Author Topic: external HD question  (Read 8515 times)

Offline Takeshi

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2009, 09:10:01 AM »
Seeding with your external means it's on all the time. Seeing as an internal is also on all the time, it can be confusing why it's suddenly much worse with an external. Though it can significantly reduce your HDD's life span. I only use mine when I need to move stuff and when I watch stuff from it. And it's not more than a few hours it's on at a time.

Anyway, if your HDD has backup stuff on it, you can just format it, I did that with mine after a while, that was a WD Passport. Though it isn't on unless you activate it.

Offline XinWind

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2009, 09:10:52 AM »
1. IMO the 1TB I have is performing flawlessly. Just don't use it to seed, it'll kill it. But that goes for any harddrive and not just 1-2TB. Also, try to avoid moving it too much, transporting it in a sports bag several times isn't a good idea imo. Especially if there's much space.

2. I have a WD Elements 1TB and a WD Passport 320GB, and they've yet to fail on me or performance bad. The Passport one does show some ageing in the case of disconnecting if I touch the USB cable, though I can't say I've been too good to it. Sometimes you forget it's connected because it's so small and you move your laptop. Bad stuff happens..

3. IMO that's a very good price, though quality can vary of course, my 1TB costed around $160-180 and it's very good quality.

EDIT: Have you tried looking through the Technology forum? There's several threads concerning this subject. Also, you should probably have posted this in that forum.

errr.. why is it bad to seed? Because thats what ive been doing for quite a while now, lol. All my animes on the external HD and i leave it on a lot to seed here. It doesn't get moved much, usually stays on the desk plugged into the laptop. I really need to know this because thats pretty much what its used for. Storing and d.loading/torrenting anime. So if that hurts it thats a problem o_O

 i may look up that WD one. Are there any brands i should just stay away from? anyone know how HP is? One thing i definatly dont want are stupid autobackup programs.

hmm i didn't see the tech forum at all. It probably would be better over there. Can a mod move it over there? If not i guess maybe just lock this and i can repost there?





Doesn't seed from the external over work it and end up ruining it in the future and shorten the life span. If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Also if you look in the tech. section there should be my thread still and people have listed a few good externals and which ones to avoid on it.

My thread

Offline billlanam

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2009, 09:34:48 AM »
The internal drives have case fans to help keep them cool.
Cheap external drives have no such cooling, which means you would have to find a way to keep them cool if you want them to last, like keeping your room cold, or a metal cup of water, or blowing air over them with a fan, etc.

Offline Takeshi

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2009, 09:42:34 AM »
The internal drives have case fans to help keep them cool.
Cheap external drives have no such cooling, which means you would have to find a way to keep them cool if you want them to last, like keeping your room cold, or a metal cup of water, or blowing air over them with a fan, etc.
Ah, I knew it was something simple. I think my 1TB has a 10-15+ holes that the air can get out of, though I don't know if there's a fan. It probably also has something to do with how cheap they're whether they have a fan or not.

Offline Sticks

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Re: New External isnt working so well.
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2009, 01:30:04 PM »
External drive manufacturers (Imation/Iomega/HP/Verbatim/whatever) usually use whatever brand of HDD they have available or have a deal with at the time since they don't have the capacity to manufacture their own HDDs. WD/Seagate/Samsung/Hitachi/etc do, or they use the same factory.

Offline kenshin-dono

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 03:36:00 AM »
tnx xin i'll go take a look over at that thread

Im still a bit confused about this seeding thing. Is the problem just USING it that wears it out, or heat? because i actually have a desk fan i almost never use off to the side that i could turn on and point at it if thats the problem. Though i dont recall my current Maxtor one ever getting particularly hot. If its just use, then are external HD's just designed worse than internals?

this is something i really need to know because it REALLy does get used a lot. Almost as much as my regular HD. I dont have much space on my laptop which is what i usually use since its hooked into my TV and surround sound and the like, so i rely on externals for all my anime needs. I watch, and leave seeds on all the time (3:1 ratio right now on BBT)

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Offline kenshin-dono

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Re: New External isnt working so well.
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2009, 03:37:50 AM »
so im asuming its better to go with someone that does it all in house then?

you listed
WD/Seagate/Samsung/Hitachi

is there  a way of telling when you look at the box?
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Offline kureshii

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Re: New External isnt working so well.
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2009, 04:01:09 AM »
is there  a way of telling when you look at the box?
AFAIK, no. WD almost always uses caviar greens in their externals though, so that is what you are likely to get. You might have to ask around and see what kind of drives people got in their enclosures.

