Author Topic: You're Welcome, America (Read 2412 times)

vicious796 · « **on:** October 08, 2009, 01:50:56 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091007/ts_alt_afp/financeeconomyusbudget_20091007223238

US Budget Defecit to Hit 1.4 Trillion by the end of 2009. Wow. As the article states, that's more than $950 BILLION more than last year.

Thank GOD we got Bush out and his military spending.

AceHigh · « **Reply #1 on:** October 08, 2009, 03:21:09 PM »

America's economy is debt based, so wouldn't that be a sign of a good economy?

relic2279 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2009, 03:29:36 PM »

Actually, it is. Sorta. If you are talking about account balance deficit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

Not our budget deficit though.

Thank the 2 billion a week were spending in Iraq for that.

lx4 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2009, 03:37:06 PM »

Its an enormous amount of money but one have to keep in mind that the American economy is also enormous. Japan, Germany, France and many others are even deeper in debt, looked at as part of GDP.

hilander72 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2009, 04:40:25 PM »

Don't forget that govts also have assets.

vicious796 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2009, 05:41:21 PM »

Quote from: relic2279 on October 08, 2009, 03:29:36 PM

Actually, it is. Sorta. If you are talking about account balance deficit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

Not our budget deficit though. Thank the 2 billion a week were spending in Iraq for that.

Not the bail outs of mortgage companies, car manufacturers, and other major banks? I'm sure the cash for clunkers money as well as the 8k tax cut for first time home buyers at the end of the year and a ridiculous omnibus bill didn't have anything to do with it either.

Yeah, it was last year's business but it was this year's administration that didn't do anything about it.

Semnae · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2009, 05:52:51 PM »

Of course we're spending more than last year! Obama inherited two wars, one of which having been "historically under-resourced", and the largest economic recession since the Great Depression. Fixing Bush's screw ups is expensive.

AceHigh · « **Reply #7 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:20:28 PM »

Quote from: Semnae on October 08, 2009, 05:52:51 PM

Of course we're spending more than last year! Obama inherited two wars, one of which having been "historically under-resourced", and the largest economic recession since the Great Depression. Fixing Bush's screw ups is expensive.

God damn it Semnae, you are making me side with Vicious here, something I usually hate to do.

Seriously, how in hell can you blame resession on Bush? Fuck, you could probably blame WW2 on Bush, but no way in hell that he could outdo the damage cause by millions of fucktarded Americans.

I am sure that Chrysler went broke because of Bush and his war, after all poor guys did not make enough money on selling gas turbine engines for Abrams among other things.

Yeah the banks that collapsed because of corruption and greed are probably somehow Bush's fault. The whole economy based on imaginative numbers did not collapse because of retarded speculators in wall street, I am sure that Bush has with his magic hand of god managed to make all those companies that were in debt for decades, suddenly collapse.

Oh, and of course I can't blame anything on common Americans that consumed so much more than needed, pressing the demand so high, that when the crisis hit and was only symbolical (imaginative numbers) at start, made their balls shrink and suddenly stop their consuming habit thus ensuring the collapse of the suppliers.

Yeah, that's right, I just blamed the common population as well. Suck it.

relic2279 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:27:33 PM »

Quote from: vicious796 on October 08, 2009, 05:41:21 PM

Not the bail outs of mortgage companies, car manufacturers, and other major banks? I'm sure the cash for clunkers money as well as the 8k tax cut for first time home buyers at the end of the year and a ridiculous omnibus bill didn't have anything to do with it either.

If the Iraq war didn't bankrupt us, and ruin our economy, we may not have had to bail them out. And even if we still had too, the damage probably wouldn't be as large or as expensive, so the bailouts are a drop in the bucket by comparison:

Iraq: nearly $700 billion, Afghanistan: Nearly $300 billion
Total: Nearly 1 trillion and rising, and will continue too.

Source: http://www.costofwar.com/

I support our $1 trillion+ war.... I'm a real American who hates me some taxes. Ain't that right paw? What?!? A few billion for health care! TEA PARTY TIME!!11 Grab the guns aunt may, we gonna have ourselves a whatchu callit. Demonstration. That's right.

