English Dubs

[Aneroph]

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wich is all the more reason to avoid english dubs since they often avoid using honorifics.

  Question, though: have you tried watching an English dub that does use honorifics? Like Ai Yori Aoshi, for instance. See also Lucky Star. The problems with honorifics in dubs are:

1) they're often mispronounced -- like "-san" as in "Santa" and "-chan" as in "channel." (IIRC the AYA dub pronounces them right, but others don't.) In a way, it's better not to hear them at all than to hear wrong versions of them.

2) they can worsen the overall performance. Much has been said in this thread and elsewhere about English voice acting sounding fake or unnatural. That's debatable, but giving the actors a bunch of name suffixes that they're not used to saying in everyday conversation is not going to help anything.

3) they can detract from the entertainment value. You may find it hard to believe, but people who watch or favor dubs aren't always concerned about getting an exact perfect translation of the Japanese version. They want something enjoyable and entertaining, and that usually means something that sounds natural and believable in English. Sure there are issues that will always be there, like the mouth flaps, but throwing a bunch of honorifics in there is bound to make dialogue sound less natural in English. Especially if it's a show like Last Exile, Vandread, Solty Rei, Noir, Scrapped Princess, etc. that aren't set in Japan.

I've even heard dub fans complaining about honorifics in dubs, saying "get them out of there, I don't want them." If you were trying to sell a product, would you take simple measures to please people who generally like your products, or bend over backwards trying to please the haters who will find faults no matter what?

Another problem with dubbing is the loss of or misinterpretation of emotions. Once again, because of the cultural differences, certain emotions will be lost in the dubbing process. For example, in Great Teacher Onizuka, Onizuka is an ex-Bosozoku member. He has a very distinct tone of voice of a typical Japanese delinquent. In the dubbed version, they could not, or were too cheap to even consider that tone of voice, so after translating and making a script proper for an American audience, they took a voice actor and dubbed over the anime without the tone of voice. Without that tone of voice, the character's emotion is lost in the process.

People who pick the show up and watch it dubbed won't care about that. It's been awhile since I've seen any of GTO, but IIRC they used a tough-guy/wise-guy voice for Onizuka. Him being an ex-gang member was believable, given the tone of voice they used. Was it the exact same typical-delinquent voice as the Japanese version? No, but it still worked. Acting is interpreting a character, not imitating someone else's interpretation of it.

You've just described the fact that dubs and subs are basically two entirely different shows for two entirely separate groups of people. I tell you one thing, subbed anime on American television is always going to fail. It's too complicated, too much work for the watcher, and too cultured for people to pass by the show and enjoy it. I mean, if you don't understand any Spanish do you stop by the Telemundo channel for more than five seconds to see the girls with the giant knockers? It would also be very unwise to place subbed anime shows for children on American television (ie. Naruto, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc.).

As far as the voice actors go, people who don't like anime easily hear the unnatural sounds from the English version, but they don't care enough about the show to read subtitles. My brother was always a big anime hater and the number one thing he always complained about as I watched was how stupid the sentences were sounding (besides the fact that none of it was particularly matching with mouth movements, but you get that with both versions). He would always repeat the stupid sounding sentences and laugh (boy would he have had a blast seeing "people die when they are killed" in FSN ).

In the long run, dubs serve their purpose. Those who never torrent anime are barely even given the chance to enjoy the subbed version since they most likely watched the show in dub before buying the DVD containing the sub.

[Timdog]

About the mouth flap stuff, can't they just reanimate it so that the mouth movements fit the dub?  You can't do this with live action movies since you can't reanimate a person's mouth so dubbed live action stuff usually sucks (except for the hilarity) but animated stuff... can't they change it?

[Scudworth]

can't they "fix" someones art to make it easier for Americans to watch?
no I don't think that would be a great idea.

[zorena86]

Finally got around to watching this clip, was quite hilarious indeed!

[ett]

 Gantz Spoof FanDUB - Dubs VS Subs Nishi's Rant

[Timdog]

can't they "fix" someones art to make it easier for Americans to watch?
no I don't think that would be a great idea.

