Author Topic: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.  (Read 11846 times)

Offline Lucerin Red

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2009, 01:59:27 PM »
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It's not that we don't want people to have jobs in America, it's that we don't want them coming in and taking jobs where someone from America could be working. That's why I said we need more collaboration with the foreign countries so that while one job in America may be filled by someone foreign, there is a job opening from that person's country for the American.

Yes but as I said, Americans will not want to go to work in Mexico or any other country that is shittier, they will try to find a job in a better place which is Western Europe and Japan. Now we all know that Japanese do not want their country flooded with gaijin and I am telling you that we don't want foreigners either. Be it middle easterns or Americans.
Last I checked, the Japs loved americans.
Awfully big words from the losers :P

Except we win in all social advances. Get off your high horse and get back to 15th place, loser  ::)
It's been a long time since I heard so bold words from the provinces.
Pfff, that list is OBVIOUSLY an accurate to check who's the best, since last I checked, Iceland's government collapsed due to bankruptcy and rioting. Why can't we all be more like Iceland.

Offline relic2279

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2009, 02:23:51 PM »
I think some of you are missing the point. Nobody is "penalizing" the rich. It's allocation of taxes. An adjustment to the scale to lower taxes for the middle class, and poor, and raise them equally, so the same amount is generated before adjustment. $10 needs to be made. I pay $5 and joe millionaire pays $5. with the new adjustment, I pay $4 and Joe Millionaire pays $6.

And I say why not? They "earned" it? Joe Millionaire's entire wealth was made in the system called "America", and on the consumption, exploitation and/or backs of the poor and middle class. Why not give a little extra back? Why be greedy? That's consolidation of wealth.

I completely disagree that trickle down economics are even feasible, let alone works. There is so much proof out there that it doesn't work, and no proof that it does work. Trickle down economics, or "reagonomics" is giving big tax breaks to businesses and the wealthy as well as capital gains and "hope" that wealth trickles down to everyone else. Sounds good in theory, but people are greedy. That's why it failed.

If you don't make 200k+ a year, I see no reason to even care, let alone fight for people who could care less about you. You will not make 200k a year. Hard work does not mean you will.
I made some great friends in college. And 2 of my old roommates went off to Toledo U for a pharm degree. Spent a tad over 6 years in college. Worked their asses off. Smartest people I know. Right now, one is in Arizona and the other is in Columbus Ohio. Both working as Pharmacists. Making 90k a year. With a masters degree.
Hard work is a requirement for making money. It does not equal money. A college degree does not equal money.

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Last I checked, the Japs loved americans.
They do love Americans, they just don't want us taking their jobs. :P
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/03/31/financial/f212619D01.DTL

Offline AceHigh

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2009, 02:59:34 PM »
Pfff, that list is OBVIOUSLY an accurate to check who's the best, since last I checked, Iceland's government collapsed due to bankruptcy and rioting. Why can't we all be more like Iceland.

They got as deserved for trying taking the first place from us (look at the numbers, they are not technically first as they share 1st place with us). However I will overlook the fact that you epically failed to notice that statistics happened before the crisis. I bet that at the end of 2009 we will of course be 1st and USA will be way below their 15th place.

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They do love Americans, they just don't want us taking their jobs.  :P
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/03/31/financial/f212619D01.DTL
Exactly everyone loves americans as long as they are across an ocean. Americans are like snakes, they may be cool and amusing, but you wouldn't want them at your house  ;D
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Aneroph

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2009, 03:09:17 PM »
Pfff, that list is OBVIOUSLY an accurate to check who's the best, since last I checked, Iceland's government collapsed due to bankruptcy and rioting. Why can't we all be more like Iceland.

They got as deserved for trying taking the first place from us (look at the numbers, they are not technically first as they share 1st place with us). However I will overlook the fact that you epically failed to notice that statistics happened before the crisis. I bet that at the end of 2009 we will of course be 1st and USA will be way below their 15th place.

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They do love Americans, they just don't want us taking their jobs.  :P
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/03/31/financial/f212619D01.DTL
Exactly everyone loves americans as long as they are across an ocean. Americans are like snakes, they may be cool and amusing, but you wouldn't want them at your house  ;D

You are the reason why foreign relations are impossible. Seriously, just stop talking.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2009, 03:26:15 PM »
You are the reason why foreign relations are impossible. Seriously, just stop talking.

