The best suicide technology in the world (nuclear technology?)

[IceRiccy]

It is not a crude method. It is simply how geothermal power is created, phrased in a way many can understand. As the process is just that.

Nuclear fusion is only possible once we learn how to harvest even a good bit of usable energy out of a hydrogen isotope wich up to today is not possible yet. just very small amounts are possible at this point and man made nuclear fusion still has Radioactive waste as a result.

Geothermal energy does not have these side effects.

Also, in no way is nuclear energy needed to even reach the desired effects that Geothermal energy can deliver, not even the means to make it so that these geothermal energies are achieved.

[darkjedi]

Nuclear fusion is only possible once we learn how to harvest even a good bit of usable energy out of a hydrogen isotope wich up to today is not possible yet.

That is why we need to keep promoting nuclear science, not bashing it. We need to keep learning and become better.

Geothermal energy does not have these side effects.

Actually, it does have side effects. What most governments don't want you to know is that once the population gets bigger, they'll have to use more refigerants like isobutane to improve the efficiency of geothermal power plants to provide more power, which are, again, pollutants and carcinogens. Geothermal power isn't as 'clean' as you think; it's clean right now because it's underdeveloped and inefficient, and because most people don't even know what isobutane is and how to use it. Because it doesn't get used often it seems safe.

Also, in no way is nuclear energy needed to even reach the desired effects that Geothermal energy can deliver, not even the means to make it so that these geothermal energies are achieved.

This is where you are completely wrong, but I don't think trying to reiterate myself again will do anything good... this is not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of fact. If we don't sufficiently develop nuclear technology soon you'll have seen humanity effectively dying through a Malthusian crisis by the end of this century, and geothermal powers will definitely NOT save you. And this is a fact.

[darkjedi]

Ok, I reread BuriaL's posts and saw this:

You know the big ball of light that circle earth every day? Its magnetic and attracts water.

Seriously, WTF.

(Got back from google making sure that water don't get attracted by magnets)

And now I'm left to wander and wonder just when on Earth we had a ball of light orbiting Earth each day. ._.  

[bloody000]

Educate me, hippie expert.

Ace and mgz can put up and argument. You cant even that. Ill write something anyways.

You might wanna elaborate on how the solar energy is fail. How Geo-thermal cant be used unless you live near a volcano and other verry observant statements you just made.
And why cant we use allready developed land for solar panels?

And how can regaining waste energy be costly? Sure inital costs for parts, and over time that pays for itself.

It seems you dont know what "tide" is ether. You know the big ball of light that circle earth every day? Its magnetic and attracts water. So the water moves around and makes a strong current, perfect for making power. Ironicly you said theyre sea is shallow, but thats exactly the reason it works.

covering cities with solar panels: how are you going mount them? don't point to that stupid article, the author apparently lives in a world that has no gravity, wind and their panels don't need maintenance.

Of course you can "use" geo-thermal power in the same sense that Californians are using our hydropower. Did you notice that geothermal plants are built on unstable regions?

It's a stupid idea to recycle the waste heat from my 1kW air-con. It's not stupid to recycle the waste heat of a large industrial plant. Read what I wrote again.

Did you notice that most tidal generators are built near outlets? because the shape of the outlet "compress" the tide and make it much easier to harness. The Netherlands is flat, their sea is shallow, the tidal power is too spread out.

Oh and it's gravity, not magnetism, expert.

[bloody000]

on the first off-topic topic: It's Iran, they will mange to blow up even the most reliable reactor somehow.

[psyren]

/facepalm

[darkjedi]

It's Iran, they will mange to blow up even the most reliable reactor somehow.

That's naive.

All the test runs and operation rehearsals involving more than 6000 centrifuges in their enrichment facilities have indicated no difficulties whatsoever on the Iranian's part to operate them. They can handle their nuclear fuels precisely and efficiently. They are not going to spill them over slipping on some banana peel. The Iranian reactors are being built using the finest Russian nuclear engineering technology, and they are as reliable as any modern Russian or Chinese reactors. Don't go 'look at Chernobyl, lol, it's Russia!', it will just make you look stupid. Iranians of 2009 are not Russians of 1986.

As for the 'negligence' issue, neither Russia nor Iran can afford to botch the Iranian nuclear program, because it has a very significant impact on the economic strategy of both countries. Counting out the insurance policy of the multi-billion contract between Russia and Iran, wherein if a Iranian nuclear reactor fails due to technical reasons, the Russians will be required to build another nuclear reactor at their own expense as a compensation, they also have the oil industry of Iran at stake. It's a rather simple explanation that even myself isn't fond of discussing, (because it's so dull) so I'm just gonna leave it there. Suffice it to say, Iran's nuclear program is so important that they cannot be anything but seriously careful about it. And yes, Iranians do care about its citizens, thank you. I hope that cleared some things up.