They're just modifying the mouth movements... it's not a big deal...

[Borror0]

Since US and UK both have a fairly productive entertainment industry, the quality of voice actors has never been impressive in English. When you change to French, Spanish or any language with a smaller but still decent entertainment industry, the quality of dubs generally improves. I always watch a show with original audio and subtitles if I don't speak the language but if I watch a show with someone who does not feel like reading subtitles, French and Spanish dubs are less painful to hear than English dubs.

It makes sense, in a way, since there is so little shows that are really dubbed for the mainstream.

Yeah, sure, Pokémon was mainstream but since it addresses to kids they don't need as much of a quality product as they would for adults. Can anyone recall five mainstream (in the US) shows that were shot in another language and dubbed?

I know I can't.

[aznZephyr]

This was true, about 4 years ago. Most dub haters live in the past, and not in the here and now. These days a lot of cultural references still stay intact, or are explained afterwards via some sort of booklet for jokes or puns that don't make any sense in English. The days of "Americanisation" have been over for a very long time. I would know, because I like to buy a lot of anime. Slice of Life being one of my favourite genres, the differences in cultural references can be seen to be changing over time, gradually, as the Asian culture penetrates the stars and stripes more and more.

I've seen some recent anime in both dubbed and subbed versions, and although I can agree they have improved tremendously (compared to the dubbing job they did with Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind), I still would not watch anime dubbed in English. Like Borror0 said, because anime really isn't mainstream, the quality of the voice acting isn't really impressive. For example, there was a clip I saw of Kidou Senshi Gundam Seed had a scene with Athrun and Kira facing off at one point in a tense scene and Kira says "Athrun," in a sort of low, 'we're rivals' sort of way. The English dubbed version wasn't that bad in imitating the voice, it just didn't pack as much of a punch as it should have. This is only one example of the many clip's I've seen in dubbed anime that is decent in keeping with the mood, but horrible (I MEAN HORRIBLE) in emphasizing that mood, making a very bland job done.
The American producers slowly figured out who they're targeting and fixed their translations of the script, but they're still lacking good voice actors because American Producers are so greedy.

[Zalis116]

why worry about stuff thats painful, "Don't say Lazy" and read teh damn subs dubs are a pain in the brain, l honestly haven't heard any good dubs since Gits.

I "worry" about it because I don't think the issue can be simplified down to "people are lazy." Believe it or not, some people are perfectly able to read subs, but they don't like Japanese voice acting, or simply like English dubs better.

They're just modifying the mouth movements... it's not a big deal...

But you know people would be screaming about "editing" and "butchering." And for once they might have good reason to do so -- in nearly all cases, the Japanese version will also be on that DVD/Blu-Ray. If they change the lip flaps to suit the dub, where does that leave the Japanese track's lip synch?

but they're still lacking good voice actors because American Producers are so greedy.

Well, if "greedy" means "running a business and wanting to make a profit," I suppose so. But I've had the good fortune of meeting some people in the R1 industry, and none of them struck me as the evil/maniacal kind of greedy. Anime dubbing is a specialized skill; paying big money for big-name Hollywood actors doesn't guarantee an improvement worth the investment.

[Borror0]

Anime dubbing is a specialized skill; paying big money for big-name Hollywood actors doesn't guarantee an improvement worth the investment.

Except that his not what he said.

He was talking about better voice actors. Hollywood actors are actors; not voice actors. There is a significant different. As I said in my post, a big problem is that America has never developed solid voice actors because there is not much money to make there. On the contrary, Québec, France, Spain and many other non-English countries have developed good voice actors because it is more common to important and dub movies and TV shows in other languages.

[Aneroph]

Anime dubbing is a specialized skill; paying big money for big-name Hollywood actors doesn't guarantee an improvement worth the investment.

Except that his not what he said.

He was talking about better voice actors. Hollywood actors are actors; not voice actors. There is a significant different. As I said in my post, a big problem is that America has never developed solid voice actors because there is not much money to make there. On the contrary, Québec, France, Spain and many other non-English countries have developed good voice actors because it is more common to important and dub movies and TV shows in other languages.

