Crazy economic growth of China

[darkjedi]

Yes they can influence the world economy, that's why they are economical great powers, however if one of the real superpowers would just disappear, it would not influence the economy, but literally destroy it. And that is an economical superpower.

So if S.Korea suddenly disappears, there will be big fluxuations in world economy. If however USA suddenly disappears and with them the dollar, then the current economy will collapse completely. *Poof* fucking gone.

A superpower is a state with a leading position in the international system and the ability to influence events and its own interests and project power on a worldwide scale to protect those interests; it is traditionally considered to be one step higher than a great power.

Oh well, you making up your own definitions for terms that the definition is already agreed on is nothing new.

Hah. Japan or India or South Korea aren't even great powers in any other arena than economy, (except maybe Japan in cultural arena) but my definition of 'economic superpower' will still apply to those countries even by international standard. If it didn't, then even Germany is not a superpower, because it has no aircraft carrier and its culture is not dominant.   But it has strong enough economic power to rattle the entire structure of the E.U. market that can in turn crash the U.S. market, and so on. It will greatly sway the balance in China's favor, who has the world's 3rd biggest market share, next to E.U. and U.S. I see that you doubt the credibility of India as an economic superpower on account of low GDP per capita and that of South Korea for having a meager 1.4 trillion USD purchasing power, but if either of those countries are gone, what do you think will happen to China, when those two countries constitute 30-40% of China's market? It will once again tip the balance in the West's favor, then voila, U.S.'s global market industries take the thrones again, and East's back to the Dark Age, then comes the recession once more. (may or may not; but China's market crashing due to removal of India and South Korea is very dangerous)  The world can bear Indonesia being gone, so Indonesia is not a superpower, but India, and South Korea, they can't. Quite a few world leaders will be crying to have them come back. I know India and South Korea are not full-fledged superpowers given their insufficient military force projection and lack of cultural and political impact, (not even Japan, in fact) but economically, they can be. Their economy can cause more than mere fluctuations in world economy, that's what I believe, and that's where our beliefs differ.

Sadly the Earth can't support another huge consumer market resource wise, at least that is the feeling I've gotten in recent years.

True. I also feel that we should be drilling asteroids by the next 40 years or our grandchildren will be riding bicycles instead of hypersonic jetliners.

[AceHigh]

Hah. Japan or India or South Korea aren't even great powers in any other arena than economy, (except maybe Japan in cultural arena) but my definition of 'economic superpower' will still apply to those countries even by international standard.

Eh..... no.

If it didn't, then even Germany is not a superpower, because it has no aircraft carrier and its culture is not dominant.

Not a dominant culture? ßut the language is so fun here, ßasically I have heard every single language except German so far, ßut the culture is full of weirdness. I have already seen so many complete weirdos that I stopped commenting aßout that after a while. Oh, ßy the way their keyßoard is funny, Y and Z switched places 
And no, Germany is not a super power in either aspect.

  But it has strong enough economic power to rattle the entire structure of the E.U. market that can in turn crash the U.S. market, and so on.

Yeah, they made EU because they are not superpowers on their own. In a union however, the economy is bigger then the US one making it the dominant one in the world. Still, we are talking about countries, not unions so EU is irrelevant.

I see that you doubt the credibility of India as an economic superpower on account of low GDP per capita and that of South Korea for having a meager 1.4 trillion USD purchasing power, but if either of those countries are gone, what do you think will happen to China, when those two countries constitute 30-40% of China's market?

Not India, only S Korea. It is a great economical power, but not a super power. It has 1/14 of US GDP, that's not even close to "domination"

All your arguments still prove that they are economically great powers, still not superpowers.

[Morgia]

*notes to herself* never leave Ace alone with a german keyboard...

about non-dominant culture: have you ever noticed that most of Europe has basically the same culture with just a few local differences... and that christianity-influenced culture (based on European conquering and settlement stuff back in the days) is now the most dominant in the whole world? *just pointing out*

[darkjedi]

Eh..... no.

Yeah, right. Remove any of them from the GM, and see what happens. Their economic interests reach everywhere in the world, and they have the means to completely protect those interests, relatively speaking. Therefore they are economic superpowers. What's wrong with trying to distinguish a full superpower (U.S.) from an economic or political superpower? (We have a lot here; various members of the E.U., Russia, China, Japan, and a few from the G20)

And no, Germany is not a super power in either aspect.

If we divide E.U. into its member states Germany will have 3rd largest market share in the world... what do you think is gonna happen if Germany disintegrates?

