Author Topic: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban  (Read 2586 times)

darkjedi

  • Guest
Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« on: September 11, 2009, 09:05:35 AM »
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE5896JU20090910

One primary matter of concern is the improving effectiveness of the air defenses of countries who are considered as strategic threats to Japan, Israel, and Australia. Few examples will include Iran and China. The expected increase in the presence and proliferation of Russian SAM systems, modified or unmodified, in the air defense network of these countries makes it increasingly difficult for a traditional fighter (or bomber) to penetrate an hostile airspace. Here's a basic strategic analysis of a key Russian air defense system from some dude named Dr. Carlo Kopp:

S-300/S-400

(click to show/hide)


Dr. Carlo Kopp - He's generally ridiculed for being a borderline fanatic in his quest to empower Australia's military while giving little regard to political and economic backlashes that such quest will inevitably entail. However I've seen no one else [so far] who are as faithful as him in providing legitimate and unmolested performance data and assessments of weapons that the U.S. has every reason to underestimate and downplay to the mass public. (Don't expect him to be politically smart though  :P) Naturally he'll be the first reference choice for me when drawing a 'comprehensive' assessment of military hardware as far as armchair generals are concerned. (mostly because other alternative sources just suck at technical evaluations, or are out of reach)

His technical evaluations with which he supports his papers are constructed like this:

9S32/32M Grill Pan Fire Control Radar (it's a subsystem for an S-300 system)

(click to show/hide)

Although in many cases all those technical savvyness escapes the eyes and ears of most the civilian public and gets trampled upon by those who only cares about how much more tax and money they'll be required to pay and spend. >_>

Let's see who among you will support the exportation and the possible restart of the production of an additional batch of F-22 Raptor for the benefit of mankind. :P

Offline relic2279

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 4479
  • レーザービーム
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 09:32:37 AM »
I say sell most of our F22's... To much upkeep.

Quote from: wikipedia
In July 2009, the Air Force reported that the F-22 requires more than 30 hours of maintenance for every flight hour, at a cost of $44,000.

 :-\

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 09:44:39 AM »
So you are rooting for the exportation of the only weaponry of the U.S. which has complete superiority over any other type of opposing or similar weaponry in existence because its expensive.

You are a true civilian, relic2279.  ;)

If there was one reason why the U.S. will in the end have the hegemony in any aerial combat, it would be because of the F-22. It's the only aircraft capable operating in any airspace on the face of the Earth with absolute impunity, and here again I await Proin's next batch of Tomahawk punchbag sessions.  ;D

In my opinion such marvelous piece of equipment totally deserves to receive 30 hours of maintenance for every flight hour at a cost of $44,000. It's imperative to the U.S.'s strategic consideration that the air forces of the U.S. attains complete air superiority over any other air forces in any conventional war.

Offline relic2279

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 4479
  • レーザービーム
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 10:07:36 AM »
Meh...

The only reason I say sell them is because I'm confident that we have something better. Something classified. We always do...

Offline Proin Drakenzol

  • Member
  • Posts: 2296
  • Tiny Dragon Powers of Doom!
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 10:09:21 AM »
So you are rooting for the exportation of the only weaponry of the U.S. which has complete superiority over any other type of opposing or similar weaponry in existence because its expensive.

You are a true civilian, relic2279.  ;)

relic has a point, that's really expensive.

Quote
If there was one reason why the U.S. will in the end have the hegemony in any aerial combat, it would be because of the F-22. It's the only aircraft capable operating in any airspace on the face of the Earth with absolute impunity, and here again I await Proin's next batch of Tomahawk punchbag sessions.  ;D

It can't operate in any airspace on earth with total impunity. It doesn't have the range. The F-35C Lightning IIs will be the air superiority and attack fighter.

Never underestimate the operational freedom granted by a carrier.

Quote
In my opinion such marvelous piece of equipment totally deserves to receive 30 hours of maintenance for every flight hour at a cost of $44,000. It's imperative to the U.S.'s strategic consideration that the air forces of the U.S. attains complete air superiority over any other air forces in any conventional war.

Wow, it's really obvious you're a civilian. We (the ship I'm on) do flight ops with our helos quite often and for several hours at a time. If just those two helos required 30+ hours of maintenance and $44,000 per hour flown we'd only be able to do flight ops once a week! And that's even if the helo techs and maintenance crew don't sleep!

Now magnify that to every single F-22. It's absolutely ridiculous and a huge waste of time and money... especially for the limited "bang for our buck" granted by a air-field requiring jet.

The linear nature of your Euclidean geometry both confounds and befuddles me.

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 10:40:14 AM »
It can't operate in any airspace on earth with total impunity. It doesn't have the range. The F-35C Lightning IIs will be the air superiority and attack fighter. Never underestimate the operational freedom granted by a carrier.

