Author Topic: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.  (Read 8862 times)

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2009, 12:29:06 AM »
Quote
This is what I think. As I stated above, the rich do most of the investing in the world, so if you squeeze them harder, it will only hurt the people at the bottom.

The twentieth century called, they want their bullshit trickle-down economics back.

Seriously, if you still think trickle-down works, you're a fucking fool.

The people on the bottom are pretty much fucked no matter what.

But it's not like the top is an exclusive club. Most of the people at the top started at *gasp* the bottom.
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Offline nates1984

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2009, 12:36:29 AM »
Quote
But it's not like the top is an exclusive club. Most of the people at the top started at *gasp* the bottom.

Define bottom, because I think you're full of shit. Protip: Bill Gates was NOT at the bottom.

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 12:51:15 AM »
Drunk college student? That is in fact, where I am right now. (Except I'm sober.)

If I want to start a company and make a million, there's nothing stopping me. That doesn't mean I'll suceed. See, life is not a guaranteed sucess, and not very many people make it to the top. Most of the time, it's luck, or being in the right place at the right time. Granted, it takes money to breed money, but buying stocks or starting is something the average person can do quite easily.
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Offline relic2279

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 01:39:46 AM »

This rich guy has no benefit to work harder, pay people, hire people - what's his motivation?

Money. Just not as much. For some reason you think these guys are actually busting their chops running corporations like Ford, GE or Microsoft and barely scraping by. You're wrong.

I say good. Let someone in who wants to better himself and make money, versus the people who want to milk/bilk it for as much as they can get. If these morons left, or quit, there is still a void that needs to be filled.

Do you think if Microsoft closed up shop, decided not make another OS and dissolve, no one would fill their shoes? Are you that naive? That's my point. Let them threaten to leave. Hell, LET them leave. They remind me of the kid with the only football in the neighborhood. He doesn't like the rules getting changed so he stops playing. Though, there is still a desire to play football, so either someone there will buy another one, or a new kid will move in with one. They will play, even when the rules get changed.


Offline Stsin

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 06:06:25 AM »
Why close up, when you can just leave the country?

Businesses have already moved elsewhere, like Canada and Mexico...thanks to Nafta.

Oh well, they are still doing as fine as ever, except for those that were previously employed here in the US, LOL.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 06:42:12 AM »
Quote
This is what I think. As I stated above, the rich do most of the investing in the world, so if you squeeze them harder, it will only hurt the people at the bottom.

The twentieth century called, they want their bullshit trickle-down economics back.

Seriously, if you still think trickle-down works, you're a fucking fool.

The people on the bottom are pretty much fucked no matter what.

Ok - trickle down economics don't work.   Let me prove you wrong.  

Here, real figures - let's see how much money the whole country makes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_of_three _stock_indices_afte r_1975.svg

http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=149

Now, provide your data that the US is not making more money than ever before.   Notice the average trend of growth.   Where does the slope of the trend of growth shift to a far greater rate?

Look at the graphs, and tell me.

We've had nearly 30 years to collect data on the failure known as "Reaganomics" - and promoting success and entrepreneurship.

Let me count the accomplishments of the United States, post Reaganomics - post encouraging entrepreneurship:

- Internet.  
- Google
- Microsoft
- iPod
- Facebook
- Myspace
- Twitter
- iPhone
- Xbox
- All the killer US-designed video games we play
- World of Warcraft
- Quake ( John Romero:   IF the guy couldn't have made a good chunk of cash - do you think he would have done it? )
- Do I really need to go on?

Now hold on a second - do you think, do you honestly deep down inside - do you really think people would have invented the iPhone if they knew they could only make $200,000 a year after taxes - even if they made millions?

Do you think people would work themselves to this - literally, to death - if there were no rewards to be reaped?


