this group don't even know of the existence of 99% of non-R1 titles and often prefer heavily localized dubs over subtitles. They buy DVDs very often and generally feel that waiting for companies to "get their act together" is no excuse for not buying DVDs.

Now why am I thinking that you had a specific individual or individuals from ANN in mind when you wrote this description?

To avoid writing [too many] WALLS OF TEXT, I'll just answer the questions about my stance.

I'd put myself somewhere between "internet-savvy otaku" and "DVD extremist." My collection is made up of fansubs, DVD-rips, and actual DVDs. DVDs were either bought blindly, or after seeing the fansubs/rips. My own purchasing increased significantly after I started downloading. I watch a mix of subs and dubs. Usually sub by default, unless I've already seen the subbed version or I have reason to be interested in the dubs for the first run. I don't morally condemn anybody for not buying DVDs, because I certainly haven't bought everything I've seen, to say the least. I still believe it's the right thing to do, because it puts money in the global system that allows for the continued production of anime. But to go along with that, I believe official versions (both the plain no-nonsense subtitles, and the English dubs, a fair amount of the time), are worth watching and worth buying, unless I seriously disliked the show in question. Or if the official release is seriously screwed up, which does not happen often.

Translation "style" preference: "Liberal" translations, AKA the a.f.k. model of fansubbing. Subtitles or dub scripts that feature flowing, natural English that might be used in actual conversation by native English speakers. That's not to say "erase all traces of Japaneseness"; I'm confident that a balance can be struck between preserving the original culture and not sounding completely awkward when rendering the content into English. Notes should be used sparingly, and avoided when it's possible make the same point in English without forcing viewers to pause or do outside research. For instance, Eclipse's Akane-iro ni somaru saka had a line about Junichi being "A carrier of the chuuni byou," with a note saying something like "Chuuni byou refers to a 'sickness' felt by some students around their second year of middle school, who feel that the world of adults is corrupt and don't want to grow up." Then they used the same term again 4-5 episodes later, and I sure hope people were able to remember it. What I would've done instead: "Junichi has a Peter Pan Complex." Recognizable concept to English-speaking viewers, and communicates the intent of the dialogue ("Junichi doesn't want to grow up") without lengthy notes that detract from the action or the entertainment value of those scenes.

Oh, and incidentally, I answered "No negative or positive effects" in the poll. Even if fansubs/downloads do have a negative effect, the absence of those things does not have a corresponding positive effect. The "fansub haters" would have us believe, "We would've gotten away with sky-high sales, if not for those meddling fansub kids!" But of all the non-fansubbed series to be released in the last 5-7 years, I've never heard of any of them being exceptional or even above average sellers. Sure, most of them eventually get made available as R1 rips, but they don't get high download numbers. List of example series:

(click to show/hide)

iindigo · « **Reply #33 on:** March 05, 2009, 03:03:43 AM »

Quote from: Zalis116 on March 05, 2009, 02:20:39 AM

Quote from: iindigo
- DVD Extremists
This highly self-righteous, catalogue-thumping group more or less believes that creation and watching of fansubs are two of the seven deadly sins and feel that fansubs are one of the primary reasons for declining R1 DVD sales, trouble/closure of licensing companies and studios, the birthrate decline in Japan, global warming, the recession, and their Cheerios being soggy in the morning. Many in this group don't even know of the existence of 99% of non-R1 titles and often prefer heavily localized dubs over subtitles. They buy DVDs very often and generally feel that waiting for companies to "get their act together" is no excuse for not buying DVDs.
Now why am I thinking that you had a specific individual or individuals from ANN in mind when you wrote this description?

Aheh, yep... Not too long ago I was introduced to these characters when I got into an argument with them over fansubs, the state of the industry, the need for companies to meet the demands of modern foreign otaku (like us) in order to succeed, online anime services and how they should work, and last but not least subtitle styling. I don't think I've ever met anybody that was so firm about the industry staying as it is - it's almost as they wished everything went back to the pre-2000 state when the primary source of anime was dubbed TV, tapes, and DVDs unless you wanted to put up with the low quality of the (then rare) fansubbed tapes. Obviously, I also found their self-righteousness incredibly annoying; in their eyes, they are perfect angels that are far above fansub-watching trash, and according to them if you expect to be able to watch what's airing in Japan within a reasonable amount of time at high quality, you're an entitled bastard and need to learn to wait 3+ years for stuff to come across the ocean.

And yeah, I agree with your point on licensed titles... People might be inclined to buy more DVDs if they actually licensed and dubbed stuff that people have actually heard of and are interested in...

