France shows off cutting-edge navy ship in Russia

[darkjedi]

France shows off cutting-edge navy ship in Russia

By IRINA TITOVA, Associated Press Writer Irina Titova, Associated Press Writer   – Mon Nov 23, 9:50 am ET

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia – A cutting-edge French warship sailed into St. Petersburg Monday to show off its capabilities to potential buyers in the Russian navy, whose pursuit of an amphibious assault capacity is frightening some neighboring countries.

Russia's once-mighty navy was severely degraded after the fall of the Soviet Union and it currently has no big ship with the power to anchor in coastal waters and deploy troops onto land.

Russian officials announced this year that they were planning to make their first arms deal with a NATO country by buying a French vessel like the Mistral, a 23,700-ton (21,500-metric ton), 980-foot (299-meter) (do you think this is a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier, Ms. Titova?) vessel able carry more than a dozen helicopters able to haul hundreds of troops directly onto enemy territory.

The head of the Russian navy has said that a Mistral-class vessel could put as many troops in Georgia in 40 minutes as the Russian Black Sea Fleet took 26 hours to land during the nations' August 2008 war. Moscow declared the Russian-allied breakaway Georgian territory of Abkhazia an independent nation after the war and sent thousands of troops there. Russia, Georgia and Ukraine all have Black Sea coastlines, as does Abkhazia.

The Mistral docked Monday on the Neva River, about half a mile (1 kilometer) from the Hermitage museum. Russian media reported that the French and Russian navies are planning joint exercises with the ship this week.

Russian media reports have said a Mistral-class ship would cost Russia up to euro500 million ($750 million). Officials in Moscow have expressed interest in buying licenses to build several more in Russia.

"We strongly oppose the sale of such ship to Russia," Nika Laliashvili, a member of the Georgian parliament's defense affairs committee, told The Associated Press. "It poses a serious danger to Georgia."

The Mistral, which was launched in 2006 and first saw service in a Lebanon refugee operation, is one of the two ships of that class in the French navy.

Bruno Daffix, a spokesman for the French Defense Ministry's export and sales agency, described the ship as a "Swiss army knife" of military ships — able to carry helicopters, land forces, hospitals or refugees, among other things.

NATO officials in Brussels would not comment Monday on the possible French navy sale.

The Kremlin has increasingly sought in recent years to reaffirm Russia's global reach and prestige in world affairs. It has sent its warships to patrol pirate-infested waters off Somalia and dispatched a navy squadron to the Caribbean where it took part in joint maneuvers with the Venezuelan navy and made several port calls in 2008.

The Caribbean mission, aimed at flexing military muscles near the U.S. in the tense months after the war between Russia and Georgia in August 2008, was the most visible Russian navy deployment since Soviet times.

But despite the Kremlin's ambitions, the post-Soviet economic meltdown has left the Russian navy with only a handful of big ships in seaworthy condition and badly crippled the nation's shipbuilding industries.

Russia has only one Soviet-built aircraft carrier, the Admiral Kuznetsov, which is much smaller than the U.S. aircraft carriers and has been plagued by mechanical problems and accidents.

Russian shipbuilders have opposed the Mistral deal, saying the government should invest in domestic production instead. Navy officials have argued that license production of Mistral-class ships would help modernize Russia's aging industries.

The French Defense Ministry's arms acquisition and sales agency has reported that French exports rose 15 percent in 2008 to euro6.4 billion, thanks in part to sales of the French-Italian built FREMM multipurpose frigate to Morocco and the EC725 Cougar tactical transport helicopter to Brazil.

French military exports are expected to rise to euro6.7 billion this year.

Among France's recent big-ticket sales deals, Brazil has agreed to buy five French Scorpene submarines, one of them with nuclear propulsion, and 50 Cougar helicopters for about $12 billion. All would be assembled in Brazil.

Looks nice, but Russia could have ordered the same kind of ship packing even greater firepower from Korea at half the price tag.



Overpriced French ships, I say. Russian bastards just don't want to drive the ship all the way from Busan to St. Petersberg. *shakes head*

[relic2279]

France selling Russia military equipment?

I'll be damned.
(mind you, I was born in 79. during the 80's, Russia was our mortal enemy and at the time, our military equal)

[darkjedi]

Money rules in this age.

[Neco]

They sold Saddam the reactor for his nuclear cannon, why wouldn't they sell Russia a couple measly ships?

 

[relic2279]

It's not that I am surprised they are, I'm surprised Russia's military tech is behind enough to where they have to purchase their top end stuff from France.

