Discussion Forums > Anime Discussions
English Dubs
Aneroph:
--- Quote from: Borror0 on August 07, 2009, 06:43:37 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zalis116 on August 07, 2009, 06:38:55 PM ---Anime dubbing is a specialized skill; paying big money for big-name Hollywood actors doesn't guarantee an improvement worth the investment.
--- End quote ---
Except that his not what he said.
He was talking about better voice actors. Hollywood actors are actors; not voice actors. There is a significant different. As I said in my post, a big problem is that America has never developed solid voice actors because there is not much money to make there. On the contrary, Québec, France, Spain and many other non-English countries have developed good voice actors because it is more common to important and dub movies and TV shows in other languages.
--- End quote ---
Actually, in America voice actors ARE actors and actors are voice actors. They have to go through the same schooling. It's the same thing really, acting with motions of the face on screen doesn't mean you don't have emotion in your voice. Just take your eyes off the television for a little while and listen to the voices. A lot of big named actors are voicing characters in big CG movies now.
Onibokusu:
--- Quote from: Aneroph on August 04, 2009, 12:03:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zalis116 on August 04, 2009, 09:22:27 AM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: Havoc10K on August 03, 2009, 01:59:11 PM ---wich is all the more reason to avoid english dubs since they often avoid using honorifics.
--- End quote ---
Question, though: have you tried watching an English dub that does use honorifics? Like Ai Yori Aoshi, for instance. See also Lucky Star. The problems with honorifics in dubs are:
1) they're often mispronounced -- like "-san" as in "Santa" and "-chan" as in "channel." (IIRC the AYA dub pronounces them right, but others don't.) In a way, it's better not to hear them at all than to hear wrong versions of them.
2) they can worsen the overall performance. Much has been said in this thread and elsewhere about English voice acting sounding fake or unnatural. That's debatable, but giving the actors a bunch of name suffixes that they're not used to saying in everyday conversation is not going to help anything.
3) they can detract from the entertainment value. You may find it hard to believe, but people who watch or favor dubs aren't always concerned about getting an exact perfect translation of the Japanese version. They want something enjoyable and entertaining, and that usually means something that sounds natural and believable in English. Sure there are issues that will always be there, like the mouth flaps, but throwing a bunch of honorifics in there is bound to make dialogue sound less natural in English. Especially if it's a show like Last Exile, Vandread, Solty Rei, Noir, Scrapped Princess, etc. that aren't set in Japan.
I've even heard dub fans complaining about honorifics in dubs, saying "get them out of there, I don't want them." If you were trying to sell a product, would you take simple measures to please people who generally like your products, or bend over backwards trying to please the haters who will find faults no matter what?
--- Quote from: aznZephyr ---Another problem with dubbing is the loss of or misinterpretation of emotions. Once again, because of the cultural differences, certain emotions will be lost in the dubbing process. For example, in Great Teacher Onizuka, Onizuka is an ex-Bosozoku member. He has a very distinct tone of voice of a typical Japanese delinquent. In the dubbed version, they could not, or were too cheap to even consider that tone of voice, so after translating and making a script proper for an American audience, they took a voice actor and dubbed over the anime without the tone of voice. Without that tone of voice, the character's emotion is lost in the process.
--- End quote ---
People who pick the show up and watch it dubbed won't care about that. It's been awhile since I've seen any of GTO, but IIRC they used a tough-guy/wise-guy voice for Onizuka. Him being an ex-gang member was believable, given the tone of voice they used. Was it the exact same typical-delinquent voice as the Japanese version? No, but it still worked. Acting is interpreting a character, not imitating someone else's interpretation of it.
--- End quote ---
You've just described the fact that dubs and subs are basically two entirely different shows for two entirely separate groups of people. I tell you one thing, subbed anime on American television is always going to fail. It's too complicated, too much work for the watcher, and too cultured for people to pass by the show and enjoy it. I mean, if you don't understand any Spanish do you stop by the Telemundo channel for more than five seconds to see the girls with the giant knockers? It would also be very unwise to place subbed anime shows for children on American television (ie. Naruto, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc.).