Actually, in America voice actors ARE actors and actors are voice actors. They have to go through the same schooling. It's the same thing really, acting with motions of the face on screen doesn't mean you don't have emotion in your voice. Just take your eyes off the television for a little while and listen to the voices. A lot of big named actors are voicing characters in big CG movies now.

[Onibokusu]

(click to show/hide)

wich is all the more reason to avoid english dubs since they often avoid using honorifics.

  Question, though: have you tried watching an English dub that does use honorifics? Like Ai Yori Aoshi, for instance. See also Lucky Star. The problems with honorifics in dubs are:

1) they're often mispronounced -- like "-san" as in "Santa" and "-chan" as in "channel." (IIRC the AYA dub pronounces them right, but others don't.) In a way, it's better not to hear them at all than to hear wrong versions of them.

2) they can worsen the overall performance. Much has been said in this thread and elsewhere about English voice acting sounding fake or unnatural. That's debatable, but giving the actors a bunch of name suffixes that they're not used to saying in everyday conversation is not going to help anything.

3) they can detract from the entertainment value. You may find it hard to believe, but people who watch or favor dubs aren't always concerned about getting an exact perfect translation of the Japanese version. They want something enjoyable and entertaining, and that usually means something that sounds natural and believable in English. Sure there are issues that will always be there, like the mouth flaps, but throwing a bunch of honorifics in there is bound to make dialogue sound less natural in English. Especially if it's a show like Last Exile, Vandread, Solty Rei, Noir, Scrapped Princess, etc. that aren't set in Japan.

I've even heard dub fans complaining about honorifics in dubs, saying "get them out of there, I don't want them." If you were trying to sell a product, would you take simple measures to please people who generally like your products, or bend over backwards trying to please the haters who will find faults no matter what?

Another problem with dubbing is the loss of or misinterpretation of emotions. Once again, because of the cultural differences, certain emotions will be lost in the dubbing process. For example, in Great Teacher Onizuka, Onizuka is an ex-Bosozoku member. He has a very distinct tone of voice of a typical Japanese delinquent. In the dubbed version, they could not, or were too cheap to even consider that tone of voice, so after translating and making a script proper for an American audience, they took a voice actor and dubbed over the anime without the tone of voice. Without that tone of voice, the character's emotion is lost in the process.

People who pick the show up and watch it dubbed won't care about that. It's been awhile since I've seen any of GTO, but IIRC they used a tough-guy/wise-guy voice for Onizuka. Him being an ex-gang member was believable, given the tone of voice they used. Was it the exact same typical-delinquent voice as the Japanese version? No, but it still worked. Acting is interpreting a character, not imitating someone else's interpretation of it.

You've just described the fact that dubs and subs are basically two entirely different shows for two entirely separate groups of people. I tell you one thing, subbed anime on American television is always going to fail. It's too complicated, too much work for the watcher, and too cultured for people to pass by the show and enjoy it. I mean, if you don't understand any Spanish do you stop by the Telemundo channel for more than five seconds to see the girls with the giant knockers? It would also be very unwise to place subbed anime shows for children on American television (ie. Naruto, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc.).

As far as the voice actors go, people who don't like anime easily hear the unnatural sounds from the English version, but they don't care enough about the show to read subtitles. My brother was always a big anime hater and the number one thing he always complained about as I watched was how stupid the sentences were sounding (besides the fact that none of it was particularly matching with mouth movements, but you get that with both versions). He would always repeat the stupid sounding sentences and laugh (boy would he have had a blast seeing "people die when they are killed" in FSN ).

In the long run, dubs serve their purpose. Those who never torrent anime are barely even given the chance to enjoy the subbed version since they most likely watched the show in dub before buying the DVD containing the sub.

I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?

No, you can't. You know why? Because you don't speak Japanese. If you did, you wouldn't need subtitles.

You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.

The "subbed version" is actually just the Japanese dub with English text beneath it. You know what? YOU AREN'T INTERPRETING THE JAPANESE DUB IN THE SLIGHTEST.