I had a pretty good experience with a 320GB Hitachi Deskstar, and most reviews I find of their Deskstar series are quite positive as well. I don't know much about their laptop drives, though. Also, that drive is at least 4 years old now, so I don't know how highly (or lowly) the Deskstar is reputed these days, hard drive reviews just don't interest me as much nowadays.

IMO when it comes to externals, it is too much of a hassle to try to buy a pre-assembled external just to get the internal drive you want. If you want that much control over the parts you get, find a well-ventilated 3.5" enclosure and put in your drive of choice. Or you could go for one of these babies. (Probably has better ventilation too.)


(Note that it's the first link off Google, I'm not endorsing that make of hard drive dock in any way)

If you're getting a pre-assembled external, service support and warranty should be the most important factors. Reliability and other issues may vary even between drives of the same make, from batch to batch. Maybe a firmware revision bricks a batch of drives but is quickly fixed, a bad batch of solder makes some drives die under high heat, etc. Also, do NOT judge a drive solely by its MTBF. In fact, don't even do any MBTF comparisons unless you know what it actually is (statistically), and how the manufacturer measures it.

Picking a drive for its performance is moot since you're not even getting full speed from the drives anyway. Rather, find a company/dealer who's willing to expedite your RMAs and other warranty claims. Even if you have to pay a slight price premium for better service, it's worth it in the long term.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 04:04:38 AM by kureshii »

Offline kenshin-dono

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2009, 12:27:56 AM »
well looked over the thread.. few things that confused me and several of my questions werent covered there

One thing was brand.. some people actually sugested Seagate, i thought they were utter ass?

WD seemed to come up a lot but im confused on the different versions what is an elements WD? Tats i think said that he bought an elements and it sucked but his other WD's were good. Whats the difference and which one should i snag for an external?

a few people also sugested just buying a HD/case and hooking it up... doesn't that defeat the purpouse of just hooking it up via USB? Not sure how that would work with an ATA hookup or something

So i guess WD is the best bet to gofor? anyone have a specific model thats the best bet? around 1tb or so.  Id also really like to know what brands just suck, never really got any info on that. I thought Seagate sucked but some people were actually recommending them in that thread for some reason o_O

Im asuming all these externals use NTSF right? i dont think anything uses crappy fat32 anymore right?
"I've lived in darkness a long time. Over the years, my eyes adjusted until the dark became my world and I could see"-Dexter

Offline kenshin-dono

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Re: New External isnt working so well.
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 12:31:58 AM »
that kinda sucks i guess the best bet is to just stick with WD or some brand that actually uses its own HD's.. does samsung and hitatchi use their own HDs as well?

building my owns not really an option, im not even sure how to hook that up, dont you need to use a sata conection or something going into the computer? this is mostly for a laptop

i keep hearing WD is probably the way to go for a good external, but im not sure which one to get
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Offline ratfire666

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 12:35:39 AM »
Just dont get the newly designed Seagates (the slim looking silver colored ). Those don't have any vent holes of any kind. I learned the hard way when my new seagate died 4 hrs after I had used it. Thats when I found out it had no ventilation whatsoever.

Offline XinWind

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 12:35:42 AM »
Some use fat32 from what I see still

From what I gathered from the thread was to avoid seagate lol.
DON'T get a seagate or a Maxtor.
They're fucking stupid.
I got a 750gb Maxtor and one of the airvents is on the bottom where it stands on.
It boils the harddrive on a warm day.
I could go on and on. But srsly, they suck suck suck.
Yes, avoid those two. Specially Maxtor. Seagates is an upgrade of Maxtor with short or long term problems. I have a Seagate 300 GB and I'm gonna probably kill it sooner than later for pissing my computer off. Piece of shit external HDD.

As said by Chiya and Tatsu lol.


As for me I plan on getting this one. Only problem is that it uses fat32.
Which was recommended and a few of my friends are using it which I didn't know about until the thread died out lol.

