Author Topic: Digital Cameras.  (Read 5803 times)

Offline Tatsujin

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Digital Cameras.
« on: March 10, 2009, 02:37:39 AM »
Refering to Boxtorrents members -- I'm in need of one. I have not purchased one, ever. I'm trying to understand the features for Digital Cameras.

Optical Zoom? Digital Zoom? Effective Pixel?

All these things are like shapes and triangles and Pie's (3.14~) and shit like that. I don't understand alot of these things.

What should I be looking for? I need a camera that has a very good capture image and nice resolution (bigger the better, kind of).


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Offline geoffreak

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:53:15 AM »
Optical zoom is the physical zoom. This leads to the same quality of image zoomed out as zoomed in.
Digital zoom is the same as taking an image, cropping a section, and sizing the section at the same size as the original. The quality is crap.
Don't worry about megapixel ratings. Those are just a marketing term. More megapixels are better, but that doesn't mean that a camera with a higher megapixel rating could create worse quality images than a lower megapixel rated camera.
Look for cameras with higher shutter speeds, as these end up with fewer blurry shots.
Most all cameras are digital now, but if you want portability over quality go for a camera that can fit in a pocket.

Offline GoGeTa006

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 03:06:06 AM »
yup just like geofreak said. . .megapixels dont really matter THAT MUCH

megapixels only represent the highest possible resolution of the image. say a VGA camera holds up to 640x480 (correct me if im wrong) and 2 megapixels (the "average" on new cellphones) can go up to 1600x1200 or something around that. . .cant recall correctly

I work with a photographer, his old 1400 dlls cameras are like 12 megapixels. . . I mean you can get an 8 megapixel camera right now for not too much. . .

Im guessing you are just going to use the camera for "civilian" purposes. . . so just take in consideration the optical zoom first, id go for shuter count second, size , battery life, megapixels. (in that order)


the point about that 12 megapixel camera I was talking bout is the format in which it takes pictures. . . most cameras go jpeg high quality (i dont know about modern cheap civilian cameras) but the pro cameras take the "Raw" format. . .which is some presto magico format that miraculously captures a "moment" more than a pictures  . . .

you dont have to read the spoiiler :p
(click to show/hide)
but well. . .you dont need a raw format. . .jpeg is more than enough.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2009, 12:46:05 AM by GoGeTa006 »

Offline bloody000

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 06:06:09 AM »
If you just need a camera to snap some photos and are not too serious about photography, most $200 cameras from major brands are fine. They take reasonably good pictures, have generally good performance andd have enough features for most people.
The deciding factors should be, in my view, how the camera feels. things like shape, camera control layout, menus, etc are more important if you're gonna use it often.
All you have to do is study it out. Just study it out.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 07:23:12 AM »
Before you shop (OR LEARN), you need to decide what you want to do with your camera.   This, is probably the best advice I can give you.  Think - do you want to just play around and take pics of you, your friends, family, stuff,  ... or do you want to make art and/or money?

====
What I'm saying in this section - is more geared to if you're serious about photography.  Think - if you want to make art, do amateur photography as a hobby, or get started on a path to professional photography.

(click to show/hide)
====

The reason for RAW format is this: 

RAW format captures exactly what the photo sensor sees.  Normally, the camera's electronics will process the image, do white balancing, color correction, etc.   RAW does none of this.   You load the image on the PC - and your PC does processing with a program like ViewNX, Photoshop, etc.   Your PC can do far more complex correction and processing on the image than the camera can do - hence - color correction and perfection.

If I were you, rather than ask here - you may want to pick up a digital photography book and give it a read.  You'll get an idea of what the graphs, numbers, etc are - and what everything means - plus - you'll take better pictures. :)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 07:26:41 AM by kyanwan »
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Offline rl9009

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 06:40:01 AM »
D40x? Our school already has 5 D70s lying around the CADD lab!

For the mid level enthusiast, buy the Canon SX100IS. It has a 10x Optical Zoom which makes it really good for long range photography   :o

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 04:43:01 AM »
For digital cameras, there's basically two types to consider based on the type of zoom. There's the typical one where the lens moves outside of the camera Horizontal from you. And the one with an internal lens. The only issue I have with the normal type of lens is that the plastic shutter can be moved with the hand. Also, if you run out of battery, the lens doesn't close properly and sticks out. (Quite annoying). The internal lens makes the camera more compact but has the lens right on the camera box. For people who aren't used to it, they have an tendency to touch the lens with their finger.

