Author Topic: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now  (Read 2782 times)

Offline kyanwan

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AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« on: November 13, 2009, 10:13:14 AM »
Intel settles antitrust suit with AMD

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/12/AR2009111210555.html?hpid=sec-tech

So, In short - they're guilty of anti-competitive market-stifling tactics.   It always puzzled me how ... this bloated company with a sluggish P4 line could be so popular.   How could anyone like them?   How could anyone actually say - "hey, this is a good chip!" - I'm talking PRE Core2.  

How did they do it?   Well, the skeleton's coming out of the closet now.

IMO - these actions from Intel stagnated AMD pretty damn good.  Intel:  your friend.  ;)

Just hope they don't put AMD out of business.  Hoooboy.  I bet Intel LONGS For the good old days of the 90's - and the $2000.00 skin & bones PC ... with a $500 bottom-of-the-line processor.   ( I'm talking early 90s here. )
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Offline kureshii

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2009, 10:44:19 AM »
How could anyone actually say - "hey, this is a good chip!" - I'm talking PRE Core2.
I don't recall the Prescott and Willamette lines actually being called "good" though... the first P4 release was pretty terrible IIRC, and it was only in subsequent revisions that it started turning heads. And even then it was because of crazy-high clock speeds more than other reasons (which we now, of course, know to be a dead-end path for increasing computational capability). But things were different back then.

IMO - these actions from Intel stagnated AMD pretty damn good.  Intel:  your friend.  ;)
Certainly did. Although they paid quite a high price (in the billions) to settle those lawsuits, too. But I guess to them, it was probably worth it to get a step up in grabbing the market share they have now.



As much as Intel looks like the bad guy right now, I can't say I like AMD very much either. There's nothing to say for sure that AMD won't do the same thing if put in Intel's shoes. They're not much more innovative than Intel (post-Prescott era), they don't fix problems faster than Intel (Southbridge AHCI problems ever since SB600 and even with the current SB750, still no 7.1 LPCM on 785G), and they're no longer more power-efficient than Intel.

What are we to conclude then? All microprocessor/chipset companies suck. Intel doesn't care about low prices enough, and they suck at graphics (compared to AMD/Nvidia). AMD still has many problems to fix on their chipsets, and quite a way to catch up with Nvidia on the chipset front, and Intel on the processor front. Nvidia is being overtaken by AMD/ATi on the gaming front when it comes to price/performance, and they have an annoying habit of rebranding their GPUs in a misleading way. ATi only cares about the gaming bottom-line and their support (hardware and API-wise) for GPGPU completely pales in comparison to Nvidia's.

On the flip side, they're all awesome as well. Intel's really pushing the line on power efficiency and processor performance. AMD is near-unbeatable for budget systems with great performance (with some thanks to Intel for breathing down their necks), and the 785G is easily one of the best integrated graphics chipsets for the price. Nvidia is no slouch themselves in the chipset department, and proof of this lies in the ION platform/Geforce 9400 MCP, which performs amazingly for a chip that was rushed out of development. They're also pretty much your only resource if you're looking to go into GPGPU computing at the moment (at the time of this post, they're the only company to have publically released GPU APIs for C, Fortran and OpenCL; DirectCompute is on the way). And in contrast with Nvidia's strong software support, ATi is definitely the leader when it comes to value-for-money gaming video hardware, as GPU benchmarks on reviews everywhere are already pointing out. [This paragraph is only valid at the time of writing, and does not take unreleased products or future shifts in hardware prices into account.]

All I can say now is, I'm glad that lawsuit is over, and Intel and AMD are no longer wasting money paying lawyers. Intel still has another legal battle ahead of it, but in the meantime I'm just glad less money is being spent on dealing with legalities. Hopefully it means more money spent on R&D and product development.

As a side benefit to AMD, I might point out that the Intel-AMD agreement also changes some of the terms that both companies have agreed on. In particular, AMD is no longer bound to manufacture their own x86 chips in-house, as was the case prior to this agreement (where the x86 cross-license between Intel and AMD required them to manufacture their x86 chips in-house, presumably to prevent technology leaks). This means they can free themselves from GlobalFoundries and focus solely on microprocessor R&D rather than manufacturing R&D; with a renewed focus on their core business, hopefully we'll see better chips from AMD, even if their roadmap has been pushed back by a year.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2009, 01:25:48 PM by kureshii »

Offline relic2279

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2009, 01:02:19 PM »
How could anyone actually say - "hey, this is a good chip!" - I'm talking PRE Core2.
I don't recall the Prescott and Willamette lines actually being called "good" though... the first P4 release was pretty terrible IIRC, and it was only in subsequent revisions that it started turning heads. And even then it was because of crazy-high clock speeds more than other reasons (which we now, of course, know to be a dead-end path for increasing computational capability). but things were different back then.

