Author Topic: South Korea succeeds in launching its first domestic space vehicle but fails-  (Read 6496 times)

darkjedi

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Re: South Korea succeeds in launching its first domestic space vehicle
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 10:05:41 AM »
I'll live in space only when the technology has reached Macross Frontier's level.

You'll likely never live in space then I'm afraid.

The world of Macross series is as advanced as it is because the humanity of that time discovered an alien artifact (a ship?) from which they reverse-engineered the alien's advanced technology.

I doubt we'll be scooping up such goodies in the foreseeable future. First thing, aliens need to exist nearby... an occurrence the chance of which is nil.

If they are already traveling towards us at interstellar speed right now but hasn't reached us yet, then we'll have detected their spectral signature already. Since we did not detect yet a signature of an object whose spectral readings (obtained through the analysis of their 'radiation's frequency; eg. gamma-ray at what amplitude, etc. then derive using doppler effect and maxwell's equation to get their probable mass and probable speed) coincides with the expected spectral readings of a spaceship which is traveling at a convenient speed for interstellar travel, we can rule out the existence of alien species in our immediate vicinity. (actually we just call it 'use the blue-shift')

So we won't meet aliens any time soon, and you wouldn't be going to space either.  :'(
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 10:07:40 AM by darkjedi »

darkjedi

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.......... ._.

That report was from U.K., this is from South Korea:

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« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 10:32:06 AM by darkjedi »

Offline relic2279

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If there are aliens traveling in interstellar space, I don't think they'd be using conventional means, otherwise it would take them tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to reach us from our closest neighboring stars.

Our only hope is they discovered an energy source capable of warping space/time (warp drive) or harnessed theoretical exotic matter capable of holding open and expanding microscopic worm holes that may or may not exist. Neither of those would give off any detectable or measurable tell tail signs that I am aware of. At least with our current technology.

darkjedi

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If there are aliens traveling in interstellar space, I don't think they'd be using conventional means, otherwise it would take them tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to reach us from our closest neighboring stars.

By conventional means, do you mean traveling using 'propulsion'? e.g. ion engine or solar sails or nuclear pulse engines or a myriad of other types of possible engines?

Interstellar travel through conventional means is possible. Theoretically humanity can already propel its spaceships to nearly 60% the speed of light using the current technology; the underlying problem would be the 'cost', and how to protect the equipments and 'possible' human crew from aging process and doppler effect. (gamma rays will fry electronics and human flesh) General relativity will not cause problems to propulsion until we reach a very very high speed, like 80~99% the speed of light. 60% is very possible, and with 60% the speed of light we can reach the nearest star system in only 7 years.

Our only hope is they discovered an energy source capable of warping space/time (warp drive) or harnessed theoretical exotic matter capable of holding open and expanding microscopic worm holes that may or may not exist. Neither of those would give off any detectable or measurable tell tail signs that I am aware of. At least with our current technology.

Definitely possible, although I don't know how useful these technology will be to us; as in, the us, those who'd use it for things like 'living' or 'traveling'. inherently our own 'body' is limited. We'll not be able to send our bodies through wormholes without being pasted into spaghetti. But that doesn't rule out nanoscopic robotic interstellar probes for research/exploration/discovery/surveillance purposes. But I think they are gonna be rather useless; we already have enough resources in our own solar system that can last us until the end of the world. We ourselves don't need to colonize other space or even explore them any further beyond our solar system. But the same might not hold true for alien species.

Btw, warping space and time definitely causes detectable tell-tail signs; 'gravitational wave' is one. The kind of explosion that we'll be required to produce in outer space to bend space into singularity will also give off radiation that can be detected even through our own means. An alien species who are as advanced as we are will be able to detect our attempt at producing singularity. There are might be other ways that I do not know of yet.

But of course if they warp space into our vicinity then they'll be here instantly so our ability to detect their 'teleport' will be irrelevant.  :)

Offline relic2279

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By conventional means, do you mean traveling using 'propulsion'? e.g. ion engine or solar sails or nuclear pulse engines or a myriad of other types of possible engines?
By conventional I meant anything sub light speed.

Quote
General relativity will not cause problems to propulsion until we reach a very very high speed, like 80~99% the speed of light. 60% is very possible, and with 60% the speed of light we can reach the nearest star system in only 7 years.
I'm pretty sure all we can achieve right now is 10% speed of light with a fusion based Orion drive (which we still would need to perfect fusion before we could do it. By the way, the Orion drive is wicked cool. You drop nukes behind you and set them off. Viola! Instant propulsion)
I haven't really seen any references of Ion thrusters even coming close to that yet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/87hhn/the_cancelled_project_orion_a_spaceship_that/



Quote
Definitely possible, although I don't know how useful these technology will be to us; as in, the us, those who'd use it for things like 'living' or 'traveling'. inherently our own 'body' is limited. We'll not be able to send our bodies through wormholes without being pasted into spaghetti.