Again as said before Mega Pixels are not important. Even if you have a max of 10 Mega Pixels, you probably wont use it due to the size of the files. Personally I only use 3MP for pictures, maybe 5. I'll only use the max when I want to take a random scenery pic.

You might also want to try the weight of the cameras. Nikon and Canon are ok... but 99% are boring silver in color. It's also damn light which is good, yet easier to drop than a nicely weight camera and also easier to crack.

I personally use a Sony DSC T10. I like how it's black and not silver, how the lens is an internal one and how it's a nice metal setup that doesn't feel cheap and is a nice weight to hold in the hand. (Some of the cameras feel as if the lens is heavier than the actual camera components itself.
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Offline Malific

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2009, 08:51:55 PM »
<<---  Is an Ex Best Buy digital camera salesman.

MegaPixels in relation to photo quality:
3 = 3 1/2 inch by 5 inch photo (what you get when you develop a toss away camera)
5 = 8x10  (That school portrait you hate that's on your mom's wall and she insists on showing everyone.)
8 = 16x20 (The picture of the guy who just died that sits up by the coffin)
10+ = posters  (you hang them on your wall... they usually come rolled up)

Things to know:
Zoom:
You want Optical over Digital, As said above Digital is nothing more than a crop and enlarge and it degrades your photo quality. Don't get higher than x5 unless you plan on using a tripod, or steadying the camera on a stationary object. At the higher level zooms, the tension of your muscles makes it's virtually impossible to take a fully zoomed picture by hand without noticeable blur.

Internal Vs External Zoom:
External is when the lens extends outwards form the camera, and moves in and out as you zoom.  These have little motors and are susceptible to dust getting in the cracks and jamming the works. They are also the most common, if you get one of these get a case to keep the dust out.

Internal, The lens doesn't extend, you find it in most "flat" cameras like the Sony T series. None of the weakness of the Externals, but you'll pay more for them, Especially if they zoom higher than x3.

Cases:
You almost ALWAYS want to buy a case for your camera, make sure it seals to keep out dust, and has good padding. Dust + Dropping = 99% of all Digital cameras going bad. Slim Cameras + back pockets = cracked LCD screens.

Durability:
Not all cameras are built the same, if the case feels plasticy and loose chances are you're camera won't last beyond the first drop. Solid metal feel FTW.

LCD Screen:
It's fluff, the picture you took is almost always better looking than what you see on the screen. Bigger screen = better quality to see it and show friends, but you pay for the size.

Lens Quality
All the mega pixels in the world aren't going to help you if you've just got a polished glass lens in there instead of some high quality stuff. Each company has there own lens supplier: see below.

Memory:
Different Companies use different Cards, so if you have stuff that runs on a certain type, pick that company.

::EDIT::
Missed an option
Battery:
You can usually pick between Cameras that run on AA and Camera's with Rechargeable Battery Packs. The recharges are more expensive, But those are usually the cameras that work better and last longer. 50% of the AA battery Camera's are Pieces of $#!^, so if you go that way try to stay on the high end of the dollar sign with them, or buy a Cannon, Sony, or Kodak ONLY. The exception to this rule are the "fake" SLR type cameras, you'll know them because they have BIG external Zoom lenses (not detachable ones, just big) which usually get between x8 and x12 zoom. These guys are okay to buy and for some reason were still running off AA's when i was at Best Buy... but then they're also in the higher price ranges.
::EDIT::

Break down by Company, General pros and cons:

Kodak: Very Easy to use, Used to be polished glass lenses but upgraded to a German lens a few years back. They do a lot of bundle stuff with printers, EasyShare Printers are actually pretty good and have the longest lasting Pictures I've seen... We taped one to the floor of our department and walked on it for about 2 months before a new cleaning guy threw it away, got a little scuffed but that was it. Had another in a bottle of water, the paper backing dissolved after about 6 months but the picture itself was fine.
Really good software if you have no idea how to do anything with photos on your own.
Durability: B - They run the gambit from loose plastic to solid metal, you get what you pay for.
Lens: A-
Memory: SD cards
Ease of Use: It was made for your grandma.

Nikon: A little tricky to use for beginners, Best lenses out there. Cases leave a bit to be desired on low end models.
Durability: C
Lens: A+
Memory: SD cards
Ease of Use: At least glance through the manual, it's not a pick up and go.

Sony: Pick up and go, Great lenses, solid builds.  I Buy Sony.
Durability:A-B
Lens: A
Memory: Sony Memory Sticks
Ease of Use: Simply menus for learning on the go through the camera itself.