Yeah, they made EU because they are not superpowers on their own. In a union however, the economy is bigger then the US one making it the dominant one in the world. Still, we are talking about countries, not unions so EU is irrelevant.

I'm only telling you the extent of Germany's influence with regards to world economy. Germany is a major driving force of the world economy precisely because it's a very big major member of E.U. Germany's international trade revenue reaches 90% of China's.

Not India, only S Korea. It is a great economical power, but not a super power. It has 1/14 of US GDP, that's not even close to "domination"

Yeah right, when S.Korea's share in the Western market is many times bigger than India's... S.Korea don't have the means to 'dominate', because they can't enforce their strategic interests through military or political means. (neither do most other economic superpowers except U.S.; Russia can't do it militarily, Japan can't do it politically nor militarily; and individually E.U. can't do anything; but India and China can protect their economic interests militarily even though their political influence is very minimal) But economically they can assert great pressure that causes more than 'fluctuations'. Our conflicts arise precisely because you use the GDP comparison between the US and South Korea as an argument for saying that South Korea is only an economic great power whose un-cooperation (why isn't there an English word like this?) in the global market can be forgiven.

All your arguments still prove that they are economically great powers, still not superpowers.

Nah. I accept that neither China nor Japan nor India nor South Korea nor Russia nor anyone who's not U.S. are superpowers, but since you use Wikipedia articles with quality issues as reference we are having a problem reaching a common conclusion. I'm giving you definition that's not in the Wikipedia to differentiate full superpowers and great powers from individual superpowers and great powers, and there's nothing wrong with that, because it serves a purpose, right? China and Russia and E.U. are a 'great power' by Wikipedia standards, but by mine, (and a few million others') they are more than mere 'great powers'. Economically and politically, they are superpowers.

Besides, in my definition, there is no 'great power'; there's only the 'global superpower' and 'regional superpower', unless my translations of Korean definitions is mistaken.




About the European culture: Aside from a few countries who survived the World War II on their own (Britain, France, Sweden, Spain, etc.) most Europe countries are copycats of either U.S. or Soviets with a few individual differences. That's what someone I trust who went to work in Europe and U.S. and Russia few years ago has described to me. I myself hadn't been there yet.

He hadn't been to Norway, though, so I could be wrong about Norway's cultural power, but he generally agrees that Germany doesn't really look that different from U.S. nor U.K. nor Russia in a national level.

[Sosseres]

an economic great power whose un-cooperation (why isn't there an English word like this?) in the global market can be forgiven.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/cooperation

Antonyms:      blockage, delay, encumbrance, handicap, hindrance, obstruction, prevention, stoppage, opposition

[relic2279]

Nah. I accept that neither China nor Japan nor India nor South Korea nor Russia nor anyone who's not U.S. are superpowers

Japan's economy is larger than China's by GDP and they're not considered a super power. It takes more then a robust economy to be considered that class of country. Do they have the potential to become a super power in the next 50-100 years? Sure.

But if they keep doing shady things like manipulating their own currency value, it won't happen sooner then later.

[darkjedi]

Japan's economy is larger than China's by GDP and they're not considered a super power.

I know Japan is not a full superpower, and neither is China. (I just said that lol) But say that they're not an economic superpower in some random university's political discussion forum occupied by economists and political scientists, and you'll be branded as a racist and a simpleton.

And China's PPP greater, and that's what matters more in world economy. Lower nominal GDP only means that China can spare less money for local expenditures but since it has greater PPP its influence in the global market is greater than Japan's.

It takes more then a robust economy to be considered that class of country.

Which kind of country, economic superpower?

[Morgia]

About the European culture: Aside from a few countries who survived the World War II on their own (Britain, France, Sweden, Spain, etc.) most Europe countries are copycats of either U.S. or Soviets with a few individual differences. That's what someone I trust who went to work in Europe and U.S. and Russia few years ago has described to me. I myself hadn't been there yet.

that just made me facepalm... you *do* realize that US "culture" is a copy of European culture and not the other way around... and that "soviet" culture is basically Russia... and russian culture is a largely christian-based european culture as well???
Please note: I am talking about CULTURE here... not brandmarks and trends swapping over somewhere...
(btw: if you were talking about brands and the like...you wouldn't be able to deny a german global influence at all... just think about german cars, customer goods, power tools and other stuff)

Ah btw: South Koreans obviously think their country has a higher international influence in every aspect than the numbers can prove just because it has stirred some attention in the last few months by being threatened by NK...
imo: just let North Korea blow them away... since they're highly overpopulated anyway I guess they would do the world a favor

