Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\

[Mag-X]

It makes it horrible if you go into the ER with a real reason other then the sniffles, like when I go with a broken arm, I normally would have like a 3 hour wait

3 hours? According to the Republicans you obviously live in Canada with a wait time like that. That could never happen in doesn't-need-to-be-fixed-America-fuck-yeah.

[kostya]

If you walk into an emergency room with a cold and are an illegal immigrant and cant pay. They cant refuse to treat you.

Every doctors office and hospital I have been to has a nice sign by the door saying that they treat without proof of insurance. That is how it should be. Health care is a basic human need. I don't care how a person entered the county, he/she should not be denied the basic needs. At the end of the day, we are all human. It is illegal to murder and steal from illegal aliens for the same reason.

[Klocknov]

It makes it horrible if you go into the ER with a real reason other then the sniffles, like when I go with a broken arm, I normally would have like a 3 hour wait

3 hours? According to the Republicans you obviously live in Canada with a wait time like that. That could never happen in doesn't-need-to-be-fixed-America-fuck-yeah.

You know what, I live in the US and those Republicans can go fly a kite since they really don't care for better health-care and just want the money.

Now back to the topic on hand.
Okay as much as I hate watching Illegals get treated, with a public health-care system it wouldn't hit us as badly, well that is if they added them to be supported. I think the kids definitely should be, but the parents I think should have to do something in paying back the country for their health-care since that would be the right thing to do. I don't find it fair that they can go in get treated and walk out and not pay a cent and increase the rates for the rest of us. Though that would be helped a lot if we moved to a public system.
Now also the health-care system could work out a way to be better with even the current system. If we added say public health-care they still could set up private-care institutes that require a bit extra of insurance for a faster service. Instead we look at all the propaganda they threw up on TV and the net and bow down to the all holy and righteous media. I will have to say I agree with Obama for once, did those people even look at the fucking bill or did they just go with those fucking right wing zealots bullshit. I may have the no job no school no health insurance helping pull me into this bill, but I even thought it would be a better system setup before this. Also if you look at it by statistics we probably would end up with a healthier country in the long run. Also if we added in a private sector that required insurance for quicker response then the insurance companies wouldn't have anything to throw a hussy over.

[kyanwan]

Why are Democrats whining about Republicans?  

They don't need a single Republican vote.  They don't need any Republican support.   They should be more like Republicans: Just fucking do it.  They're afraid to go alone.  They're wishy-washy  weak spineless fools.  They want SOMEONE to blame when it fails (and it will - because the expensive COST of healthcare is UNSUPPORTABLE - something needs to be done about COST first - NOT SUPPORTING THE HIGH COST FOR THE WHOLE NATION.  Drag down the cost THEN insure.   Make it CHEAPER before you make an option.   What the hell is so hard about that?   What's so hard to understand? )

If this doesn't prove the party isn't batshit crazy, I don't know what does.

Joe Wilson (R) of S. Carolina in the middle of Obama's speech:  "You Lie!"
Video: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/09/you_lie.php?ref=fpblg

Only, Obama wasn't.

Claim: Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services. False. That’s simply not what the bill says at all. This page includes "SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE," which says that "[e]xcept as otherwise explicitly permitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations consistent with this Act, all health care and related services (including insurance coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services." However, the bill does explicitly say that illegal immigrants can’t get any government money to pay for health care. Page 143 states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." And as we’ve said before, current law prohibits illegal immigrants from participating in government health care programs.

Source


So, he's either a republican so blinded by the money the lobbyists are paying him and/or his party that he doesn't care, or he's a complete moron to object in such a manner without having any clue what he's talking about.

Technically - he's right.

What doctor in their right mind would let a man die in front of their eyes?  They will treat.  Regardless of whether the person is a citizen, or non-citizen.

The treatment of a person will be completed, if it is paid for - all is good.  If it is not, compensation will be extracted from elsewhere.

This is not a question of policy, insurance, healthcare, politics ... but one of humanity and morals.

No person should be denied aid if they are in need.

