Socialized Medicine in the United States

[relic2279]

will be boosted up while my great insurance that I already pay almost nothing for will be downgraded.

I think that's the misconception. You think you actually have good insurance. Verizon Wireless prided itself and promoted/advertised the fact that they had amazing insurance packages. When I worked for verizon wireless, I was treated no differently than my brother who was a laborer at a local factory at Cleveland Clinic, arguable the best heart hospital in the world, for my arrhythmia. Unless you are a millionaire, or more, you will not experience "Dr. House" type people. You will not get the best. Everything was routine. I know, because I've been in the system with good insurance. I blew out my back in 02 and had heart problems in 05.

Great insurance, the one where you never have to actually worry, is private insurance. Costing upwards of 15k or more a year. That will allow you to see the specialists in your field of troubles. God bless the freemarket!

[mgz]

Throw in we have NO KNOWN WAY to pay for this (we're talking about taxing soda for it... seriously)

Mothball half the military. Problem solved.
Stop extending patent on medicine (read: force Pfizer to stop screwing the world), cheaper medicine. Problem solved.
Government competes with insurance companies (Malaysia), private companies offer better coverage for less price. You win here.
Start taxing soda....


Wait. Start taxing junk food the same way as alcohol and tobacco. If the junk food is more expensive then healthy food (remove tax on fruits, veggies etc...), then there will be fewer people with chronic diseases. Do you know the best part in it? People can't say that "you have no right to blackmail me into healthy food" because the government can say, "you wanted free healthcare, so now your health is our problem, suck on that!"

technically they dont extend patents like they used to on things, however the drug companies have found loopholes in the system which is that a company like pfizer releases drug X, a couple years later when the patent is going to expire they release drug Xa its the same drug as drug X but its fast acting and works quicker, a few years later they do the same thing but do druig Xb its a slow dissolving day long drug same function but lasts longer.

this process gets repeated and with each single rerelease of the drug it extends their patents

[vicious796]

will be boosted up while my great insurance that I already pay almost nothing for will be downgraded.

I think that's the misconception. You think you actually have good insurance. Verizon Wireless prided itself and promoted/advertised the fact that they had amazing insurance packages. When I worked for verizon wireless, I was treated no differently than my brother who was a laborer at a local factory at Cleveland Clinic, arguable the best heart hospital in the world, for my arrhythmia. Unless you are a millionaire, or more, you will not experience "Dr. House" type people. You will not get the best. Everything was routine. I know, because I've been in the system with good insurance. I blew out my back in 02 and had heart problems in 05.

Great insurance, the one where you never have to actually worry, is private insurance. Costing upwards of 15k or more a year. That will allow you to see the specialists in your field of troubles. God bless the freemarket!

As much as I'd like to, I can't argue this. I have not ever needed to see an extreme specialist. All I know is that I paid nothing for my oral surgery and very little for my drugs following. When I say I pay very little for my insurance it's because my company pays for about 95% of all of my insurances yet I still make the same amount (actually a bit more than a couple but not if you take in mind cost of living) of the few people in the country with the same job as me.

[AceHigh]

So your company pays almost everything for you..... and you label union workers as leeches..... unbelievable!

[AntiPaladin]

Sorry, Vicious, but that dog don't hunt. You're saying that because YOU have it good, then the system must work and you see no reason to change it. If you'd like to step down off that pedestal and look around at the actual research that's been done, you'd find that proper preventative care is the #1 way to save money on the cost of health care. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" isn't some dumb saying, it's a fact. Most chronic illness in the US (aka the stuff that costs the most money to treat) is fully preventable, and not just in terms of diet and exercise (though they're another problem in the US that I won't get into) Joe Shmo isn't going to care about putting on a few pounds if it's just vanity; Joe will care a lot more if, at his semi-annual physical, the doctor tells him he's close to developing diabetes.

"Presenteeism," sick people coming to work without seeing a doctor they can't afford, has been shown to cost business as much, if not more, than people being absent in terms of man-hours lost and quality of work completed because now you have one person spreading their sickness to everyone else. Anyone who's ever worked in a confined business has seen or experienced it.

I don't want "free" health care - I want access to the exact same health care that every member of Congress is freely given, for the rest of their entire life, even if they only serve a single term.

[vicious796]

Ace - I didn't demand my healthcare, it was offered to me. Unions are far too picky and carry too large a stick in this country that most companies can't combat.

Anti - I'm just using the same arguement most people use FOR national healthcare reform. Arguement sounds silly when it's on the other foot, neh?

Do you know how I got the healthcare I got? Working. My health insurance has gotten better and better with every job that I've taken as I've advanced through the workplace. I'm not saying that since I have it good the system works and there's no reason to change it. What I'm saying is there are definately things that need to be changed but that doesn't mean we have to do something as dramatic as scrapping the whole system and coming up with something from scratch that we can not possibly support by normal means. Did you read the bill? There are some very vague wordings in there, like how to determine a doctor's payrate.

