Author Topic: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\  (Read 5656 times)

Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2009, 05:15:21 PM »

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs. I've never had a problem in any state I've ever lived in. Are they the BEST jobs? No. But money is money in a tight spot and responsible people do what they have to do to get things done.

A good portion of this health care reform deals with the insurance companies. Directly. Not allowing them to drop you and/or rejecting you for previous conditions or error in paper work. Which if something were to happen to you right now, it'd be the first thing they'd do. Look for ways NOT to cover you. Their bottom line is money. Not your health.

They aren't doctors, they're businesses. A car dealership doesn't care about my driving record if I'm trying to buy a Viper, they care about how much I'm putting down and what my credit score is. If the money stops coming in service should stop coming out. I'm not against passing laws on certain ways they do business, I'm against a public option that they're trying DESPERATELY to put in.


Quote
Quote
What are you talking about, insurance companies don't work at a state level?
I think you misunderstood me, Insurance companies are companies that do business at the national level. They're structured to do business in America's economy. Not at the state level. It's much easier to get something done like this at the national level than just having a free for all at the state level. It's also in my opinion, unrealistic.

The question is are we both talking about a public option? I don't want a national public option but I'm ok with some small level of business mandates coming from the government at a federal level. Public insurance should be a state-level issue.


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Offline Klocknov

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2009, 05:20:24 PM »
My main question is where is the money coming from to foot this bill right now, this is a trillion dollar investment. We have already spent more in the first six months with Obama as president as we did in eight years of Bush, were did all the money come from to pay for this?

Though past that I want to see this bill go threw. I find that most my jobs end up being part time jobs that don't offer health insurance. I have bounced from PT job to PT job since 17 years old, and the only time I ever had health insurance was when I was going to school, and that was under my mum. So I find that it benefits more people then it won't. Yeah you will have those people that will drop their jobs and go for unemployment, but that only will last them so long. They do reviews to make sure your at least trying to find work, so you trying to use that as an excuse truly doesn't work. Though you have a valid point with the welfare puppies, though they mostly have health insurance anyways so that really doesn't factor much into this.

Sure, the system is laid out to work that way (with the reviews), but just like everything else managed by the government, it never does. There are PLENTY of people who have never worked a day in their life but have collected welfare that whole time.
Unemployment is different then welfare, the welfare system is a lot more fucked up with all those welfare puppies then is the unemployment system. I have had many family members go threw the unemployment system and I have watched some get dropped off of it. I also will admit I have welfare puppies as friends, some of them truly aren't abusing the system, but most are and even my friends that are on it agree with that, well minus one... The welfare system is an abused system that is broken due to abuse.
Now back on topic, the public health care system would help out the nations health also. I'm pretty sure having healthier people is going to promote a better growth in the nation, though that is just my opinion. Also this would fix the current systems many loopholes and ways to fuck the person on health insurance, though yes it will have its own, it will still clean up many that are present as of now.
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2009, 05:32:01 PM »
So, despite the fact that we'll be creating new problems with involuntary taxes it's ok in the end because we'll be taking problems away from a system where people chose to pay?


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Offline relic2279

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2009, 06:42:31 PM »
I'm pretty sure the public option plan is budget neutral.

http://www.hanlonsrazor.org/2009/09/10/the-official-white-house-health-plan-public-option-budget-neutral/
If that is how they work it I would be even more for it then I already am. I still find the money issue a problem, though we will have top see how that goes about in the long run.

@vicious796: The major problems could be weeded out as we find them, as long as the system gets set in right. Any system in the beginning is going to have it's issues, as long as they fix the issues instead of ignore them and let them get worse it will be a great system. It's kind of like the welfare system, if they just say fuck it we don't care the system will go downhill and fail but if they stuck work into it we could see a great alternative to private insurance for those who can't afford it.
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2009, 01:50:13 PM »
A blogger who doesn't actually lay it out, just says it'll be paid for up front without an increase in defecit, and has what kind've credentials? Why should I believe he's not drinkin the kool-aid again? It'll get paid for in cuts... cuts in what? What are you cutting that is enough to finance this?

Ask these questions people, ask them. Otherwise you're just following and will just end up complaining about how you no longer have such and such so someone else can have something else. If it'll break even with the public option, why not cut down the defecit with the money you would've been spending on it?

Think.


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Offline kostya

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2009, 09:18:35 PM »
I find it interesting that while not a single person arguing against a public option feels they might ever need it the converse is not true.
Because, when you lose your job, your company usually pays for your insurance for awhile after it as a severance. Aside from that medicare and COBRA do what they need to for short periods of time. Seeing as I would NEVER go a long period of time without a job, a lack of health insurance to some degree is not a concern of mine.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs. I've never had a problem in any state I've ever lived in. Are they the BEST jobs? No. But money is money in a tight spot and responsible people do what they have to do to get things done.