Operation range does not equate to total impunity yet, does it? F-22 Raptor still has better stealth capability compared to Lightning II. Radar range equation gives an S-300 detection range of less than 20 km for F-22. I dunno for F-35 yet. The general consensus is that F-22 Raptor will be able to loiter above an airspace with a particular density of air defense assets longer than the F-35 can. In some cases, loiter time will be less important if both the F-22 and F-35 can neutralize an enemy in a negligible amount of time. For obvious reasons, when fighting against countries that has a large land area, like Russia, the 'carrier' advantage will be less useful than we'd like it to be. You'll still have many more hundreds of miles to traverse to reach a potential target even if you launch close to the coast.

For example, assuming equal speed, if an F-35 stages an attack from 1000 km away, (by the virtue of carrier support) while an F-22 stages an attack from 1500 km away, (no carrier support; fuel tanker probably) F-35's turn-around time is only 33% shorter than F-22. Can this 33% shorter turn-around time ensure that F-35 will not remain too exposed to Russia's potent air defense system while carrying on its mission? If an F-22 will be exposed to retaliation for 1 hour in this case, that means the F-35 will be exposed to retaliation for 40 minutes. Can the F-35 survive a 40 minutes of exposure better than the F-22 can survive a 1-hour exposure? That's the question we need to address.

Wow, it's really obvious you're a civilian.

Indeed. I do not, did not, and will never deny that I'm a civilian and an armchair general. I only used the phrase to distinguish him from you and AceHigh.  ;)

We (the ship I'm on) do flight ops with our helos quite often and for several hours at a time. If just those two helos required 30+ hours of maintenance and $44,000 per hour flown we'd only be able to do flight ops once a week! And that's even if the helo techs and maintenance crew don't sleep!

Now magnify that to every single F-22. It's absolutely ridiculous and a huge waste of time and money... especially for the limited "bang for our buck" granted by a air-field requiring jet.

We also need to consider how much more useful those helos will be than the F-22 when fighting against more fearsome adversaries such as Russia and China.

Politically speaking, the risk is low. China and Russia will likely not commit to a destructive conventional war with the U.S. which might require the use of truly fearsome weapons like F-35 or F-22. Likely, we'll never have to use F-22' ever in most of our life time. So the F-22 will likely be rendered more useless than the helos, which will still be used heavily against other smaller countries. That is the main reason why most of us don't think it's worth it to invest in F-22 any longer; because the risk is low from a political point of view. The political risk is also the aspect that some armchair generals like Carlo Kopp who know shit about politics fail to address. In retrospect the exportation of F-22 is even more risky from a political standpoint, because it will promote an arms race as Russia and China seeks to counteract the proliferation of F-22 in countries like Japan, Israel, and Australia.

Edit: F- numberings
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 11:46:35 AM by darkjedi »

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 10:56:25 AM »
Btw there is also the issue that the Raptors are immediately available while F-35 are not. (as of 2009) And other alternative weapon systems are not particularly viable either at the present time; are 4,000 Tomahawk missiles (extrapolated from a 3,500-missile figure from 2006) already enough to completely neutralize the Russian and Chinese military assets? Will enough of them survive the journey through an airspace defended by potent air defense systems like S-300 and FT-2000 to reach their targets? So far, we know F-22 can. The problem on the part of the F-22 might be the insufficient volume of fire, as F-22 has a longer 'attack-and-rearm duration' than F-35 or Tomahawk because they'll be launched from much farther away.

Offline vicious796

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 5392
  • Little by little I'm going crazy
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2009, 12:50:19 PM »

It can't operate in any airspace on earth with total impunity. It doesn't have the range.

Point.

Quote
The F-35C Lightning IIs will be the air superiority and attack fighter.

Set.

Quote
Never underestimate the operational freedom granted by a carrier.

Match.


It's not me - it's you.

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2009, 01:44:34 PM »
As if I ever underestimated the U.S.'s super carriers  ::)

You are looking at only one side. Consider the land-based Raptor's advantage over the carrier-launched F-35 also. It's more expensive but it's also more likely to survive a Russian airspace than the F-35 Lightning II because of Russia's strategic position. There is a reason why U.S. Air Force generals keep pushing for the mass production of the Raptors. They understand the capability of Russia and F-22/F-35 more than most of us do.

Offline Proin Drakenzol

  • Member
  • Posts: 2296
  • Tiny Dragon Powers of Doom!
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 02:01:28 PM »
As if I ever underestimated the U.S.'s super carriers  ::)

You are looking at only one side. Consider the land-based Raptor's advantage over the carrier-launched F-35 also. It's more expensive but it's also more likely to survive a Russian airspace than the F-35 Lightning II because of Russia's strategic position. There is a reason why U.S. Air Force generals keep pushing for the mass production of the Raptors. They understand the capability of Russia and F-22/F-35 more than most of us do.