IF there were a rule to deny care to non-citizens/illegals - I WOULD support a small tax to provide emergency assistance for life-threatening conditions to a person who is unable to be covered under any option offered.  ( I'm positive it would be negligible. )

It's not right to let a person die.  Sure - care about your money, care about how much tax you pay - but don't throw aside humanity.   Once you toss that aside - the next step is monster.

You know what, I live in the US and those Republicans can go fly a kite since they really don't care for better health-care and just want the money.

Why won't the Democrats put limits on malpractice claims then?

Malpractice claims and insurance are the highest cost for the healthcare industry.   Cutting costs is one way to raise profits - the other way is to raise prices.  

If the cost of doing business is lowered, the price of the product will be lowered.  

If the price does not fall - THEN you regulate.

Why won't congress attack the lawyers?  

Because they are lawyers.

Talk about lobby - they ARE the lobby.

Every doctors office and hospital I have been to has a nice sign by the door saying that they treat without proof of insurance. That is how it should be. Health care is a basic human need. I don't care how a person entered the county, he/she should not be denied the basic needs. At the end of the day, we are all human. It is illegal to murder and steal from illegal aliens for the same reason.

In the words of the Constitution: "All men are created equal"

If there was a question as to citizenship, it would have read: "all citizens are created equal"

Notice it doesn't say that.   There's hypocrisy on both sides.

[relic2279]

Technically - he's right.

What doctor in their right mind would let a man die in front of their eyes?  They will treat.  Regardless of whether the person is a citizen, or non-citizen.

No, He's absolutely wrong. Obama said illegals weren't covered under the public option plan. That's the statement at which he yelled "You Lie!". Which Obama wasn't lying.

Treatment of illegals while uninsured or not covered is an entirely different matter. You're confusing the two.  

[kostya]

Every doctors office and hospital I have been to has a nice sign by the door saying that they treat without proof of insurance. That is how it should be. Health care is a basic human need. I don't care how a person entered the county, he/she should not be denied the basic needs. At the end of the day, we are all human. It is illegal to murder and steal from illegal aliens for the same reason.

In the words of the Constitution: "All men are created equal"

If there was a question as to citizenship, it would have read: "all citizens are created equal"

Notice it doesn't say that.   There's hypocrisy on both sides.
[/quote]

No, that is the declaration of independence. The constitution is a document that deals with the general design of the government (defines the 3 branches, states' rights etc.). The amendments to the constitution, which is what you were thinking of, are a contract between the government and the people to not abuse the most basic of human rights (imprisonment without charges, free speech) unless the government explicitly denies the rights (such as in times of war).

But I will agree that the US government does have a good track record of giving equal human rights to all people regardless of alien status.

[vicious796]

Here we go again, misunderstanding a simple sentence. Where does it say that all men are always equal. Let me break it down for you (once more).

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Let's look at bold number 1, as that's the key word there. CREATED. At birth (when we are created) we are equal and what we do after that determines status. I'm sick of people crying for equal treatment and quoting that line incorrectly. Ladies and gentlemen of bakabt, I wish you would read it as it is. Created, not eternal. At birth we are the same and after that we carve our own path in our own, personal, pursuit of happiness. At birth we are alive, we have our own mind, and we can do as we please to be happy.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

This says that we, the governed, create a government that allows us to go about our lives pursuing happiness however we choose to. Free men choose the United States government, not equal men.

A man who rose up from the gutters to live a good life with good benefits is better than a man who chooses to stay in that environment, saying it's all they've ever known. He is ENTITLED to pursue his happiness, not have it given to him. It is his right to have the things before him that he can afford and make his own decisions on how to spend the money that he's earned.

[mgz]

Every doctors office and hospital I have been to has a nice sign by the door saying that they treat without proof of insurance. That is how it should be. Health care is a basic human need. I don't care how a person entered the county, he/she should not be denied the basic needs. At the end of the day, we are all human. It is illegal to murder and steal from illegal aliens for the same reason.

In the words of the Constitution: "All men are created equal"

If there was a question as to citizenship, it would have read: "all citizens are created equal"

Notice it doesn't say that.   There's hypocrisy on both sides.

i think you are confusing what denial of treatment is and a right.
You have the right to persue happiness, does that mean everyone is happy NO.