But hey, these guys are a couple of the monsters you're referring to.   They've got to pay their fair share.   Only 85% of the nation's tax burden isn't enough.   They need to pay MORE.  MORE.  MORE.   Jackson there - he did work himself to death.   Poor guy was trying to dig himself out of debt, and his body couldn't take it.

What incentive does someone have to work themselves to the bone, literally, if the Government will take everything away?  You will not like what society will become ... if this becomes the case.   Look at the cultural wasteland that was the Soviet Union.   You forget who the rich are - not just investors.  Entertainers, inventors, doctors as well.   This will demolish our society - the United States as you know it - will be history.  

If people choose to sit around getting drunk, having sex, playing games, watching TV, that's not my tough shit.   We've got trillions of dollars to be had.   It's a shame that only what - 5% of our population decides to take a chunk for themselves.  If you want to start your own operation - what's stopping you, no really - tell me - what's stopping you from starting a business?

- Federal Taxpayer ID number:  Free.
- State business license:  $50.00 in my state.
- City business registration:  $10.00.  
- Brains:  Now, this, you can't buy.

So tell me -

what will your boss be able to pay you - if he can only make $200,000 a year?   Do you think your quality of life will be better?  

What will happen to the fortunes we've amassed since the 80s?

And by the way - what's your job?   Are you a professional?  Are you done with college?   Do you even know what real life is yet?   If you're in your teens - you're still literally in diapers - as the real world is concerned.

IMO - voting age should be 21 - done with college, and a contributing member of society.


Quote
But it's not like the top is an exclusive club. Most of the people at the top started at *gasp* the bottom.

Define bottom, because I think you're full of shit. Protip: Bill Gates was NOT at the bottom.

His family was upper middle class;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates

Protip Fact:  Upper middle class is not rich.

I've got a lawyer relative.   He's no millionaire - not by a longshot.  

Middle class.   It's the class where you make enough to take out a mortgage to buy a house, and get a loan to buy a car - and you have enough money at 65 to live comfortably until you die 5 years later.   See if someone "middle class" can go out and start a, we'll start small, dunkin donuts - if they wanted to.  

That's not "the top" in my books.

That's whatever.   That's regular old person.


Another thing to consider when you think of "the bottom":  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States

We have an estimated 40M people who have immigrated - with a million coming in each year.    This is a spike in the statistics.   10% of the nation potentially at the bottom of the barrel - not by any fault of the United States.  

Plus the illegal people, who, should not even be counted in my opinion.   They're criminals, they deserve nothing - not even respect.  ( * Though I do say the lack of a guest worker program does us harm in this matter.   They should easily - and without many restrictions - be allowed to leave &  enter, work, and pay taxes at a slightly higher rate than a citizen --- for the privilege of working here legally as a guest. )

Drunk college student? That is in fact, where I am right now. (Except I'm sober.)

If I want to start a company and make a million, there's nothing stopping me. That doesn't mean I'll suceed. See, life is not a guaranteed sucess, and not very many people make it to the top. Most of the time, it's luck, or being in the right place at the right time. Granted, it takes money to breed money, but buying stocks or starting is something the average person can do quite easily.

True.   But, it doesn't take millions to start a great business.   It takes a bright person, some will, a whole bunch of HARD work ( seriously - look at Steve Jobs up there.  Do you think he got sick like that from sitting around? ), and even more discipline.  

The biggest mistake people who get into business make - is this.  

They think they made it, when they didn't.   And then they start blowing the ground from under their feet.   ( In other words - they make a whole lot of money, and think "hey, this is a LOT!!!!" - and they start spending like mad ... until they ruin themselves, and exit the game --- OR --- they start off like they're on the top, way too fast for their own good ... and end up running themselves into the ground.   This happens all too often. )  

[Edit:  This post is WAY too damn big.]
« Last Edit: July 16, 2009, 07:09:18 AM by kyanwan »
Nothing.

Offline queenmetroid

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 07:21:41 PM »
[Edit:  This post is WAY too damn big.]