Also listen to what Kureshii said:
A hard drive that is used as little as possible will likely last longer. If it's just for storage it shouldn't tax the hard drive too much, but I wouldn't recommend seeding for long periods of time off an external.

I greatly prefer mounting hard drives internally, and the basis of this preference is the increased cooling capacity provided by a good computer case (8cm-or-larger fan for ventilating hard drives, v.s. 4cm-or-smaller fan in an external enclosure, if not none at all).

On this premise, internally-mounted hard drives without forced ventilation are not much better than hard drives in an external cage (this is usually the case in a basic super-cheap computer case, and possibly in some budget pre-builts as well). If ambient temperatures and humidity are really low there, you might be able to get away with it. But I live in the tropics; humidity is typically >80%, and temperatures never go lower than 25˚C—no way I'm going to risk hard drives going unventilated here.

[Confession: Okay, so I do have an unventilated external... but I don't use it for seeding, and it's currently only being used to archive some raw data.]

If you have SMART reporting on your hard drives, check the drive temperatures. Anything above 50˚C is way too hot (unless it's an enterprise drive designed to withstand such temperatures over 24/7 operation… but why would you put such a drive in an external enclosure?), and personally I try to keep it no more than 45˚C. Ideal temperatures are probably in the 30˚C region (depending on your regional climate).

Note that even if you follow the guidelines above it is no guarantee against disk failure (just like there is no 100% guarantee against heart failure), but you certainly lower the risk of it happening by quite a bit (I think).

Just dont get the newly designed Seagates (the slim looking silver colored ). Those don't have any vent holes of any kind. I learned the hard way when my new seagate died 4 hrs after I had used it. Thats when I found out it had no ventilation whatsoever.

Seagate ain't too bright are they? Whats the point of making it without any vent holes what so ever. Its obvious its going to heat up and yet they leave out the idea of prevention out of the making of it -.- Are they trying to make you buy another one after a few hrs? Is that their plan on how to make money? o.O
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 12:43:41 AM by XinWind »

Offline kenshin-dono

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2009, 02:02:35 AM »
ya i found it very odd seagate got recomended by a few people. I remember hearing about some horror stories with their HDs several years back.

that WD one you show looks pretty good.. but yuck fat32. Isn't that way shittier than NTSF? I thought it was much more prone to corruption. i didn't even think stuff still used it

how can you check what the HD uses? the link you showed doesn't mention file storage system

oh ya maybe a dumb question but has the actual technology changed on HD's in the past decade or so? Or is it still just several disks pressed together that magnetically store data? It just seemed like such a corruptible odd medium that i figured thered be some change in basic structure by now. I mean who the hell still uses cassette tapes =P kinda the same principle

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Offline kureshii

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Re: New External isnt working so well.
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2009, 02:12:56 AM »
Merged both external HDD threads.

Offline XinWind

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2009, 02:13:07 AM »
ya i found it very odd seagate got recomended by a few people. I remember hearing about some horror stories with their HDs several years back.

that WD one you show looks pretty good.. but yuck fat32. Isn't that way shittier than NTSF? I thought it was much more prone to corruption. i didn't even think stuff still used it

how can you check what the HD uses? the link you showed doesn't mention file storage system

oh ya maybe a dumb question but has the actual technology changed on HD's in the past decade or so? Or is it still just several disks pressed together that magnetically store data? It just seemed like such a corruptible odd medium that i figured thered be some change in basic structure by now. I mean who the hell still uses cassette tapes =P kinda the same principle



Look in the review for it and alot of them say its fat32 and thats the bad part about it other than that its great. lol

Offline kureshii

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2009, 02:19:24 AM »
Does it matter how it's formatted? You should be able to reformat it prior to use in pretty much any OS of choice. Of course, I speak as one who has never used a pre-assembled external HDD before, so I don't know if industry practice actually condones (or even managed to pull off) something as ridiculous as prevent one from reformatting a pre-built external drive...



If you don't get an NTFS option in the Format dialog box, then either the firmware for the IDE/SATA-USB adapter is total crap, or you're trying to format a thumb drive.