You have been lucky with jobs. Out of the last 5 years, my father has had the option of having insurance through his workplace for a total of 4 months. He got laid off from his job. He then spent a year on unemployment improving his skills and looking for another professional job. After giving up on that, he got the only job that he could, working as an orderly in a mental institution (which did not give him health insurance either). After several more months, he found a job but he was a contractor so again, no benefits. He spent 3 years working for the company with his manager constantly promising him that a permanent job offer was going to occur soon, once the group gets the product out. The product flopped, the group got disbanded, and all contracts terminated, so he was once again laid off. Finally, this August he found a permanent job with benefits.

One of my friends has to get insurance through her school because both her parents run a small business so to get insurance for the family would be prohibitively expensive. Her parents are uninsured since it is cheaper to just pay medical bills out of pocket.

Offline nates1984

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2009, 09:23:45 PM »
Think.

No! I refuse! I'd rather just believe unproven claims by some blogger who can't even put up an "about me" page most likely due to the fact he has no credentials!

Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2009, 12:54:57 AM »
You have been lucky with jobs. Out of the last 5 years, my father has had the option of having insurance through his workplace for a total of 4 months. He got laid off from his job. He then spent a year on unemployment improving his skills and looking for another professional job. After giving up on that, he got the only job that he could, working as an orderly in a mental institution (which did not give him health insurance either). After several more months, he found a job but he was a contractor so again, no benefits. He spent 3 years working for the company with his manager constantly promising him that a permanent job offer was going to occur soon, once the group gets the product out. The product flopped, the group got disbanded, and all contracts terminated, so he was once again laid off. Finally, this August he found a permanent job with benefits.

One of my friends has to get insurance through her school because both her parents run a small business so to get insurance for the family would be prohibitively expensive. Her parents are uninsured since it is cheaper to just pay medical bills out of pocket.

This is the reality for I'd say...60% of Americans, especially in non-urban regions. The only reason I have health insurance is because my parents worked for the city government and I most likely will follow suit (at either the city or state level to begin with).

Urban health care is much more accessible and sometimes more affordable than rural in my opinion.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs.

Haha, have you looked around you? Unemployment currently approaching 10% (Assumed 20% for those other 10% dropped from unemployment benefits).

This means something close to 1 in 5 Americans are out of work :)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:59:07 AM by furuoshiki »
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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2009, 02:56:38 AM »
I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs.

Haha, have you looked around you? Unemployment currently approaching 10% (Assumed 20% for those other 10% dropped from unemployment benefits).

This means something close to 1 in 5 Americans are out of work :)

Even in the most prosperous times there has always been an unemployed block, it's been part of capitalism since the beginning.

Especially in the last 20 years or so most of the job creation has been part-time work, and more prevalent has been practice of taking the full-time work and reclassifying it to remove benefits while essentially maintaining the same expectations of the full-time labourer - that in part is why the average wage has depressed continuously during this period.

On a more general note, I'm increasingly perplexed by the health care reform debate going on in the States - particularly why Americans haven't choked their elected representatives to death and left them to rot on the alter as a warning to everyone - what's the point of electing either party if they're just going be blatantly bribed into doing whatever? I know I should be disillusioned at this point, but still, the discourse is so tainted a reasonable argument for or against genuine health care reform is irrelevant.
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Offline relic2279

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2009, 03:13:03 AM »
what's the point of electing either party if they're just going be blatantly bribed into doing whatever? I know I should be disillusioned at this point, but still, the discourse is so tainted a reasonable argument for or against genuine health care reform is irrelevant.

Well, at least Obama is doing what he can. He just kicked out the lobbyists off white house advisory boards, and they're pissed:
"There is fury,” said a lobbyist who sits on one of the committees. “Absolute fury.”
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000003216413




Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2009, 01:46:12 PM »
You have been lucky with jobs. Out of the last 5 years, my father has had the option of having insurance through his workplace for a total of 4 months. He got laid off from his job. He then spent a year on unemployment improving his skills and looking for another professional job. After giving up on that, he got the only job that he could, working as an orderly in a mental institution (which did not give him health insurance either). After several more months, he found a job but he was a contractor so again, no benefits. He spent 3 years working for the company with his manager constantly promising him that a permanent job offer was going to occur soon, once the group gets the product out. The product flopped, the group got disbanded, and all contracts terminated, so he was once again laid off. Finally, this August he found a permanent job with benefits.