Fuji: A lot like Kodak, but without the insanely simple ease of use.
Durability: B Another gambit runner from good to bad.
Lens: B
Memory: xD cards back when I was in Best buy, but they were planning on phasing into something else at the time.
Ease of Use: Helpful menus. You'll want to check a few things in the manual.

Canon: Good all around. Very durable.
Durability: A
Lens: B
Memory: SD cards
Ease of use: B

HP: *snickers*
They Have Absolutely Beautiful LCD screens...


My basic thoughts.
If you want the very best and are willing to put out big Bucks, Go Nikon, Their top of the line cameras beat everyone elses in the same area, by "top of the line" I'm referring to Professional and Semi Professional grade SLR cameras or the $600+ price range..  After them I'd go Sony then Canon, mainly because Sony has the edge in lens quality. After that I'd take Kodak over a Fuji, because they're very similar, but Kodak uses SD memory which is cheap as hell and is used in just about everything. HP... *snickers* Yeah if you want a really good, gigantic LCD screen to show off your crappy pictures to your friends.. You put out enough money and you'll get a good camera from them, but you could probably get a better one in another brand.. HP just hasn't been in the game long enough to compete yet. If you're going to go bargain basement price, do Kodak their bare minimum cameras are pretty decent, or get a Nikon for the Lens quality.. just don't drop it.

One thing I can't stress enough YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR If you buy cheap you'll get cheap, so PLEASE don't buy that 8 megapixel camera in the sealed plastic package hanging on the hook over there because it's a $100 cheaper than the same thing in a better brand name, you'll regret it hugely. Most of those el cheapos use polished PLASTIC lenses...
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 09:30:17 PM by Malific »

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2009, 04:50:03 PM »
<<---  Is an Ex Best Buy digital camera salesman.

;) 

Some people would run the other way hearing you say that. 

You should also have noted - big LCDs eat battery life.   If you want the best of both worlds - DSLR offers you real optical viewfinders - WYSIWYG - when you look through the viewfinder .... plus, the battery life on DSLR is bounds better than the all digital/powered viewfinders.  Not to mention, the largest, clearest LCDs are all on DSLRs.  If you need it, you have it.  But if you don't need it - it turns itself off - so your camera takes more pictures instead of showing them. 

If you've got any seriousness about photography - do yourself a favor and get a DSLR - don't waste money on a point & shoot.   You'll thank (us all) later.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 04:53:58 PM by kyanwan »
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Offline fohfoh

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2009, 06:19:00 PM »
DSLRs are nice, but big and clunky. I don't need a DSLR to take pics of myself and friends being stupid while bowling or something. A simple P&S(Yes I know what this sounds like) is good enough.
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Offline Malific

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 09:19:18 PM »
<<---  Is an Ex Best Buy digital camera salesman.

;) 

Some people would run the other way hearing you say that. 

You should also have noted - big LCDs eat battery life.   If you want the best of both worlds - DSLR offers you real optical viewfinders - WYSIWYG - when you look through the viewfinder .... plus, the battery life on DSLR is bounds better than the all digital/powered viewfinders.  Not to mention, the largest, clearest LCDs are all on DSLRs.  If you need it, you have it.  But if you don't need it - it turns itself off - so your camera takes more pictures instead of showing them. 

If you've got any seriousness about photography - do yourself a favor and get a DSLR - don't waste money on a point & shoot.   You'll thank (us all) later.  ;)

Let me rephrase then, "Is an Ex Best Buy digital camera salesman that actually knows WTH he's talking about."

I didn't go into screens because I considered it a bit obvious, and didn't go into DSLRs because of the nature of the original question, I figured simply mentioning them as a "professional grade" camera would be all the idea about them that was needed.

Aside from that, I agree 100% with everything you've said.

Offline bloody000

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 10:34:49 PM »
This may sound obvious, but read reviews before you make purchases. Don't trust any brand too much, the P&S market is full of marketing BS and OEM models.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2009, 10:37:44 PM by bloody000 »
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Offline costi

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2009, 10:56:10 PM »
Quote
More megapixels are better, but that doesn't mean that a camera with a higher megapixel rating could create worse quality images than a lower megapixel rated camera.
Actually, in 99% of cases, that is exactly the case - with the same sensor size, a sensor with more megapixels will give worse images than the one with less. Reason: with increasing pixel count, the sensor density increases, and with that - noise. No matter how many pixels you have, if the whole image is covered in colored dots, it looks like shit, and there's very little you can do about too much noise.

