The France is a democracy ?

[briaeros007]

Hello,

I'm asking myself a question.
I live in france, and
four days ago, the anti-riot men have molest 14-16 years old children and theirs teachers (they was just waiting for their train).
two days ago, the cops have killed someone without being really in danger themselves.
One days ago, the cops have killed (again) someone without being in danger themselves (someone who break a toll barrier).

twomorrow, the governement will try to push a law where
- the net will be filtered
- you will be disconnect from the net if the Majors "have found your ip", without any possibility to defend yourself before the line is cut. When the line is cut, you will have to take the judge (so wait for some months before any true decision).
- they would try to find you automatically.
- it will not prevent any other pursuit (like civil pursuit (damages), and prosecution (jails))

The journalists in france are always on the side of the governement.

Plenty of new laws are about extending the possibility of police about terrorism (in France a the custody can be as long as six days (the "most normal" custody is 48h). We have the rights of an avdocate ... for only 30 min....
In some case, we can't see an advocate before 48h of custody, and in terrorism case,  we can't see him before 72h).

The "terrorism" in france is pretty large. For example if you destruct an overhead lines, without any injuries, you are a terrorist.

Well, there are plenty of other "dumb" law, but my questions is :

Did you think that a country with this sort of laws, and this sort of comportement is a democracy ?

[vicious796]

Might sound stupid, but do you pay for your internet through a company or is it free from the government?

[AceHigh]

Might sound stupid, but do you pay for your internet through a company or is it free from the government?

Stop watching FOX, socialism is not communism. And yes that sounded very stupid.

And briaeros, your country is used to be the best example of freedom for the people and democracy in modern history. However you did fuck it all up by joining/making EU which is a corrupt organization that wants nothing less then a total control of the people and lesser nations. So what can I say, you reap what you sow.

[vicious796]

I never said anything about socialism or communism at all. If the internet is provided by the government, the government has every right to restrict it. It's their product. If it's provided by an individual company, the government has no right to restrict that company's policies.

[briaeros007]

Well :
1°) the net is paid from a company, BUT it's something "normal" that the governement edicts law which must be respected even by company.
The trouble here is that the governement want to control the freedom of speech, and doesn't respect any principle (the presumption of innocence , or the possibilty to defend his case for example)
To give you another example about the "control", they wanted to establish a white list for website visible through a public wifi access.

2°) The EU aren't bad or good. They have troubles, and i'm not always ok with they're decision, but on this specific example :
The EU parliament have voted an amendment which will forbid the french law. This amendment was voted by 88% of european deputy!
and this was "rejected" by our (the french) f****** president sarko.
The EU has drawback, and advantages.

3°) Even before EU, france wasn't so great.
Yes in history books, it's our country which have done "the revolution", but where your history books must haven't emphasize, is that after the revolution (1789), there are thirty years of "la terreur" (Reign of terror).
In a more contemporary way
In algeria war, the france has done torture, and hasn't recognize algerian fighter which fight for the France (Harki).
The jails in France are one of the worst in all EU.
Amnesty international have regularly show that France isn't a good example in UDHR.

Or even in the second war, france (under vichy) have HELP THE NAZI, and THEY'VE DEPORTED JEWS! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafle_du_Vélodrome_d'Hiver for example).


It sadden me to recognize it, but the France isn't the big defensor of Human Right that most of stranger think it is :'(.

To finish some humor : your clinton-gate was very funny for us : All our predisent has their "lovers". A good part of our politicians have done Embezzlement, electoral fraud, and so on!
So when some american wanted to destitute a president just for some cum, this was really funny for us

[AceHigh]

I never said anything about socialism or communism at all. If the internet is provided by the government, the government has every right to restrict it. It's their product. If it's provided by an individual company, the government has no right to restrict that company's policies.

Oh please I recognized the subtle generalization of "socialist get everything for free from the government but it's shitty". Guess what, we pay for almost all services.

1°) the net is paid from a company, BUT it's something "normal" that the governement edicts law which must be respected even by company.
The trouble here is that the governement want to control the freedom of speech, and doesn't respect any principle (the presumption of innocence , or the possibilty to defend his case for example)
To give you another example about the "control", they wanted to establish a white list for website visible through a public wifi access.

It's the same everywhere. Tell me about a country where the government does not attempt to take more control on every turn.

[vicious796]

Jeez Ace, I honestly was not implying that this time. I understand why you would think I was, but really that would have come as an after-thought. I genuinely didn't know how internet works overseas (as in distribution). Censorship laws are bullshit and always have been.

[briaeros007]

It's the same everywhere. Tell me about a country where the government does not attempt to take more control on every turn.

Sweden ?

[AceHigh]

Quick resume on how it works. Technologically it is probably the same as USA except for Sweden, which has fiber cables everywhere with dirt cheap internet. Service is distributed by providers which are private companies, who still must obey the law.

