The National Debt: What it Means and How it Works

[darkjedi]

Meh. I blame Fallout 3 newspapers. >_<

[Proin Drakenzol]

I don't think Proins opinion was at odds with Dontcarett.

So I fail to see how they're relevant.

Mm, maybe it was just my perception of how Proin takes easily the likelihood of the U.S. utilizing military force to supplant creditors if the creditors insist on the U.S. paying their debt that made me say he's wrong. Such an act would have been very self-destructive, as described by Dontcarett, and humans who are as educated as most Westerners are rarely commit to suicidal acts.

You think I'm wrong because you're an idiot.

So maybe the 9th option needs to be driven entirely out of the equation, because it's very unlikely...?

I said it's more likely than #8. Not that it's at all likely to occur. Learn how to read, you dumb shit.

They would be giving up luxuries like oil

Oil is the only thing that makes luxuries possible to you. 

U.S. does not have enough oil. They still need a bilateral economic relationship with Canada at the very least to sustain their industry. And afaik Canada is a big creditor of the U.S. I learned it from Fallout 3!


Source:

Canada and the U.S. have also one of the world's largest investment relationships. The United States is the largest foreign investor in Canada and the most popular destination for Canadian investment. In 2006, U.S. direct investment in Canada was worth more than $241 billion USD, while Canadian direct investment in the United States was close to $197 billion USD, which makes Canada the 5th largest investor in the U.S., accounting for 8.9% of all Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in that country.

$200 billion is pretty big.

Please kill yourself to remove your sub-optimal genes from the gene-pool. KTHXBAI.

[darkjedi]

Given that the majority of the creditors of the U.S. are Americans, I think it's far more likely that the property of the U.S. will be liquidated among the Americans rather than the whole America going self-destructive due to property issues. The only thing that will be changed is basically who owns the White House, who owns the Freedom Tower, etc. It's less destabilizing than going to war with China, for example.

So I say #8 is more likely than #9. Anyway, I got you wrong. Sorry for that.

[Proin Drakenzol]

Given that the majority of the creditors of the U.S. are Americans, I think it's far more likely that the property of the U.S. will be liquidated among the Americans rather than the whole America going self-destructive due to property issues. The only thing that will be changed is basically who owns the White House, who owns the Freedom Tower, etc. It's less destabilizing than going to war with China, for example.

So I say #8 is more likely than #9. Anyway, I got you wrong. Sorry for that.

The US will not liquidate to anybody.

#8 is more likely because (and I will break it down for you because you are too stupid to understand on your own): if the US gets to a point where it literally CAN NOT pay back ANY of its debt it will tell everyone "sorry, we don't owe anyone anything anymore because we can't pay it back." Individuals and corporations will have to suck it up because they can't do anything about it. The only entities that COULD do anything about it are other countries. The ONLY option that would be available to these countries in this instance would be open hostilities to try and forcibly take US assets (not that this is likely to occur). This would be a declaration of war. The US would declare war back in this scenario.

This is FAR more likely than the US gov't liquidating and ceasing to exist. Semnae is a fucking moron for even suggesting such a thing, not that this is a surprise.

[Semnae]

This is FAR more likely than the US gov't liquidating and ceasing to exist. Semnae is a fucking moron for even suggesting such a thing, not that this is a surprise.

Dude, chill.  I said it was "extremely unlikely".  I was just listing all the possibilities off the top of my head.  Your #9 is perfectly valid, I just didn't think of it.  I think, however, that the US would sooner damage its credit rating than start absolving itself of debt.  Refusing to pay back debt is much more hostile than simply being unable to pay it back, and people would stop buying treasuries either way.

[darkjedi]

You guys' hysteria confuses me. >.>

[Spanks]

I think what Proin is trying to say is no one can stand up to the Omighty Eternal Empire of the United States of America, and its Perfect economic and social system....

[darkjedi]

Careful, he'll bite you hard for saying that.

[Proin Drakenzol]

I think what Proin is trying to say is no one can stand up to the Omighty Eternal Empire of the United States of America, and its Perfect economic and social system....

No, what I'm saying is that no country, ever, has liquidated itself to pay back debt.

You too, should probably jump off a bridge.

[Semnae]

For those of you who think the US has a high debt, check out Zimbabwe's.  I can't find a recent source, but last year theirs was in the multi-quadrillions.

[darkjedi]

multi-quadrillions.

Three-digit quadrillions.

[Spanks]

multi-quadrillions.

Three-digit quadrillions.

But that's Zimbabwean dollars which was worth nothing last year and even less this year, up untill they made made it illegal.

[WingZero8788]

Proin is right. The US, or any country for that matter, would sooner go to war then no longer exist as their own country.

[darkjedi]

Isn't the America ruled by Americans still an America?

[WingZero8788]

If Nation A is taken over by Nation B, Nation A will cease to be Nation A. It may retain it's name but it will no longer be under the same form of government and will be under the rule of Nation B, directly or indirectly.

[darkjedi]

If Nation A is taken over by Nation B, Nation A will cease to be Nation A. It may retain it's name but it will no longer be under the same form of government and will be under the rule of Nation B, directly or indirectly.

Judging from relic2279's link, 75% of U.S.'s creditors are Americans. So in this case, Nation B is still the America itself, because it will be ruled by Americans. It will still be democratic, and it will be capitalist. That's what the majority of America's creditors (the Americans themselves) want.

Same form of government, yes. Ruled by different American people.

[Proin Drakenzol]

If Nation A is taken over by Nation B, Nation A will cease to be Nation A. It may retain it's name but it will no longer be under the same form of government and will be under the rule of Nation B, directly or indirectly.

Judging from relic2279's link, 75% of U.S.'s creditors are Americans. So in this case, Nation B is still the America itself, because it will be ruled by Americans. It will still be democratic, and it will be capitalist. That's what the majority of America's creditors (the Americans themselves) want.

Same form of government, yes. Ruled by different American people.

except that's still not what would happen.

[vicious796]

Most of you are making my head hurt terribly. Proin made a simple statement and everyone has turned it into the US would declare war on its own people.... I'm not quite sure how you got there. It's kind've like Proin came in and said "Hey, dogs make the best pets." and then someone said "Proin, you're stupid, clearly the Mississippi River runs through Mississippi!" and then some followers jumped on board. Then the argument turned into dogs in Mississippi.

I don't really see what's debatable in this thread, it's a matter-of-fact OP explaining how national debt works and why the US can't continue to rack it up.

[WingZero8788]

If Nation A is taken over by Nation B, Nation A will cease to be Nation A. It may retain it's name but it will no longer be under the same form of government and will be under the rule of Nation B, directly or indirectly.

Judging from relic2279's link, 75% of U.S.'s creditors are Americans. So in this case, Nation B is still the America itself, because it will be ruled by Americans. It will still be democratic, and it will be capitalist. That's what the majority of America's creditors (the Americans themselves) want.

Same form of government, yes. Ruled by different American people.

I was speaking of two separate nations, not a government and it's people. More specifically I was trying to expand on the fact that the US will go to war with other Nations, which would be the ones to actually call us on our "We owe nothing because we can't pay you" statement. If we loose said war we are not America anymore. You are still stuck on liquidation of America to it's main bond holders which are American's dominantly.

Or if I'm still not clear enough I'll just say this, Proin is right.

[darkjedi]

It's kind've like Proin came in and said "Hey, dogs make the best pets." and then someone said "Proin, you're stupid, clearly the Mississippi River runs through Mississippi!" and then some followers jumped on board. Then the argument turned into dogs in Mississippi.

Hilarious. xD

Maybe this forum really isn't conducive for political discussions lol