AceHigh · « **Reply #9 on:** October 08, 2009, 06:46:03 PM »

Well, national debt is a debt to citizens, IMF and other countries. Did IMF and other countries come to America to collect the debt? No, they did not. So how did the national debt ruin the economy? Didn't it all start with 2 private banks collapsing? Was the national debt the reason? No. So how can you blame the cost of war for the idiotic choices that private companies did? Besides, didn't you notice that the cost of war is money going back into USA as salary for soldiers, buying equipment thus supporting private companies etc....

Yes the war was fucking unnecessary and expensive, but nobody collected the debt, so it was not the reason for the collapse. I would rather blame the assholes in stock market that were short selling and also making new money out of nothing.

relic2279 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:01:37 PM »

Quote from: AceHigh on October 08, 2009, 06:46:03 PM

Well, national debt is a debt to citizens, IMF and other countries. Did IMF and other countries come to America to collect the debt? No, they did not. So how did the national debt ruin the economy?

Erm. This is a big topic that I'd rather not get into debating because it's super complex. But a few key things stand out: Consumer confidence (which is what you stated above, it means people not buying things), fed pumping money into the economy right after 9/11 and lowering interest rates. Our economy started to tank way back at the beginning of 2002.

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Didn't it all start with 2 private banks collapsing?

No. Again, economy started it's downturn at the beginning of 02. 7 years ago.

Two banks failing didn't cause it, they were casualties of the housing mortgage bubble. Which popped because of the horrible economy.

Quote

Did IMF and other countries come to America to collect the debt?

Sweet! A free war!!! Seriously though, massive debt devalues the dollar to other countries which also further hurts the economy.

vicious796 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:34:17 PM »

Quote from: relic2279 on October 08, 2009, 06:27:33 PM

Quote from: vicious796 on October 08, 2009, 05:41:21 PM
Not the bail outs of mortgage companies, car manufacturers, and other major banks? I'm sure the cash for clunkers money as well as the 8k tax cut for first time home buyers at the end of the year and a ridiculous omnibus bill didn't have anything to do with it either.

If the Iraq war didn't bankrupt us, and ruin our economy, we may not have had to bail them out. And even if we still had too, the damage probably wouldn't be as large or as expensive, so the bailouts are a drop in the bucket by comparison:

Iraq: nearly $700 billion, Afghanistan: Nearly $300 billion
Total: Nearly 1 trillion and rising, and will continue too.

Source: http://www.costofwar.com/

I support our $1 trillion+ war.... I'm a real American who hates me some taxes. Ain't that right paw? What?!? A few billion for health care! TEA PARTY TIME!!11 Grab the guns aunt may, we gonna have ourselves a whatchu callit. Demonstration. That's right.

Over a 6 year period is what you always love to leave out. It cost a trillion over 6 years, not up front, not right now, not after it was already done. You can't keep justifying the ridiculous Democrat spending by saying "Well the Republicans already did it so suck it". I'm sick of it, we've made our bed and we have to sleep in it. I'm sorry Mr. Obama/Reid/Pelosi, you can't have that shiny new toy right now because we already spent our money on hookers and drugs.

Alot of that war debt is paid already, taxes are fantastic. Throw in the money used to give people jobs in the defense and homeland security departments/contracts and the income taxed on that - I promise you alot more people got jobs with that than will this healthcare binge (myself included). No, the war didn't fully pay for itself, but the money you're talking about was spent over time and the money I'm worried about is going to be spent all at once with no sure-fire way to pay for it being shown to the public other than his word that it will pay for itself.

kyanwan · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:46:57 PM »

Quote from: Semnae on October 08, 2009, 05:52:51 PM

Of course we're spending more than last year! Obama inherited two wars, one of which having been "historically under-resourced", and the largest economic recession since the Great Depression. Fixing Bush's screw ups is expensive.

You know what's funny?

How the war "was bad" but now "it's an inherited problem from Bush that must be fixed and we can't lose."

I love that.

Hardcore conservative Republican here.

The war was WRONG then, and it's still WRONG today. It's been fought wrong, it's been waged wrong, and everything about it is JUST PLAIN WRONG.

What is the worst thing I can think of right now? The worst thing that's been done?

Obama + Patraeus.

That's DISGUSTING. Democrat answer: "Shut up and salute."