The English you read is interpreted in your own voice, coming from inside your head. It glosses over the Japanese dub sub-consciously.

Oh yeah, stupid sounding sentences? Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.

[kurandoinu]

(click to show/hide)

wich is all the more reason to avoid english dubs since they often avoid using honorifics.

  Question, though: have you tried watching an English dub that does use honorifics? Like Ai Yori Aoshi, for instance. See also Lucky Star. The problems with honorifics in dubs are:

1) they're often mispronounced -- like "-san" as in "Santa" and "-chan" as in "channel." (IIRC the AYA dub pronounces them right, but others don't.) In a way, it's better not to hear them at all than to hear wrong versions of them.

2) they can worsen the overall performance. Much has been said in this thread and elsewhere about English voice acting sounding fake or unnatural. That's debatable, but giving the actors a bunch of name suffixes that they're not used to saying in everyday conversation is not going to help anything.

3) they can detract from the entertainment value. You may find it hard to believe, but people who watch or favor dubs aren't always concerned about getting an exact perfect translation of the Japanese version. They want something enjoyable and entertaining, and that usually means something that sounds natural and believable in English. Sure there are issues that will always be there, like the mouth flaps, but throwing a bunch of honorifics in there is bound to make dialogue sound less natural in English. Especially if it's a show like Last Exile, Vandread, Solty Rei, Noir, Scrapped Princess, etc. that aren't set in Japan.

I've even heard dub fans complaining about honorifics in dubs, saying "get them out of there, I don't want them." If you were trying to sell a product, would you take simple measures to please people who generally like your products, or bend over backwards trying to please the haters who will find faults no matter what?

Another problem with dubbing is the loss of or misinterpretation of emotions. Once again, because of the cultural differences, certain emotions will be lost in the dubbing process. For example, in Great Teacher Onizuka, Onizuka is an ex-Bosozoku member. He has a very distinct tone of voice of a typical Japanese delinquent. In the dubbed version, they could not, or were too cheap to even consider that tone of voice, so after translating and making a script proper for an American audience, they took a voice actor and dubbed over the anime without the tone of voice. Without that tone of voice, the character's emotion is lost in the process.

People who pick the show up and watch it dubbed won't care about that. It's been awhile since I've seen any of GTO, but IIRC they used a tough-guy/wise-guy voice for Onizuka. Him being an ex-gang member was believable, given the tone of voice they used. Was it the exact same typical-delinquent voice as the Japanese version? No, but it still worked. Acting is interpreting a character, not imitating someone else's interpretation of it.

You've just described the fact that dubs and subs are basically two entirely different shows for two entirely separate groups of people. I tell you one thing, subbed anime on American television is always going to fail. It's too complicated, too much work for the watcher, and too cultured for people to pass by the show and enjoy it. I mean, if you don't understand any Spanish do you stop by the Telemundo channel for more than five seconds to see the girls with the giant knockers? It would also be very unwise to place subbed anime shows for children on American television (ie. Naruto, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc.).

As far as the voice actors go, people who don't like anime easily hear the unnatural sounds from the English version, but they don't care enough about the show to read subtitles. My brother was always a big anime hater and the number one thing he always complained about as I watched was how stupid the sentences were sounding (besides the fact that none of it was particularly matching with mouth movements, but you get that with both versions). He would always repeat the stupid sounding sentences and laugh (boy would he have had a blast seeing "people die when they are killed" in FSN ).

In the long run, dubs serve their purpose. Those who never torrent anime are barely even given the chance to enjoy the subbed version since they most likely watched the show in dub before buying the DVD containing the sub.

I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?

No, you can't. You know why? Because you don't speak Japanese. If you did, you wouldn't need subtitles.

You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.

The "subbed version" is actually just the Japanese dub with English text beneath it. You know what? YOU AREN'T INTERPRETING THE JAPANESE DUB IN THE SLIGHTEST.

The English you read is interpreted in your own voice, coming from inside your head. It glosses over the Japanese dub sub-consciously.

Oh yeah, stupid sounding sentences? Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.