A rule of thumb for maximum number of pixels that won't have an effect on quality is:
- 8 MPix for a compact camera/hybrid
- 12-15Mpix for a DSLR with APS-C sized sensor (everything except Nikon D700, D1, D2, D2x, D3, D3x, Canon single-digit models and Sony A900)
- 15-20 Mpix for a DSLR with full-frame sensor (all the ones specifically mentioned above)

Of course, ISO and noise performance may vary between models due to different image processing algorythms and different technology of the sensor (CMOS is better than CCD - a 12Mpix Nikon D300 has smaller noise on ISO 3200 than a 6Mpix D70s on ISO 800).

As for what to buy:
- if you're just looking for something to shoot pictures at parties, grab a small compact camera that will fit in your pocket; however, buy one that allows you to use manual exposure settings - this way, if you get more into photography, you'll have more control over your pictures. Also, look for something that has the lower focal length as short as possible (less that 30mm in film equialent is perfect) - it'll help a lot with indoor shots. A hotshoe for an external flash is an added bonus.
- if you know you'll get seriously into photography, grab a DSLR. If you don't want to spend too much money, or need something small, get something from Olympus (the new E-620 is sweet), they have the best value for money. Pentax is kind of a niche system, but it has some interesting points.
Canon and Nikon are the two biggest brands with the widest selection of bodies, lenses and accesories. I'd say they are priced about the same, and have similar features, so the choice is more in ergonomy. Nikons are built like tanks - rather big and bulky, tough, very well laid-out, easy to use. Canons feel lighter and flimsier, but they're still tough and solid. I don't like the layout of Canon bodies, though - some things are hidden ridiculously deep in the menus, while in a Nikon I have them available at my fingertip (for example, flash sync modes).
The choice between Canon and Nikon is mostly about personal preference. You need to hold some cameras yourself to see how they suit you. The more important thing is to look through the lens selection, and seeif there are any lenses you like in either system - if yes, go for it. In the end, it's mostly the lens that decides about the quality of the photo.

Oh, and don't buy a hybrid camera (a compact with a huge zoom) - they combine all the flaws of compacts (shitty optics and sensors) and DSLRs (size weight, price), with none of the advantages.

Quote
Internal Vs External Zoom:
External is when the lens extends outwards form the camera, and moves in and out as you zoom.  These have little motors and are susceptible to dust getting in the cracks and jamming the works. They are also the most common, if you get one of these get a case to keep the dust out.

Internal, The lens doesn't extend, you find it in most "flat" cameras like the Sony T series. None of the weakness of the Externals, but you'll pay more for them, Especially if they zoom higher than x3.
Every autofocus lens has a motor, internal or external focusing has nothing to do with it. There has to be something that moves elements of the lens as the camera focuses. In Nikons the motormay be located inside the body, driving the lens via a screw in the mount.

Quote
If you've got any seriousness about photography - do yourself a favor and get a DSLR - don't waste money on a point & shoot.   You'll thank (us all) later.
Actually, apart from my D300 and lensses, filters, etc. I always have a small point and shoot in my pocket. Sometimes it's impractical to use a DSLR, or I just don't want to wave one around (or I might violently part with it), or it's in my backpack and there's no time to reach for one, or I have the wrong lens, or whatever. In these cases a small, handy camera that's readily available can make a difference between taking a shot and missing one.
Besides, often I don't feel like taking the D300 to a party - I don't need that much quality to take pictures of a drinking contest, and if something happens to it, my bank balance will suffer ;)

Quote
The main difference between THIS camera and the D80 - is it only works with DX lenses.
Ummm... both the D40x and the D80 (and any other Nikon APS-C camera) work with both DX and FX lenses. The difference between the two is that the D40x lacks the AF motor in the body, so with some lenses you're stuck with manual focusing (examples include the awesome 50mm/1.8 G, which is one of the best lenses Nikon has to offer, and one of the cheapest ones). Also, in both the exposure meter won't work with old MF lenses, tho they'll still take perfectly good photos and focus confirmation works - you'll just need to set the exposure manually using an external meter or trial and error.

Offline bloody000

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 08:47:56 AM »
Quote
More megapixels are better, but that doesn't mean that a camera with a higher megapixel rating could create worse quality images than a lower megapixel rated camera.
Actually, in 99% of cases, that is exactly the case - with the same sensor size, a sensor with more megapixels will give worse images than the one with less. Reason: with increasing pixel count, the sensor density increases, and with that - noise. No matter how many pixels you have, if the whole image is covered in colored dots, it looks like shit, and there's very little you can do about too much noise.