[NaRu]

It's not that I am surprised they are, I'm surprised Russia's military tech is behind enough to where they have to purchase their top end stuff from France.

Perhaps they were smarter that way to let another country do all the work for them

[darkjedi]

^^Or, France just has more money than Russia does now, so France can start building it sooner, and Russia can pay it later.

[darkjedi]

The ship looks nice on the surface but within it's full of technical limitations... let's look at the engine. 19 knots is an embarrassing top speed for a 21000-ton amphibious assault ship. You could say they'd be assaulting over-the-horizon so it's fine, but boy, it's still an amphibious assault ship. Speed is still of essence here.

Next thing, defense systems.

MANPAD and machine guns for point defense. lol. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia stripped them off and refitted the ship with Tor and AK-630 instead, or maybe even the missiles-and-guns integrated CIWS Kashtan, but that could just be overkill - it's the most advanced CIWS actually in service out there.

ASW is entirely reliant on helicopters - no torpedo or mortar tubes - nothing.

Anti-ship and anti-missile systems are non-existent, except for a 30mm gun... good against speedboats, I guess.

Anyone who says France's radar and EW systems are better than Russia's should jump over a cliff now.

But then I don't think Russia could have found any better ship from anyone else who were willing to build one for them, and Russia can always compensate for France's technological inferiority by themselves anyway any time they need to when they receive the ship.

The ship might be cutting-edge for France, but that's it. It's not the technology involved in the ship that has attracted Russia's attention - rather they don't want to pressure their ship industry for building ships like this when they have something else better to build or maintain, when someone else can build it for them.

[AntiPaladin]

*Blink, blink*

Wait, what?

This tub is being called cutting edge? 19 knots for a 21k ton amphib isn't embarrassing, it's fucking pathetic. A Tarawa class, built 30 years ago, has an operational weight almost double that and is listed as having an unclassified speed of 24 knots (mind you, actual speed will be quite a bit higher) The Wasp class makes it look even worse, especially in terms of built in defense systems.

Additionally, both have a troop and helo compliment that puts this to shame.

Makes me glad I'm in the US navy, not Russia's.

[darkjedi]

French Ship Mistral Hosts Russian Naval Aviation
(Source: French Navy; issued Nov. 30, 2009)
(Issued in French only; unofficial translation by defense-aerospace.com)

"This day will mark history." These are the words uttered on November 27, 2009 by the Director General and Chief Designer of the Kamov firm, Mr Sergei Viktorovich Mikheyev, at the first landing of the Russian Ka-52 combat helicopter aboard a helicopter carrier. In this case, the ship was the French Navy’s Bâtiment de Projection et Commandement (BPC) Mistral.

Having barely sailed out of the Neva, in the heart of St. Petersburg, where the Mistral made a four-day visit, the ship made a "cross deck" landing exercise with Russian Navy helicopters. For over an hour, several deck landings were made by a Ka-27 (Helix anti submarine warfare helicopter), a Ka-29 (assault transport helicopter) and the impressive Ka-52, which also simulated a refueling on the flight deck of the Mistral.

The Ka-52 is Russia’s latest combat helicopter, and like other helicopters designed by the Kamov design bureau is fitted with coaxial main rotors. Thanks to the absence of anti-torque tail rotor, they offer stability and exceptional agility. Another originality of the Ka-52 is its ejector seats, which allow its two pilots, installed side by side, to be extracted from the aircraft after the blades are blown off in less than 6 seconds.

The Ka-52, which has not yet entered active service, thus made its first deck landings on the Mistral, whose choice is a strong symbol of the friendship between Russia and France.

Further evidence of the close Franco-Russian relationship was given by the participation of a French officer to the KA-29’s deck landings. Ensign Rémi Wasseln, helicopter flight deck officer on the Mistral, made several landings in the Mistral aboard the Ka-29. It is with ill-concealed joy that he commented on these bilateral exercises: "It's a rare moment that I experienced, and I will have fond memories of being able to fly over the Mistral in the Ka-29 while a Ka-52 was in the landing circuit. The crew of the Ka-29 was very friendly, and showed great kindness to me. I look forward to working again with the Russian navy, maybe with the Ka-52," he said.

In unison, General Nikolai Victirivitch Kuklev, acting commander of the Russian Naval Air Arm, M. Mikheev and Captain Didier Piaton, commander of the Mistral, welcomed the ease with which these exercises were smoothly conducted. Adapting protocols, acclimatizing to new operational cultures, and communicating when not speaking the same language are not easy accomplishments. These difficulties have been overcome by the common desire of the Russian naval aviation and the French navy to mark this day in history by allowing the Ka-52 Russian made its first deck landings on the French Mistral.

