Author Topic: Extending school time~  (Read 8120 times)

Offline nates1984

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Extending school time~
« on: September 27, 2009, 06:31:54 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school

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The president, who has a sixth-grader and a third-grader, wants schools to add time to classes, to stay open late and to let kids in on weekends so they have a safe place to go.

Our K-12 system fails, and rather than attack the things that make it a failure, we want to just make it fail for a longer duration throughout the days and summer?

You can lock kids in our our school 24/7, 365, but if the institution sucks then it won't matter: They'll still get a shitty education.

How about increasing teacher pay to attract well-qualified people that would otherwise work in the private sector: This would bring in the best of the best, the real talent in our country, so that they could pass their skills on to future generations. How about reducing the administrative overhead so the funds can be shifted to create class sizes of 10 or less. How about lighting a fire under parents asses so they contribute.

Jesus fucking christ, it's going from a day care, to a 24/7 daycare.

Once again, the old American mantra: If it's broke, throw money at it until we all feel better.

Offline relic2279

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2009, 07:05:41 PM »
Class sizes of 10 or less and teacher pay will not guarantee improvement in education. Japan has a very excellent education system in terms of results, have medium sized classes and teachers aren't payed much at the high school level. 20-30k range. They have very few breaks in their school year, and go to school on Saturdays. They aren't really taught at a faster rate than their US counterparts. They're just taught "more". Because there is more time to teach them.

As far as administrative overhead goes, that's probably the only thing different than US school systems. At the high school level, they aren't required to attend school. (age 15 or 16? Correct me if I'm wrong) And they have to pay quite a bit to attend high school. Probably between 4-8k per year depending on the prestige of the school. But high school is not required. So the draw back is that it's a little more privatized. But that doesn't detract from the fact that more time in school = results. It gives kids more of an opportunity to learn. Reducing overhead and trying to pay more qualified teachers will not give them the same opportunity. It wouldn't hurt though, probably something that should be done after the fact. Lets just get kids in school first. Teachers will be paid a little more as a result anyhow as it extends the time they are teaching class.


Offline nates1984

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2009, 07:27:31 PM »
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Class sizes of 10 or less and teacher pay will not guarantee improvement in education.

Yes it will: More personalized teacher-student relationships would allow the teacher to isolate and identify a student's weaknesses and create personalized lesson plans to remove their deficiencies. It would also allow the teacher to create more advanced lesson plans for the bright students who are bored out of their fucking minds. The bright move ahead, and the average and below-average work on weak spots, but everyone is challenged and pushed to achieve their maximum intellectual capacity. That should be the purpose of education, not a grade or admission to a college or some useless piece of paper called a degree.

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Japan has a very excellent education system in terms of results, have medium sized classes and teachers aren't payed much at the high school level. 20-30k range. They have very few breaks in their school year, and go to school on Saturdays. They aren't really taught at a faster rate than their US counterparts. They're just taught "more". Because there is more time to teach them.

It's hard to compare America to Japan, we're two totally different cultures.

We can't just expect to copy another country and get similar results. My solutions were based on American culture, the way we think, and our attitudes about things. What Japan does is irrelevant. Your point is disqualified.

Besides, if you would have read the fucking article, you would know American students spend more hours a year in a classroom than their Asian counterparts.

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But that doesn't detract from the fact that more time in school = results

Quality over quantity. You make Y amount of butter churning it the old fashioned way. Sure, increasing time T will increase the amount of butter you can churn; ie f(T)=KT; but no matter how much you increase T you will never match the capabilities of a modern manufacturing plant.

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Reducing overhead and trying to pay more qualified teachers will not give them the same opportunity.

You're right, it will give them more opportunities. You underestimate the power of a good teacher.

Offline relic2279

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2009, 11:04:00 PM »
Yes it will: More personalized teacher-student relationships would allow the teacher to isolate and identify a student's weaknesses and create personalized lesson plans to remove their deficiencies.

In a perfect world, that'd be nice. In my average size suburb where just our middle/high school has a couple thousand kids, do you realize how many teachers that is? It's a bit unrealistic.