Since when have foreign relations become impossible?  ???

For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Aneroph

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2009, 03:35:53 PM »
You are the reason why foreign relations are impossible. Seriously, just stop talking.

Since when have foreign relations become impossible?  ???



*Increased foreign relations.

Offline BuriaL

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2009, 03:38:34 PM »
Exactly everyone loves americans as long as they are across an ocean. Americans are like snakes, they may be cool and amusing, but you wouldn't want them at your house  ;D

(Laughs)
Ace i think you won the reward for most ugly, but funny comment of the day.

After 2 wars and then a economic crisis, i think the rest of the world is less than enthusiastic about the us.
I dont know if this would affect emplyment chances, but whoever went abroad would likely face some prejudice, if not outright anger.

Offline AceHigh

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2009, 04:07:43 PM »
Since when have foreign relations become impossible?  ???
*Increased foreign relations.
[/quote]

No, the reason for that would be this guy

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After 2 wars and then a economic crisis, i think the rest of the world is less than enthusiastic about the us.
Yes, what he said.

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I dont know if this would affect emplyment chances, but whoever went abroad would likely face some prejudice, if not outright anger
Prejudice, yes, but not anger. At least not unless you are in a country that you bombed to hell. If there is something I have learned in life is that anger and hate are too strong emotions for things like these. I would bet my money on "apathy" and "dislike" though.

And then again there is a difference between individual people and nations. Having apathy for another nation doesn't need to automatically transfer to individuals from that nation. I mean there is much bickering between my country and Sweden, but we still go there to pick up girls.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2009, 04:10:22 PM »
Sorry, I missed all this fun discussion, dang it. (I hate it when real life gets in the way, don't you?)

Exactly everyone loves americans as long as they are across an ocean. Americans are like snakes, they may be cool and amusing, but you wouldn't want them at your house  ;D

I'm coming to stay at your house next week. Seriously.

After 2 wars and then a economic crisis, i think the rest of the world is less than enthusiastic about the us.
I dont know if this would affect emplyment chances, but whoever went abroad would likely face some prejudice, if not outright anger.

I have some news for you. Everyone hates the USA, all the time. The British cuss me out on Xbox Live, Palestine would love to smear us, China only keeps us around because we owe them money...it's not just our recent actions.

If you don't make 200k+ a year, I see no reason to even care, let alone fight for people who could care less about you. You will not make 200k a year. Hard work does not mean you will.
I made some great friends in college. And 2 of my old roommates went off to Toledo U for a pharm degree. Spent a tad over 6 years in college. Worked their asses off. Smartest people I know. Right now, one is in Arizona and the other is in Columbus Ohio. Both working as Pharmacists. Making 90k a year. With a masters degree.
Hard work is a requirement for making money. It does not equal money. A college degree does not equal money.

No (reasonable) person is denying that hard work is required to make money. I expect to work hard and make money. But sometimes you don't. That's called REAL LIFE. Do I whine and complain? No. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. The problem is with poor people who DON'T want to work in the first place. They don't understand that hard work is required to make money.  And even then you fail. I fight for the rich, even if they don't give a damn because as soon as they lose the right to be rich, something they worked hard for, why bother even trying to become rich? Why should everyone cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. those who are lazy?

Oh, and I don't see Americans flooding into the EU. And what's more, they never will. Despite how much everyone complains about how bad this place is, I don't see anyone heading for the gates.
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Quote from: esreveR
Seriously queen, can't you read?
What makes you think I actually read your posts?

Offline Aneroph

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2009, 04:18:56 PM »
Since when have foreign relations become impossible?  ???
*Increased foreign relations.
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No, the reason for that would be this guy

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After 2 wars and then a economic crisis, i think the rest of the world is less than enthusiastic about the us.
Yes, what he said.

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I dont know if this would affect emplyment chances, but whoever went abroad would likely face some prejudice, if not outright anger
Prejudice, yes, but not anger. At least not unless you are in a country that you bombed to hell. If there is something I have learned in life is that anger and hate are too strong emotions for things like these. I would bet my money on "apathy" and "dislike" though.

