Death by Religious Exemption

[AntiPaladin]

I'm not arguing with the fact that medicine offers the kid a much greater chance at survival; there's no denying that. My issue is with forcing him to have a procedure that he and his parents don't want, and I don't believe that just offering "better" chances is enough to over-rule their personal rights. If this was a case of certainty, like the Utah parents who almost starved their toddler to death for religious reasons i.e. without intervention the child would have died, no ifs, ands, or buts, then I would be all for the court's decision. I also believe that the courts have begun to intrude too deeply into our personal lives, especially when it comes to how we raise our children.

MGZ, okay, one phone for emergencies. Still a far cry from having an electronic pacemaker.

[Xanthic]

so.... you're an advocate for stupidity then?

[mgz]

I'm not arguing with the fact that medicine offers the kid a much greater chance at survival; there's no denying that. My issue is with forcing him to have a procedure that he and his parents don't want, and I don't believe that just offering "better" chances is enough to over-rule their personal rights. If this was a case of certainty, like the Utah parents who almost starved their toddler to death for religious reasons i.e. without intervention the child would have died, no ifs, ands, or buts, then I would be all for the court's decision. I also believe that the courts have begun to intrude too deeply into our personal lives, especially when it comes to how we raise our children.

MGZ, okay, one phone for emergencies. Still a far cry from having an electronic pacemaker.

i was simply throwing that out there, i dont think the government shoulda gotten involved.
Because its not their business if they dont want to get medical treatment. Regardless of whether or not the kid is dying if they are actively trying to do something IE visiting spiritual healers(LOL) they arent neglecting the kid, they are seeking alternative solutions.

Granted its terrible solutions but hey they are trying.

[AntiPaladin]

Xanthic, if someone chooses to be an idiot, we have no legal, or moral, reason to oppose them. I'm all for removing safety warnings from every item in America - if you really need to be told that bringing a hairdryer into the bathtub is a bad idea, then you should not be breeding. Give it two generations, and stupidity will have been drastically cut.

MGZ, I agree. Just because something is the socially accepted course of action does not give society the right to impose that course of action on someone. Because the majority of Americans found them to be savages, did that give the Government the right to outlaw the beliefs of the Native Americans? Fuck no.

[Lucerin Red]

My youth pastor once told us a story.

There was a man walking down the street. A light sprinkle had just begun, and while the man was walking,someone running by stopped to tell him, "Hey, there's a flood coming, if you get yourself ready now you'll be able to make it out of town to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

The man continued on his way home, the rain was starting to come down quite heavily now. Suddenly a Jeep stopped in front him. The driver of the Jeep proclaimed, "Hey, there is a massive flood coming, hop on in and I'll take us to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

By the time the man arrived at home, it was raining cats and dogs, the streets quickly became covered in several feet of water. But the man stood strong on his porch, and began to pray. Not a moment later a boat came by. Emergency workers called out, "Please get in the boat, we'll take you to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

From that point on, the flood became a torrent. It quickly overtakes the house, and the man was forced onto the roof. He climbs to the top of the chimney and continues to pray. The water rises all the way up until it's touching the bottoms of his feet. And at the last possible moment, a helicopter drops out of the clouds with a safety harness prepared. The crewman yell down for the man to grab on.

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

Within seconds, the man is overtaken and he drowns. When the man gets to heaven, he asks, "But why didn't you save me God, I had absolute faith in you. I prayed, I didn't waver, I waited for you, but you didn't save me. Why? Did I do something wrong?"

And God simply replies, "What are you talking about? I tried to save you on many occasions. I sent the runner in your path. I told the Jeep to head in your direction. I brought your house to the boat drivers attention. I even used the wind to guide the helicopter in your direction. What are you, blind?"

=====================================================

I without a doubt believe in faith healing. I've seen some amazing stuff in my life, hands on experience, in my family. My church actively preaches it, but the one thing we don't preach is that you shouldn't go to the doctor.

I believe that the government shouldn't be able to tell people how to run their lives, but this is different in the case of minors. Children haven't reached an age of understanding or have enough knowhow to make their own decisions and speak for themselves. In cases like this where parents refuse medical attention for the children when it puts the child in danger, this is endangerment of the child and criminally punishable in my mind.

[mgz]

My youth pastor once told us a story.

