Extending school time~

[nates1984]

The neocon wingnut of bakabt.

I must be a neocon. I mean, I believe in gay marriage, legalized marijuana, am generally against big business, am for welfare programs (when ran correctly), am for socialized medicine and free education (also when ran correctly), and am pro-choice.

God, I'm such a raging neocon! This isn't the first time I've pointed this out to you relic.

He's quite an effective troll because he actually believes what he types is true.

I'm trollish only because of the rampant stupidity and ignorance I see in so many points, and thus my responses contains often high amounts of frustration because deep down I know a lot of you are Americans as well. You should be smarter than you are. Most of you regurgitate bullshit opinions I hear in the mainstream news, and then can do no more than simply repeat yourselves or introduce some sort of convoluted logic to prove your points.

Alright, so what's Nate1984's proposal on revitalizing American education?

The first post.

The fact remains that Nate could never be nor will be an administrator of education in any capacity.

Depends on how long I spend in the private sector. If I go into education at an early enough age there is no reason I couldn't climb to a position where I could make a difference, even if said difference is only local.

[darkjedi]

And you still want the shit teachers to have more control over their students, and make them even shittier. LOL

[nates1984]

No, I want to hire better teachers, then give them more control.

[morrefule]

No, I want to hire better teachers, then give them more control.

Answer - get ride of teacher unions and reward teachers based on merit and performance.

[darkjedi]

^^Meh, you want to start it by throwing in more money ~_~

Your idea is ok. But your means isn't good.

Increasing the pay will also attract the not-so-good teachers on top of the good teachers. In the end, their proportion will remain the same. It might work, but it might not either, and in that time you waste money.

[Klocknov]

darkjedi, saying if you eat more you won't get fuller then if you eat less. Higher pay means a more attractive measure for teachers of a more qualified status, which last I checked means a better education. Yeah you will get the greedy bastards in there, but how long do you think they will last? I wouldn't foresee them lasting more then a year at most. Schools would want to be paying the teacher to do what they have them their for, so if you raise the pay I'm pretty sure you would have a much better looking core of teachers. I can count how many good teacher I had on one hand, if I add mediocre then I hit two. Out of twenty-six teachers I had five good ones and three mediocre. Those numbers don't look too great even with adding in the mediocre, so you think better pay wouldn't increase those figures?

[darkjedi]

so you think better pay wouldn't increase those figures?

I cannot conclusively say it will.

I'm just more concerned about the 'what if it fails' scenario.

On the other hand no other ideas seem to give a clear benefit either.

That of course doesn't mean we have to rabidly pursue these ideas as if they are the completely right ones. 

[Klocknov]

That is the thing, to find the right idea is a lot of work and many ideas being put threw.

[nates1984]

Answer - get ride of teacher unions and reward teachers based on merit and performance.

Typically I defend unions (because I'm such a neocon, right relic?), like in the case of the car industry. However, I will agree with you on education. Teaching is not a mindless job like you might find in a typical factory or manufacturing setting. There are certain sectors of the economy I think would work better without unions, and education is definitely one of them.

You don't even need to get rid of the union, just tenure would be a good start. Tenure allows shit teachers to keep their jobs. Raising teacher pay to attract more qualified prospects would pretty much require an end to tenure.

More qualified teachers, I think, would help other problem areas of the education sector. Once you fill a large percentage of an industries workforce with intelligent and dedicated individuals they start having an effect outside their job descriptions.

If a highly intelligent person gives a suggestion about administrative concerns, it'll get more weight than an idiot person saying it. If teachers are intelligent they will receive more respect from the average parent, so that when the teacher says "You need to invest more time with your child at home with his schoolwork," then maybe it would be listened to a bit more seriously. Maybe, with intelligent teachers, students would also respect teachers more.

Paying teachers more could have a ripple effect. Even if it doesn't fix other problems it would help to create an environment when the necessary changes are more easily considered.

[Klocknov]

@nates1984, I also think if the teachers that actually taught the kids on a daily basis were the ones talking to the parents instead of a teacher you see once a month you might have a better chance of the parents listening.

[relic2279]

(because I'm such a neocon, right relic?),

What are your opinions of Net Neutrality, Public option health care, religion in schools and gov't, gun laws, big-stick foreign policy, and taxes rolled back to pre-reagan levels for the rich to fight our deficit?

Those are the primary neocon issues in my opinion, and you've spoken your opinion on most of those.

[nates1984]

What are your opinions of Net Neutrality,

No taxes on purchases over the internet, no censorship, and most importantly: Fuck Comcast.

Public option health care,

Better than what we currently have, but government intervention is no long term solution. The question is: What can we do to the markets so that it fixes healthcare itself, and thus no need for tax money to do it.

religion in schools and gov't

I'm for separation of church and state.

, gun laws

Don't give a shit really. Although, it is the illegal guns I'm most concerned with, not so much the legal ones. If the argument is that the illegal guns exist because they are sold, at one point, legally, then I must counter that even if they were all illegal they'd still be here. Marijuana and other illegal drugs are testament to that.