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Besides, if you would have read the fucking article, you would know American students spend more hours a year in a classroom than their Asian counterparts.
And as I said, kid aren't required to go to school in Japan after a certain age. The article provides no context/source to their claim of their facts. For instance, Japan has school on Saturday. Yet, there is only a difference of instructional 100 hours. Combined that with the longer school year, and the math doesn't add up.


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but no matter how much you increase T you will never match the capabilities of a modern manufacturing plant.
Kids aren't products to be churned out :P  As you said earlier, each kid has their own weaknesses.

Offline fohfoh

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2009, 04:11:05 AM »
You realize that the opposite occurs in smaller class sizes. Teachers play favourites, and neglect the weaker ones because it's more of a hassle. Sure, in a perfect world, it'd be nice if ALL teachers help the ones who need it most, but seriously. It really doesn't happen very often. Kids can go to school for many years and be neglected all the way. It's usually about 1/6 or 1/8 of the years in school that they run into a teacher who actually tries to help the weaker students.
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Offline nates1984

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2009, 07:49:46 AM »
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In a perfect world, that'd be nice. In my average size suburb where just our middle/high school has a couple thousand kids, do you realize how many teachers that is? It's a bit unrealistic.

With the system as is, maybe, but you have to be analytical and creative to solve this sort of a problem. Like most Americans, you just don't seem that interested in perusing those thought processes to come up with solutions. Here's one: Using one teacher for two classrooms. Each class is four hours a day, for a total of eight working hours for the teacher. That was off the top of my head.
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And as I said, kid aren't required to go to school in Japan after a certain age. The article provides no context/source to their claim of their facts. For instance, Japan has school on Saturday. Yet, there is only a difference of instructional 100 hours. Combined that with the longer school year, and the math doesn't add up.

Offer up a source proving the article wrong. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

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You realize that the opposite occurs in smaller class sizes. Teachers play favourites, and neglect the weaker ones because it's more of a hassle. Sure, in a perfect world, it'd be nice if ALL teachers help the ones who need it most, but seriously. It really doesn't happen very often. Kids can go to school for many years and be neglected all the way. It's usually about 1/6 or 1/8 of the years in school that they run into a teacher who actually tries to help the weaker students.

You do realize that right now a majority of teachers in America come from the bottom of the barrel because anyone worth their salt is going directly to the private sector after graduation, right? Step one is paying teachers more so the job attracts genuine talent. If you don't so that, then you're right: Smaller classes do no good.

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2009, 07:57:45 AM »

Yes it will: More personalized teacher-student relationships would allow the teacher to isolate and identify a student's weaknesses and create personalized lesson plans to remove their deficiencies. It would also allow the teacher to create more advanced lesson plans for the bright students who are bored out of their fucking minds. The bright move ahead, and the average and below-average work on weak spots, but everyone is challenged and pushed to achieve their maximum intellectual capacity. That should be the purpose of education, not a grade or admission to a college or some useless piece of paper called a degree.

I see 3 flaws in this statement of yours.
1. Teachers will go after favorites and work with the people who already got most of the subjects down and the ones with weakness will usually get ignored regardless of how much they get paid. All the teachers will think is they learned the material and thats good enough. Like Foh has said its pretty rare to see teachers who actually cares for the student.
2. You do realize even with how your idea will work out about smarter students moving ahead and getting challenge and stuff that over 50-80% of students would rather take easier work. They just wanna know they are at grade level work thats it. A lot of students dumb their selves down to make sure they don't get more difficult work. Almost all of my high school that I went to was exactly like that.
3. Most students don't wanna challenge and push their limits..... What they want is to get the fuck out of the school already. So placing them into school for a longer period will make sure they hear the information they need to learn and understand they need to be there.
Yes its about education and not about anything else like a paper that says you graduated, but with all honesty how much of this is logical and would actually happen when you think about people's actual attitude towards things and what they wanna do.

Also working in groups or good size class allows students to understand and learn from other students and see methods and ideas for them to understand the work.

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It's hard to compare America to Japan, we're two totally different cultures.

We can't just expect to copy another country and get similar results. My solutions were based on American culture, the way we think, and our attitudes about things. What Japan does is irrelevant. Your point is disqualified.

Besides, if you would have read the fucking article, you would know American students spend more hours a year in a classroom than their Asian counterparts.