One of my friends has to get insurance through her school because both her parents run a small business so to get insurance for the family would be prohibitively expensive. Her parents are uninsured since it is cheaper to just pay medical bills out of pocket.

This is the reality for I'd say...60% of Americans, especially in non-urban regions. The only reason I have health insurance is because my parents worked for the city government and I most likely will follow suit (at either the city or state level to begin with).

Urban health care is much more accessible and sometimes more affordable than rural in my opinion.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs.

Haha, have you looked around you? Unemployment currently approaching 10% (Assumed 20% for those other 10% dropped from unemployment benefits).

This means something close to 1 in 5 Americans are out of work :)

As I've stated on numerous occasions throughout this board, I live and work in Northern Virginia so I don't really see most of the country. Government money is floating around here (thanks for your taxes) and I have no friends or family who are currently unemployed or have been for reasons other than resignation in the past couple of years. So, looking around me doesn't do much good because I'm where the money's at.

However, what I do see around me are retail stores with job openings. I do see food joints with positions available. I do see monster.com and washingtonpost.com's job listings being added to daily. I fully understand that baby boomers are refusing to give up their positions because they either can't retire or simply don't want to. This puts a strain on generation X and a bigger one on the early Y because we went to university in DROVES compared to all previous generations. We're also the first generation to experience what is called the "Quarter Life Crisis" because of this over populated professional workforce. Kids these days get home from college and sit at home because they can't find a professional job and don't want to put a retail job on their resume as their current workplace.

This logic was sound in a stable workforce. Getting a job below your credentials wasn't something you wanted to do for your interview. However, in this workforce, it's quite the opposite. It shows an ability to do what needs to be done, regardless of the cost. We just hired a new chemist here and he stood out above the other BECAUSE he continued to work jobs that were "below" him to get bye whereas a few other candidates did not.


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Offline Nikkoru

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2009, 12:21:10 AM »
You have been lucky with jobs. Out of the last 5 years, my father has had the option of having insurance through his workplace for a total of 4 months. He got laid off from his job. He then spent a year on unemployment improving his skills and looking for another professional job. After giving up on that, he got the only job that he could, working as an orderly in a mental institution (which did not give him health insurance either). After several more months, he found a job but he was a contractor so again, no benefits. He spent 3 years working for the company with his manager constantly promising him that a permanent job offer was going to occur soon, once the group gets the product out. The product flopped, the group got disbanded, and all contracts terminated, so he was once again laid off. Finally, this August he found a permanent job with benefits.

One of my friends has to get insurance through her school because both her parents run a small business so to get insurance for the family would be prohibitively expensive. Her parents are uninsured since it is cheaper to just pay medical bills out of pocket.

This is the reality for I'd say...60% of Americans, especially in non-urban regions. The only reason I have health insurance is because my parents worked for the city government and I most likely will follow suit (at either the city or state level to begin with).

Urban health care is much more accessible and sometimes more affordable than rural in my opinion.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs.

Haha, have you looked around you? Unemployment currently approaching 10% (Assumed 20% for those other 10% dropped from unemployment benefits).

This means something close to 1 in 5 Americans are out of work :)

As I've stated on numerous occasions throughout this board, I live and work in Northern Virginia so I don't really see most of the country. Government money is floating around here (thanks for your taxes) and I have no friends or family who are currently unemployed or have been for reasons other than resignation in the past couple of years. So, looking around me doesn't do much good because I'm where the money's at.

However, what I do see around me are retail stores with job openings. I do see food joints with positions available. I do see monster.com and washingtonpost.com's job listings being added to daily. I fully understand that baby boomers are refusing to give up their positions because they either can't retire or simply don't want to. This puts a strain on generation X and a bigger one on the early Y because we went to university in DROVES compared to all previous generations. We're also the first generation to experience what is called the "Quarter Life Crisis" because of this over populated professional workforce. Kids these days get home from college and sit at home because they can't find a professional job and don't want to put a retail job on their resume as their current workplace.

This logic was sound in a stable workforce. Getting a job below your credentials wasn't something you wanted to do for your interview. However, in this workforce, it's quite the opposite. It shows an ability to do what needs to be done, regardless of the cost. We just hired a new chemist here and he stood out above the other BECAUSE he continued to work jobs that were "below" him to get bye whereas a few other candidates did not.