And then again there is a difference between individual people and nations. Having apathy for another nation doesn't need to automatically transfer to individuals from that nation. I mean there is much bickering between my country and Sweden, but we still go there to pick up girls.

I think your forgetting the fact that just because our president was a moron doesn't mean all American's were jumping for joy when he drove our country into the dirt. In fact, the American people probably hated him more than anyone else. You seem to be confused in thinking that the country leader describes all the people of that particular country.

Back on topic. I have to agree that charging tax percentages makes it fair for everyone.

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2009, 04:25:48 PM »
There really should be a tax code that an idiot can understand. None of this "deduct here", form 1080 this, form 1080 that, just a nice simple "this is what you pay".
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Quote from: esreveR
Seriously queen, can't you read?
What makes you think I actually read your posts?

Offline Lucerin Red

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2009, 04:27:14 PM »
I think some of you are missing the point. Nobody is "penalizing" the rich. It's allocation of taxes. An adjustment to the scale to lower taxes for the middle class, and poor, and raise them equally, so the same amount is generated before adjustment. $10 needs to be made. I pay $5 and joe millionaire pays $5. with the new adjustment, I pay $4 and Joe Millionaire pays $6.
or more like Joe pays 9.

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And I say why not? They "earned" it? Joe Millionaire's entire wealth was made in the system called "America", and on the consumption, exploitation and/or backs of the poor and middle class. Why not give a little extra back? Why be greedy? That's consolidation of wealth.
Not everyone that is rich exploited the working class, in fact, majority of them don't. Majority of the rich are there because they invented something new(product, service, or method) or were just damn good at their field. My example of Bill Gates. The richest man in the world did NOT exploit the poor or middle class. In fact, he gave many of them jobs and freely gives his money to help them.

Not to say there aren't those who exploit people to get their wealth. Because there are. But you act like all rich are villians, and the vast majority of them aren't.

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I completely disagree that trickle down economics are even feasible, let alone works. There is so much proof out there that it doesn't work, and no proof that it does work. Trickle down economics, or "reagonomics" is giving big tax breaks to businesses and the wealthy as well as capital gains and "hope" that wealth trickles down to everyone else. Sounds good in theory, but people are greedy. That's why it failed.
Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats in order to "help" the poor buy houses they couldn't afford. Historically, there has been a boom and bust period every 15 years in our country, and after the great depression, we got smart and put all these rules and regulations in place, but some people saw this as limiting the poor, and removed them, and then bam we get this whole fiasco.

If socialist economics work, our standard of living would have gone up instead of becoming LESS THAN HALF of what it was in the 1940s. If welfare worked, then people would be getting out of the ghetto instead of it increasing in size. Trickle down economics work, they just take YEARS to take effect, socialist economics LOOK like they work, but all they end up doing is raising the rate of inflation. For example, my state just drastically raised the minimum wage from $4.75 to $7.75. INSTANTLY, I saw increases in price at most restaurants in the area. Doing things like this temporarily helps the poor, but all it does in reality is bump the costs of things up. A steady wage increase IS a good thing, but raising it so high also raises costs to owners, who then have to raise their prices to compensate, which costs the consumer more, thus giving the dollar less purchasing power and thus puts the poor back exactly where they were.

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If you don't make 200k+ a year, I see no reason to even care, let alone fight for people who could care less about you.
I'd feel the same way if I never thought I would make that much. Because it's wrong. This whole idea of it doesn't concern me so why should I care is the exact problem this country has.

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You will not make 200k a year. Hard work does not mean you will.
I made some great friends in college. And 2 of my old roommates went off to Toledo U for a pharm degree. Spent a tad over 6 years in college. Worked their asses off. Smartest people I know. Right now, one is in Arizona and the other is in Columbus Ohio. Both working as Pharmacists. Making 90k a year. With a masters degree.
I have an extremely high confidence that I will make much more than 200k a year. The average pay in my field is well over 100k, and I also have minors in fields which should put me above the average employee, as well as the fact that I'm REALLY good at what I do. I have recommendations out the ass and a portfolio that already puts most experienced employees to shame.