Worm holes don't have any gravity or tidal forces like black holes do. The only problem is they're so unstable, that a single proton going through would snap one shut. That is unless you have exotic matter which produces negative energy capable of holding it hoping. Which is theoretical and may not actually exist.



Quote
Btw, warping space and time definitely causes detectable tell-tail signs; 'gravitational wave' is one. The kind of explosion that we'll be required to produce in outer space to bend space into singularity will also give off radiation that can be detected even through our own means. An alien species who are as advanced as we are will be able to detect our attempt at producing singularity. There are might be other ways that I do not know of yet.

A warp drive just creates a warp bubble around your ship. You don't need a singularity to create one. A warp drive works by compressing space time in front of you, and expanding it behind you. Almost like a jet engine, except for space/time instead of air.
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But regardless, we don't have anything up in the sky or on earth capable or rather, sensitive enough yet to detect gravitational waves (usually given off by 2 black holes or neutron stars colliding). Though, they're getting ready to put one up in space. LISA as it's called, will be launched in 2011. Still, I highly doubt it will be strong enough to detect the warping of space by a warp drive.

darkjedi

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By conventional I meant anything sub light speed.

We can reach other stars with just sub-light speed. The main issue is the process of surviving the journey.

I'm pretty sure all we can achieve right now is 10% speed of light with a fusion based Orion drive (which we still would need to perfect fusion before we could do it. By the way, the Orion drive is wicked cool. You drop nukes behind you and set them off. Viola! Instant propulsion)

The 'Orion' drive is not the only kind of nuclear pulse propulsion theoretical framework that we have. It's just the only one widely publicized. 'Theoretically' we can 'easily' achieve 60% speed of light because until 60% the speed of light the increase in 'relative' mass is negligible. All we need to do is to keep 'detonating' additional nuclear fuel to incrementally produce acceleration. Once a spaceship is accelerated to 60%, it will keep going at that velocity for a very long time. Simply put, more fuel = more acceleration. The only limit to how fast we can move is set by the general theory of relativity; which is the speed of light. Anything below the speed of light, we can reach. It's just that nuclear pulse and ion engines have better thrust-mass ratio than rocket engines. Theoretically we can reach 99% the speed of light also; the problem is that we'll need like a billion times more fuel to accelerate from 60% to 99% than what's needed to accelerate from 0% to 60%. Current Earth's stockpile of fissile materials will not be enough to provide those... billion tons of nuclear fuel. But we can provide a few tons, which will be enough to accelerate a ship to 60% the speed of light.

Assuming negligible effect of relativity until 60% the speed of light, we can assume that:

20kg of fissile material will produce 1 kiloton yield
(davy crocket has 50 lb warhead and can be dialed to produce 1 kt)

1 kiloton = 4.2 × 10^12 J

so 2 tons of fissile fuel would mean 4.2 x 10^14 J.

To convert this to thrust we just use 1/2 vt^2. 1/2 mv^2. (lol xD)

Ah well we'll need calculator from this point so I'll just leave it at that.

But the theoretical framework behind nuclear pulse engine is really that simple.  :) I know we as humans can definitely reach 60% the speed of light, because we understand the framework behind it.

I haven't really seen any references of Ion thrusters even coming close to that yet.

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/87hhn/the_cancelled_project_orion_a_spaceship_that/

It's not because we don't have the skills to achieve that technology but it's just that we don't need to achieve it. We don't have a use for interstellar drives yet so we didn't spend money for it.

A warp drive just creates a warp bubble around your ship. You don't need a singularity to create one. A warp drive works by compressing space time in front of you, and expanding it behind you. Almost like a jet engine, except for space/time instead of air.
(click to show/hide)

Ah I see. I thought you meant something like 'warping' space, as in, bending it to create a portal or something. Creating a portal (connecting two space-time into a single space-time) requires singularity.

But regardless, we don't have anything up in the sky or on earth capable or rather, sensitive enough yet to detect gravitational waves (usually given off by 2 black holes or neutron stars colliding). Though, they're getting ready to put one up in space. LISA as it's called, will be launched in 2011. Still, I highly doubt it will be strong enough to detect the warping of space by a warp drive.

Yeah, and even if we had the technology to detect gravity waves it will still be useless because they'll be here instantly anyway.  :)



Although I'd much prefer to discuss an easier subject. >.> For one, the thread title reads 'South Korea succeeds in launching its first domestic space vehicle but fails-', so...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 11:56:52 AM by darkjedi »

darkjedi

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Here it goes.

Wobbly.

Correction: the news guy mentions 'given the fact that it's [Korea] was supported by the United States'; this is false, Korea got help from Russians, not Americans.

And here's an Iranian space launch for good measure.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: South Korea repeatedly phails to launch its first domestic space vehicle
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2009, 07:03:07 PM »
the rocket looks like a giant pen or crayon LOL

that aside it was on the news but it being delay or something

what's it for anyways i barely heard it being used to monitor earth's something ( wasn't paying much attention was it was on the news )

it's missing its balls. they're probably located inside or something.