These people we have in Washington at the moment ... are the sickest bunch of people I have ever seen. We've got blatant soviets coming out of the woodwork... it's insane. I can't recall anything in *OUR HISTORY* like this.

Oh well. You know this guy named "Rush Limbaugh" - you want to know what he said about Obama?

"He's going to screw up so bad ... that there won't be Democrat control for another 25 years." ( No, really. Appointing a guy to be a safe-schools advisor ... who approved of a 15 year old boy sleeping with a 40 year old man - then telling him to use a condom. Do you think that will fly nice? I don't think so. Oh. And it comes from a guy who respects Nambla leaders. Yeah. Beautiful. Obama's the biggest fuck-up ever. CARTER WAS BETTER - at least he CARED about America - not going around telling everyone we're the problem of the world.... What the hell happened? Having a zero-experience smooth talker as president - uh - he knows shit about policy. He's worse than Bush. Obama NEEDS to rely on other people to execute his administrative duties - he's appointing so many advisers ... BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THE FUCK HE'S DOING!!! It should be damn obvious. 2 years experience is NOT enough experience to lead the most powerful nation in the world. Don't get me wrong here either - Sarah Palin is the biggest joke since ... I dunno ... the fishdicks joke. When I heard about her - my first reaction was: "WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKING?!" )

Oh yeah.

I don't like Obama. I'm an kkk evil racist nazi communist and I eat babies, euthanize old people, and melt wheelchairs.

Quote from: vicious796 on October 08, 2009, 07:34:17 PM

Over a 6 year period is what you always love to leave out. It cost a trillion over 6 years, not up front, not right now, not after it was already done. You can't keep justifying the ridiculous Democrat spending by saying "Well the Republicans already did it so suck it". I'm sick of it, we've made our bed and we have to sleep in it. I'm sorry Mr. Obama/Reid/Pelosi, you can't have that shiny new toy right now because we already spent our money on hookers and drugs.

Alot of that war debt is paid already, taxes are fantastic. Throw in the money used to give people jobs in the defense and homeland security departments/contracts and the income taxed on that - I promise you alot more people got jobs with that than will this healthcare binge (myself included). No, the war didn't fully pay for itself, but the money you're talking about was spent over time and the money I'm worried about is going to be spent all at once with no sure-fire way to pay for it being shown to the public other than his word that it will pay for itself.

We're going to keep on spending another trillion - then add an additional trillion because they already spent a trillion.

The first trillion was WRONG. The second trillion IS JUST AS WRONG. Yes we spend too much on Military. We don't have enough Government work - Military-generated-work going into our Military. We need to rely less on people like Boeing - and rely on our own strengths. Maybe even use that selective service ... instead of just having it as some vague card you need to sign when you're 18.

By the way.

Tax hikes.

They're going to work just fine. [ Maryland expected an additional $100m from tax hikes. The source of the tax hikes --- well, they up and disappeared before Maryland could collect their taxes. Epic, but predictable, fail. ]

AceHigh · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:51:52 PM »

Quote from: relic2279 on October 08, 2009, 07:01:37 PM

No. Again, economy started it's downturn at the beginning of 02. 7 years ago.

Two banks failing didn't cause it, they were casualties of the housing mortgage bubble. Which popped because of the horrible economy.

As you said yourself, it's really complex. You don't know if that was 7 years ago or even earlier. Hell I can claim that the Silicon Valley bubble burst caused all of this. Going back and figuring out what started everything is almost impossible in the complex economical system especially since there were many factors that caused it, and pinpointing one saying it was what made everything happen is wrong.

Quote

Sweet! A free war!!! Seriously though, massive debt devalues the dollar to other countries which also further hurts the economy.

Ah but that is the most weird thing. US dollar is the only money in the world that have that weird paradox: the debt only makes it stronger exactly because it is the world's defacto international currency. Money is a merchandise as well that can be bought and sold. Do you know what was the most genious spending in USA's history? Marshal help plan which was about giving away money for free to European countries. Normally that would hurt American economy, but as you see it made it what it is today. So as long as USD is an international currency, the normal rules will not apply.

However if the whole world would suddenly stop using dollars for trading removing it's status, then.... well... it will be the downfall of USA empire and no nukes or military will be able to stop it. Funny to think about it, but I personally believe that it is only a matter of time.

relic2279 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2009, 07:52:01 PM »

Quote from: vicious796 on October 08, 2009, 07:34:17 PM

Over a 6 year period is what you always love to leave out. It cost a trillion over 6 years, not up front, not right now, not after it was already done.