We might be 2 different cultures, but still humans. We still have similar thoughts and attitudes towards things. A lot of the learning methods are very much alike and the information is a lot alike. Looking at how other people run and teach is how we learn also and make our own methods of teaching and look at what is more effective. So what relic did say is quite relevant and is a great way to look at this.

Also you do realize articles doesn't give enough information and only gives enough to prove their views only? Instead of focusing on an article why not educate yourself with actual facts and information from other sources also to make a better picture in your head for yourself.

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Quality over quantity. You make Y amount of butter churning it the old fashioned way. Sure, increasing time T will increase the amount of butter you can churn; ie f(T)=KT; but no matter how much you increase T you will never match the capabilities of a modern manufacturing plant.

So with your statement of quality over quantity. You're saying a student who gets better information and how they are taught would be better, but what good is information if you don't get time to understand it fully, what good is it if the teacher doesn't get more time with the students to understand the students more, and see the students mistakes and show them where they messed up. Also students are already being taught well with great amount of information and teachers working with their students a lot.
Me as a student who hasn't been gone from school not that long ago. I know I learned more from my classmates than the teacher because of 1 factor group work and sharing how we got to the answer. With more classmates the chance of this is greater and will allow the other students see where they could improve. After that the students can ask the teacher where they messed up at and ask for the teach to explain what happened. This brings it back to the whole thing about smaller classes.
We are in school to learn not just from the teacher, but also from one another. Quality is good and well, but if there is no time with it all. Its no better than not even learning the work. A lot of students needs more time with the work from what I have seen. A lot of students don't study outside of school and having more time in school will make sure they are learning.

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You're right, it will give them more opportunities. You underestimate the power of a good teacher.

You're overestimating your ideas. What good is power of a good teacher without time to understand the students more. Some students need more time with the teachers than others, but don't always get that time. Regardless of how good the teacher is if there isn't enough time what good can a good teacher do. Yes if a good teacher in a smaller class can focus on each student more, but you're forgetting each student learns and takes in information differently which causes less time for others.

This world is imperfect and no matter how good a teacher is or how small a class can get. There will always something that goes against it.
Smaller class, huge amount of students=lack of "good" teachers
Good teacher, a lot of students who need a big amount of attention=not enough time

Also something I forgot to say. A good middle size class with a decent teacher allows other students to help students who don't fully understand the material and allows the teacher to work with other students also. So a smaller class won't do much, but slow down the class a bit more and burn more time so less time with students would be placed into effect.
With more time not only does the teacher get more time with the students, but other students can help each other more AND get help from the teacher after that. It brings in more time for studying, understanding, gaining help, and even socializing which is a big thing we need in the future.


So with what I said I think having more time in school is a smart way to have more effective learning.
Also sorry if my grammar sucks and stuff I have never been too bright in that area =X.


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How about increasing teacher pay to attract well-qualified people that would otherwise work in the private sector

I'm sorry, but this statement is so false it ain't even funny. Increasing pay won't do nothing, but attract more greedy teachers who are there for the money not helping the students..... Another thing the teachers who actually stay are the ones who actually care for the students and actually wants to be there to TEACH not for the money. Unless those teachers are having hard time making money and thats the only way they can.
Well-qualified people? I think you are really not looking at the big picture of the school system. If they aren't well qualified as you say they wouldn't of gotten the job in the first place. The school system just doesn't take whoever into the system. They actually want their students to achieve and gain something out of all this. Its not the teachers fault they lack TIME with their students to help them become smarter.....
Increasing someone's pay or offering someone a bigger pay won't do anything for the students only the teachers. The teachers will look at the money and teach just enough like they always do. While there are teachers who were already there even with their pay cut and stuff that does the same or more since they are actually there to TEACH something more.

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With the system as is, maybe, but you have to be analytical and creative to solve this sort of a problem. Like most Americans, you just don't seem that interested in perusing those thought processes to come up with solutions. Here's one: Using one teacher for two classrooms. Each class is four hours a day, for a total of eight working hours for the teacher. That was off the top of my head.