That argument would hold more weight if Air Force pilots were anywhere near as good as Navy pilots.

There's a reason everyone (in the US, at least) has hear of the US Navy's Blue Angels, but how many have heard of the US Air Force's Thunderbirds?

And it's questionable as to whether the slight degradation in stealth capabilities on the Lightning IIs really makes them that much worse than the Raptors as far as survivability, especially considering the more advanced electroincs suite it'll have.

The biggest advantage the Raptors have over the Lightning IIs is speed. And given that the 'C' variant of the Lightning IIs are carrier capable... Lightning IIs are overall better from a specs standpoint.

The linear nature of your Euclidean geometry both confounds and befuddles me.

Offline sdedalus83

  • Member
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 02:18:06 PM »
Pragmatism wins in military decision making.

Fighters in general would be meaningless if the US and Russia were to go to war.
For any other conflict, carrier based fighters are far more useful than landlocked fighters.

If selling our F-22s can help fund improvements in our naval arsenal, then by all means sell them.

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 02:29:47 PM »
Dunno about whether the Blue Angels are better than Thunderbirds or if the pilot skill can really offset the superior Electronic Warfare engagement range of S-300/400 against the U.S. fighters, but I can dispute that a -30 dBsm frontal-aspect RCS of the F-35 Lightning II is more than just a 'slight' degradation in stealth capability from the F-22.

S-400's detection range against an object with 1 square meter RCS is 400 km.

400km/[(10^3)^1/4] ~ 70 km.

Raptor can escape the S-400 radar at a distance of around 40 km.

That's almost half the detection range of the F-35.

Of course if the F-35 can defeat the S-400's radar and fire control system from a range of more than 70 km, F-35 will win, if it was a one-to-one combat.

Russians know basic tactics and formations like this one:

                                                                         S

                                                     S

                                        S

                             S                                                   F
                                                                              F
                         S             T        S                      F    F
                                                                              F
                             S                                                   F   

                                        S
                                                      S
                                                                           S

Where S are the S-400 batteries and F are fighter elements and T is the expected target of the fighters

It's named wall of steel or something like that. >_> actually I forgot

They'll try to mitigate the U.S. warplane's electronic warfare capability through overlapping area of effect of their phased-array radar and locate the fighters through triangulation. If one location is disabled, another location which is still out of the fighter's EW range will still have surveillance over that area. The formation is to make it more difficult for the fighters to escape.

Offline lx4

  • Member
  • Posts: 1095
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 08:15:46 PM »
Good news for Israel, I can see them already preparing the champagne.

What'cha been playin'? - A more personal video game blog.

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 11:35:30 PM »
I wonder how many they could afford though, looking at their small total GDP size. >_>

Offline relic2279

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 4479
  • レーザービーム
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2009, 12:01:44 AM »
Buy 3 get 1 free.

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 12:38:35 AM »
That still makes it 1 billion dollars if Israel buys 7 for one squadron. They'll be losing a lot of money the next year.

So for Israel, Raptor's gone.

To Japan it still might matter. Even North Korea has enough teeth to shoot down Super Hornets. (And I personally discuss North Korean military with people who are as credible as Proin because I'm required to know them) We do not know how China will fare against the superior Lightning II. One thing is sure though, Raptor definitely freaks them out.

Then there's always the underlying question of whether the use of nukes will be unavoidable if it came to a total war between countries like Russia, China and U.S. Essentially fighters are useless in a real war that's fought with nukes, yes, and between these countries a nuclear war is far more likely than a conventional war. But then Israel, Japan, and Australia are not Russia, China, or the U.S.

So if the U.S. produce Raptor for the sake of exportation, then it's a perfectly prudent economic and military strategy. It will lessen the load on the U.S. Navy's shoulders if Israel, Japan, and Australia themselves become more powerful. But then of course U.S. shouldn't sell too much in order to maintain military balance and prevent a possible arms race.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 12:41:19 AM by darkjedi »

Offline relic2279

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 4479
  • レーザービーム
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2009, 12:45:39 AM »
We gave Israel, what, 13 billion last year? They can afford more than 7 :P

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2009, 12:47:41 AM »
those 13 billion USD will be used more for maintenance than for purchase.

Immediately they won't lose much money. But in the succeeding years they'll lose a lot.

Offline relic2279

  • Box Fansubs
  • Member
  • Posts: 4479
  • レーザービーム
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2009, 01:25:11 AM »
We give Israel that much every year :P

darkjedi

  • Guest
Re: Senate panel seeks end to F-22 export ban
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2009, 01:28:51 AM »
Lmao. Now I need source.