Not really, I read all of it. I'm glad you mentioned hard work, though. I forgot about that bit.
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 07:58:26 PM »
I also support the notions in the large post except one thing that isn't pointed out:

Not everyone can do such a thing. Why? There are stupid people in the world, a mass of them in the United States. I don't support the stupid but it seems the Democrats do, it's how they get elected afterall.


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Offline flaresignal

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 09:28:20 PM »
Now - if we have a progressive rate, that keeps on going higher - what happens?



This rich guy has no benefit to work harder, pay people, hire people - what's his motivation?

Progressive tax is a nationwide salary & earnings cap - and an effective ban on entrepreneurship & investment.

Um... we're talking about an increase in the top marginal tax rate, meaning that a graph like yours is wrong. Popping into a higher tax bracket doesn't mean that all of your income is magically taxed at that rate.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2009, 08:09:04 PM »
I've heard rates rising to 90% quoted.   The higher the tax ,the more you pay.   If the rate progresses high enough, there will be a breaking point where additional investment, profits, expansion - is not in the best interest in the worker.

Everyone is a worker, whether you are screwing cars together, or moving money around to build corporations.

One requires your hands, the other requires your brains.

Reward - is what motivates the hardest of work, the further you push yourself, the better you become.   What is the ultimate goal of the brain worker?   To build fortunes one can only dream of.   How do you do this?  By putting all of your money forth, working with it, then building carefully for years on end.

Similarly - we'll take a car mechanic for example.   While he is no investment banker - what can he do to become "successful"?

Open his own shop.   Save, spend smart, open another shop.   Repeat until satisfied. 

( Oh, and did I forget to mention - how is this one mechanic going to work in every single shop?   It's impossible.   How many jobs does this man create due to his efforts? )

You chain your successes, and never think you made it - that's how you make it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 08:13:21 PM by kyanwan »
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Offline Sosseres

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2009, 08:14:13 AM »
Similarly - we'll take a car mechanic for example.   While he is no investment banker - what can he do to become "successful"?

He can win the international championship and become famous and get to work in a nice relaxed environment with slightly higher rates than normal. That would probably make that person more happy than running a chain...

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2009, 11:49:00 PM »
Similarly - we'll take a car mechanic for example.   While he is no investment banker - what can he do to become "successful"?

He can win the international championship and become famous and get to work in a nice relaxed environment with slightly higher rates than normal. That would probably make that person more happy than running a chain...

But, for how many people is that an option, or a possibility?   A very few, even fewer that would have the initiative to start their own chain of shops.    ^_^   Not to mention, how many people would benefit from jobs and job creation - by a single shop or limited number - than someone who had the drive to make dozens. 
Nothing.

Offline Nanonanol

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2009, 12:29:58 AM »
kyanwan, before you talk about all the accomplishments of the US since Reagan, you might want to check some dates.

(I'd quote your post on this, but it's a bit too long  :P)

Anyway, you can trace the beginning of the Internet, Microsoft, computers, and cell phones to before Reagan. The invention of the Internet certainly contributed to the increase in entrepreneurship (i.e. Google, Facebook).

And as for your question of the fortune the US has amassed since 1980's .... what fortunes are you talking about? Sure the US is an economic titan, but last I checked, the debt has grown past $10 trillion.

As for the whole issue with the new tax bracket - I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, but rather a bit narrow minded. Sure it would help bring in more taxes, but the concentration should be put on stopping frivolous spending, rather than finding sources to support such spending.
A step in the right direction would include cutting back on pork barrel legislation, and earmarks on bills, as well as staying the fuck out of countries we don't belong in. And hell, maybe we could save some money if we weren't so hypocritical on the whole weapons issue.
Yes, other countries have weapons, but telling them to stop producing, and testing weapons by pointing a gun at their head is hardly the right way to solve the issue.

Oh, and of course legalizing marijuana would be a great way to bring in some extra revenue.