Got to say I agree completely with that. Same with stupid accents, you can hear them in English dubs because its the language that you speak and you're used to accents, I couldn't pick out people with accents in Japanese though, because I'm unfamiliar with the different dialects. I always feel I miss something because of that, as its not always something that can be translated easily.

[Borror0]

I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?

No, you can't.

I am jealous of your ability to read other's mind from such a distance.

You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan.

Damn right!! You tell 'em! How dare those fanbois criticize good dubs?!

[aznZephyr]

Veering off topic slightly...

but they're still lacking good voice actors because American Producers are so greedy.

Well, if "greedy" means "running a business and wanting to make a profit," I suppose so. But I've had the good fortune of meeting some people in the R1 industry, and none of them struck me as the evil/maniacal kind of greedy...

I guess I should have rephrased that, I don't mean to generally portray the businessmen/women in the entertainment industry as evil.
It's more like because American entertainment is, in reality, run by a handful of huge corporations, a majority of mainstream media is built on money and the ones controlling it, rather than the artist's creativity and ability to find something new.

As for the topic currently at hand...

You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.

woot BS hatin'
I don't claim to know Japanese, but I hope I'm not portrayed as what you call "Japanese Elitists." That would be...depressing.

Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.

You could also say Americans do not speak like the English dub of any Cartoon.
I really have no choice but to agree with what you're saying. Japanese Elitists, Nipponophiles, weeaboos and others of the sort are quite annoying to listen to when they try to make subs look like its a better alternative to dubs. In the end, it really depends on how much Japanese you know (culture, language, and all), and how good a job the subbers did. If you read the subs of a DVD rip, you might as well watch the dubbed version because it was most likely translated once and put into two forms.

As for me, maybe I haven't given dubbed anime a chance, but I don't think I will since I watch most everything in their original language, like classic Jackie Chan(Cantonese), I Not Stupid(Singapore), El laberinto del fauno(Spanish), and My Sassy Girl (Korean).

on ANOTHER side note...
As for the users that have been trying to interpret what I've been posting:
Don't put words in my mouth. Claiming you know what I was trying to say is quite offensive.

I wish I could respond faster to the ones questioning what I have to say, but I'm currently working on a Ship right outside of Sasebo, Japan. Even sites mainly consisting of text is hard to load on the ship so I have to come ashore and use the Internet at the USO facility.

Assuming in any situation is bad, please refrain from making yourself look like an ASS.

[Sosseres]

I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?

If you don't start listening how will you learn?

As I started out on anime I picked the Japanese dubs since it was the original language, being from Sweden that is the natural responce.

I then kept watching, watched LA in the language and gradually learnt to hear when that unnaturalness was present (a bit). That won't happen if you directly think you should watch a language you already know.

Dialects can also be picked up on after a while. I don't hear the minor dialects that I would in Swedish or English, but the major ones I can hear.

As for the topic on hand, I don't watch anything outside of its original language if I can find a sub for it. So I can't comment on it, the amount of English dubbed anime episodes I've watched is easily under 30 (counting in TV and everything else).

[Havoc10K]

l have a dual audio version of Higurashi, honestly, l really tried hard to watch one ep in english dub, l really tried hard ... not to throw up.

the reason why many ppl hate english dubs is because no matter how well it's made, original voice actor (japanese) is wholly giving oneself to the characters they are voicing for, wich results in usually very deep character outline, with dubs you only see a plain work of someone trying to mimic the voice not the feeling of the character, it really hard to find such anime that dubbed with heart, name at least 1 anime that had that heart of the character, cuz l only see Gits anime (all) that were done properly to some extent, only because of the characters being rather easy to mimic emotions. The Japanese versions of the Gits franchiese is a lot better still, however the dub was done very nicely, and that anime is the only one l can aprove of a dubbed watchable anime.

[Scudworth]

Cowboy bebop had good dubs. I watched that with dubs cause at the time I didn't know I had duel audio files of it.
but other than that I agree with the above.
 

[JoaoAl]

one piece has nicely dubbed

[kurandoinu]

one piece has nicely dubbed

You think? One Piece was also hacked to pieces for that dub. Lolly anyone?