[darkjedi]

that just made me facepalm... you *do* realize that US "culture" is a copy of European culture and not the other way around... and that "soviet" culture is basically Russia... and russian culture is a largely christian-based european culture as well???
Please note: I am talking about CULTURE here... not brandmarks and trends swapping over somewhere...
(btw: if you were talking about brands and the like...you wouldn't be able to deny a german global influence at all... just think about german cars, customer goods, power tools and other stuff)

Mm, yes, I guess I was a bit too narrow minded. But I still think Germany's still got a lot of cultural influence from U.S. and Soviet during its occupation. Didn't you think so when you were younger?

Lol, I get it now. the U.S. and Soviets were the copycats of European culture and they just gave it back to Germany, right?

Ah btw: South Koreans obviously think their country has a higher international influence in every aspect than the numbers can prove just because it has stirred some attention in the last few months by being threatened by NK...

Lol yeah, I kinda think they are some sort of masochists too. The government's been a bit too cocky about turning SK into an 'economic superpower' from a third world country in less than a decade in the 21st century (I was born when SK was a piece of shit third world) and has ordered the current generations to do whatever the government says, e.g. like clean kitchen sinks or throw yourself in front of tanks and artillery guns armed with nothing but M16 while 1 trillion USD budget is rotting in corruption, but I just want to believe that the government's saying the truth when they say SK's an economic superpower because I hope that will make life easier when I grow older.

imo: just let North Korea blow them away... since they're highly overpopulated anyway I guess they would do the world a favor

I don't want my mom to die, and that's enough reason for me to hope differently. I hope SK becomes a superpower (if it isn't yet) not a pile of ash.



Fixed the first quotation. Read again Morgia. 

[relic2279]

Which kind of country, economic superpower?

Yeah. The manipulating/manipulation of their own yuan dirties any credibility they have. People have been speculating about it for decades. Until they reign it in, they won't be the economic superpower you think them to be.

[darkjedi]

I didn't hear about that currency manipulation before. Now it sounds serious. We don't know how it will affect the economic supremacy of China yet, though, because currency manipulation works two ways; it helps selling things at a more expensive price, but it makes buying also expensive. I think I get it now... they've been selling stuff to the Western world where USD holds higher value and have been buying things from its Asian partners for cheaper price. (compared to USD) I think it will be important how the Eastern market treats the Yuan currency manipulation. If they are fine with it, (keeping USD high is beneficial for countries who export to West more than they import anyway, and most East countries do precisely that) China can keep buying stuff from them, but their export's gonna suffer a bit if it gets negative feedback from the Western market. We also need to know how E.U.'s treating the issue, and how the trend developed recently. All I hear in that article is 'Obama' right now.  It's a bit outdated too.

[AceHigh]

Which kind of country, economic superpower?

Right now, only USA. Because US Dollar is defacto international currency. That is domination and therefore USA is a superpower.

I don't want my mom to die, and that's enough reason for me to hope differently. I hope SK becomes a superpower (if it isn't yet) not a pile of ash.

It is not, and it will never be as long as it's an American bitch just like Japan.

China and Russia and E.U. are a 'great power' by Wikipedia standards, but by mine, (and a few million others') they are more than mere 'great powers'.

I don't care dick for your definitions unless you convince me that they are shared by millions others as you claim. Oh, and those millions overpatriotic Koreans who think they matter is not a valid group of people.

About the European culture: Aside from a few countries who survived the World War II on their own (Britain, France, Sweden, Spain, etc.) most Europe countries are copycats of either U.S. or Soviets with a few individual differences. That's what someone I trust who went to work in Europe and U.S. and Russia few years ago has described to me. I myself hadn't been there yet.

First of all: USA has no culture of it's own. It is one thing the colonist countries that are so young simply don't have. Hell, even language is not yet fully evolved into a unique one. Go to Bavaria and order beer in a maßkrüge, then tell me how it's similar to US or Russian culture. Really, dividing Germany in 2 didn't eliminate their culture and all other countries have their own.

The dude that told you that it is similar has no idea... it's probably a case of "All whites seem the same to me"

[relic2279]

It is not, and it will never be as long as it's an American bitch just like Japan.

Hey. South Korea is our bitch, but Japan is our mistress. Our sick, kinky, perverted but dead sexy mistress.  

As far as North Korea goes, lemme quote Reservoir Dogs:

"If North Korea keeps talkin' like a bitch, we're gonna slap them like a bitch."

