Extending school time~

[darkjedi]

DarkJedi - that's just for unenlightened races like Iran

fyi, Iran has no corporal punishment, while countries like Korea, Singapore and Japan do. They coincidentally happen to be the top achievers in education assessments also. Can we make a correlation?

[molbjerg]

No.

Korea, Japan and Singapore are a bunch of fucking nutters who have an entirely different life attitude. You cannot make a correlation based on one minor difference that you like the sound of.

[Talapus]

Only if you use a very abbreviated data set.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

[darkjedi]

hm, but I think corporal punishments help keep students from being an ass on purpose lol

And that's already a forgone conclusion.

[molbjerg]

Does capital punishment prevent murder?

UK has none, and has a minor murder rate compared to the USA which does... Unreasonable punishment does not confront ill behaviour to the extent you believe it does.

[relic2279]

I think a lot of you guys are talking crap, I don't care what studies you look at, a teacher in charge of 15 students instead of 30 can do a far better job.

Here in the states, having smaller classrooms while nice, is still unrealistic. I can't find the numbers off hand, but figure out how many children there are, and divide it by 10. That is a helluva lot of teachers. Then you have to pay those teachers. Since while most schools do receive federal funding, teachers are usually paid by the local city school district. It would place huge burdens on already bankrupt urban school districts coffers, likely collapsing them all together. So how do we pay for them? Tax the crap out of everyone? It's just to unrealistic right now. If someone wants smaller class sizes, they have the option to pay for it via private schools. Which is exactly what you are paying for. Smaller class sizes and the teachers to go with them.

I'm with you on the keeping the hooligans in school though.

while countries like Korea, Singapore and Japan do.

Japan outlawed corporal punishment in schools:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

[darkjedi]

Does capital punishment prevent murder?

Man, that's a very good way of making this discussion more complicated than it's supposed to be. Seriously.

Unreasonable punishment does not confront ill behaviour to the extent you believe it does.

Corporal punishments are unreasonable from one perspective. Corporal punishment is also effective in that it incites an immediate response from the person being punished. The usual 'if I don't want to feel pain, I shouldn't do this' survival instinct is enough to reduce the frequency of disorderly acts. All you need to do to avoid physical pain is not doing something wrong. And we make the students know that. Simple.

[molbjerg]

If it was such a good and obviously correct way to do things, do you think the whole civilised world would be dismissing your opinion?

Surely if it was that great, we wouldn't all have done it in the past, then re-evaluated our ways.

Corporal punishments are unreasonable from many perspectives. Not yours perhaps, but most.

[darkjedi]

I'm an advocate of reward over punishment when it comes to indoctrinating children. I'm defending corporal punishment because there is a certain benefit to be had from it, not because I approve of it. (which means I'm doing objective > subjective) Something that is very sure in every empirical assessment of corporal punishment is that corporal punishment does reduce wrong-doing in school and promote adherence to school authorities, and I'm looking at the issue with that particular benefit in mind.  I can propose and defend a 'reward system' also, but I choose not to.

[Talapus]

You can't just look at the benefits without taking into consideration the negative effects that come with them.

If schools were to kill students that misbehave or have poor performance, I would expect that students would perform even better than when corporal punishment is used (and the average performance would certainly improve). That doesn't mean that anyone would try to support such a teaching methodology, even though it is just the logical extension of corporal punishment.

[molbjerg]

You can't just look at the benefits without taking into consideration the negative effects that come with them.

Indeed. Noticed how parents who are frequently beaten by their parents are arseholes and bullies?

[darkjedi]

You can't just look at the benefits without taking into consideration the negative effects that come with them.

I look at the benefits and take the negative into considerations too, but I was waiting for you to point them out.   Otherwise there's no point in me discussing it here lol

If schools were to kill students that misbehave or have poor performance, I would expect that students would perform even better than when corporal punishment is used (and the average performance would certainly improve). That doesn't mean that anyone would try to support such a teaching methodology, even though it is just the logical extension of corporal punishment.

This still doesn't disprove the effectiveness of corporal punishment, though. You need to focus more on proving how corporal punishment is ineffective rather than giving obscure theoretical counter-examples.

Is corporal punishment effective or ineffective? Does the benefit of corporal punishment justify the means? What is the significance of corporal punishments, e.g. how do they contribute to the society? How do they detract from the society? These are the questions you need to tackle.



Btw killing students is not good even from a utilitarian point of view because that means less people who could potentially become productive if only they were fostered the right way. It's waste of talents.

[molbjerg]

Personally I think life's a bit too short to argue with someone who knows they're wrong on the internet, if you'd have caught me 5 years ago maybe I'd be more game.

I suggest you read up on psychological studies to better educate yourself about the ramifications etc. Rather than getting me to google it and quote things at you.

[darkjedi]

That's no fun.  



Btw just reading psychological studies are not enough. To gain real practical knowledge you have to experience it yourself. I know the ramification of corporal punishment, and I know the positive and negative effects it had in me.

[Talapus]

Btw just reading psychological studies are not enough. To gain real practical knowledge you have to experience it yourself. I know the ramification of corporal punishment, and I know the positive and negative effects it had in me.

Weren't you the one saying that "objective > subjective"? 

[darkjedi]

Yeah. And that's why I'm not using my personal experience here. But I do use them as a buffer when I analyze corporal punishment from a general perspective, because that's a standard procedure in any research. Called 'case study' or something. And now I'm being watered down by my inability to express my ideas thoroughly in a foreign language.  


What I means is, I know corporal punishment personally, but I'm not saying it. Everything I've told you are 'forgone conclusions'; they are all that has been concluded before after many generations of research, and I trust these researches because they are consistent with my own experience. That's how my experience serves as a buffer to me.

[fohfoh]

Corporal punishment is good for reducing prison overcrowding and in the long run, cheaper than keeping an inmate for life.

But this is WAY off topic.

Correlation does not equal causation, so Jedi, stfu and get back on topic.

[darkjedi]

I'm concluding that merely extending the school hour is not going to help improve the quality of instruction in America. Something more substantial is needed. I'm trying to look for alternatives. Some others are going for increased pay and less student per teachers; I'm going for the teaching method.

And did you know that corporal punishment is already a causal explanation for Korean's impetus studying habit, as compared to their American counterparts? You don't even need to correlate anymore. It's already proven. The thing is that corporal punishment has its drawbacks too. And the drawbacks is for you to point out; and I hope it's something that I don't know about yet.


And don't just shove in words like these lol:

Corporal punishment is good for reducing prison overcrowding and in the long run, cheaper than keeping an inmate for life.

Prove it.

On second thought, never mind. We might get punched for this. >_>

[furuoshiki]

Here in NYC some district High Schools are overpopulated so school times have been truncated to compensate for the breadth of children that need to be serviced.

As a result I see children in the street at all times of the day, and they are happy because they no longer have to sit in a classroom all day and do absolutely nothing.

Thanks overcrowding!

[LordRhino]

AP/College level courses keep me busy enough in HS. Lengthening the school day will not make the dickwads who fuck around all day any smarter. It's a useless move, and a lazy move.