Most articles I've read say there are approximately 46 million in the country without health insurance at all, which is probably slightly higher than the truth. I also believe that the number represents illegal immigrants in the nation and they were taking numbers from hospital treatments without insurance. Most people seem to agree that our unemployment rate is 8.9% nationwide now, which is roughly 27 million people. So that's 19 million working people in the country that don't have any health insurance if both numbers are to be believed. So we're upset that 19 million people in the US, out of 300 some million, have shitty jobs? That a small percentage got the short end of the stick? You have the right to pursue happiness, not have it.

Look, I've said it a thousand times over and it doesn't seem to stick with anyone. You want socialized healthcare? Fine, do it on a state level. There is NO NEED for a totally federalized healthcare network. It will work just as shitty and slow as every other federal government process and cost WAY too much. Let each state decide if they want it or not and what to do after that. Don't cram shit down everyone's throat for no good reason.

[AceHigh]

You have the right to pursue happiness, not have it.

Until the majority decides that they want it as a right. Majority won this year, your side lost, so be happy with it or reject democracy like I do.

[AntiPaladin]

Not everyone gets lucky with their job opportunities Vicious (and don't try to BS, getting a great job is a lot more than simple hard work now) Most workplaces only offer healthcare to those of management level and above, and there's a hell of a lot of more low level peons that will never be given the chance to advance simply due to a lack of open positions.

I don't know who you're talking to, but nothing I've read about the current ideas being floated by the President include scrapping our current system and starting over; the idea is to create a government backed health insurance provider for people who aren't eligible to receive healthcare at their job. We'd pay premiums just like anybody else, and this would give the Health Insurance firms a chance to put into action the idea that the private sector can always do things cheaper and more efficiently than the government. THAT'S the rub - they know they could never compete with a firm that covers 46 million people.

Also, your numbers are off. 300 million is the total population of the country. Only 60% of that (according to the latest numbers) is working age, 19-64. So that's 180 million. Unemployment only covers those same people, so 8.9% means 16.2 million out of work. Subtract that from the 46 million (which would also only be applicable to the working age) and you're left with almost 30 million workers without insurance, 1/6th the total work force. Looks a little different when you take those factors into account, doesn't it?

[SeventyX7]

Unemployment is already calculated as a % of the work force.   

8.9% means 8.9% of the work force.   

[mgz]

Unemployment is already calculated as a % of the work force.   

8.9% means 8.9% of the work force.   

true story 8.9% of total population would be insane

[vicious796]

I'm embarassed to admit that I totally missed that, a total blonde moment on my part and I deeply apologize for my miswritten numbers.

Back on to subject now, I'm not bullshitting you one bit, hard work and determination pay off. I live in Northern Virginia and we have a very competitive job market. I didn't finish college and I make no excuses for it. I started off at the bottom of the barrell retail jobs but kept looking. Every single day doing job searches and setting up interviews. Applying to places that I never would have fit the job requirements for but every now and then you get a phone call and set up an interview for a job. You go and make your points clear, I don't have what you're looking for but I can do it and I can do it for slightly less money than these other donks.

Then you negotiate. You update your resume and keep moving. You climb the ladder without ever stopping. You do the shit that no one else wants to do that isn't part of your job description and you do it with a smile and you do it well until you get noticed. Then you negotiate again (I'll be negotiating tomorrow with the President of my company for a considerable raise). You make sure you have a fair arguement and you portray it in a business like attitude. Talk to any middle-manager type person in a company that's making a good salary and has some room left for advancement and ask them how they got there. Sure, some will have had it fall in their laps, but 95% of them worked their asses off for years to get there.

Sure, some lucky breaks come and go, but you have to put yourself into the position to get that lucky break. I don't want to hear the bs that hard work doesn't pay off, it does. Anyone who says otherwise just quit and really has no room to talk about it. I fully believe in the original core values and rights of our constitution and beyond. That all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I am alive, I am free, and I have (so far) never stopped working to maintain my happiness and the joy of those close to me. Health insurance is just a part of it, the big picture is much more important.

[mgz]

I'm embarassed to admit that I totally missed that, a total blonde moment on my part and I deeply apologize for my miswritten numbers.

Back on to subject now, I'm not bullshitting you one bit, hard work and determination pay off. I live in Northern Virginia and we have a very competitive job market. I didn't finish college and I make no excuses for it. I started off at the bottom of the barrell retail jobs but kept looking. Every single day doing job searches and setting up interviews. Applying to places that I never would have fit the job requirements for but every now and then you get a phone call and set up an interview for a job. You go and make your points clear, I don't have what you're looking for but I can do it and I can do it for slightly less money than these other donks.