There was a man walking down the street. A light sprinkle had just begun, and while the man was walking,someone running by stopped to tell him, "Hey, there's a flood coming, if you get yourself ready now you'll be able to make it out of town to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

The man continued on his way home, the rain was starting to come down quite heavily now. Suddenly a Jeep stopped in front him. The driver of the Jeep proclaimed, "Hey, there is a massive flood coming, hop on in and I'll take us to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

By the time the man arrived at home, it was raining cats and dogs, the streets quickly became covered in several feet of water. But the man stood strong on his porch, and began to pray. Not a moment later a boat came by. Emergency workers called out, "Please get in the boat, we'll take you to safety."

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

From that point on, the flood became a torrent. It quickly overtakes the house, and the man was forced onto the roof. He climbs to the top of the chimney and continues to pray. The water rises all the way up until it's touching the bottoms of his feet. And at the last possible moment, a helicopter drops out of the clouds with a safety harness prepared. The crewman yell down for the man to grab on.

But the man simply replied, "No thanks, I have faith that God will save me."

Within seconds, the man is overtaken and he drowns. When the man gets to heaven, he asks, "But why didn't you save me God, I had absolute faith in you. I prayed, I didn't waver, I waited for you, but you didn't save me. Why? Did I do something wrong?"

And God simply replies, "What are you talking about? I tried to save you on many occasions. I sent the runner in your path. I told the Jeep to head in your direction. I brought your house to the boat drivers attention. I even used the wind to guide the helicopter in your direction. What are you, blind?"

=====================================================

I without a doubt believe in faith healing. I've seen some amazing stuff in my life, hands on experience, in my family. My church actively preaches it, but the one thing we don't preach is that you shouldn't go to the doctor.

I believe that the government shouldn't be able to tell people how to run their lives, but this is different in the case of minors. Children haven't reached an age of understanding or have enough knowhow to make their own decisions and speak for themselves. In cases like this where parents refuse medical attention for the children when it puts the child in danger, this is endangerment of the child and criminally punishable in my mind.

the important part of that story is the man made the choice not to be saved, they didnt force him to be rescued

[Xanthic]

Xanthic, if someone chooses to be an idiot, we have no legal, or moral, reason to oppose them. I'm all for removing safety warnings from every item in America - if you really need to be told that bringing a hairdryer into the bathtub is a bad idea, then you should not be breeding. Give it two generations, and stupidity will have been drastically cut.

I've come to realize that in this day in age stupidity seems to spread faster than it gets killed off. Imo, I'd rather just address the stupidity directly rather than hope it fixes itself.

[geoffreak]

My policy is, any idea of your own goes until someone gets hurt. Not only is the mother forcing the idea on her child, but she is harming him by doing so. This is absolutely criminal neglect.

[mgz]

My policy is, any idea of your own goes until someone gets hurt. Not only is the mother forcing the idea on her child, but she is harming him by doing so. This is absolutely criminal neglect.

But its not your call as to whether or not she is neglecting a child because she isnt getting treatment YOU feel is proper.
If she is getting or attempting anything other then just sitting there and letting the kid die she isnt neglecting the child.
Just not conforming to what you view as proper medical treatment

[Tearlach]

if God didn't want you to have chemotherapy, he wouldn't have given you cancer.

[Aneroph]

But its not your call as to whether or not she is neglecting a child because she isnt getting treatment YOU feel is proper.
If she is getting or attempting anything other then just sitting there and letting the kid die she isnt neglecting the child.
Just not conforming to what you view as proper medical treatment

That's great, except, if you don't believe in God then sitting around doing nothing is exactly what she is doing. If treatment doesn't work, they tried SOMETHING. If praying doesn't work, they tried nothing.

if God didn't want you to have chemotherapy, he wouldn't have given you cancer.

That's awesome.

[mgz]

But its not your call as to whether or not she is neglecting a child because she isnt getting treatment YOU feel is proper.
If she is getting or attempting anything other then just sitting there and letting the kid die she isnt neglecting the child.
Just not conforming to what you view as proper medical treatment

That's great, except, if you don't believe in God then sitting around doing nothing is exactly what she is doing. If treatment doesn't work, they tried SOMETHING. If praying doesn't work, they tried nothing.

if God didn't want you to have chemotherapy, he wouldn't have given you cancer.

That's awesome.

if you and i dont believe in god yes, the treatment only stops working when the person dies.
Religious nutjobs view many parts of modern medicine as blasphemy.

Its not within our rights to tell someone their religious freedoms IE you would be forcing the fact that you think their god made chemo, or that their god cant help the child.
Etc etc.