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Hard work is a requirement for making money. It does not equal money. A college degree does not equal money.
No, but that and being smart definitely does. Your friends making 90k at their job could easily make more than 200k by properly saving and investing their money. People who just sit at their desks and do their jobs will never make it that high, but you look at what most rich people did do to get where they are, it's by investing and innovating. A good salary job is just a stepping stone.


Offline AceHigh

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2009, 04:35:17 PM »
I think your forgetting the fact that just because our president was a moron doesn't mean all American's were jumping for joy when he drove our country into the dirt. In fact, the American people probably hated him more than anyone else. You seem to be confused in thinking that the country leader describes all the people of that particular country.

And I think you are forgetting exactly what the words "generalisation" and "prejudice" mean.

Generalisation: Inductive reasoning from detailed facts to general principles. In this context Bush is a "detailed fact" and USA is "general principles"

Also you logic is flawed because in a democracy the leader is a representative one. That means that Bush represented you because you voted for him. Also I said a long time ago, morons vote for morons.

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Sorry, I missed all this fun discussion, dang it. (I hate it when real life gets in the way, don't you?)
It is still ongoing

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I'm coming to stay at your house next week. Seriously.
Are you not afraid of visiting a socialistic evil country?  ;)

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Oh, and I don't see Americans flooding into the EU. And what's more, they never will. Despite how much everyone complains about how bad this place is, I don't see anyone heading for the gates.
I don't see that happen either. People who are so poor that they wish they left are too poor to buy a plane ticket. They just have to continue living in trailer parks..... got to love Atlantic ocean. Besides it is really hard to get here. Either you succeed at getting a job before coming here or you marry someone from here. I don't really see another way.
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline relic2279

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2009, 04:49:41 PM »
EDIT: I quoted everyone. :P Didn't feel like putting names in.

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fter 2 wars and then a economic crisis, i think the rest of the world is less than enthusiastic about the us.
I dont know if this would affect emplyment chances, but whoever went abroad would likely face some prejudice, if not outright anger.

Don't be to hard on us Americans though. 50% of us voted against the GOP and Bush twice. Myself included. I was 21 when Clinton's term ended, It was my first time voting. I voted for Gore. Told my friends and family, great. There goes our economy and we'll be in a war soon.
In 2003-4, I was riding the "I told you so" train. Then like some perfect storm or armageddon, The GOP had control of congress and Bush somehow got reelected. 50% of Americans thought like me. Don't be to harsh on us. :P

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The problem is with poor people who DON'T want to work in the first place.
That assumption offends me more than any other. My parents busted their ass, my dad had a heating and cooling business and they are borderline poor/middle class. That assumption is like me saying all rich people received their money/jobs from their parents/connections. It's the most idiotic statement I've ever heard and is completely baseless and a full sweeping generalization.

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Why should everyone cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. those who are lazy?
The rest of your argument relies on the assumption that poor people are lazy.
Yes, lets assume all people who make under 200k, hell under 80k, are lazy. Are you a troll?

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My example of Bill Gates. The richest man in the world did NOT exploit the poor or middle class. In fact, he gave many of them jobs and freely gives his money to help them.
I said "exploit" as one answer. Obviously, it does not apply. My other answer "consumption" does. Thanks for playing.

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Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats
Mmm Paradox. Economy going downhill until 2 years after Clinton was elected. Then boom. Though, the bill proposed to "deregulate" the banks was built by republicans, headed by McCain's economic adviser during the 2008 election and passed by a dem president as a compromise to get other stuff done. Yep. All the dems fault. The dems are "all for" deregulation... /sarcasm

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but all they end up doing is raising the rate of inflation. For example, my state just drastically raised the minimum wage from $4.75 to $7.75. INSTANTLY, I saw increases in price at most restaurants in the area
Except that inflation isn't happening. Deflation is.
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The consumer price index fell at an annual rate of 0.4% in March, the first decline since August 1955
http://rlai2009.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-economy-goes-back-to-1955-as.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/235867/Forget-About-Inflation...-It%27s-Deflation-You-Should-Worry-About?tickers=xlf,dia,spy?sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=

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Your friends making 90k at their job could easily make more than 200k by properly saving and investing their money. People who just sit at their desks and do their jobs will never make it that high, but you look at what most rich people did do to get where they are, it's by investing and innovating. A good salary job is just a stepping stone.

