Discussion Forums > Politics
Americans Split on Health Coverage, Obama down in Polls
DrmChsr0:
--- Quote from: vicious796 on August 13, 2009, 12:54:17 PM ---Not saying Cash for Clunkers is bad, just that it's expensive. Just because someone else did it already doesn't make it the right thing to do - building up debt that is. You can't justify Obama's spending by saying "well Bush did such and such", that doesn't make it right. I've been saying this for what seems like forever but has only been a few short months. Two wrongs don't make a right, spending 2 trillion dollars doesn't give you 5 trillion - it just makes you lose 2 trillion.
On top of that, there's so much questionable material in the bill itself. I ask you, have you read it? Do you know what's in it? What do you think a "competitive" fee is? These are the same people who thought offices paying more than 150k in salaries had to be large offices - they're way off base. Everything they do is seperate from reality and they don't understand what it's like to be one of their constituents.
There are protests going on around the country in the town-hall meetings that have become so popular. Have some of them been blown out of proportion? Yes. Does that take away from the fact that people are not happy with this bill right now? No.
"Well nobody said anything in Obama's town hall!" No shit. What do you think the security was like there? How difficult do you think it was to get into the place in the first place? It wasn't a rinky dink Senator talking to their constituents, that was the President of the United States. Secret Service was all the fuck over that building, no riot is taking place.
So stop with this "Well Bush did..." or "Well the Republicans did..." bull shit because it doesn't justify the Democrats actions. We're not in middle-school, this tit-for-tat shit doesn't fly in the real world.
--- End quote ---
I wasn't actually referring about what Bush did, if I read your comment correctly. I was referring to the protesting that's going on because of Obama increasing the debt. Since they didn't protest Reaganomics, the War On Terror, and the deregulation of the global economy...
Their protesting sees to be extremely hypocritical and offensive. And this isn't about the whole evil socialism aspect (and yes, Singapore does seem to be an evil socialist nation, but it's actually a corporation.) they're pushing, since that's immediately offensive to almost everyone due to all that Hitler they managed to infuse it with.
I don't like debt myself (How to reduce your debt tip: Swap your credit cards for debit cards. Or better still, do without either.), and I think Obama may be wrong to increase the debt, but he's giving a lot of people a shot at affordable healthcare. Healthy people work longer and better and spend more money.
Dunno about the debt, though. Personally, I'm into taxing the crap outta the corporations, since they are the ones with the money, but there be problems if the taxation isn't implemented globally.
Sosseres:
--- Quote from: DrmChsr0 on August 14, 2009, 12:30:10 PM ---Dunno about the debt, though. Personally, I'm into taxing the crap outta the corporations, since they are the ones with the money, but there be problems if the taxation isn't implemented globally.
--- End quote ---
It can't be implemented globally since countries want to attract/keep companies and no single country can force all other countries. If we had a global government that might work, but we don't have anything near that.
(I also agree on the credit card part, not being able to go into debt on them is a nice way not to go into it. Though most peoples debt doesn't come from that but from cars, houses and things like that.)
bcr123:
--- Quote from: Sosseres on August 14, 2009, 12:36:24 PM ---
--- Quote from: DrmChsr0 on August 14, 2009, 12:30:10 PM ---Dunno about the debt, though. Personally, I'm into taxing the crap outta the corporations, since they are the ones with the money, but there be problems if the taxation isn't implemented globally.
--- End quote ---
It can't be implemented globally since countries want to attract/keep companies and no single country can force all other countries. If we had a global government that might work, but we don't have anything near that.
(I also agree on the credit card part, not being able to go into debt on them is a nice way not to go into it. Though most peoples debt doesn't come from that but from cars, houses and things like that.)
--- End quote ---
About 40% of consumer debt is on credit cards (1 trillion of 2.5 trillion total)
"Consumer debt in June dropped nearly 5 percent to $2.5 trillion."
"Americans still have nearly $1 trillion on their credit cards ($917 billion). "
( http://voices.washingtonpost.com/economy-watch/2009/08/consumers_continue_to_cut_debt.html?hpid=sec-business )
Sosseres:
•Homes. U.S. consumers had $6.8 trillion in mortgage debt, accounting for nearly three-quarters of their total debt at the end of 2003. http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/general/2004-03-17-debtcover_x.htm
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/SavingandDebt/P70741.asp has generally the same figures but doesn't state totals.
I honestly think I was right, even if these figures are a few years old. That they can cash in their houses is of course an option for these things in many cases. In some the debt they have is higher than the house price and it will get worse as people start losing their houses and the amount of buyers stays roughly the same. Unless investors buy them for the future and rent them out in the meantime.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article8126.html (Source for people soon to lose their homes.)
Natheria:
--- Quote from: Semnae on August 13, 2009, 07:53:59 PM ---Consider this. I'm up to my neck in personal debt. This debt was accumulated primarily through loans I needed to pay for my college education. Once I'm done with college, I will be in a better position to pay off my loans. Once I'm done paying off my debt, I will be better off than I was initially. This is called making an investment. Nations work on the same investment principle. We are spending a lot and accumulating debt now, but this spending will strengthen the economy so that we will be in a better position to repay that debt later.
Now tie this into health care. It's going to be expensive, but not only will almost everyone be covered, it's going to help the economy immensely. Covering all the previously uninsured will cause the insurance industry to boom. On top of that, there's going to be a new demand for doctors and other medical professionals to treat all these newly insured individuals. As demand increases, colleges profit as new people get educated to fill that demand. Better colleges and more educated people leads to more advances in technology, and we regain the lead in technology. These advances need manufacturers and distributors. You get the idea. Over all, the benefit to our economy far outweighs the debt we will gain.
--- End quote ---
A debt driven economy only works if you work quickly to pay off those debts. Just because debt is often necessary does not make spending more and more money that you don't have a good thing, nor does it justify it in the first place. You go to college and you spend money that you don't have on an education so you can get a better paying job with that education, else you would never aquire the funds to go to college in the first place (or take your whole life to do so). But what if you spend all that money on an education, get out in the working sector with that shiny new diploma but there are no new jobs to support the college debt that got you that education? Spending the money in the first place does not justify the spending of money you do not have. You have to use that money wisely and not stretch yourself so thin expecting that you can just take out another loan and the banks will always cover you. Why do you think the U.S. is in such a depression right now? You spend and invest money that doesn't exist, keeping that debt suspended in mid air like a juggler with too many balls. If something goes wrong in the cycle it all comes crashing down because none of it had any solid support in the first place which is why debt was always meant to be a temporary means to an end. If we were hit with another housing crisis or the entire market completely crashed, anyone with debt (doesn't matter how much, if your in the red, your in the red and you lose everything) is screwed and no amount of government bail outs (when the the federal and most state governments are at their limits financially already) is going to be there to save the day.
And i could talk all day about why public schools just plain fail. You have a massively inverse ratio of students to teachers that only want to teach the kids one thing, one way regardless of how the individual student best learns the material and that's assuming the material is accurate or being taught efficiently in the first place. Trying to teach kids like it's a mass production assembly line just doesn't work and does nothing for their critical thinking abilities. Giving the kids a whole bunch of medication to counter act poor eating habits and the teachers inability to teach doesn't help ether (you put a fuckton of processed unnatural sugar and caffeine in everything which does wonders to their attention spans not to mention their health and then you drown them with drugs that make them docile and brain dead, how does this work again?). Can you tell i don't have much confidence in public school systems and the FDA? ::)
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