Offline vicious796

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2009, 01:57:37 AM »
You can also trace bread back to before it came packaged sliced, does that mean the slicer is useless?
I think not.

I've always stated:

legalize pot and prostitution and tax the shit out of it and watch the deficit go away


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Offline nstgc

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2009, 06:37:46 PM »
I like that idea, but I still think it would be good to include more tax brackets.

Offline kyanwan

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2009, 09:03:27 PM »
I've got no problem with legalizing pot. 

Legalize it.   Tax the fuck out of it.   

It'll kill:

- crime
- prison overpopulation
- AND revenues on top of it.

People smoke the shit anyway, nothing's stopping it either.   Make it priced around what it is illegally - with the bulk of the cost as tax.
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Offline relic2279

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2009, 11:59:26 PM »
You libertarians might like this,

Reason why pot is still illegal is because the 'drug war' funnels money from you and me in the form of taxes to the government. And not just the federal government. Huge percentages go to your local city and state government coffers.

Not only that, when your city and state (excluding DEA) drug enforcement programs seize assets (cars, money, property etc...), it doesn't go back to you. It goes right into your local cities coffers.

Basically, the drug war is another way to take money from you, and give it to politicians (at the local and state level) to spend as they wish.

It's revenue.

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2009, 06:27:36 AM »
Driving + High... Do you know how fucked up that is? Also... you can't test for it. You kind of wake up when high... but drive while high... that's scary as shit. (I know.. I've done it before)
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Offline August Osari

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2009, 06:55:04 AM »
Almost all of the countries with the highest standards of living are on the left.

The Democrats are on the right. The Republicans are on the far, far, far right. The USA has very low standards of living compared to every other "developed" country.

Think about that.

Also, the only arguments I'm seeing in this thread are "RICH PEOPLE ARE JERKS SO WE HAVE TO BRIBE THEM." Sure, they're jerks. That's why you SHOULDN'T GIVE THEM MORE MONEY. They don't even try to earn it. You should only get paid if you produce something, and all these people do is move money around, producing nothing.

Why are you so willing to pay countless billions of dollars at these people for them to just go around telling you what to do? Believe it or not, they can be replaced.

Offline vicious796

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Re: Democrats want to separate the rich, from the very rich.
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2009, 01:44:35 PM »
Driving + High... Do you know how fucked up that is? Also... you can't test for it. You kind of wake up when high... but drive while high... that's scary as shit. (I know.. I've done it before)

This is why it's illegal, not revenue. I've mentioned this several times in a multitude of other threads as well. How do I know this? Do I have some conspiracy theory with no backing? No. My brother-in-law works for the DEA and has told me, several times, about the different test methods they have in development. There's also the moral opposition of the older, older, older generation that's still dying out.

The real problem lies in a lack of a precise instrument that's non-intrusive (no road side blood tests or saliva swabs) and cost-effective to produce. I assure you, there's more money to be had in a special sales tax than a war-on-drugs tax from the 90s.

Almost all of the countries with the highest standards of living are on the left.

The Democrats are on the right. The Republicans are on the far, far, far right. The USA has very low standards of living compared to every other "developed" country.

Think about that.

Also, the only arguments I'm seeing in this thread are "RICH PEOPLE ARE JERKS SO WE HAVE TO BRIBE THEM." Sure, they're jerks. That's why you SHOULDN'T GIVE THEM MORE MONEY. They don't even try to earn it. You should only get paid if you produce something, and all these people do is move money around, producing nothing.

Why are you so willing to pay countless billions of dollars at these people for them to just go around telling you what to do? Believe it or not, they can be replaced.

Here's a stupid statement. On what are you determining standard of living? Homeownership? We're 3rd or 4th in the world despite our considerably larger population. Median income? 2nd only to Switzerland. The gay UN Human Development Index? 15th.

You want to take over General Motors and do a better job? Care to handle that kind've pressure? 20 bucks says you're under 20 years old.


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