[bloody000]

The whole world is looking at Iran right now, of course everything's fine and dandy.
We'll see how much care they put into it after the attention died down. You already know my view on that so I'll save it.

[darkjedi]

The West just doesn't want a Muslim nation like Iran to become as awesome as the West is through nuclear power. Just look at all the 'Iran wants to make bombs!' rhetoric that people like H. Clinton are yapping about despite all the evidence to the contrary, produced by the IAEA itself. She doesn't even know the very reason why she has Air Force Two to herself is because countries like Iran are selling oils to them. It's all stupid politics.

Iran on the other hand uses their nuclear program for economic uses. Even if it is not anymore politically significant, they'll still go ahead with their program and carefully manage it, because it has a tangible benefit to them. To the West, the benefit is mostly psychological. They just don't want Iran achieving nuclear power status because it's a Muslim nation who has a rational reason to despise the West. Iran just don't like the way the West exploited the monarchy of Iran during the Cold War to gain more control over Iran's oil. U.S.'s interference in state of affairs in Iraq is one good example. Iran has every good reason to hate the West, while the West has none.

[BuriaL]

Ok, I reread BuriaL's posts and saw this:

You know the big ball of light that circle earth every day? Its magnetic and attracts water.

Seriously, WTF.

(Got back from google making sure that water don't get attracted by magnets)

And now I'm left to wander and wonder just when on Earth we had a ball of light orbiting Earth each day. ._. 

Well we call balls of light sun and moon. Is sarcasm unfamiliar?
Read the last part of this post.

covering cities with solar panels: how are you going mount them? don't point to that stupid article, the author apparently lives in a world that has no gravity, wind and their panels don't need maintenance.

Of course you can "use" geo-thermal power in the same sense that Californians are using our hydropower. Did you notice that geothermal plants are built on unstable regions?

It's a stupid idea to recycle the waste heat from my 1kW air-con. It's not stupid to recycle the waste heat of a large industrial plant. Read what I wrote again.

Did you notice that most tidal generators are built near outlets? because the shape of the outlet "compress" the tide and make it much easier to harness. The Netherlands is flat, their sea is shallow, the tidal power is too spread out.

Oh and it's gravity, not magnetism, expert.

You mean the parking lot thing? Trees like that allready exist, not to mention that they use the same technique as some of those solar plant panels.
How to mount panels on stuff? In a frame, fastened to the wood/steel/concrete. Where to put them? you can put them below a window on a building. It would be easy to maintain.
You could put them on the roof, if the roof have the right angle and accessability. Most roofs have pretty easy access, since they need to be checked once in a while, and in europe we need to remove snow and clean the pipes.

The regions used for making geo-themal plants are pretty large, maybe you should check out a map of earth.

Think i mentioned that the "heat to electricity" tech isnt advanced enough for certain things, ace were talking about 40 years from now..
I did read what you wrote again.

Recycling waste energy is nothing new. You just have to make up the cost of doing it.

You make it seem like and bad idea, like an extra expense.

According to IceRiccy i were wrong about the nederlands, theyre allready using tidal power. I guess it still dont work in youre mind.

Tides are the rising of Earth's ocean surface caused by the tidal forces of the Moon and the Sun acting on the oceans.

And yes it does have to do with gravity. But gravity is magnetism, a planets magnetic field.

[darkjedi]

Well we call balls of light sun and moon. Is sarcasm unfamiliar?
Read the last part of this post.

The last I knew, the Sun never orbited Earth and the Moon orbits us only once each month...

How to mount panels on stuff? In a frame, fastened to the wood/steel/concrete. Where to put them? you can put them below a window on a building. It would be easy to maintain.

Waah, ok... I want to see you prove it. If it was as easy as that, why wasn't it done yet?

You could put them on the roof, if the roof have the right angle and accessability. Most roofs have pretty easy access, since they need to be checked once in a while, and in europe we need to remove snow and clean the pipes.

You don't know how much civilian infrastructure overhauling this will require. Are you seriously considering putting delicate solar panels atop roofs of every each residence? That's not even considering how many generators and transformers you'll have to redistribute to residential areas to produce and transport usable electricity to anywhere it's needed, since energy production will then have been decentralized.

The regions used for making geo-themal plants are pretty large, maybe you should check out a map of earth.

No, they aren't. An 'efficient' and ecologically safe geothermal reactor can only be placed around plate boundaries where molten rock reservoir are sufficiently pushed upward near to the Earth's surface. Otherwise you have to drill downward, which in itself requires megawatts of power each day for many years, and you also have to use a lot of refrigerant to drop water's boiling point to increase the geothermal steam's pressure. Otherwise the steam will condense before it can reach the turbine if the distance between the surface and the heatsource is too great.