Think of this from a religious nutjobs point of view

[Aneroph]

if you and i dont believe in god yes, the treatment only stops working when the person dies.
Religious nutjobs view many parts of modern medicine as blasphemy.

Its not within our rights to tell someone their religious freedoms IE you would be forcing the fact that you think their god made chemo, or that their god cant help the child.
Etc etc.


Think of this from a religious nutjobs point of view

This isn't about religious nutjobs, this is about the religious nutjob's children that have no other choice than believe what their parents believe, and no other choice but to not recieve the treatment or else they will be excommunicated from their religion and their family.

[mgz]

those children have been brainwashed into that belief or they would have called 9-1-1 themselves

[nstgc]

I liked Redemption's last post. I do recall hearing things like "God works in mysterious ways" and "God works through all of us".

While I very much wish parents that deny their children medical care based on on something like religion should be drug off to the town square for a public beating, religion is a funny thing. I don't think they can be held for neglecting the child, but I do think they need to be held responsible for any problems associated with that neglect.

[fohfoh]

those children have been brainwashed into that belief or they would have called 9-1-1 themselves

Reminds me of a show where there's like 4 year old girls who are hardcore white supremacist saying negative things about blacks on video.

[Semnae]

The following isn't about the same case, but is still relevant to the topic.

A central Wisconsin father charged with reckless homicide for not taking his dying daughter to a doctor told police that he believed God would heal her and that he thought she was simply sleeping when she became unconscious.

Madeline Neumann died on March 23, 2008, from undiagnosed diabetes on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded the 11-year-old girl and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.

Prosecutors contend her father, Dale Neumann, had a legal duty to take his weakened daughter to a doctor. A videotape of his interview with police after her death was shown to jurors during his trial Wednesday before prosecutors rested their case.

Neumann, 47, told the judge that he planned to testify in his defense.

In the interview with Everest Metro Police Department detective Scott Sleeter, Neumann described the weeks leading up to Madeline's death, when he said she was a "little weak and a little slower," something he attributed to puberty. Her condition deteriorated, and by the day before her death, he said, Madeline could not walk or talk.

"We just trusted the Lord for complete healing," he said. "We didn't really sense it was like a life-and-death situation. We figured there was something really fighting in her body. We asked people to join with us in prayer agreement."

Neumann said it never crossed his mind that his daughter might have lost consciousness.

"She was just sleeping," Neumann said. "I didn't believe at all that the Lord would even allow her to pass."

Neumann also told the detective that "sickness is a result of sin" and that his daughter's death had not shaken his faith.

About a half-hour before the girl stopped breathing, one of the friends who was praying with the family suggested he take the girl to a hospital, the father said.

"I wasn't taken back by it, and I understood where he was coming from," Neumann said. "We just weren't doubting the Lord. The word says that we shall be healed."

The family does not belong to an organized religion, and Neumann's wife, Leilani Neumann, testified Tuesday that she and her husband have nothing against doctors. But, she said, she viewed Madeline's illness as "something spiritual."

Leilani Neumann was convicted of second-degree reckless homicide this spring and faces up to 25 years in prison when sentenced Oct. 6.

Dr. Joseph Monaco, who worked on Madeline when she was brought to the hospital after she had stopped breathing, said she was "very, very emaciated and wasted."

However, Lou Ann Esko, the defense's first witness, said she saw Madeline working at the Neumanns' coffee shop days before she died and that the girl looked fine.

"She was perky. She was smiling and chipper like she always was," Esko said.

Last week, an Oregon jury convicted a man of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment for relying on prayer instead of seeking medical care for his 15-month-old daughter who died of pneumonia and a blood infection in March 2008. Both of the girl's parents were acquitted of a more serious manslaughter charge. -Associated Press

[forevr]

Didn't notice this thread until the bump. I voted "yes".
I also think circumcision should be illegal to preform on infants.

Edit: Maybe not after all. Then all the religious lunatics will start doing it a home...

[IceRiccy]

Religions are the base of everything that goes wrong in this world. They should be exterminated. Besides religion holds no value within the modern world, thus should be disbanded, exterminated including its followers. (yes im harsh)

Its a good thing the court over ruled the verdict. A child should not have to die because of the parents stupidity.

[mgz]

Didn't notice this thread until the bump. I voted "yes".
I also think circumcision should be illegal to preform on infants.

Edit: Maybe not after all. Then all the religious lunatics will start doing it a home...

not to mention there are health reasons primarily that cause it to be a common practice.

Fact uncircumcised dick = more likely to get dick cancer