Then you negotiate. You update your resume and keep moving. You climb the ladder without ever stopping. You do the shit that no one else wants to do that isn't part of your job description and you do it with a smile and you do it well until you get noticed. Then you negotiate again (I'll be negotiating tomorrow with the President of my company for a considerable raise). You make sure you have a fair arguement and you portray it in a business like attitude. Talk to any middle-manager type person in a company that's making a good salary and has some room left for advancement and ask them how they got there. Sure, some will have had it fall in their laps, but 95% of them worked their asses off for years to get there.

Sure, some lucky breaks come and go, but you have to put yourself into the position to get that lucky break. I don't want to hear the bs that hard work doesn't pay off, it does. Anyone who says otherwise just quit and really has no room to talk about it. I fully believe in the original core values and rights of our constitution and beyond. That all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I am alive, I am free, and I have (so far) never stopped working to maintain my happiness and the joy of those close to me. Health insurance is just a part of it, the big picture is much more important.

More or less, there is a difference between the guy who works his ass off to go from making 23k a year to 65k over the course of 6 or 10 years, and the guy who started at 50k cuz he got lucky

[vicious796]

I don't know anyone who didn't get a degree at least that starts out making 50 out of high school (in the US). Even the guy that starts out at 50 will generally lose his job if he sucks at it and then it looks bad on a resume or for reccomendations. Getting a lucky break doesn't mean you keep it, you still have to work to maintain.

[AntiPaladin]

In no way, shape, or form did I try to imply that hard work is meaningless. Quite the opposite, it's essential to success (unless your last name is Hilton). I was pointing out that just working hard and trying your best doesn't usually cut it. There's always going to be outside factors that, while you can try to predict them (the job market affecting what you study in school, etc.) you can never account for all of them. Luck will always play a major role in success: you getting called back for an interview for a position you didn't qualify for being an example. Like you said, "every now and then you get a phone call and set up an interview for a job." Plenty of people could do the exact same thing and never meet with that one manager they'll click with enough for them to take a chance on you.

The other major problem as I see it is the cultural shift in America. Employers used to pride themselves on taking care of and providing for their employees. They wanted to create "Company Men" who would be loyal for the rest of their lives because of how well they're treated. Most companies today care only about squeezing out every last dollar they can and couldn't care less about the cogs in their gears. That's the entire reasoning behind outsourcing - why pay an American worker a fair wage when we can pay pennies on the dollar overseas to someone living in a hut? Consider yourself extremely lucky to have a job with a company that takes care of you.

And because it seems an appropriate quote given the subject, "What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniencey to the whole. No society can surely be flourishing and happy of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable." That would be Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, the man seen as the father of modern capitalism. A thorough reading will show you that he, Mr. Capitalism, was in favor of improved conditions for the workforce, since they could lead to increased productivity.

[vicious796]

I apologize for the misunderstanding and, believe me, I do see your point. I count my multiple blessings every day and am thankful for them but that still doesn't change the fact that they were earned and worked for. I'm not trying to state that every person that works hard is going to succeed and every person that's a slacker is going to fail, there are exceptions to every rule. I do hold fast to the concept that those who work hard get theirs in the end as I see it every day in the workplace. It's a matter of patience and persistence.

I also strongly agree on the downfall and corruption of the US workplace. Believe me, if the current President of my company could change our benefits he would. Everything was set in stone here back in the 60s and 70s and he can't change our benefits. He can, however, pay us too little for what we do (my boat) and claim the benefits make up for it. Even in the best of places there are holes and downsides. The benefit of the down-trodden US workplace is that, hopefully, my generation can/will turn it around once we reach those heights after seeing/living through it from the bottom. Sadly, I fear it won't happen that way.

[AceHigh]

Vicious, I found something interesting here. Apparently I pay only 7% more in taxes then equivalent people in USA and get free healthcare (among other things like free education etc...)
http://www.oecd.org/vgn/images/portal/cit_731/28/15/42715682Table-0.1.jpg

Never expected that Belgium raped their people that much.

[mgz]

problem with that number is im assuming its based on average, which is misleading depending on how its averaged.

Most people pay 22-27% taxes if memory serves, if you make less then like 15k or something shitty like that you pay nothing.

[AceHigh]

It is based on a single person with no kids, with average pay. Because that way you get least deductions and easiest to compare tax levels internationally.

[fohfoh]

Hmm... and don't forget that Canada has different tax levels for each province. I looked at the Canadian numbers, they're maxed out for all categories. I pay less than that in the province I live in.

[AceHigh]

Yes yes it is maximized tax without deductions which most people have. I don't pay more then about 30% for several reasons.

So don't get caught up in the numbers itself. Use them as a reference for comparison. That is what I am sure this list was made for anyway.