Yeah the prescott processors blew, they ran super hot and were generally meh.... They were based on the old netburst architecture. Supposedly the new Core architecture is actually based on even older technology, pentium pro chips they made in the late 90's.

Offline Humanoidz

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2009, 01:27:20 PM »
I will forever buy AMD/ATI products (mainly because nvidia cards blow up on me, and I like AMD's cheaper processors).  FU Intel!

Intel was practically pushing for a monopoly.  Their dirty business practices remind me of the Mafia.   

Offline kureshii

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2009, 01:38:22 PM »
I will forever buy AMD/ATI products (mainly because nvidia cards blow up on me, and I like AMD's cheaper processors). FU Intel!
Even in a conceivable future where AMD runs the monopoly instead, is kicking Intel's ass, and is also selling mid-range quad-cores for >$1000?

Buy the product, not the brand. you don't get any benefits from being a loyalist (unless AMD secretly sends you new processors every half-year or so to keep you a fanboy, in that case more power to you, and send me a processor or two every so often :D).

Offline Neco

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2009, 08:47:32 PM »
Seriously.

Like said above.  Buy the PRODUCT not the brand.  I am  NO brand loyalist.  I did that and got burned many times.  I was pissed off about the K6-2 in the end.   The Duron / AthlonXP  restored my confidence for a while, but I was not too thrilled with the Athlon x64 for whatever reason.

I have been nothing but happy since my C2D build.  It is my first Intel CPU ever, outside of the outdated shit I played with as a kid that likely had an Intel at some point.  I am very happy with it and it performs very well,  and taking it from 2.13Ghz to 3Ghz  was a nice effort too, I've never been able to O/C an  AMD chip like that, even with water cooling.   Granted I was restricted to the AthlonXP line and some of them were just hot beasts already being pushed to the limit.

I've owned 3Dfx (r.i.p),  ATI (fuck you R8500 flawed POS) and many Geforce cards.    Right now I've been pretty happy with my 8800GTS512, and my next card will likely be Nvidia again,  for lots of reasons.

I like competition, and I was a big AMD supporter back in the day.  But clearly they can take care of themselves now,  they are bigger, have more range of products, and hell they have ATI now.   I'm not shedding any tears for them.

Intel has always been popular because it has brand recognition.   I never saw  commercials for AMD products,  but you bet I remember those gay ass space suit Intel  commercials.   Intel probably stepped over the line at some point, in many situations,  sure.   But I don't think that was the major cause of AMD's  lack of brand recognition.

Offline vuzedome

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2009, 11:11:30 PM »
Well, thanks to all this intels new lineup is bigger than ever and will only keep growing.
Anti-competitive market-stifling tactics? This is how business is played out in the real world.
Can't keep up with the competition? Find another way around.
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Offline relic2279

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2009, 01:09:04 AM »
I have been nothing but happy since my C2D build.  It is my first Intel CPU ever, outside of the outdated shit I played with as a kid that likely had an Intel at some point.  I am very happy with it and it performs very well,  and taking it from 2.13Ghz to 3Ghz  was a nice effort too

Probably have the same chip I have. E6400? I can take mine from 2.13 to 3Ghz on air. Have had it clocked that way for almost 2 years now with no stability problems. Plays 1080p without stuttering and plays any game I throw at it... pretty damn decent for a 2+ year old computer build. (I did upgrade my video card though).

Offline mgz

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2009, 01:44:27 AM »
Well, thanks to all this intels new lineup is bigger than ever and will only keep growing.
Anti-competitive market-stifling tactics? This is how business is played out in the real world.
Can't keep up with the competition? Find another way around.

in reality thought the kind of anti-competitive things they do when they talk about what intel was doing would be like hey
we will sell you this chip for say 50$ now amd would come in and say hey we will sell you chips for 45$ if you buy a fuck ton we will sell for 40.

Intel would then be like well if you buy exclusively intel chips we will sell it to you for 25 bucks.

Now if your a company like dell, or HP, or Lenovo, and your looking at your option  completely ignoring performance your talking about equivalent chips here to your average consumer.
Which are you gonna go with.

Intel was also guilty of doing the same with Nvidia when they were pushing for their shit in netbooks, where intel would sell mobo + cpu for less then just the CPU

so that companies selling 300$ netbook would be looking at spending 40% more to use the nvidia shit in their product because of intel.