(EDITOR’S NOTE: The Russian government has shown interest in purchasing one or more Mistral-class amphibious ships from France, and the visit to St. Petersburg was an initial demonstration of its capabilities.)

That helicopter looks badass, man. Seriously.

[AntiPaladin]

Ugh, I hate photo ops, and this is one reason why. Yes, it looks nice... and that's about all. Sort of like the tub in question. Again, the US is using chassis 30 years old that are still better than this bird. And considering there's a total of 10 of those 52s in operation, I think it will be a while before we need to worry about them.

[darkjedi]

Russia did not build and buy these ships and gunships with gaining limited superiority over the finer U.S. or European militaries in mind. Russia understands that unilaterally outperforming the conventional warmachines of the militaries of affluent countries in the West will be practically impossible for a long time to come.

It is the less well-trained and less well-equipped militaries of small countries like Estonia and Georgia who might run afoul of Russia's expansionist ambitions in the perceivable future to whom these ships and gunships' latent abilities at quickly undermining their less modern amphibious defense become a matter of concern.

Russia being expected to have easier time launching amphibious assault on their vulnerable sea border can also weaken their conventional military deterrence.

[AceHigh]

It's not that I am surprised they are, I'm surprised Russia's military tech is behind enough to where they have to purchase their top end stuff from France.

I guess the real reason is that their only shipyards who were capable to produce big military ship are now physically located in Ukraine which makes shipbuilding a bit of a political problem.

Overpriced French ships, I say. Russian bastards just don't want to drive the ship all the way from Busan to St. Petersberg. *shakes head*

Correction: South Korea being a US personal bitch is not allowed to sell their ships to anyone whom the imperialist states of America don't approve 

[Proin Drakenzol]

Wow... only 19 knots? That's even slower than the Blue Ridge... and we're a 40 year old ship...

[AceHigh]

Russians should just design a successor to their Zubr class amphibious landing craft that has a speed of 60 knots....



Actually if those were deployed from some huge slow cargo ship, it would still be effective as hell.

[sdedalus83]

Russians should just design a successor to their Zubr class amphibious landing craft that has a speed of 60 knots....

Actually if those were deployed from some huge slow cargo ship, it would still be effective as hell.

You mean like this?

[AceHigh]

No, I believe Zubr is too big to fit into the Wasp class. Don't get me wrong, Wasp class is a really good landing ship, but I believe that Zubr would need something of a different design or just a bigger launch bay. I mean Zubre is the worlds largest military hovercraft and it's length is 57 meters and has a cargo area of 400 square meters. I wonder what it was deployed from during the Soviet union times, i guess just from a shore or docks.

[sdedalus83]

No, I believe Zubr is too big to fit into the Wasp class. Don't get me wrong, Wasp class is a really good landing ship, but I believe that Zubr would need something of a different design or just a bigger launch bay. I mean Zubre is the worlds largest military hovercraft and it's length is 57 meters and has a cargo area of 400 square meters. I wonder what it was deployed from during the Soviet union times, i guess just from a shore or docks.

You just have to carry it on top 

We should have offered to sell the Tarawa to the Russians rather than scrapping it.  It's still better than half of the non-American carriers currently deployed, and it could probably carry a couple of mini-Zubrs, each capable of delivering a tank or a few armored transports.  Probably not the best idea for the Russians though.  Any military action on their part will probably be close enough to one of their own air force bases to make Harriers pointless.

[AntiPaladin]

There's no way you could build a ship to carry multiples of something as large as a Zubr. Each one is the size of 4 LCACs, and that's the entire load for a Whidbey-class LSD. You'd need something the size of a small island to haul 2-3 Zubr, which would limit its use for amphibious assaults.

I prefer that we're scrapping the Tarawa. If Russia is willing to purchase new ships that are inferior to what we're turning into razorblades, then by all means, let them waste their cash rather than give them something decent to purchase.

[darkjedi]

sdedalus83 is a pragmatic strategist. If the U.S. could sell secondhand ships to Russia and earn some money out of it while not radically altering the strategic balance, it's most beneficial for the U.S. to do so and political prejudices and idealism shouldn't stand in its way. Unfortunately many American politicians don't share his point of view. (I believe neoconservative ideals are what has always been driving U.S.'s diplomatic overtures throughout its modern history; World War, Cold War, Clinton and Bush's administration; I dunno about Obama now - the halting of F-22 production and the cancellation and curtailing of many of its top-agenda military projects seem to indicate a change but I don't know how much role the global recession played in it)