As far as the voice actors go, people who don't like anime easily hear the unnatural sounds from the English version, but they don't care enough about the show to read subtitles. My brother was always a big anime hater and the number one thing he always complained about as I watched was how stupid the sentences were sounding (besides the fact that none of it was particularly matching with mouth movements, but you get that with both versions). He would always repeat the stupid sounding sentences and laugh (boy would he have had a blast seeing "people die when they are killed" in FSN :P).
In the long run, dubs serve their purpose. Those who never torrent anime are barely even given the chance to enjoy the subbed version since they most likely watched the show in dub before buying the DVD containing the sub.
--- End quote ---
I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?
No, you can't. You know why? Because you don't speak Japanese. If you did, you wouldn't need subtitles.
You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.
The "subbed version" is actually just the Japanese dub with English text beneath it. You know what? YOU AREN'T INTERPRETING THE JAPANESE DUB IN THE SLIGHTEST.
The English you read is interpreted in your own voice, coming from inside your head. It glosses over the Japanese dub sub-consciously.
Oh yeah, stupid sounding sentences? Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.
kurandoinu:
--- Quote from: Onibokusu on August 08, 2009, 10:20:53 AM ---
--- Quote from: Aneroph on August 04, 2009, 12:03:36 PM ---
--- Quote from: Zalis116 on August 04, 2009, 09:22:27 AM --- (click to show/hide)
--- Quote from: Havoc10K on August 03, 2009, 01:59:11 PM ---wich is all the more reason to avoid english dubs since they often avoid using honorifics.
--- End quote ---
Question, though: have you tried watching an English dub that does use honorifics? Like Ai Yori Aoshi, for instance. See also Lucky Star. The problems with honorifics in dubs are:
1) they're often mispronounced -- like "-san" as in "Santa" and "-chan" as in "channel." (IIRC the AYA dub pronounces them right, but others don't.) In a way, it's better not to hear them at all than to hear wrong versions of them.
2) they can worsen the overall performance. Much has been said in this thread and elsewhere about English voice acting sounding fake or unnatural. That's debatable, but giving the actors a bunch of name suffixes that they're not used to saying in everyday conversation is not going to help anything.
3) they can detract from the entertainment value. You may find it hard to believe, but people who watch or favor dubs aren't always concerned about getting an exact perfect translation of the Japanese version. They want something enjoyable and entertaining, and that usually means something that sounds natural and believable in English. Sure there are issues that will always be there, like the mouth flaps, but throwing a bunch of honorifics in there is bound to make dialogue sound less natural in English. Especially if it's a show like Last Exile, Vandread, Solty Rei, Noir, Scrapped Princess, etc. that aren't set in Japan.
I've even heard dub fans complaining about honorifics in dubs, saying "get them out of there, I don't want them." If you were trying to sell a product, would you take simple measures to please people who generally like your products, or bend over backwards trying to please the haters who will find faults no matter what?
--- Quote from: aznZephyr ---Another problem with dubbing is the loss of or misinterpretation of emotions. Once again, because of the cultural differences, certain emotions will be lost in the dubbing process. For example, in Great Teacher Onizuka, Onizuka is an ex-Bosozoku member. He has a very distinct tone of voice of a typical Japanese delinquent. In the dubbed version, they could not, or were too cheap to even consider that tone of voice, so after translating and making a script proper for an American audience, they took a voice actor and dubbed over the anime without the tone of voice. Without that tone of voice, the character's emotion is lost in the process.
--- End quote ---
People who pick the show up and watch it dubbed won't care about that. It's been awhile since I've seen any of GTO, but IIRC they used a tough-guy/wise-guy voice for Onizuka. Him being an ex-gang member was believable, given the tone of voice they used. Was it the exact same typical-delinquent voice as the Japanese version? No, but it still worked. Acting is interpreting a character, not imitating someone else's interpretation of it.
--- End quote ---
You've just described the fact that dubs and subs are basically two entirely different shows for two entirely separate groups of people. I tell you one thing, subbed anime on American television is always going to fail. It's too complicated, too much work for the watcher, and too cultured for people to pass by the show and enjoy it. I mean, if you don't understand any Spanish do you stop by the Telemundo channel for more than five seconds to see the girls with the giant knockers? It would also be very unwise to place subbed anime shows for children on American television (ie. Naruto, Pokemon, Beyblade, etc.).