Offline kureshii

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2009, 02:15:54 AM »
Well, thanks to all this intels new lineup is bigger than ever and will only keep growing.
Anti-competitive market-stifling tactics? This is how business is played out in the real world.
Can't keep up with the competition? Find another way around.
Anti-competitive market-stifling tactics are underhanded business tactics that run in the face of healthy competition required for capitalism to work ( even if just a little). It's not your typical predatory pricing or other aggressive marketing methods. As explained above, it refers to practices that seek to exclude your competitors, or clearly biased pricing that shows an intention to do the same.

In the case of Intel's biased pricing for the Atom processor and platform, Intel was selling the Atom processor to third-party OEMs alone for $45, but the Atom platform bundle (processor + 945GSE IGP + ICH7) costs only $25. That is clear anti-competitive pricing that seeks to exclude Nvidia's ION platform from the netbook/small-form-factor market. [addendum: See responses from both parties here.]
Does it happen in the real world? Yes. Does it hurt consumers? Yes. Should it be condoned? That depends, but I believe most people would prefer not to allow consumers like themselves to be screwed over by anticompetitive corporate practices.

So think a little before you make careless statements like that.

Also, Intel's lineup for this generation (Nehalem) of processors is actually smaller than last generation's (Core 2). Not that it has anything to do with these antitrust lawsuits...



[edit] On a related note: Intel's Insides
May require a bit of knowledge about what's going on in the industry at the moment, but it's pretty amusing.


This entry should be pretty obvious, though xD



[edit #2]Ars Technica has quite a detailed yet concise coverage of the issue, IMO.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 07:19:45 AM by kureshii »

Offline Viseroid

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 11:30:46 AM »
Nvidia is in some hot waters with Intel and there have been some speculations that Nvidia would get edged out in the future. I'm not one for brand loyalty but I'd like to see Nvidia stay, otherwise ati cards will start costing more :P.

Offline Malific

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 12:23:21 PM »
Quote from: OP News Article
Shares of AMD jumped 218 percent Thursday, closing up $1.16 at $6.48.

>,< One of the companies I had always planned on investing in when I get the cash to do so. Looks like I missed the bus to $$ville though. :'( :-X :-[

Offline Neco

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 02:25:12 PM »
I have been nothing but happy since my C2D build.  It is my first Intel CPU ever, outside of the outdated shit I played with as a kid that likely had an Intel at some point.  I am very happy with it and it performs very well,  and taking it from 2.13Ghz to 3Ghz  was a nice effort too

Probably have the same chip I have. E6400? I can take mine from 2.13 to 3Ghz on air. Have had it clocked that way for almost 2 years now with no stability problems. Plays 1080p without stuttering and plays any game I throw at it... pretty damn decent for a 2+ year old computer build. (I did upgrade my video card though).

Actually I have an E6420...  so I have 2MB more L2 cache than you, neener!   :P
It's a very good chip for sure.  I was hoping to push it to 3.5Ghz on water, but that almost ended in a disaster due to a defective pump and I just decided not to mess with it until I actually had spare money to burn..   So I sucked it up and bought a Noctua..  It was a hard decision to spend that kind of money on a piece of Aluminum, but damn was it worth it.   I've got two Noctua 120's on the  HSF, and two more for  intake/exhaust.   My system is soooo quiet, I can finally leave it on when I sleep again.   The last time I was able to do that was years ago with my last  water cooling setup.

Offline Humanoidz

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 07:54:51 PM »
I will forever buy AMD/ATI products (mainly because nvidia cards blow up on me, and I like AMD's cheaper processors). FU Intel!
Even in a conceivable future where AMD runs the monopoly instead, is kicking Intel's ass, and is also selling mid-range quad-cores for >$1000?

Buy the product, not the brand. you don't get any benefits from being a loyalist (unless AMD secretly sends you new processors every half-year or so to keep you a fanboy, in that case more power to you, and send me a processor or two every so often :D).

I own AMD stock and I like AMD/ATI products.  So I am biased but I ultimately prefer their products hence I bought shares.

Offline GoGeTa006

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 08:13:52 PM »
Ill have to say i bought my quadcore (intel) due to "benchmark" graphs and reviews I read online. I wouldnt have minded getting an AMD, but hey intel is currently kicking AMD's ass (as far as I know this has happened since the core2 was released)

Offline fohfoh

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 08:24:31 PM »
I will forever buy AMD/ATI products (mainly because nvidia cards blow up on me, and I like AMD's cheaper processors). FU Intel!
Even in a conceivable future where AMD runs the monopoly instead, is kicking Intel's ass, and is also selling mid-range quad-cores for >$1000?