You have the right to go to a doctor and PAY for medical treatment.
Why no the doctor paid hundreds of thousands for his education why not expect patients who receive treatment to do the same.

Denying someone treatment is not saying they cant have treatment its saying if you cant pay me or have insurance pay me im not treating you.
plain and simple

No, that is the declaration of independence. The constitution is a document that deals with the general design of the government (defines the 3 branches, states' rights etc.). The amendments to the constitution, which is what you were thinking of, are a contract between the government and the people to not abuse the most basic of human rights (imprisonment without charges, free speech) unless the government explicitly denies the rights (such as in times of war).

But I will agree that the US government does have a good track record of giving equal human rights to all people regardless of alien status.
[/quote]

[vicious796]

Obama's best speech was by a HORRIBLE impersonation of him on SNL and it features the BEST version of Relic's list of accomplishments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqJbjLIzykU&feature=related

[molbjerg]

American politics is insane and pathetic.

Although I have to say British politics is making me want to cry these days.

One of the few remaining things that makes me proud of my country, the NHS is top of the list. I think it says a lot about our culture that even the lowest of the low get treatment. I think it says a lot about Americans that they resist the idea so much. WHAT? SPEND OUR TAXES ON SAVING LIVES INSTEAD OF BOMBS?!??! ZOMG

I think it's completely unethical to have someone wheeled into hospital, needing help - do you have a piece of paper? No. Ok, die then.

[vicious796]

American politics is insane and pathetic.

Although I have to say British politics is making me want to cry these days.

One of the few remaining things that makes me proud of my country, the NHS is top of the list. I think it says a lot about our culture that even the lowest of the low get treatment. I think it says a lot about Americans that they resist the idea so much. WHAT? SPEND OUR TAXES ON SAVING LIVES INSTEAD OF BOMBS?!??! ZOMG

I think it's completely unethical to have someone wheeled into hospital, needing help - do you have a piece of paper? No. Ok, die then.

It's more about proper allocation, at least in my case. This is one of those things that should be solved at a STATE level but the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT decides to come in and fuck with it. Our Federal Government is WAY WAY WAY too big and it's getting to a point where it can't support itself. We've become a child country where everyone just wants handouts from the Federal Government.

I hate to say it, but I promise you unemployment will NEVER be low again in the United States if there's a public option. There are some people out there who ONLY work to have health insurance for their kids. This is almost admirable, except that when a public option comes into play and they realize they can just pick up unemployment checks every week and STILL have insurance for their kids, goodbye work.

Medicare is fucked up, we need to do something about it, but a public option (which is what the big boys are rooting for) on a national level for the United States just makes no sense. Do it state-wide, I might even vote for it if the Commonwealth of Virginia said they were gonna handle it (and ONLY them).

[relic2279]

It's more about proper allocation, at least in my case. This is one of those things that should be solved at a STATE level but the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT decides to come in and fuck with it. Our Federal Government is WAY WAY WAY too big and it's getting to a point where it can't support itself.

Thank the republicans over the last 30 years for that...

The insurance companies do not work on a state level. The work at a national level. Trying to get each state to negotiate terms of a public option for health care service with the different insurance providers is not just unrealistic, it's a near impossibility. And one sided.

I hate to say it, but I promise you unemployment will NEVER be low again in the United States if there's a public option. There are some people out there who ONLY work to have health insurance for their kids.

Poor people work every day to have money to eat. To insure themselves, their kids, and to pay bills. Saying someone 'only works for insurance' is grasping at straws.

This is almost admirable, except that when a public option comes into play and they realize they can just pick up unemployment checks every week and STILL have insurance for their kids, goodbye work.

Guess what, you still have to PAY for the public option. Whether they're spending money on bills, drugs or god for bid, insurance, I'm not entirely sure why you think that's a bad thing for unemployed people to do.

Medicare is fucked up

Medicare is actually pretty good. I've had first hand experience. I wish I had it now. The only thing that sucks about medicare is it takes too long to get approved to be on it. I'd take medicare over the "first rate" medical insurance I had with Verizon Wireless any day of the week.