Unless there's a leap of sensor technology, of course.
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Offline Malific

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 03:12:31 AM »

Quote
Internal Vs External Zoom:
External is when the lens extends outwards form the camera, and moves in and out as you zoom.  These have little motors and are susceptible to dust getting in the cracks and jamming the works. They are also the most common, if you get one of these get a case to keep the dust out.

Internal, The lens doesn't extend, you find it in most "flat" cameras like the Sony T series. None of the weakness of the Externals, but you'll pay more for them, Especially if they zoom higher than x3.
Every autofocus lens has a motor, internal or external focusing has nothing to do with it. There has to be something that moves elements of the lens as the camera focuses. In Nikons the motormay be located inside the body, driving the lens via a screw in the mount.
Sorry I didn't explain fully, my main meaning here was that the internal zooms aren't susceptible to dust (that being the "weakness") since there are no cracks for the dust to get into the way there are with the external zooms.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2009, 03:22:58 AM »
OMG.   I can't believe I didn't mention this -

here - camera reviews - forget all the review sites out there.  Go to this site:

http://www.dpreview.com/

I've picked ALL of my cameras for the last 8-9 years from THAT website.   They have not failed to provide me *EXACTLY* what I was looking for.

Each camera review usually has:  photos taken WITH the camera reviewed, a full professional quality review of the camera - usually written BY a professional - simple reviews for all of us and detailed reviews for anyone who really wants to get down into the guts of how the thing works.


If you pick a camera using that site - you're literally *guaranteed* to get something you're going to be nothing but satisfied with. 



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Offline cubensis55

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2009, 03:37:51 AM »
You can never go wrong with Canon.
That's my only word of advice.   :)

Offline Stsin

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2009, 05:30:23 AM »
Looks at my old Canon AE1.  Then my old Nikon Coolpix.  Wish I had a DSLR.

DSLRs are the way to go, if serious about it.  Just the quality of the interchangeable lenses says so.  Those lenses aren't huge just to look expensive.  Allowing more light in causes less restraints on aperture and shutter speeds, .ie less need to use a tripod and for better low light, non-flash, and fast moving images.

But using the old Nikon, I feel about any good name brand digital camera will satisfy most.  Remembering that you usually will get what you pay for.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2009, 06:23:39 AM »
Looks at my old Canon AE1.  Then my old Nikon Coolpix.  Wish I had a DSLR.

DSLRs are the way to go, if serious about it.  Just the quality of the interchangeable lenses says so.  Those lenses aren't huge just to look expensive.  Allowing more light in causes less restraints on aperture and shutter speeds, .ie less need to use a tripod and for better low light, non-flash, and fast moving images.

But using the old Nikon, I feel about any good name brand digital camera will satisfy most.  Remembering that you usually will get what you pay for.


If you wish you had a DSLR - save up for a D40x - they're both KILLER cameras that you can get pretty cheap.  ( I'm talking like $300, and with the 18-55 DX VR lens - $450 total for the whole kit.   That's barely anything more than the best point & shoots out there.   You'll need to get them on ebay though ... few people have any left - but man ... if you're moving from point & shoot to DSLR - you'll be getting pictures like you've never taken before.  Plus - here's the cool part - if you've got the $ - you can slap a beast lens like the 18-200 DX VR on that camera ... and you can do anything you please with it. )

Heh, DSLR lenses.   Mind, bigger is not better.

If you're getting a Nikon - 18-55 DX VR is a great lens that's cheap - honestly, I was VERY surprised by it.   18-135 DX is just damn awesome, and cheap.  If you can afford it, 18-200 DX VR is everything you'd ever want.   Mind this as well - longer lenses, like the 18-135/18-200 - will be useless with the built in flash.   You'll get a bit of blackout on around 18-25 due to the lens being long & blocking off part of the flash area.  ( then you need an external flash for full use indoors or at night.  Those external flashes ... expensive!  Ahhhh! )

If you don't want to look like a fool - don't go over 135/200 for your lens - and make sure it hits a decent focal at the low end - like 18/50.    The shorter your camera goes - the closer you can be standing to your subject.   The higher that low number, the further back you need to stand. 

( * that's not usually a consideration with point & shoots.   If you check dpreview, they'll give you an idea of what point & shoots do for their focal range. )

:)
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Offline Stsin

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Re: Digital Cameras.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2009, 07:01:38 AM »
That is nice, expecting to pay over $700 for a good DSLR package.  Always been wary of ebay on large purchases, but that may change with it more in my price range.  Do you think it's much better than the comparable Rebel model?