I do agree they do need to think of more ideas, but its not the teachers its the students thats the problem.... If students get more time to understand and actually study they wouldn't have problems. So the idea of adding more time to school was thought of.
Having 1 teacher teach 2classes? Do you know how much work that is? And how much time you remove from other subjects? That wouldn't work out as well as you thought. 8hrs of the day when you can have more teachers teach more subjects in the same amount of time. In the end with this idea of yours would you be forced to have more than 24hrs of school just for one class.


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Offer up a source proving the article wrong. Otherwise you're just talking out your ass.

Prove your article is fully true with actual content/facts? Relic has already said "The article provides no context/source to their claim of their facts."
We can go on with this all day if you are going to be asking this.


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You do realize that right now a majority of teachers in America come from the bottom of the barrel because anyone worth their salt is going directly to the private sector after graduation, right? Step one is paying teachers more so the job attracts genuine talent. If you don't so that, then you're right: Smaller classes do no good.

Paying more will mean you have to reduce the amount of teachers also. Most teachers who are in America who still have their job right now are teachers who CARE and actually are there to teach..... Like I said pay don't do nothing, but bring in greedy teachers who want the money not to be there to actually teach. They aren't from the bottom of the barrel just because you say they are or other people say they are. If they were they would lose their jobs especially with how strict education is. Also with our economy where is this money we are going to be paying the teachers with? All that would do is raise taxes more and you would still have the same problems as you started since most of the teachers will be the ones who are greedy for the big pay not really educating the students.

Like I said it ain't the teachers its the students. A lot of students lack time to understand and study and get to know their work. A lot of students don't use their time outside of school for education. A lot of students are lazy to do their work. If you added more time into school it makes sure they are using time to study and learn. Also gives time for them to understand it. Most students just needs more help thats it. Has nothing to do with the way teachers teach or else you would of seen a lot of students failing and flunking more than they should be.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 08:23:32 AM by XinWind »

darkjedi

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2009, 02:15:07 PM »
How long do Americans stay in their school?

I think Philippines has 44 hours each week, which I assume is the same as America's. Korea has 48 hours. But seriously, before the new Korean president implemented a new curfew hour policy, Korean high school students stayed out of home from 6 am until 12 am. All for studying. I think Asians stay in school/semi-school for longer than Americans do in general.

Ok, now I find it kinda hard to believe that Singaporeans stay in school only 5 hours a day @_@
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 02:33:40 PM by darkjedi »

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2009, 02:36:13 PM »
How long do Americans stay in their school?

I think Philippines has 44 hours each week, which I assume is the same as America's. Korea has 48 hours. But seriously, before the new Korean president implemented a new curfew hour policy, Korean high school students stayed out of home from 6 am until 12 am. All for studying. I think Asians stay in school/semi-school for longer than Americans do in general.

From how my school time was it was from 7am-2:30pm every day from monday-friday. So thats about 7 and a half hrs a day. So around 37 and a half hrs a week.
So comparing to how much time we spend in school comparing to how much Asians stay in school is pretty different. Thats without adding the fact that most American students until around junior year in high school don't study too much and just do only what is required nothing more.
Like you stated Korean high school students take over 6hrs to just study outside of school comparing that to the amount of time most American students place into studying is a HUGE difference in the long run.

Not only do we spend less time in school. Most American students don't spend enough time studying. So like I said before, having more time added into school time is a great idea. It makes sure the student's time is spent more wisely, the students get more time to understand the material more, and they get more help where they need it.

darkjedi

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2009, 02:37:56 PM »
So thats about 7 and a half hrs a day. So around 37 and a half hrs a week.

Wtf.

Ok, I think I'll have to attribute religion to this discrepancy in school hours... (just my thing)


Btw, that 7 and a half hours a day is not the instructional hour. And don't you go to school during Saturdays?

Oh and how long ago was your high school days?


Removing non-instructional hours:

Philippines has 38 hours, which is consistent with the U.S.'s. Korea has 44 hrs.

Well, whatever xD
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 02:42:22 PM by darkjedi »

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2009, 02:43:43 PM »
So thats about 7 and a half hrs a day. So around 37 and a half hrs a week.

Wtf.

Ok, I think I'll have to attribute religion to this discrepancy in school hours... (just my thing)


Btw, that 7 and a half hours a day is not the instructional hour. And don't you go to school during Saturdays?

Oh and how long ago was your high school days?