Buy the product, not the brand. you don't get any benefits from being a loyalist (unless AMD secretly sends you new processors every half-year or so to keep you a fanboy, in that case more power to you, and send me a processor or two every so often :D).

I own AMD stock and I like AMD/ATI products.  So I am biased but I ultimately prefer their products hence I bought shares.

What does that have to do with anything? I have apple stock but I hate apple products to hell.
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Offline Tatsujin

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 08:26:10 PM »
Ill have to say i bought my quadcore (intel) due to "benchmark" graphs and reviews I read online. I wouldnt have minded getting an AMD, but hey intel is currently kicking AMD's ass (as far as I know this has happened since the core2 was released)
+1

I've had one AMD CPU, then changed to Intel and just sticked with Intel ever since.


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Offline kyanwan

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2009, 08:38:41 PM »
Overall hardware manufacturers are assholes these days.   One company I'd love to point out - is Asus.   True, they do make some of the best motherboards out there ... but ... they pump out so many versions, so many varieties ... they have one with a flaw, then they replace it.   Then there's a new flaw, they replace it ... and so on.

Until they have their flagship board - that they offer at a premium ( it's a great board usually ... but at what price? )

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9140952/Lawsuit_claims_HP_PCs_suffer_constant_lockups_crashes?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2009-11-16

( In the article: HP Sells shitty PCs that are full of flaws.   In other news, the sky is blue - and the sun rises in the east. )

Nvidia is in some hot waters with Intel and there have been some speculations that Nvidia would get edged out in the future. I'm not one for brand loyalty but I'd like to see Nvidia stay, otherwise ati cards will start costing more :P.

Why is Nvidia in hot water with intel *now*?  

See the subject of this thread.  

IIRC - Nvidia has always made pretty decent quality products (in their performance end, and value-performance) - so there's no reason for them NOT to make good Intel chipsets ... other than AMD owns them.

Ill have to say i bought my quadcore (intel) due to "benchmark" graphs and reviews I read online. I wouldnt have minded getting an AMD, but hey intel is currently kicking AMD's ass (as far as I know this has happened since the core2 was released)
+1

I've had one AMD CPU, then changed to Intel and just sticked with Intel ever since.

You ever hear about those synthetic benchmark tuned Intel chips that were champs on the benchmarks ... but failures for performance?   Yeah - those are the shitty CPUs we mentioned earlier in the thread.

Just relying on artificial performance measures = not wise.

There was a point where a shitty underpriced CPU was superior to the "premium" brand.   Yeah, those are the old Athlon XP days.   ;)    I remember when AMD started going uphill - around when Pentium came out.   There really hasn't been much real innovation since back then, imo, other than brute power/MHz changes ( and the stupidifying of CPU marking - with the Intel "We have a bigger number, thus WE are better.   "i940" is bigger than 3.0GHz, so it must be better - and sure, an ASSHOLE would base a purchase on that.   [ Don't underestimate the stupidity of the layperson ]    THAT - was the lamest fucking thing I have ever seen.)  ( * Can't really say GHz - yet.  +1, is not a numerically "big" change - unless you measure in MHz. )

The "biggest" thing to happen - is multicore.   Other than that, nothing much IMO.   ( BTW: I'm talking big, revolutionary changes in CPU design - not memory and other supporting architecture. )

[ For myself and "brand loyalty" - I have none.   I look at value - price vs performance.   I'm not paying double for a 10% increase in performance.   I'd much rather have 2 systems. ]
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 08:48:24 PM by kyanwan »
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Offline Humanoidz

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2009, 12:40:10 AM »
I will forever buy AMD/ATI products (mainly because nvidia cards blow up on me, and I like AMD's cheaper processors). FU Intel!
Even in a conceivable future where AMD runs the monopoly instead, is kicking Intel's ass, and is also selling mid-range quad-cores for >$1000?

Buy the product, not the brand. you don't get any benefits from being a loyalist (unless AMD secretly sends you new processors every half-year or so to keep you a fanboy, in that case more power to you, and send me a processor or two every so often :D).

I own AMD stock and I like AMD/ATI products.  So I am biased but I ultimately prefer their products hence I bought shares.

What does that have to do with anything? I have apple stock but I hate apple products to hell.

What?  I like AMD products more.  So what if I buy the brand?  I hate talking over the internet.

Offline dan1972

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Re: AMD vs Intel - legal issues ... and why Intel is big right now
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2009, 06:40:00 AM »


AMD: loli powered™