[fohfoh]

I still think a public + private health care system makes more sense. The hybrid allows for people who need instant care, to get it if they can pay. Those who need help, but can wait... then do so. Why everyone always thinks that it instantly swaps as if the government is going to go, "OK, we're taking over control of health care now. Please hand over assets like a good citizen." is beyond me.

[Proin Drakenzol]

I find it interesting that while not a single person arguing against a public option feels they might ever need it the converse is not true.

[vicious796]

I find it interesting that while not a single person arguing against a public option feels they might ever need it the converse is not true.

Because, when you lose your job, your company usually pays for your insurance for awhile after it as a severance. Aside from that medicare and COBRA do what they need to for short periods of time. Seeing as I would NEVER go a long period of time without a job, a lack of health insurance to some degree is not a concern of mine.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs. I've never had a problem in any state I've ever lived in. Are they the BEST jobs? No. But money is money in a tight spot and responsible people do what they have to do to get things done.

@relic

What are you talking about, insurance companies don't work at a state level? Are you retarded? Have you EVER filled out an insurance form? You report the state you work in due to rates in different states varying. Why? Law suits. West Virginia, for example, doesn't have a max amount you can sue for in case of a medical or car accident. What does that mean? Insurance rates are THROUGH THE ROOF in West Virginia. Do companies work in multiple states? Yes, but it all goes down to different rates for different reasons and they have STATE OFFICES for that purpose.

I'm also getting really, really sick of hearing about how the republicans have done everything wrong in the last 30 years as though no Democrat or Independant has ever voted to increase government size. This current administration is totally democrat, he has a majority in all of congress and a slight edge in the Justices and he's done NOTHING aside from increase government size. The government owns everything right now, does it not? Tax dollars have bought out companies left and right and the government is larger than ever and it's a big, fat, democrat lead charge. Can your Republican hate shit for some other place, they didn't do it alone.

Yes, poor people work every day to do things - but poor people also do nothing all day too. I'm not saying every single poor person will not work because they don't need insurance but there will be those who won't and unemployment will be higher on an average because of it. There are lifers on the wellfare system who have lived in government funded housing for generations buying things on welfare taxed money for their entire lives, don't start telling me that every American works hard like you and me because that's a bold faced lie. I'll tell you a flat out truth - those who don't work hard don't deserve the benefits and nice things in life that you and I enjoy. They flat out don't.

You also hit the nail on the head - I still have to pay for the public option. If it works the way they've been talking about it (like USPS compared to UPS and FedEx) it'll be tax dollars funding a public option for those who are without paid insurance. Right now, there is no public option in the plan and it's just an enforced restructuring (or so it seems) of how these private companies do business. If Mr. Reid gets his way that will change.

I still think a public vs private health care system makes more sense. The hybrid allows for people who need instant care, to get it if they can pay. Those who need help, but can wait... then do so. Why everyone always thinks that it instantly swaps as if the government is going to go, "OK, we're taking over control of health care now. Please hand over assets like a good citizen." is beyond me.

Because we've seen rapid government takeovers recently that are rather astounding. Look at the car manufacturers and mortgage companies, the government just bought them without really blinking an eye at first. It was this massive multi-billion dollar takeover that the taxpayers are going to be paying for for generations. Now we're talking about a continual tax to pay for millions of people and no guarantee on our money. Congress has tried to RUSH something through that probably deserves a really, really, really long and hard look. Why? Because it's not going to affect them personally. They've already refused to sign off on using the public option if they voted for it, what does that tell you? Either it's not good enough for them but it is for their constituency or they have no real idea what it is they're pushing so they're hesitant to go for it.

If I'm going to be stuck paying for something, I want to know it will work and work well. I want to know it's gone through all kinds of changes to be the closest thing to perfect they could come up with, not something they slapped together in 3 months and blew through to pat themselves on the back on what great humanitarians they are.

[Klocknov]

My main question is where is the money coming from to foot this bill right now, this is a trillion dollar investment. We have already spent more in the first six months with Obama as president as we did in eight years of Bush, were did all the money come from to pay for this?