[darkjedi]

Right now, only USA. Because US Dollar is defacto international currency. That is domination and therefore USA is a superpower.

We have a problem. It's a paradox. If domination was a requirement for being a superpower, the world should have only one superpower at any given time, but history has taught us that there were two; the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. neither side dominated the global market, or even global politics; (one reason why India remained so powerful despite its precarious strategic position was because both sides lacked force projection on South Asia. And Hong Kong too was under the influence of only a minor power then, and see where it is now) U.S. could have cut ties with some of its stronger Europe allies and Canada all it wanted and all it would have done was them shifting the buyers of its natural gas (a major commodity at that time. Caused a lot of pollution, too) from U.S. to U.S.S.R. Of course, U.S.S.R. had sufficient natural gas and oil reserves in its territory, but the shift of buyers could have become the lever using which U.S.S.R. could have put pressure on U.S. economy, straining its industry. (they lack fuel, duh) In any case, U.S. was far from dominating the global market, because its economy was very dependent on U.S.'s allies willingness to cooperate; yet, it was still a superpower, because it still influenced the world a lot. So was U.S.S.R. also. I don't really know where you get the idea that domination is required for being a superpower, (not even Wikipedia says that lol) when there is the term 'dominant superpower' precisely meant for the kind of superpower that U.S. is now. And even now U.S. is far from completely being dominant in the economic and the political arena. In the East, it's China, Japan, South Korea, and India who control economy and regional politics, not U.S. (just don't get started on 'U.S. fleets defend Japanese airspace', it will be tiring) Even if USD crashed down due to mysterious circumstances (alien invasion, for one) all the world needs doing is to change the de facto international currency from USD to Euro and relocate their major establishments from the American continent to Europe and China. Conversely if either China or E.U. was disintegrated we could shift our attention back to U.S., or just make each countries fend for itself with their own regional trade. (Russia-South Korea-Japan can work rather well, and so can Gulf states-India relationship; both will have enough fuel and industry and labor to survive without the West) A feat easier said than done, yes, but hardly impossible, and it proves that U.S. is no more dominant than E.U. or China is. So there is no '*poof* fucking gone' happening when U.S. is gone, despite it being a superpower. But it's still a superpower, yes. The most powerful one. Even if it wasn't, it still is.

Now, the point is, if U.S. can cause such global instability, can other countries do too? Definitely they can, and those includes India (250 billion USD global market share) and South Korea (400 billion USD global market share). It doesn't matter that those countries' shares are 15%-25% of U.S.'s, as long as they have the capability to blackmail the global market 'meet our demands, or we'll fuck you over'. Remove either of them from the global market and the world will go apeshit over where else to get those lost 250 or 400 billion USD from. Aside from that, the impact on the high-tech market will be particularly great when South Korea is removed because it will increase the demands of high-tech industry in other high-tech exporters significantly (I'm not joking) and therefore cause inflation in a worldwide scale, and that's the start of next recession.  Where do you think Airbus get its avionics spare parts from for their airplanes? U.S.? On the other hand the loss of India will cause deflation in the Gulf states' oil and gas revenue and steal Canada's throne as the main oil exporter in the West as those minor Gulf exporters rushes to sell its oil and gas in the Western world. Now there it is, India and South Korea are major powers of the world economy, with the potential to change global economy as we know it, either through action or inaction, rightfully deserving their titles as economic superpowers. Don't get started on the individual members of the E.U. and Russia and Japan; their shares in the global market might seem small compared to U.S.'s, but their loss is still going to be catastrophic. You can choose believe me or not, I don't care. I believe that the countries you believe are great powers only are in fact superpowers in their respective arenas, and Wikipedia is not going to convince me otherwise.

If you are wondering where I got my 'market share' data from you can try the international monetary fund website aside from EconomyWatch. Its credibility is proven (it's an international organization) and it has a lot of articles that can provide additional information.

[sdedalus83]

For proof of the *poof* fucking gone hypothesis, just look at the nearly catastrophic international effects of the US credit freeze last year.  The European and east Asian markets were hit even harder than ours.  When it looks like the purchaser of nearly 1/3rd of the world's exports starts looking like it might cut back dramatically on importation, the entire world market is fucked.  There is nobody to shift that business to; it really would simply disappear.

