Had a separate thread, but Tatsujin pointed out it should really go here. I don't post that often, but I should probably know the rules. Anyway.
My dissection of the Saber character. First, through Fate/Zero, and then into Fate/stay Night. Agree, disagree? Bear with me, if you can. I realize it's a bit long. Before we get into it, yes, I enjoyed Fate/Zero; I didn't enjoy Fate/stay night.
Saber. Arthur Pendragon. Or rather Arturia Pendragon, the legendary king of camelot, seeker of the Grail - the key impetus for the story. She lives up to her name: she is relentlessly noble, chivalrous, and idealistic to a fault.
So far, so good - we have a capable woman who ruled over an iconic kingdom.
By appropriating the male-ness from a legend, the creators are making an ostensibly feminist statement: it is equally plausible that the skill, the myth, and the kingship could have been granted to a "she". And, if one was feeling charitable, Saber’s deception might be seen as a positive. Not only was she Arthur, but she was able to orchestrate the creation of a male Arthur to better suit the needs of the people she served. She was a “clever girl”.
Unfortunately for Saber, the feminism present in the concept of the character is undermined by near constant humiliation by her opponents and allies alike. Pendragon’s kingship? A fool’s errand by a naive youth. Gender? A sign of frailty. Battlefield skills? Though she is frequently said to be powerful, she is proved time and again to be essentially unimpressive and inept, with *few* exceptions. Her ideals? The misguided pride of a delusional woman, deconstructed and dismissed; whereas the ideals of her opponents are respected, if not enthusiastically endorsed (even if they happen to be serial killers or self-involved, murderous conquerors).
Kitsurigu's treats her like dirt for the reasons above. His motives are described as sympathetic. But his sympathy (not empathy) boils down to this: though a young Arthur could have handled a kingship, a young Arturia could not. Therefore: continual abuse.
Shirou is his father's son. He, with no battle skills, is willing to sacrifice his life multiple times because of the central premise that a woman, despite being a legendary warrior, should not face battle. This indicates his patronization chivalry. He then attempts to domesticate her, and succeeds. Why is Arturia attached to her new clothes? Because Shirou said they looked good on her!
Suddenly, this legendary warrior, this king, is a delicate flower, drawn to the first man to show even a remote interest. It seems all she needed was a good lecturing to put her in her place as a submissive woman; and of course, such submission naturally leads to romance. Forget the gender issues. It's simply implausible.
Effectively, The Fate series negates any notion that "Arturia" Pendragon has any relation to "Arthur" Pendragon.
My subtitle for the series? The Humiliation of Arturia.
What do you think?
RE: Mistgun from the other thread.
Hmmmm.
Ok...
Well, I am not really sure I should agree with your opinion. I think I would actually go with Emiya kiritsugu. You should understand the reason that Emiya doesn't like saber is not purely not because a girl but because she is a child. He is angry at the fact that despite being a child she chose to accept the role. However he understands, yes he does, that he has no right whatsoever to judge her. Since he can't actually accepts it he keeps his distant from her. Humiliation? No. He doesn't like a person and didn't want to deal with it. He left her to her job.
But then there is also the hate he has for the knights. Watch what he says in episode 14/15 of fate/zero.
So, yeah by the end of fate/zero, even though many would feel sorry for saber, I really wouldn't. I won't say she got what she deserved, but she doesn't really get any sympathy.
If there was anyone who actually deserved sympathy, it would be Sakura (Tohsaka second child). At an young age (8?) she was not only sold out by her father but was completely broken as well. Next would be Rin, Sakura's elder sister (twins?). She too lost her family and she never knew how it happened.
While kiritsugu was rather a bastard at the start, at the very end he does realize his mistake and does one right going which is raise shiro correctly, for that he gets the praise.
Now for fate/stay night. Shiro is his fathers son alright. And yes, he falls in love in saber and decides to save her. Why? Cause he only sees a girl his age lost in a daydream.
But what if the genders were reversed. Shiro, as a girl and saber as a 16 year old king trying to do rewind things because he didn't like the result and doesn't want to deal with it and wants everything back to how it was. And assuming shiro (the girl) treats him tenderly and actually opens his eyes, and gives him what his people never really gave him. Real love and belonging. I think the ending would still be the same. It's is cheeky, but fate/stay night is more of a romance rather than action.
Humiliation of King Arthur? Hmm. Not really. More like his struggle even after death (or whatever it was) till he finds love and belonging and how he could finally rest in peace.
Edit: the thing is everyone RESPECTED Saber. Perhaps only kiritsugu didn't. Even shiro respected her so did her country's people. But no one loved or made her feel that she belonged with them.
That is what she didn't have and while the father failed, the son succeeded in giving her that.
I really don't think achiving or actually struggling to be loved is humiliating.
I would say this.
My point about Emiya is that I don't think he would of had the same reaction were Saber to be found out to be a young man; difficult to prove, as there aren't other summons who look like whatever age she is, really.
The thing is about the respect element is that I find it operates much like her power - she is respected in theory, but not in practice. Certainly they say they respect her. Yet, I'm struck by the moment in Fate/zero that the other Kings essentially sit her down and use her as punching bag; the target of their conversation quickly turns to Arturia, and essentially how she is ultimately delusional and a failure as a ruler; reminded of again and again of what she already knows: she sees the often pictured mountain of dead soldiers as her fault. That's where I get my sympathy from, because it's a theme before and after. In stay night, she is essentially reduced to an object of lust, either by Shiro or by the madman Gilgamesh.
I'm not arguing Arturia to be the most sympathetic character in general, and I'm with you on feeling more sorry for the characters you mentioned.
Reversing the gender roles is an interesting experiment. In your version, it actually sounds natural; but this is because gender roles in both series are strictly heteronormative. Because of this, it would be even less plausible that female Shiro tries to take the hit for "Arthur". The sticking point for me: the domestication element, which is a bit of a stretch, and the idea that Shiro throws himself into danger despite her being a knight. I'd argue that he's an idiot - fair enough, it's part of the character. But his actions are portrayed as noble. Ultimately I find them disrespectful. She pleads with him to stop, and zealously, he refuses. Consequently, Arturia is forced into a greater danger than before by having to rescue him time and again. At a certain point, it becomes more about Shiro's needs than Arturia's needs.
As for Arturia and romance: she already had love. She had Guinevere. So why would she suddenly be so soft? All Shiro did was make her into an image of what he thought a woman should be, in demeanor, in dress, in battle - with help from his friends.
It's not as if the past isn't fresh in her mind. Yes, Arturia is portrayed as the king, truly alone in her duty and deception; but there were other ways Shiro could have shown love without trying to change every facet of her. But fair point: you're right that it is centrally a romance, a cheesy one. For me, it's confounding that they used her to tell this love story - why dredge her up if only to attempt to change her?