Quote
a few people also sugested just buying a HD/case and hooking it up... doesn't that defeat the purpouse of just hooking it up via USB? Not sure how that would work with an ATA hookup or something
Not really. The externals you use are the same thing anyway; a hard drive hooked up to a SATA-USB or IDE-USB adapter, and put in an enclosure. They essentially look like this on the inside:




Inside, the hard drive plugs in to an IDE/SATA connector. Outside, you usually get a USB connection, and in some cases eSATA and/or Firewire as well. Just like with a pre-built external. That particular enclosure is a Vantec NexStar, accepts both IDE and SATA drives (IDE connection shown in upper image, SATA in lower image). I described it in more detail in this post.

My personal preference is for enclosures like this:



Not the prettiest solution, but you get much better cooling for your drives ;) and much more convenience, too.



As for Seagate, their drives are pretty alright (the internal drives, I make no comment on their enclosure design). The Barracuda series is a good performer, and if not for their somewhat recent firmware scare (from their Knowledgebase, or just google "seagate firmware issue") I'd say they're not too bad. But AFAIK the newer batches of drives should have the firmware issue resolved already (you should do your own googling to confirm this though). More info here.

I have 4 Seagates (the supposedly ill-fated 1TB Barracuda 11s) running in my NAS, 1 died within a year and got repaired under warranty; replaced it with a 1TB WD Caviar Green, and the repaired Seagate is now sitting as a spare. The other 3 are still running fine, so if there's any sort of hardware issue I'd say it is not an easily reproducible one. They're mounted in RAID 5 so they should see equal usage; I doubt the drive failure is due to overworking of one drive alone. There are no clicky sounds from the Barracudas just yet, and with cooling from a 80mm fan in the NAS they run at about 41 deg C (105 F).

I agree that Maxtors are crap, but I wouldn't carry their reputation over to Seagate just because Seagate bought them over (I have no idea why Seagate would do that too...) They may be under the same upper management, but that does not necessarily mean their manufacturing processes are the same.



Once again, I emphasise that service support and warranty should be your primary considerations for an external drive (one you don't plan on assembling yourself). Since these are devices you cannot open up without voiding the warranty, it is essential that if they do break down (and there is always a chance they will, no matter how well-reupted the drive), you can get a replacement ASAP without having to do any drive-swapping yourself. If after 2 or more replacements the drive still dies within the warranty period, it's a crap drive. Otherwise, you probably are just unlucky (or live in a hot and humid place).

On a final note, here's an interesting study on hard drive failures by Google. In particular, note the definition of MTBF, and how it says nothing about how likely your drive will fail. Also, it seems temperature (>40C) has less of an effect than I thought, but it is still noticeable.

[edit] An interesting (and witty) response from NetApp to Google's study :) If you're lost at this point, feel free to stop; you're perfectly fine without knowing all this.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 03:44:47 AM by kureshii »

Offline ratfire666

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2009, 05:05:17 AM »
Let me rephrase that XinWind. the seagate i had bought died 4 hrs after I had bought it and started transferring anime emus and such from my old HD to the new seagate. When I came back about 4 hrs later I heard a weird buzzing sound. I tapped it a little, still got the ominous buzzing.

Offline XinWind

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2009, 07:05:16 AM »
Let me rephrase that XinWind. the seagate i had bought died 4 hrs after I had bought it and started transferring anime emus and such from my old HD to the new seagate. When I came back about 4 hrs later I heard a weird buzzing sound. I tapped it a little, still got the ominous buzzing.

Ah I see, but still they should of at least placed vent holes in it. xD I mean its guaranteed it would over heat in some way and for it not to have vents is a bad idea. At least in my opinion.

Offline Tatsujin

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2009, 10:18:52 AM »
There's no point if your HDD dies out and just because you have a warranty. Wouldn't you want it to run longer? Imagine to the files that you have in there got lost <-- That would really suck. Avoid Seagate all together and just get WD. I have one Seagate and I want to replace it as soon as possible before it breaks down on me or something.

That elements external I bought worked fine actually. Works like the other ones so I'm considering to purchase another one or maybe two.


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Offline Klocknov

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Re: external HD question
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2009, 10:32:39 AM »
I will say one thing about the Elements, they are all done by air cooling, they don't have a fan. So if your in a hot and humid area they may not be the best choice, otherwise they work great after you format them to NTSF from FAT.
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