Saving and income aren't the same.

Offline Insanity

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2009, 05:05:57 PM »
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And I say why not? They "earned" it? Joe Millionaire's entire wealth was made in the system called "America", and on the consumption, exploitation and/or backs of the poor and middle class. Why not give a little extra back? Why be greedy? That's consolidation of wealth.
Not everyone that is rich exploited the working class, in fact, majority of them don't. Majority of the rich are there because they invented something new(product, service, or method) or were just damn good at their field. My example of Bill Gates. The richest man in the world did NOT exploit the poor or middle class. In fact, he gave many of them jobs and freely gives his money to help them.
Because Bill gates and microsoft didn't crush other companies to attain/maintain their monopoly?
And Microsoft never had to pay ~$500,000,000 for abusing their monopoly?

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Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats in order to "help" the poor buy houses they couldn't afford. Historically, there has been a boom and bust period every 15 years in our country, and after the great depression, we got smart and put all these rules and regulations in place, but some people saw this as limiting the poor, and removed them, and then bam we get this whole fiasco.
I've seen this discussion before, and blaming republicans/democrats for all the problems is as stupid now as it was then.
It's not 100% one side's fault, it never has been and it never will be.


As for the whole tax thing:
Lets say Joe average makes X amount of money a month.
Joe millionaire makes Y amount of money a month.
Joe Average spends 10% of his money on taxes, and he needs 75% of his money to be able to live comfortably.
Joe Millionaire spends 50% of his money on Taxes, and he needs ~5% of his money to live a comfortable life.
He might spend 40%, but you don't need a mansion with swimming pool and god knows what else, and the 10% he's got left is still a hell of a lot more than the 15% Joe Average has left.

I say that that's reasonably fair, not perfect but nothing will ever be perfect simply because what's perfect for Mr Average isn't for Mr Millionaire.
If you make taxes an equal % for everyone, it would have to be 30%, and now suddenly Joe Average can't afford to live comfortably anymore while Joe Millionaire gets a lot richer.

A.k.a. making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Offline mgz

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2009, 05:08:10 PM »
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And I say why not? They "earned" it? Joe Millionaire's entire wealth was made in the system called "America", and on the consumption, exploitation and/or backs of the poor and middle class. Why not give a little extra back? Why be greedy? That's consolidation of wealth.
Not everyone that is rich exploited the working class, in fact, majority of them don't. Majority of the rich are there because they invented something new(product, service, or method) or were just damn good at their field. My example of Bill Gates. The richest man in the world did NOT exploit the poor or middle class. In fact, he gave many of them jobs and freely gives his money to help them.
Because Bill gates and microsoft didn't crush other companies to attain/maintain their monopoly?
And Microsoft never had to pay ~$500,000,000 for abusing their monopoly?

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Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats in order to "help" the poor buy houses they couldn't afford. Historically, there has been a boom and bust period every 15 years in our country, and after the great depression, we got smart and put all these rules and regulations in place, but some people saw this as limiting the poor, and removed them, and then bam we get this whole fiasco.
I've seen this discussion before, and blaming republicans/democrats for all the problems is as stupid now as it was then.
It's not 100% one side's fault, it never has been and it never will be.


As for the whole tax thing:
Lets say Joe average makes X amount of money a month.
Joe millionaire makes Y amount of money a month.
Joe Average spends 10% of his money on taxes, and he needs 75% of his money to be able to live comfortably.
Joe Millionaire spends 50% of his money on Taxes, and he needs ~5% of his money to live a comfortable life.
He might spend 40%, but you don't need a mansion with swimming pool and god knows what else, and the 10% he's got left is still a hell of a lot more than the 15% Joe Average has left.

I say that that's reasonably fair, not perfect but nothing will ever be perfect simply because what's perfect for Mr Average isn't for Mr Millionaire.
If you make taxes an equal % for everyone, it would have to be 30%, and now suddenly Joe Average can't afford to live comfortably anymore while Joe Millionaire gets a lot richer.

