Discussion Forums > Politics
Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
kyanwan:
--- Quote from: nates1984 on July 16, 2009, 12:10:55 AM ---
--- Quote ---This is what I think. As I stated above, the rich do most of the investing in the world, so if you squeeze them harder, it will only hurt the people at the bottom.
--- End quote ---
The twentieth century called, they want their bullshit trickle-down economics back.
Seriously, if you still think trickle-down works, you're a fucking fool.
The people on the bottom are pretty much fucked no matter what.
--- End quote ---
Ok - trickle down economics don't work. Let me prove you wrong.
Here, real figures - let's see how much money the whole country makes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_of_three _stock_indices_afte r_1975.svg
http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=149
Now, provide your data that the US is not making more money than ever before. Notice the average trend of growth. Where does the slope of the trend of growth shift to a far greater rate?
Look at the graphs, and tell me.
We've had nearly 30 years to collect data on the failure known as "Reaganomics" - and promoting success and entrepreneurship.
Let me count the accomplishments of the United States, post Reaganomics - post encouraging entrepreneurship:
- Internet.
- Google
- Microsoft
- iPod
- Facebook
- Myspace
- Twitter
- iPhone
- Xbox
- All the killer US-designed video games we play
- World of Warcraft
- Quake ( John Romero: IF the guy couldn't have made a good chunk of cash - do you think he would have done it? )
- Do I really need to go on?
Now hold on a second - do you think, do you honestly deep down inside - do you really think people would have invented the iPhone if they knew they could only make $200,000 a year after taxes - even if they made millions?
Do you think people would work themselves to this - literally, to death - if there were no rewards to be reaped?
But hey, these guys are a couple of the monsters you're referring to. They've got to pay their fair share. Only 85% of the nation's tax burden isn't enough. They need to pay MORE. MORE. MORE. Jackson there - he did work himself to death. Poor guy was trying to dig himself out of debt, and his body couldn't take it.
What incentive does someone have to work themselves to the bone, literally, if the Government will take everything away? You will not like what society will become ... if this becomes the case. Look at the cultural wasteland that was the Soviet Union. You forget who the rich are - not just investors. Entertainers, inventors, doctors as well. This will demolish our society - the United States as you know it - will be history.
If people choose to sit around getting drunk, having sex, playing games, watching TV, that's not my tough shit. We've got trillions of dollars to be had. It's a shame that only what - 5% of our population decides to take a chunk for themselves. If you want to start your own operation - what's stopping you, no really - tell me - what's stopping you from starting a business?
- Federal Taxpayer ID number: Free.
- State business license: $50.00 in my state.
- City business registration: $10.00.
- Brains: Now, this, you can't buy.
So tell me -
what will your boss be able to pay you - if he can only make $200,000 a year? Do you think your quality of life will be better?
What will happen to the fortunes we've amassed since the 80s?
And by the way - what's your job? Are you a professional? Are you done with college? Do you even know what real life is yet? If you're in your teens - you're still literally in diapers - as the real world is concerned.
IMO - voting age should be 21 - done with college, and a contributing member of society.
--- Quote from: nates1984 on July 16, 2009, 12:36:29 AM ---
--- Quote ---But it's not like the top is an exclusive club. Most of the people at the top started at *gasp* the bottom.
--- End quote ---
Define bottom, because I think you're full of shit. Protip: Bill Gates was NOT at the bottom.
--- End quote ---
His family was upper middle class;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates
Protip Fact: Upper middle class is not rich.
I've got a lawyer relative. He's no millionaire - not by a longshot.
Middle class. It's the class where you make enough to take out a mortgage to buy a house, and get a loan to buy a car - and you have enough money at 65 to live comfortably until you die 5 years later. See if someone "middle class" can go out and start a, we'll start small, dunkin donuts - if they wanted to.
That's not "the top" in my books.
That's whatever. That's regular old person.
Another thing to consider when you think of "the bottom":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States
We have an estimated 40M people who have immigrated - with a million coming in each year. This is a spike in the statistics. 10% of the nation potentially at the bottom of the barrel - not by any fault of the United States.
Plus the illegal people, who, should not even be counted in my opinion. They're criminals, they deserve nothing - not even respect. ( * Though I do say the lack of a guest worker program does us harm in this matter. They should easily - and without many restrictions - be allowed to leave & enter, work, and pay taxes at a slightly higher rate than a citizen --- for the privilege of working here legally as a guest. )
--- Quote from: queenmetroid on July 16, 2009, 12:51:15 AM ---Drunk college student? That is in fact, where I am right now. (Except I'm sober.)
If I want to start a company and make a million, there's nothing stopping me. That doesn't mean I'll suceed. See, life is not a guaranteed sucess, and not very many people make it to the top. Most of the time, it's luck, or being in the right place at the right time. Granted, it takes money to breed money, but buying stocks or starting is something the average person can do quite easily.
--- End quote ---
True. But, it doesn't take millions to start a great business. It takes a bright person, some will, a whole bunch of HARD work ( seriously - look at Steve Jobs up there. Do you think he got sick like that from sitting around? ), and even more discipline.
The biggest mistake people who get into business make - is this.
They think they made it, when they didn't. And then they start blowing the ground from under their feet. ( In other words - they make a whole lot of money, and think "hey, this is a LOT!!!!" - and they start spending like mad ... until they ruin themselves, and exit the game --- OR --- they start off like they're on the top, way too fast for their own good ... and end up running themselves into the ground. This happens all too often. )
[Edit: This post is WAY too damn big.]
queenmetroid:
--- Quote from: kyanwan on July 16, 2009, 06:42:12 AM ---[Edit: This post is WAY too damn big.]
--- End quote ---
Not really, I read all of it. I'm glad you mentioned hard work, though. I forgot about that bit.
vicious796:
I also support the notions in the large post except one thing that isn't pointed out:
Not everyone can do such a thing. Why? There are stupid people in the world, a mass of them in the United States. I don't support the stupid but it seems the Democrats do, it's how they get elected afterall.
flaresignal:
--- Quote from: kyanwan on July 15, 2009, 09:36:46 PM ---Now - if we have a progressive rate, that keeps on going higher - what happens?
This rich guy has no benefit to work harder, pay people, hire people - what's his motivation?
Progressive tax is a nationwide salary & earnings cap - and an effective ban on entrepreneurship & investment.
--- End quote ---
Um... we're talking about an increase in the top marginal tax rate, meaning that a graph like yours is wrong. Popping into a higher tax bracket doesn't mean that all of your income is magically taxed at that rate.
kyanwan:
I've heard rates rising to 90% quoted. The higher the tax ,the more you pay. If the rate progresses high enough, there will be a breaking point where additional investment, profits, expansion - is not in the best interest in the worker.
Everyone is a worker, whether you are screwing cars together, or moving money around to build corporations.
One requires your hands, the other requires your brains.
Reward - is what motivates the hardest of work, the further you push yourself, the better you become. What is the ultimate goal of the brain worker? To build fortunes one can only dream of. How do you do this? By putting all of your money forth, working with it, then building carefully for years on end.
Similarly - we'll take a car mechanic for example. While he is no investment banker - what can he do to become "successful"?
Open his own shop. Save, spend smart, open another shop. Repeat until satisfied.
( Oh, and did I forget to mention - how is this one mechanic going to work in every single shop? It's impossible. How many jobs does this man create due to his efforts? )
You chain your successes, and never think you made it - that's how you make it.
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