It's easy to argue from anecdote, the unemployment numbers - and probably more importantly underemployment numbers - are still a glaring reality for people in almost every industry. I'm from Oshawa, the home of GM in Canada, the labour market can't absorb the sudden disappearance of the auto industry, and these people aren't itching for white collar positions. They are at least secure in knowing that if they get ill at this point they aren't going to go bankrupt if they can't find work, which is probably one of the few pluses while their economic future is spinning the drain.
 
Working below your personal economic worth - combining the value of your skill set and the cost of being educated in said skill set - merely proves you're willing to be exploited, thus suppress wages for everyone as people compete for labour which once would have been in demand by employers prior to the globalized effect on the economy. Although it is undoubtedly necessary for some, which is  sad.     
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Offline Klocknov

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2009, 04:35:20 AM »
You have been lucky with jobs. Out of the last 5 years, my father has had the option of having insurance through his workplace for a total of 4 months. He got laid off from his job. He then spent a year on unemployment improving his skills and looking for another professional job. After giving up on that, he got the only job that he could, working as an orderly in a mental institution (which did not give him health insurance either). After several more months, he found a job but he was a contractor so again, no benefits. He spent 3 years working for the company with his manager constantly promising him that a permanent job offer was going to occur soon, once the group gets the product out. The product flopped, the group got disbanded, and all contracts terminated, so he was once again laid off. Finally, this August he found a permanent job with benefits.

One of my friends has to get insurance through her school because both her parents run a small business so to get insurance for the family would be prohibitively expensive. Her parents are uninsured since it is cheaper to just pay medical bills out of pocket.

This is the reality for I'd say...60% of Americans, especially in non-urban regions. The only reason I have health insurance is because my parents worked for the city government and I most likely will follow suit (at either the city or state level to begin with).

Urban health care is much more accessible and sometimes more affordable than rural in my opinion.

I honestly don't see how people don't get jobs.

Haha, have you looked around you? Unemployment currently approaching 10% (Assumed 20% for those other 10% dropped from unemployment benefits).

This means something close to 1 in 5 Americans are out of work :)

As I've stated on numerous occasions throughout this board, I live and work in Northern Virginia so I don't really see most of the country. Government money is floating around here (thanks for your taxes) and I have no friends or family who are currently unemployed or have been for reasons other than resignation in the past couple of years. So, looking around me doesn't do much good because I'm where the money's at.

However, what I do see around me are retail stores with job openings. I do see food joints with positions available. I do see monster.com and washingtonpost.com's job listings being added to daily. I fully understand that baby boomers are refusing to give up their positions because they either can't retire or simply don't want to. This puts a strain on generation X and a bigger one on the early Y because we went to university in DROVES compared to all previous generations. We're also the first generation to experience what is called the "Quarter Life Crisis" because of this over populated professional workforce. Kids these days get home from college and sit at home because they can't find a professional job and don't want to put a retail job on their resume as their current workplace.

This logic was sound in a stable workforce. Getting a job below your credentials wasn't something you wanted to do for your interview. However, in this workforce, it's quite the opposite. It shows an ability to do what needs to be done, regardless of the cost. We just hired a new chemist here and he stood out above the other BECAUSE he continued to work jobs that were "below" him to get bye whereas a few other candidates did not.
You also brought another point, due to the current generation going threw college and grabbing such low jobs the HSD and GED are becoming less and less sought after. Also jobs are looking for people with a degree in something else so they can gain money from having to train them for the current job. Now also due to manual labor becoming a mexican work force most of those jobs are requiring you to know Spanish (well at least around). So you currently have kids that are being forced to go to college or sit at home banging in applications just to try to get a job to try and go to college. Though I'm also in an area with high job demand and a low supply.
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2009, 12:17:49 PM »
It's easy to argue from anecdote, the unemployment numbers - and probably more importantly underemployment numbers - are still a glaring reality for people in almost every industry. I'm from Oshawa, the home of GM in Canada, the labour market can't absorb the sudden disappearance of the auto industry, and these people aren't itching for white collar positions. They are at least secure in knowing that if they get ill at this point they aren't going to go bankrupt if they can't find work, which is probably one of the few pluses while their economic future is spinning the drain.
 
Working below your personal economic worth - combining the value of your skill set and the cost of being educated in said skill set - merely proves you're willing to be exploited, thus suppress wages for everyone as people compete for labour which once would have been in demand by employers prior to the globalized effect on the economy. Although it is undoubtedly necessary for some, which is  sad. 

In the job market of yesteryear, I would agree with what I bolded, but not in today's job market, not at our age. Maybe for someone who has professional experience of over 5 years, not of a fresh college grad. This is coming from someone who just hired someone based on their resume and assumed work ethic. So far, we've been right. He's a good kid and he understands responsibility.