A.k.a. making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Um, typically its not democrats who want to ease regulation for things like loans, its typically republicans. However once the change was there it was democratic groups(not the democrats per say) but groups of democrats that wanted banks to loan money to people who shouldnt be getting it.

Unfortunately for everyone the shit hit the fan

Offline Insanity

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2009, 05:12:30 PM »
Hence why I said that it's never 100% one side's fault.

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2009, 05:27:05 PM »
That assumption offends me more than any other. My parents busted their ass, my dad had a heating and cooling business and they are borderline poor/middle class. That assumption is like me saying all rich people received their money/jobs from their parents/connections. It's the most idiotic statement I've ever heard and is completely baseless and a full sweeping generalization.

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The rest of your argument relies on the assumption that poor people are lazy.
Yes, lets assume all people who make under 200k, hell under 80k, are lazy. Are you a troll?

You note how I said "poor people who don't work. Not everyone who is poor is there because they want to be. As I said, hard work doesn't always equal money, because that's real life. I'm sorry if that offended you, I didn't mean it that way. I might venture to say though, that those who want to make money often do. Note that your parents got married, but they didn't have to, etc. The choices we make determine where we go, and life doesn't always offer the correct choices for sucess or perhaps we make the wrong choice. I'm not blaming people who work hard and are poor because of circumstances, but those who are "poor" because of choice and they expect a handout.

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Mmm Paradox. Economy going downhill until 2 years after Clinton was elected. Then boom. Though, the bill proposed to "deregulate" the banks was built by republicans, headed by McCain's economic adviser during the 2008 election and passed by a dem president as a compromise to get other stuff done. Yep. All the dems fault. The dems are "all for" deregulation... /sarcasm

The economy is a cycle, big whup. When Bush got into office stuff was bad, too. You should know that politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth. Who supported the Iraq war before they didn't? Oh, the Democrats. Let's not act like anyone in D.C. is cleaner than anyone else, they are all liars and double-talkers.



« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 08:00:20 PM by queenmetroid »
Quote from: queenmetroid
Quote from: esreveR
Seriously queen, can't you read?
What makes you think I actually read your posts?

Offline AceHigh

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2009, 05:32:59 PM »
The economy is a cycle, big whup. When Bush got into office stuff was bad, too. You should know that politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth. Who supported the Iraq war before they didn't? Oh, the Democrats. Let's not act like anyone in D.C. is cleaner than anyone else, they are all liars and double-talkers.

Amen, I always told that all politicians are assholes who lie. Those who don't lie, don't advance into higher positions.

That is also why I don't vote, I refuse to support assholes. Besides my loyalty lies with the king....
For one thing, Tiff is not on any level what I would call a typical American.  She's not what I would consider a typical person.  I don't know any other genius geneticist anime-fan martial artist marksman model-level beauties, do you?

Offline Lucerin Red

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Re: It's easy to vote for socialism when you don't have to pay for it.
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2009, 06:15:53 PM »
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My example of Bill Gates. The richest man in the world did NOT exploit the poor or middle class. In fact, he gave many of them jobs and freely gives his money to help them.
I said "exploit" as one answer. Obviously, it does not apply. My other answer "consumption" does. Thanks for playing.
And what's wrong with that? They don't have to buy something if they don't like it. The consumer mostly decides what products go to the top. No one forced them to give him their money.

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Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats
Mmm Paradox. Economy going downhill until 2 years after Clinton was elected. Then boom. Though, the bill proposed to "deregulate" the banks was built by republicans, headed by McCain's economic adviser during the 2008 election and passed by a dem president as a compromise to get other stuff done. Yep. All the dems fault. The dems are "all for" deregulation... /sarcasm
The reason the economy BOOMED had nothing to do with Clinton, but had everything to do with the internet and technology boom. Which once again is trickle down economics. The people at top made lots of money, created jobs, and fueled the economy.

I'm not saying some republicans didn't help deregulate banks, but it was democrats who forced the banks to start accepting the massive amounts of subprime loans, and then defended it all the way until the end saying housing is a riskless investment. Without the subprime loan fiasco, the current economic situation would be nothing more than the slight recession we see come and go.