[darkjedi]

I did look at it. Losing 1/3 of the world's buyer is indeed catastrophic but at the same time we also have 1/4 less exports to buy off from them. Tough job, yes, but not completely unrecoverable, because we have another example of the same kind of major economic shift that the world survived; the fall of U.S.S.R. In both cases the world survived (or would survive) because there were other economic superpowers who could draw away the economic pressure from the superpower experiencing it. I do admit that the U.S. is the one of the most important component of the global market, but it wouldn't be the only one. Both E.U. and China and other major economic superpowers will have their own contingency plans in case one of them plunges from the global market, and at least in China's case it helped to deliver. It's only that E.U.'s higher confidence in U.S.'s apparent economic stability put them off guard when the economic shift came from an unexpected source. (it came from fraud they say  ) SK and Japan suffered a lot because U.S. dragged them along in their failures, but if U.S. did completely disappear neither of them will hesitate to be dragged on by E.U. or China instead, and either of them will be able to pay for Japan's and South Korea's exports. (potentially problem: the E.U. market. They might refuse to trade with us as major partners and choose Russia or Canada instead. I have little things to say for that matter) Besides, their automobile industry at least is flourishing (in SK's case, I don't know about Japan) in this brief relapse from U.S.'s overwhelming waves of expensive cars. We wouldn't really know the effect of another superpower's disappearance in the modern economy, but that's it, really. We don't know. Coming from a foreign country, I tend to put more confidence in the E.U. and Asian markets than Americans do in Obama, even if all I know are from hearsay. It's what made me interested China's economy in the first place. It's one potential superpower capable of absorbing the shock of U.S.'s continued decline, in case the recession continues, in my opinion. I didn't live in Europe so I wouldn't know how bad things are in Ace's place, so my ideas will be different from his. I'm not completely denying the possibility of global economy crashing, but I believe more in 'slow recovery' scenario because I don't really like thinking about bleak futures....   You should excuse my conviction when I insist that the world will survive even if U.S. dies. I'm using the relatively cushioned effect of U.S.S.R. downfall on world economy as the counterweight argument against the implication of U.S.'s own downfall.

[mgz]

If China becomes a first class economy, then they may lose the biggest advantage: cheap labour.

if and when that happens you will see india and taiwan become much larger economic powers as the shift will come to them, or shift further depending on how things go in the middle east and result in afghanistan or iraq or something being farmed by US companies for piss cheap labor and dubbed as supporting growing democracies

and on a seperate note ide like to see what darkjedi's opinion was like if he was from bosnia instead of SK. For some reason IMO it seems like he thinks way to high of his country of origin

[sdedalus83]

Taiwan?  China's got a hell of a long way to go before its cost of labor is even close to Taiwan's.

[darkjedi]

and on a seperate note ide like to see what darkjedi's opinion was like if he was from bosnia instead of SK. For some reason IMO it seems like he thinks way to high of his country of origin

That's probably it, and rightfully so. I was born when South Korea was a third-world country, when it was going through the IMF crisis in the 1997, and I've seen how much economic hardship it put on my family. It's changed, of course, and very fast; 2001 and on I've seen so many new things in my suburban district alone every year, and that's a very small part of Korea. When I saw just how much the metropolis Seoul and Incheon developed from the year before, I was flabbergasted. (When I saw the Incheon airport for the first time, fucking shit...) Suffice it to say I wanted to be confident in the economic growth of South Korea because it will be a good thing to me when I grow up. I didn't always have the chance to experience what we call 'top-notch' environment (that's what we SK oldies called the Western and Japanese environment before) even though we weren't exceptionally poor. But anyway, it backfired. Now SK is one of the most corrupt country in the world with the parliaments literally fist fighting with each other to see who gets to get the most money, and while they are practicing wrestling in a political ring prospective college students like me are left to rot in the Army or doing some other odd jobs as NEETs. Can you bear the fact that half of SK live under $4 per hour minimum wage deals when its GDP per capita is $30,000? Anyway, I learned English precisely because I didn't want to come back to Korea if I didn't need to. But actually I want to go back, because I remember SK being a dreamworld for me when it climbed the ladder from one of the most minor country in the world to the world's 10th largest economic superpower in mere 10 years. I have a lot of attachments. I'm being optimistic about SK's economy because it means much to us. Call me nationalistic if you want, but I don't think it's a shameful thing to be proud of one's country's achievements, especially when they are good. 

[AceHigh]

Call me nationalistic if you want, but I don't think it's a shameful thing to be proud of one's country's achievements, especially when they are good. 

Nationalism is not a bad thing, but labelling it as superpower even in economical aspect just makes you look ignorantly biased.