Aneroph · « **Reply #34 on:** March 17, 2009, 12:30:09 PM »

Fansubs are so much better than DVD's. First off, with the amount of anime I watch I would have entire store rooms full of DVD's if I bought every series. Scondly, Fansubbs do a very nice job of picking readable yet stylish fonts, you get karaoke timing on endings/openings with romaji and kanji, and they usually do a nice job of color and placement of translating on-screen kanji. Personally, instead of the licensing companies bitching about fansubbers, they should hire the fansubbers and have some sort of system to pay for the downloads. I know I would gladly pay for fansubbed series. Then I wouldn't have to take up a lot of wasted space with DVD's and I wouldn't have to sit around and wait for the DVD's to arrive in the mail. Of course, the first episodes would have to be free so that you could test the quality of the episodes and subs. I am sure someone will poke numerous holes in this idea but I honestly hate to download so much anime that I LOVE and have no other way to support then to buy pointless DVD's.

Killbasas · « **Reply #35 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:40:25 PM »

On this question, I'm in the midle. Both extremes are unhealthy. I started watching anime back in 1991, some animes were legit, some fansubed and copied from the copy of the copy of the copy of some random VHS (you get the idea). So today, when you young otakus have such an easy way to get the anime series, I say this - both are importaint. In the end, isn't the most importaint thing to enjoy anime? So download, buy and watch anime, what ever floats your boat. And remember, in some countries fansubs are the only way to get your hands on anime

Tatsujin · « **Reply #36 on:** March 17, 2009, 05:48:05 PM »

Quote from: Killbasas on March 17, 2009, 04:40:25 PM

On this question, I'm in the midle. Both extremes are unhealthy. I started watching anime back in 1991, some animes were legit, some fansubed and copied from the copy of the copy of the copy of some random VHS (you get the idea). So today, when you young otakus have such an easy way to get the anime series, I say this - both are importaint. In the end, isn't the most importaint thing to enjoy anime? So download, buy and watch anime, what ever floats your boat. And remember, in some countries fansubs are the only way to get your hands on anime

Another thing I'd like to add is that companies, anime specifically, will make money based on the anime they are releasing, the popularity of both the company's name and the anime, and other merchandise which cannot be acquired through the internet -- like figures for example. I'm gonna be wasting some money on that Black Miku figure, so there you go.

mgz · « **Reply #37 on:** March 17, 2009, 06:05:28 PM »

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 17, 2009, 05:48:05 PM

Quote from: Killbasas on March 17, 2009, 04:40:25 PM
On this question, I'm in the midle. Both extremes are unhealthy. I started watching anime back in 1991, some animes were legit, some fansubed and copied from the copy of the copy of the copy of some random VHS (you get the idea). So today, when you young otakus have such an easy way to get the anime series, I say this - both are importaint. In the end, isn't the most importaint thing to enjoy anime? So download, buy and watch anime, what ever floats your boat. And remember, in some countries fansubs are the only way to get your hands on anime
Another thing I'd like to add is that companies, anime specifically, will make money based on the anime they are releasing, the popularity of both the company's name and the anime, and other merchandise which cannot be acquired through the internet -- like figures for example. I'm gonna be wasting some money on that Black Miku figure, so there you go.

but most figure companies arent owned by funimation.
You can get a figure from a japanese company and it dont matter cuz it doesnt need to be in english

Tatsujin · « **Reply #38 on:** March 17, 2009, 06:08:29 PM »

Quote from: mgz on March 17, 2009, 06:05:28 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 17, 2009, 05:48:05 PM
Quote from: Killbasas on March 17, 2009, 04:40:25 PM
On this question, I'm in the midle. Both extremes are unhealthy. I started watching anime back in 1991, some animes were legit, some fansubed and copied from the copy of the copy of the copy of some random VHS (you get the idea). So today, when you young otakus have such an easy way to get the anime series, I say this - both are importaint. In the end, isn't the most importaint thing to enjoy anime? So download, buy and watch anime, what ever floats your boat. And remember, in some countries fansubs are the only way to get your hands on anime
Another thing I'd like to add is that companies, anime specifically, will make money based on the anime they are releasing, the popularity of both the company's name and the anime, and other merchandise which cannot be acquired through the internet -- like figures for example. I'm gonna be wasting some money on that Black Miku figure, so there you go.
but most figure companies arent owned by funimation.
You can get a figure from a japanese company and it dont matter cuz it doesnt need to be in english

oh sorry, i don't support funimation. and i think i've already re-stated this before, AiR TV will be coming on Blu-ray this april so you bet I'm going to purchase it, as long as its on a reasonable price.

Killbasas · « **Reply #39 on:** March 17, 2009, 06:11:36 PM »

Quote from: Tatsujin on March 17, 2009, 05:48:05 PM

and other merchandise which cannot be acquired through the internet -- like figures for example. I'm gonna be wasting some money on that Black Miku figure, so there you go.

Umm... You can get figurines by internet... Find a site that sels them, order pay in a post office when it arives/pay in advanced, they send it by mail = figure bought on the internet... Thats where my Ray (NGE), Starscream and few other figures come from... Just so you know...

Last time I looked on eBay they had like twenty diferent ones...