However, everyone is acting as though everywhere is hurting and only a few places aren't. I'd argue that there are some select areas, mostly places that were heavily employed by the auto industry, that are in shambles and that skews the numbers just as much as areas such as mine do. You speak of a place that was a HQ of sorts for GM. No offense, but no shit there's incredible job loss there. I have family in New Jersey and it seems middle ground. There are more unemployed people than normal but not to a horrid degree. People may go a month or so without a job but aren't staying on unemployment forever.


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Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »
LMAO@Hiring one chemist over another just because he worked at Walmart for a couple of months to pay the bills.

Work ethic has nothing to do with financial obligations. Even the laziest chump will get up off his butt if he has kids to feed and bills to pay. Motivation isn't even in that equation.

Now I am not saying you SHOULD NOT hire him BECAUSE he worked at Walmart, but that retail experience obviously has NOTHING to do with his responsibilities in a lab or other scientific research setting unless he was a manager of the store managing other people, which would indicate transferable managerial experience. (i.e. - If He was Assistant Floor Manager at Daffy's he could be considered for a position "Assistant Director of Lab 022" or something to that effect...)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 05:24:50 PM by furuoshiki »
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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2009, 05:43:45 AM »
LMAO@Hiring one chemist over another just because he worked at Walmart for a couple of months to pay the bills.

Work ethic has nothing to do with financial obligations. Even the laziest chump will get up off his butt if he has kids to feed and bills to pay. Motivation isn't even in that equation.

Now I am not saying you SHOULD NOT hire him BECAUSE he worked at Walmart, but that retail experience obviously has NOTHING to do with his responsibilities in a lab or other scientific research setting unless he was a manager of the store managing other people, which would indicate transferable managerial experience. (i.e. - If He was Assistant Floor Manager at Daffy's he could be considered for a position "Assistant Director of Lab 022" or something to that effect...)
Okay I'm glad you were trying to make a point there, but you are still a bit off. Yes an assistant manger would be nice to have since you know he has people skills and should be able to get along with the group. You also know he has a good work ethic, though sticking him as a assistant lad director would be a crazy or stupid idea due to those reasons since that would include a lot of hands on lab work. Though still the guy that worked at Wal-mart for six months to a years would be great to have too since you know he has some sort of work ethic over the kid fresh out of college. So in the long run, as long as the person has a good prior work experience and has the qualifications they will have more luck then a kid fresh out of college.
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Offline vicious796

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2009, 05:31:50 PM »
LMAO@Hiring one chemist over another just because he worked at Walmart for a couple of months to pay the bills.

Work ethic has nothing to do with financial obligations. Even the laziest chump will get up off his butt if he has kids to feed and bills to pay. Motivation isn't even in that equation.

Now I am not saying you SHOULD NOT hire him BECAUSE he worked at Walmart, but that retail experience obviously has NOTHING to do with his responsibilities in a lab or other scientific research setting unless he was a manager of the store managing other people, which would indicate transferable managerial experience. (i.e. - If He was Assistant Floor Manager at Daffy's he could be considered for a position "Assistant Director of Lab 022" or something to that effect...)

See, there's the problem, we disagree. The laziest chump doesn't get off his ass to feed his kids and pay his bills, that's where welfare lifies come from. It's not our unemployment rate was 0% before the recession. How many 20 some year olds do you know that have a sense of urgency to pay their bills? Our generation is the first generation to experience the "Quarter Life Crisis" due to competition in the workforce, as I've said before. Most kids go back home after college and chill out playing video games. This guy worked on an oil rig in California as one of his part time jobs, not just the retail.

Also, we obviously interviewed him and questioned him on his knowledge in our workfield. It's not like the ONLY reason we hired him was because he worked some part time jobs, but that's really what seperated him from other candidates that did not.


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Offline furuoshiki

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2009, 08:15:23 PM »
Sorry guys, I guess I completely forgot that we were talking about College grads.

What if we were talking about two seasoned Chemists that were simply out of work? (Let's assume both have families and hefty financial obligations).
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Offline Klocknov

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Re: Obama's Health Care Speech 9-9-9... Way to go Repubs... :\
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2009, 10:38:54 PM »
Sorry guys, I guess I completely forgot that we were talking about College grads.

What if we were talking about two seasoned Chemists that were simply out of work? (Let's assume both have families and hefty financial obligations).
Then that would be a fight for the better qualified with the more lab experience. Though the employee at Wal-mart might get an up on the other that didn't work since he still put his foot out the door to make due and tried. That is saying that the other just sat there on unemployment. But if the other still was a lot better qualified he would more then likely still get the job.
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