As far as the voice actors go, people who don't like anime easily hear the unnatural sounds from the English version, but they don't care enough about the show to read subtitles. My brother was always a big anime hater and the number one thing he always complained about as I watched was how stupid the sentences were sounding (besides the fact that none of it was particularly matching with mouth movements, but you get that with both versions). He would always repeat the stupid sounding sentences and laugh (boy would he have had a blast seeing "people die when they are killed" in FSN :P).
In the long run, dubs serve their purpose. Those who never torrent anime are barely even given the chance to enjoy the subbed version since they most likely watched the show in dub before buying the DVD containing the sub.
--- End quote ---
I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?
No, you can't. You know why? Because you don't speak Japanese. If you did, you wouldn't need subtitles.
You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.
The "subbed version" is actually just the Japanese dub with English text beneath it. You know what? YOU AREN'T INTERPRETING THE JAPANESE DUB IN THE SLIGHTEST.
The English you read is interpreted in your own voice, coming from inside your head. It glosses over the Japanese dub sub-consciously.
Oh yeah, stupid sounding sentences? Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.
--- End quote ---
Got to say I agree completely with that. Same with stupid accents, you can hear them in English dubs because its the language that you speak and you're used to accents, I couldn't pick out people with accents in Japanese though, because I'm unfamiliar with the different dialects. I always feel I miss something because of that, as its not always something that can be translated easily.
Borror0:
--- Quote from: Onibokusu on August 08, 2009, 10:20:53 AM ---I have a question for you, can you hear the unnaturalness from the Japanese dub?
No, you can't.
--- End quote ---
I am jealous of your ability to read other's mind from such a distance.
--- Quote from: Onibokusu on August 08, 2009, 10:20:53 AM ---You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan.
--- End quote ---
Damn right!! You tell 'em! How dare those fanbois criticize good dubs?!
aznZephyr:
Veering off topic slightly...
--- Quote from: Zalis116 on August 07, 2009, 06:38:55 PM ---
--- Quote from: aznZephyr ---but they're still lacking good voice actors because American Producers are so greedy.
--- End quote ---
Well, if "greedy" means "running a business and wanting to make a profit," I suppose so. But I've had the good fortune of meeting some people in the R1 industry, and none of them struck me as the evil/maniacal kind of greedy...
--- End quote ---
I guess I should have rephrased that, I don't mean to generally portray the businessmen/women in the entertainment industry as evil.
It's more like because American entertainment is, in reality, run by a handful of huge corporations, a majority of mainstream media is built on money and the ones controlling it, rather than the artist's creativity and ability to find something new.
As for the topic currently at hand...
--- Quote from: Onibokusu on August 08, 2009, 10:20:53 AM ---You, and a lot of others, are the worst kind of anime fan. Japanese elitists who can't speak the language, so they can't back up what they say.
--- End quote ---
woot BS hatin'
I don't claim to know Japanese, but I hope I'm not portrayed as what you call "Japanese Elitists." That would be...depressing.
--- Quote from: Onibokusu on August 08, 2009, 10:20:53 AM ---Any person who speaks Japanese can tell you the same thing about the Japanese dub of any anime. The Japanese don't speak like that.
--- End quote ---
You could also say Americans do not speak like the English dub of any Cartoon.
I really have no choice but to agree with what you're saying. Japanese Elitists, Nipponophiles, weeaboos and others of the sort are quite annoying to listen to when they try to make subs look like its a better alternative to dubs. In the end, it really depends on how much Japanese you know (culture, language, and all), and how good a job the subbers did. If you read the subs of a DVD rip, you might as well watch the dubbed version because it was most likely translated once and put into two forms.
As for me, maybe I haven't given dubbed anime a chance, but I don't think I will since I watch most everything in their original language, like classic Jackie Chan(Cantonese), I Not Stupid(Singapore), El laberinto del fauno(Spanish), and My Sassy Girl (Korean).
on ANOTHER side note...
As for the users that have been trying to interpret what I've been posting:
Don't put words in my mouth. Claiming you know what I was trying to say is quite offensive.
I wish I could respond faster to the ones questioning what I have to say, but I'm currently working on a Ship right outside of Sasebo, Japan. Even sites mainly consisting of text is hard to load on the ship so I have to come ashore and use the Internet at the USO facility.
Assuming in any situation is bad, please refrain from making yourself look like an ASS.
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