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but all they end up doing is raising the rate of inflation. For example, my state just drastically raised the minimum wage from $4.75 to $7.75. INSTANTLY, I saw increases in price at most restaurants in the area
Except that inflation isn't happening. Deflation is.
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The consumer price index fell at an annual rate of 0.4% in March, the first decline since August 1955
http://rlai2009.blogspot.com/2009/04/us-economy-goes-back-to-1955-as.html
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/235867/Forget-About-Inflation...-It%27s-Deflation-You-Should-Worry-About?tickers=xlf,dia,spy?sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=
one month doesn't override a trend. and the raise I'm talking about happened a year or two ago.

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Your friends making 90k at their job could easily make more than 200k by properly saving and investing their money. People who just sit at their desks and do their jobs will never make it that high, but you look at what most rich people did do to get where they are, it's by investing and innovating. A good salary job is just a stepping stone.

Saving and income aren't the same.

I'm not talking about saving, I'm talking about investing. Buying land, buying into business, etc.The people that make all the money are people that own land and own business or are in charge of them. These give you constant returns on your money and overall go up in value, savings just sit there.

Because Bill gates and microsoft didn't crush other companies to attain/maintain their monopoly?
And Microsoft never had to pay ~$500,000,000 for abusing their monopoly?
You can't deny that microsoft made the market bigger. As far as the US case, the whole monopoly case was STUPID and only dealt with Internet Explorer versus alternative browsers. It had nothing to do with microsoft as a whole. Same with europe, except it dealt with exclusive deals that microsoft made with pc manufacturers and windows media player. Despite the fact that there are EXTREME amounts of thriving and wildly available alternatives.

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Except it does work, and that's why our country got to the state its in. Our country's standard of living had gone no where but up until we started issuing socialist programs. In fact, this whole economic crisis is caused because rules and regulations for banks were removed by democrats in order to "help" the poor buy houses they couldn't afford. Historically, there has been a boom and bust period every 15 years in our country, and after the great depression, we got smart and put all these rules and regulations in place, but some people saw this as limiting the poor, and removed them, and then bam we get this whole fiasco.
I've seen this discussion before, and blaming republicans/democrats for all the problems is as stupid now as it was then.
It's not 100% one side's fault, it never has been and it never will be.
it is definitely vast majority one sides fault. One side definitely pushed the ball off the top of the hill, the other side just failed to stop it.

As for the whole tax thing:
Lets say Joe average makes X amount of money a month.
Joe millionaire makes Y amount of money a month.
Joe Average spends 10% of his money on taxes, and he needs 75% of his money to be able to live comfortably.
Joe Millionaire spends 50% of his money on Taxes, and he needs ~5% of his money to live a comfortable life.
He might spend 40%, but you don't need a mansion with swimming pool and god knows what else, and the 10% he's got left is still a hell of a lot more than the 15% Joe Average has left.

I say that that's reasonably fair, not perfect but nothing will ever be perfect simply because what's perfect for Mr Average isn't for Mr Millionaire.
If you make taxes an equal % for everyone, it would have to be 30%, and now suddenly Joe Average can't afford to live comfortably anymore while Joe Millionaire gets a lot richer.

A.k.a. making the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I never said lets tax everyone equally and pay for the current economy that we run. What I said was to cut the taxes AND cut the spending.We wouldn't be needing to take what is Joe Millionaire's IF we weren't blowing so much money in the first place.



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TO ALL OF THOSE WHO WANT SOCIALIST PROGRAMS: IF YOU WANT SOCIALIST PROGRAMS, RUN THEM IN YOUR OWN DAMN STATE! IT IS WRONG TO FORCE SUCH IDEALS UPON THE WHOLE COUNTRY WHEN IT IS CLEARLY A DIVIDED ISSUE AND MANY PEOPLE WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. THAT WAY, IF YOU WANT SOCIALISM, YOU CAN LIVE IN NEW YORK, AND IF YOU DON'T, YOU CAN LIVE IN SOME OTHER STATE.

THIS IS MOST CLEARLY A DIVIDED ISSUE AND IT IS ALSO HEAVILY DIVIDED BY GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION. WOW WHAT AN IDEA! IT'S LIKE THE US GOVERNMENT WAS FOUNDED IN A STATE SYSTEM FOR A REASON OR SOMETHING!!!