The only difference is that most ISP here are not willing to cooperate with anti piracy lobbies, unless forced so by the court. ISP in the north are the most resistant like Danish who had to be ordered to cooperate by the court or Norwegian who take a political stance against monitoring and censorship. Down south in the core of the fourth Reich..... I mean EU, the ISP can't be resistant it seems because they are changing laws so that they don't have to force them to cooperate by individual court rulings every time.

It's the same everywhere. Tell me about a country where the government does not attempt to take more control on every turn.

Sweden ?

Haven't you heard of FRA?

[forevr]

briaeros007 are you really French?

[briaeros007]

Haven't you heard of FRA?

I've heard some time ago. It was like your NSA or our DRM/DGSE. Actually it is "only" anti-terrorism, but yes you've right, sweden wasn't this great for an example.

In france, some "interception" are directly authorized by the top of the governement (and some scandal known as "Les écoutes de l'élysée" (in french : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_des_écoutes_de_l'Élysée ).

But for a comparison between sweden and  france:

On August 8, 2008 Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reported that a recent poll suggests 51% of the Swedes are against the law[7], as compared to 47% in June 2008. It also claims that the trust in Sweden's prime minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt, might be in danger.

Our president have only ~35% of positive opinion for him, and sadly, he isn't ready to go away.

And after the ACTA, it will be more and more difficult to have trust in our (a?) governement

@forevr : yes.

[Chiyachan]

Yay Frenchies! >_>

I can't really think of a useful contribution so I'll just say that all countries have their problems...

Aussieland has ISP problems too IIRC. So, yeah. >_>

ALLEZ LES FRANCAIS!

[AceHigh]

I've heard some time ago. It was like your NSA or our DRM/DGSE. Actually it is "only" anti-terrorism, but yes you've right, sweden wasn't this great for an example.

Not mine, I am from Norway, and what I really meant about FRA is the new law that allows them to monitor all internet traffic that is inside, incoming, outgoing traffic and the one that simply passes through. The latter did upset us because the way international cables are connected makes all norwegian traffic to go through Sweden. It is a controversial law that upset citizens who felt that their freedoms were taken away, private companies who are concerned about their trade secrets as well as on a higher political level.

On August 8, 2008 Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reported that a recent poll suggests 51% of the Swedes are against the law[7], as compared to 47% in June 2008. It also claims that the trust in Sweden's prime minister, Fredrik Reinfeldt, might be in danger.

Our president have only ~35% of positive opinion for him, and sadly, he isn't ready to go away.

Yeah same thing when our government voted for EU and people voted against it in 1994, in 1972 the prime minister actually had to retire.

[forevr]

It's all because of those right wing fascists that should never govern Sweden. Everytime they do everything turns to shit.

[briaeros007]

Yeah same thing when our government voted for EU and people voted against it in 1994, in 1972 the prime minister actually had to retire.

You are lucky. Our president have forced the TCE (Treaty_establishing _a_Constitution_for _Europe)    
by parliamentary mean when people have voted against it in a referendum. And he is always president this ******* *******.

[lx4]

Yes France is democratic, its too democratic for its own good. Too much of this Rousseau bs, too much focus on democracy and the general will, too little on individual freedom. Thats why the government (representing the majority of the french people) can piss on the individual if its seen to be for the good of the people as a whole. 

[briaeros007]

Too much of this Rousseau bs
Rousseau in the french Government ? Do you know Rousseau thesis at least? It was that the society perverts man.
In this way, The thesis of rousseau is an absolute individual freedom, and against institution and governement.

Are you sure you know what you are speaking ?

And the actual governement doesn't represent the "majority of the people".
It represent exactly 31,18 % of the electors.

To finish, but i am not sure you would understand :  the democracy isn't the dictatorship of the majority. In the same idea, democracy isn't the oppression of minority.

But one thing you said was true, is that "if it's for the good of the people as a whole". So the question is : something which benefits only for majors, and not for
- the economy in a whole (unilateral cost for ISP, will not improve consumption,...)
- the population
- the freedom
- the law and the "right"
will it be benefit for the "people as a whole"?

For this reason we _want_ a true debate in the french assembly and media. And the Minister of Culture is incapable to answer any questions, and the only reaction she has, is to depreciate her interlocutor.

[AceHigh]

To finish, but i am not sure you would understand :  the democracy isn't the dictatorship of the majority. In the same idea, democracy isn't the oppression of minority.

Actually I disagree. Throughout the history it is shown that this is exactly what democracy is.

[briaeros007]

I was speaking about the "ideal" of the democracy.

Of course, the "real" democracy couldn't take into account absolutely all opinions, but consensus could (and should) be achieved between the main opinions.

I have yet to see a "democracy" where no consensus are done by the "majority".

And a "democracy" which have this very comportement is a dictatorshop IMHO. (a little like the ex-RDA).

[forevr]

Switzerland is probably the closest you'll get to a true democracy. Close to impossible to have a functioning direct democracy in a larger country than that.