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darkjedi

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fail to operate

Depends on how you define 'fail to operate'. The satellite could have worked properly if it got to proper orbit, and the telecommunication and navigation equipments committed no mistakes. The error was in a mechanical part.

Since 99% of the system worked properly, I'll call it a partial success; although we couldn't conduct scientific experiments, which was part of our mission objective, we still launched a space vehicle that reached space. I dunno about you.  :P

Offline vuzedome

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Don't worry fellas, you're looking a the future rocket scientist for Malaysia, my first launch will have a 100% fail rate guaranteed!!
Basically all of the rocket scientist coming from here will give the same results.  ;D
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darkjedi

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I need citations!

Offline quekmeister

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Don't worry fellas, you're looking a the future rocket scientist for Malaysia, my first launch will have a 100% fail rate guaranteed!!
Basically all of the rocket scientist coming from here will give the same results.  ;D
Oh good, tell our space tourist 'Hi' from me if you get to meet him.
By the way, teh tarik pouring/roti canai tossing in space = fail.

darkjedi

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By the way, teh tarik pouring/roti canai tossing in space = fail.

What's this lol, some new previously unknown English words? xD What's that mean?

Offline vuzedome

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By the way, teh tarik pouring/roti canai tossing in space = fail.

What's this lol, some new previously unknown English words? xD What's that mean?

Teh Tarik basically bubbled tea and Roti Canai being flat burned dough, I don't really know any other way of describing it.
Use Google images and you'll understand.
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Offline quekmeister

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By the way, teh tarik pouring/roti canai tossing in space = fail.

What's this lol, some new previously unknown English words? xD What's that mean?

Teh Tarik basically bubbled tea and Roti Canai being flat burned dough, I don't really know any other way of describing it.
Use Google images and you'll understand.
They are examples of Malaysian food that are made in slightly unusual ways, teh tarik is poured between two steel mugs with four feet of somewhat vertical separation, and canai is tossed a little like pizza. Our government wanted experiments done in zero gravity on the behaviour of these two foodstuffs when they sent our first 'astronaut' up into space on a Russian Soyuz. The Russians said 'No.', thankfully. Think of what really hot tea or oiled dough would do to an instrument panel!

I shudder when I think that we're trying to build a nuclear power plant.

Offline boxer4

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It's not because we don't have the skills to achieve that technology but it's just that we don't need to achieve it. We don't have a use for interstellar drives yet so we didn't spend money for it.
The technology needed to get from star to star doesn't exist, and nobody even has an idea how to do it yet - at least safely move a human from star to star (and back).  It's also not like we don't have a need for it -- just think of all the trouble that could be saved if people who hate each other could be spread further apart (GET OFF MY PLANET)... or get more resources so that one planet could support more people...  Just that it's ridiculously expensive to do the research where we don't know what the goal is yet - or the big thing is, whether we can profit from it.  What is "dark energy" and "dark matter"?  What can it be used for?  We haven't even scratched the surface of what can and can't be done.  The basic problem is that no matter what, a lot of this research will likely provide the person funding it no good in his/her lifetime; so by definition, is not worth the effort to research.

Not to mention humans and life in general _must_ get off the planet in order to survive at some point.  Though life can still live on Earth for possibly 500 million years - it is short compared to cosmological time.  What would happen to life when the Sun grew to a red giant and burned off all the water from the planet?  Or something that will happen sooner -  big meteor smashes into Earth again?  As the only species on the planet that have the capability to actually build things, we have the possibility to stop the ultimate fate of the planet and it is worth it to invest in atom smashers and propulsion technology in hopes to figure out how to save ourselves if somehow Earth becomes uninhabitable.

darkjedi

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I think it's more economical to build an artificial habitat than going to another star for another habitable planet. We have plenty of room and resources in our solar system; a red giant Sun's size will be a non-issue if we decider to settle in the outer moons of Jupiter.

I think we already had the technology to move an unmanned space vehicle to another star, but we chose not to use it, because we didn't need it. And it's not really a good idea to spread thin your civilization because communication will be difficult.

Offline relic2279

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Propulsion wise we do. Logistically we don't. We'd have to navigate through the Oort cloud to leave our solar system. Micro-meteorites the size of sand pulverizing the hull, and undetectable smaller asteroids, comets + possibly unknown forms radiation frying equipment beyond the oort cloud would make navigation incredibly difficult if not impossible. It would have to be an auto-piliot system as well due to the distance. There are too many variables to consider unless someone wanted to drop a few trillion into a project that only has a less then 50-50 chance of succeeding. Though, 30-70 years from now? Might a whole different story.

darkjedi

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Lol we just need to send a hundred probe instead of just one. Some of them will reach their destination eventually.

But if you mean that the manufacture of hundred probes is the problem with logistics, then you are right.