And yes it does have to do with gravity. But gravity is magnetism, a planets magnetic field.

Gravity is not magnetism.

[BuriaL]

Gravity is not magnetism.

Hmm..youre right actualy didnt know there were a difference. Strangely enough..

[AceHigh]

Yeah, who could have thought that gravitation is a phenomenon where objects with mass attract each other.  
You sure as hell wouldn't be stupid enough to apply the general theory of relativity here, would you?  


On more important note: It takes more energy to produce a solar panel, then what energy it will produce in it's life time.

[BuriaL]

Yeah, who could have thought that gravitation is a phenomenon where objects with mass attract each other.  
You sure as hell wouldn't be stupid enough to apply the general theory of relativity here, would you?  


On more important note: It takes more energy to produce a solar panel, then what energy it will produce in it's life time.

I think i slept though that in class   apparently there are some holes here and there in my knowledge. I do feel kinda stupid if this is something everyone should know x(


Unless youre creating solar panels for space exploration you get more energy back.
If this study is correct then..
Look at page 11.
http://www.solarbus.org/documents/pvpayback.pdf

[AceHigh]

Energy.... what about the cost?

Installing photovoltaic solar panels on your roof will cost you more than you save on electricity bills before the panels have to be replaced

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-83108.html

[bloody000]

If you cover the parking lot with "trees" of that size it won't be a parking lot anymore: There's no place to park!
The author of that new design obviously saw this problem and scaled the trees(especially the panels) to a much bigger size, too bad he forgot about gravity, wind and maintenance(cleaning, repairing and replacing panels).

I never heard about the Netherlands utilizing tidal power for electricity, maybe they do have a few experiments, but obviously not very well known.

[BuriaL]

Energy.... what about the cost?

Installing photovoltaic solar panels on your roof will cost you more than you save on electricity bills before the panels have to be replaced

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-83108.html

http://www.suntech-power.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=70&lang=en


Bloody, please just..be quiet.

[AceHigh]

Energy.... what about the cost?

Installing photovoltaic solar panels on your roof will cost you more than you save on electricity bills before the panels have to be replaced

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/studies/report-83108.html

http://www.suntech-power.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=70&lang=en

Doesn't change a thing as my article already stated that 25 years is expected lifetime, point is: you will not save any money during that time.

[BuriaL]

Tired and hung over right now. Ill write something anyways.

Due to my "super" math skills i might fuck this up
Not to mention how i "love" bills and theyre confusing explanations and numbers.


The power company where i live charge about 0.49 NOK / KWh (unless iam reading it wrong)

So if i used 442 NOK in power one month:

(442 / 0.49) / 30 = 30 KWh / day

The actual total of the power bill is 840 NOK. Its from december 2008.

Power cost over 25 years with the current prices: 700 NOK x 12 x 25 = 210'000 NOK




A Solaris power system:

5000W Inverter / controller  7'129$
4.85 x 5000 Solar panels  24'250$

Total: 31'379$ x 6.096 = 191'287 NOK


Norwegian(south) daylight hours:
December: 5:54
May: 22:13
Average: 28:07 / 2 = 14:03


Power system producing on 50% output for 14 hours:
5000 x 14 = 70'000 -6% = 65800 / 2 = 32900 ~32.9KWh



Notes:

You need a pretty big pile of cash for the initial cost.
Using solar power with todays tech is prolly not a good idea in norway due to little light.
A system like this will take up a good deal of space.
If something breaks and dont have a warranty the calculations fall apart.
Places with an abundance of power (like norway) are prolly not good locations for current solar panels.
Ive not included the cost of batteries or a battery system.
Storing power in batteries or hydrogen is not a good solution, batteries erode over time and hydrogen takes alot of space.

Prices typicaly rise slowly, so the power cost over 25 years will likely be higher.
Current affordable pv cells only have an effiency of 14-18%, in the future there will hopefully be better cells.


Final Conclusion: Its possible to have a system like this if everything is as its supposed to. It seems to work best in a place with many hours of sunlight and high power prices.


Do tell me if i made some mistakes, i hope i didnt xD

Picture of parking lot with Solaris Solar panels.

[AceHigh]

Using solar power with todays tech is prolly not a good idea in norway due to little light.

In other words you will still be using regular electricity and thus not save power. I believe you also for got the installation cost plus any maintenance that might occur. On other hand you will be limited to what you can do with that power. It's ok for a summer house where you need power for your cell phone charger, a lamp and a small tv. However in a real house where you spend you daily life, using things like an oven and many other electrical appliances at the same time, then the solar power becomes too unreliable.