Of course it's over 6 years. When the war started, did they think it was gonna cost us thirteen dollars an eighty cents? It'll probably cost us another trillion more before all is said and done. If not more. But lets bitch about something that actually would benefit us. You know, like health care... $:-\$

Quote

Alot of that war debt is paid already, taxes are fantastic.

Sure are. If we didn't have the war to pay for, we could have 7 universal health cares with money left over.

Quote

I promise you alot more people got jobs with that than will this healthcare binge (myself included). No, the war didn't fully pay for itself, but the money you're talking about was spent over time and the money I'm worried about is going to be spent all at once with no sure-fire way to pay for it being shown to the public other than his word that it will pay for itself.

Ehh.. those contractors over in Iraq are shady as hell... (coughblackwatercoug h)
But your saying the Iraq war has helped out our economy? I feel completely opposite. I believe it's completely obliterating our entire country.

kyanwan · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:05:08 PM »

Quote from: relic2279 on October 08, 2009, 07:52:01 PM

Ehh.. those contractors over in Iraq are shady as hell... (coughblackwatercoug h)
But your saying the Iraq war has helped out our economy? I feel completely opposite. I believe it's completely obliterating our entire country.

A lot of those contracting dollars are funneled directly back into the US economy. How they are funneled back in, though, is questionable.

http://www.acquisition.gov/far/current/html/Subpart%2025_1.html

FAR 25.001 - Buy American Act

Want to know the catch-22 though?

Often, the supplies no longer [exist / get produced] in the USA. So guess what happens?

:|

They do get handled in the US - so at the least something comes back here.

Though for certain things, IT specifically - I have a feeling our tax dollars aren't always going to the US

http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/kidszone/

( Typical Indian/Pakistani type web design. Notice Doraemon is ripped off too.. BTW. They probably paid $30-50K for that. GASP! Yeah. )

relic2279 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:22:50 PM »

Quote from: AceHigh on October 08, 2009, 07:51:52 PM

Funny to think about it, but I personally believe that it is only a matter of time.

For your sake I hope not.

It'd be very naive to think another country wouldn't fill the economic imperialism void left if the US falls out of power. Leading candidate would be China. And me thinks they'd move beyond just "economic" imperialism eventually. I know the US is no angel when it comes to government/economic corruption, but when side by side with China, they're saints in comparison. Scary thought indeed.

AceHigh · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:33:52 PM »

China? I would love China being in that position. Sadly exporting countries like China have no chance in hell. Don't forget that there is way bigger transactions between Europe and USA in terms of trading immaterial merchandise. China just got an impressive amount in their wallet right now, not enough to influence the western countries.

What I am really afraid of is if EU would fill that void. Everyone is bandwagon jumping it anyway these days. Fuck if that corrupt Brussels clusterfuck of retardation would become an economic influence to the rest of the world, than they would have the power to finally force my country into their union of epic fail.

relic2279 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:46:31 PM »

EU would be the best choice to fill that void as far as pushing the western interest agenda goes, but they're not united enough. May never be. Also, not strong enough.

China on the other hand, is united, strong and already starting to push some of it's interests onto the world. If the US liquidates itself or some assets as it falls, China would be the main beneficiary as they own a huge chunk of that debt. But it all depends on "how" the US falls out of power.

China would be a horrible world police btw

They manipulate their own currency, brainwash their citizens, don't generally care for it's population and gives a rats ass about the environment. They are also a very secret country.
They're like North Korea light. (That's a bit of an exaggeration, but not far from the truth) I sure as hell wouldn't want to live under their umbrella. I'd rather it be Europe, or Japan. Not so much China. Russia has a chance too, but China's chances are better in my opinion.

Semnae · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2009, 08:50:29 PM »

Quote from: AceHigh on October 08, 2009, 06:20:28 PM

God damn it Semnae, you are making me side with Vicious here, something I usually hate to do.

Seriously, how in hell can you blame resession on Bush?

I don't blame Bush alone, but to say administrations don't affect the economy is a bit naive. If that were the case, the economy wouldn't be such a major topic during every presidential campaign.