For me we have summer vacation for 3months the reason of the time its school days. So 9months of school not including the holidays or breaks we get. Also we don't have saturday school unless a teacher assigns it to you because of low grades or you caused trouble.

darkjedi

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2009, 02:44:44 PM »
Hm, but how do they add up to 1100+ hours of school annually lol if you stay only 7 and a half hours a day in school at maximum >_<

Calculator says 7.5 hours mean 1350 hours of school a year. Um... that's already a lot.

Can you tell the official instructional hours?



And what's funny is that the calculator says I spend 1527 hours a year in school >_> (instructional hours, yes) and I'm pretty sure that amount of school hours is not helpful at all.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 02:50:30 PM by darkjedi »

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 02:54:15 PM »
Hm, but how do they add up to 1100+ hours of school annually lol if you stay only 7 and a half hours a day in school at maximum >_<

Calculator says 7.5 hours mean 1350 hours of school a year. Um... that's already a lot.

Can you tell the official instructional hours?



And what's funny is that the calculator says I spend 1527 hours a year in school >_> (instructional hours, yes) and I'm pretty sure that amount of school hours is not helpful at all.

If you mean actual time in class. Each class is 45mins long there is 6classes 10-15mins between each class and an hr worth of lunchtime. So its its actually a lot less than 7 and a half hrs o.O.
50mins is used up between classes
1hr is used up for lunchtime

So total time spent would be 5hrs 40mins in each day in class.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2009, 02:56:44 PM by XinWind »

darkjedi

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2009, 02:57:21 PM »
Mm, yeah, I think it should be less than 7 and a half hours because otherwise the quoted '1146' school hour will be inconsistent.

I think you should just cut down on the 10~15 min break between each class and add them to the instructional hour instead, so that it will be 55~60 min per session instead of 45 min and the students can still go home at the same time. (6 classes means at least an hour more of instruction per day)

Oh well, I'm a nobody lol xDD

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2009, 03:03:14 PM »
Whats funny is the first 10mins of all classes when I was in school was to mess with the students who came in late o.O So you can pretty much reduce another 60mins lol xD

Offline Talapus

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2009, 03:36:48 PM »
My highschool was four 90 minute classes per quarter. 5 days a week, ~9 months. During the summer, I often took university classes (180 minute classes, 5 days a week  :'().

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2009, 03:45:26 PM »
My highschool was four 90 minute classes per quarter. 5 days a week, ~9 months. During the summer, I often took university classes (180 minute classes, 5 days a week  :'().

Four 90min classes per quarter?! Um there is 4quarters in a school year so you spent 1440mins(24hrs) only in a year of school? o.O
Or do you mean that four 90min classes per day?

Offline Talapus

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2009, 03:53:40 PM »
My highschool was four 90 minute classes per quarter. 5 days a week, ~9 months. During the summer, I often took university classes (180 minute classes, 5 days a week  :'().

Four 90min classes per quarter?! Um there is 4quarters in a school year so you spent 1440mins(24hrs) only in a year of school? o.O
Or do you mean that four 90min classes per day?

Four classes each and every day. Classes ending on the quarter. I phrased it that way because many other schools in the area had eight 90 minute classes that they switched between every other day (A/B schedule) that ended on the semester.

Offline Sosseres

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2009, 03:59:20 PM »
Saturday/Sunday is a free day in most western societies for everybody (excluding those working weekends, special shift forms or overtime). This includes students, who still do homework on these days since they don't want to do them all on the school days but spread them out a bit more.

Offline XinWind

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Re: Extending school time~
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2009, 04:09:36 PM »
My highschool was four 90 minute classes per quarter. 5 days a week, ~9 months. During the summer, I often took university classes (180 minute classes, 5 days a week  :'().

Four 90min classes per quarter?! Um there is 4quarters in a school year so you spent 1440mins(24hrs) only in a year of school? o.O
Or do you mean that four 90min classes per day?

Four classes each and every day. Classes ending on the quarter. I phrased it that way because many other schools in the area had eight 90 minute classes that they switched between every other day (A/B schedule) that ended on the semester.

Oh I get it now lol. Sorry.
So you spent 6hrs a day in school or around there. About 30hrs in a week.
And in the summer you spend 15hrs a week. Right? o.o