Though past that I want to see this bill go threw. I find that most my jobs end up being part time jobs that don't offer health insurance. I have bounced from PT job to PT job since 17 years old, and the only time I ever had health insurance was when I was going to school, and that was under my mum. So I find that it benefits more people then it won't. Yeah you will have those people that will drop their jobs and go for unemployment, but that only will last them so long. They do reviews to make sure your at least trying to find work, so you trying to use that as an excuse truly doesn't work. Though you have a valid point with the welfare puppies, though they mostly have health insurance anyways so that really doesn't factor much into this.

[fohfoh]

I still think a public + private health care system makes more sense. The hybrid allows for people who need instant care, to get it if they can pay. Those who need help, but can wait... then do so. Why everyone always thinks that it instantly swaps as if the government is going to go, "OK, we're taking over control of health care now. Please hand over assets like a good citizen." is beyond me.

Because we've seen rapid government takeovers recently that are rather astounding. Look at the car manufacturers and mortgage companies, the government just bought them without really blinking an eye at first. It was this massive multi-billion dollar takeover that the taxpayers are going to be paying for for generations. Now we're talking about a continual tax to pay for millions of people and no guarantee on our money. Congress has tried to RUSH something through that probably deserves a really, really, really long and hard look. Why? Because it's not going to affect them personally. They've already refused to sign off on using the public option if they voted for it, what does that tell you? Either it's not good enough for them but it is for their constituency or they have no real idea what it is they're pushing so they're hesitant to go for it.

If I'm going to be stuck paying for something, I want to know it will work and work well. I want to know it's gone through all kinds of changes to be the closest thing to perfect they could come up with, not something they slapped together in 3 months and blew through to pat themselves on the back on what great humanitarians they are.

Fixed. Sorry for error.

But seriously. This issue has been in the air long before the bailouts. So technically, it's different. People always assumed that public health care would be government controlled, but people didn't consider having some huge companies being owned by the government.

[vicious796]

My main question is where is the money coming from to foot this bill right now, this is a trillion dollar investment. We have already spent more in the first six months with Obama as president as we did in eight years of Bush, were did all the money come from to pay for this?

Though past that I want to see this bill go threw. I find that most my jobs end up being part time jobs that don't offer health insurance. I have bounced from PT job to PT job since 17 years old, and the only time I ever had health insurance was when I was going to school, and that was under my mum. So I find that it benefits more people then it won't. Yeah you will have those people that will drop their jobs and go for unemployment, but that only will last them so long. They do reviews to make sure your at least trying to find work, so you trying to use that as an excuse truly doesn't work. Though you have a valid point with the welfare puppies, though they mostly have health insurance anyways so that really doesn't factor much into this.

Sure, the system is laid out to work that way (with the reviews), but just like everything else managed by the government, it never does. There are PLENTY of people who have never worked a day in their life but have collected welfare that whole time.

[relic2279]

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs. I've never had a problem in any state I've ever lived in. Are they the BEST jobs? No. But money is money in a tight spot and responsible people do what they have to do to get things done.

A good portion of this health care reform deals with the insurance companies. Directly. Not allowing them to drop you and/or rejecting you for previous conditions or error in paper work. Which if something were to happen to you right now, it'd be the first thing they'd do. Look for ways NOT to cover you. Their bottom line is money. Not your health.

What are you talking about, insurance companies don't work at a state level?

I think you misunderstood me, Insurance companies are companies that do business at the national level. They're structured to do business in America's economy. Not at the state level. It's much easier to get something done like this at the national level than just having a free for all at the state level. It's also in my opinion, unrealistic.

I'll tell you a flat out truth - those who don't work hard don't deserve the benefits and nice things in life that you and I enjoy. They flat out don't.

I don't disagree with that at all.

[fohfoh]

I'm pretty sure that in my province, one of the requirements of getting health care (unless a special case) is to work for a certain amount of hours in the province. That means if you're from an external province, you need to fulfill that requirement. However, sometimes that requirement is waved due to extenuating circumstances or by proving the criteria is met elsewhere (but usually rare).

The amount I think is only like 20 or 30 hours, unless they changed it, but it's still there.