Gun laws are a consequence of crime. I'm inclined to ask why there is crime; gun laws are irrelevant, just another thing for you sheeple to argue about.

, big-stick foreign policy

The stick is expensive, and I'd rather not pay the taxes to buy it.

, and taxes rolled back to pre-reagan levels for the rich to fight our deficit?

Income tax shouldn't exist for anyone. The fact it does proves that the government is too big. Again, as with gun laws, you miss the subtle, but larger and more important, issue.

Those are the primary neocon issues in my opinion, and you've spoken your opinion on most of those.

Now, perhaps, but you have yet to hear even a sliver of my thoughts on these issues. Reducing it to sound bytes is hard to do, but that's the only way I can communicate with you people. You aren't careful readers, and certainly not careful writers. I adapt to my environment, but the subtleties and complexities of an issue do not exist within a sound byte. I've tried to create situations where the conversation brings these things to the surface, but the form of reckless debate I see on every single forum makes it incredibly difficult to steer a conversation to those waters.

[relic2279]

Well, nate1984, then maybe I was wrong about you. Those are some pretty liberal/left leaning views. (Liberal in the states, moderate/conservative-ish in the rest of the world)

However,

The question is: What can we do to the markets so that it fixes healthcare itself, and thus no need for tax money to do it.

Great, you should be for the public option then since it's completely budget neutral. No new taxes required. At least the plan being proposed is. Not only that, we could enact efficiency plans to further reduce costs, perhaps have a surplus like with medicare and social security when they first started.

Income tax shouldn't exist for anyone. The fact it does proves that the government is too big. Again, as with gun laws, you miss the subtle, but larger and more important, issue.

Almost every country in the world pays income taxes. Taxes exist to pay for everything from your roads, to your mail, to the EPA which monitors the content of the food and water you drink, and much, much more. Privatizing those services would be a complete disaster.

$2 billion a week of your tax money was/is being spent on the war in Iraq. Why do these people who are so anti democrat, anti liberal support the war so much? I don't understand it. They go around raging about taxes and form these moronic teabag parties complaining about socialized medicine. Even though a public option is completely budget neutral, complete all out universal health care would be a literally be less than a drop in the bucket compared to the taxes their paying on republican sponsored taxes and programs. Not to mention, 99.9 percent of them would benefit from such a plan.


Edit: above i said EPA, I meant FDA

[furuoshiki]

Now, perhaps, but you have yet to hear even a sliver of my thoughts on these issues. Reducing it to sound bytes is hard to do, but that's the only way I can communicate with you people. You aren't careful readers, and certainly not careful writers. I adapt to my environment, but the subtleties and complexities of an issue do not exist within a sound byte. I've tried to create situations where the conversation brings these things to the surface, but the form of reckless debate I see on every single forum makes it incredibly difficult to steer a conversation to those waters.

The majority of jobs force you to condense yourself effectively into sound bytes. A Resume/CV and Cover letter are sound bytes. In the age of technology there is no room for full expression unless you are an artist, musician or peanut vendor. And no one will listen to you unless you sell your ideas in a clear, concise, simple and condensed package.

You may ask " What about cultural nuances and contextual subtlety" ?

The answer is...How much do anthropologists get paid?

Non-existent and Nothing.

[Nikkoru]

It'd be interesting to meet an anthropologist who got into it for the money.

Maybe you can be the corrupt treasure hunter from one of the Indiana Jones films?

[nates1984]

The majority of jobs force you to condense yourself effectively into sound bytes. A Resume/CV and Cover letter are sound bytes. In the age of technology there is no room for full expression unless you are an artist, musician or peanut vendor. And no one will listen to you unless you sell your ideas in a clear, concise, simple and condensed package.

While true, I'm more interested in hearing your reasoning as to why it's a good thing.

[darkjedi]

Information:

If we reduce the number of students to 10 per class and increase teachers' pay by 20%, America would be spending 300~330 billion USD more for education each year.

That'll become around 1.3 trillion USD of budget in total.

Hm, too expensive?

[relic2279]

If we reduce the number of students to 10 per class and increase teachers' pay by 20%, America would be spending 300~330 billion USD more for education each year.

That'll become around 1.3 trillion USD of budget in total.

Hm, too expensive?

That's my problem. Upping pay and lessening classes sizes is completely unrealistic and naive. The world isn't rainbows and gumdrops. It just doesn't work that way. It sounds harsh, but start with forcing kids to learn more. Best way to do that is either by lessen their breaks, or spread out the breaks so they aren't sitting out of school for 2 1/2 months at a time like someone before me suggested.

[darkjedi]

I don't advocate 'corporal punishment' in particular, but I think ramping up disciplinary measures to make the students study seems good also.

[Klocknov]

One thing they could start with is more in school suspension(ISS) rather then kicking kids out for days or weeks. ISS sticks the kid in school so he still has his school work to do, and most the time he is stuck somewhere that he can get help on the work, where as suspending them is practically giving them the day off. There is many solutions they could do when it comes to the disciplinary one, it is just finding the right one that works for the majority.