Discussion Forums > The Lounge
Pain
furuoshiki:
"Physicians also may suggest a variety of medications to treat RLS. Generally, physicians choose from dopaminergics, benzodiazepines (central nervous system depressants), opioids, and anticonvulsants. Dopaminergic agents, largely used to treat Parkinson's disease, have been shown to reduce RLS symptoms and PLMD and are considered the initial treatment of choice. Good short-term results of treatment with levodopa plus carbidopa have been reported, although most patients eventually will develop augmentation, meaning that symptoms are reduced at night but begin to develop earlier in the day than usual. Dopamine agonists such as pergolide mesylate, pramipexole, and ropinirole hydrochloride may be effective in some patients and are less likely to cause augmentation."
- From NIH.gov
1) Have you tried Valerian? It seems to show similar actions to benzodiazepines. I use it every other night to help me sleep. It is an overall muscle relaxant. There are many essential oils available that have anti-convulsive effects. I believe Lemon Balm, Passionflower and Chamomile are anti-convulsion herbs.
Even if we do not know the cause of the RLS we can still use alternative remedies to relieve the symptoms better and cheaper than pharmaceuticals can.
As for these class of drugs: "For more severe symptoms, opioids such as codeine, propoxyphene, or oxycodone" -- NIH.gov ; There has to be a natural equivalent that operates on the same mechanism.
From your earlier response you indicated you were taking opiods. I am not familiar with the natural equivalent of this class of drug but will post later if i find that it exists.
The goal is to get yourself on the absolute minimum amount of pain-killers needed. The natural versions of the pharmaceuticals will be less likely in causing long-term damage to the liver.
2) Problems with Dopamine appear to be related to the condition. The following herbs/naturally occuring compounds act similarly on dopamine pathways/channels in comparison to pharmaceuticals: 5-HTP (from Griffona Seed)/L-Tyrosine(forgot what plant it is extracted from :().
3) Find out if you can get prescribed marijuana and move to a state that allows for marijuana prescriptions. Also see if you can find an edible/natural alternative to mary jane that is legal in the state in which you reside.
4) Try Tumeric root. Apparently the plant extract has a profound effect as a COX-2 inhibitor which functions tri-fold as: a) an NSAID(Pain killer) as well as b) a selective MAO-A inhibitor, along with c) Anti-Anxiety/Depression effects featured in pharmaceuticals like Celebrex and Vioxx, except without the harsh effects of the synthesized artificial compounds.
I know that right now you can only focus on the pain and how to keep it away, but it is worth giving some of these natural compounds a try to see if it can treat your issue more safely than what you are taking now.
If you are unsure of how to start your search and are wary of scams you can private message me and i will try my best to point you in the right direction. I am very passionate about going natural because of my personal experience and success in leading a healthy life at 1/2 the cost (both monetary and physical costs related with side effects associated with using pharmaceuticals).
Off the top of my head since it's the winter time another two herbs would be worth a try since they are good for the season:
Cayenne Pepper - Mild NSAID effect, stimulates gastric juices and absorption of other drugs or herbs, has a warming effect if you are cold or have poor circulation.
Piperine - Great to combine with Tumeric for advanced effects. Increases mild warming effect on corporal temperature caused by Curcumin (Tumeric).
Definitely see what cayenne pepper does for you. I did a little research and it says rarely that RLS can be caused by poor circulation. Cayenne definitely improves blood circulation and purifies the blood.
Also try herbs with a hypotensive effect (lowering blood pressure). High blood pressure (even minor HBP) can cause minor seizures which can manifest as RLS in those with the genes for it.
The guy who said reducing salt may be right. Salt increases blood pressure which would make one sensitive to seizures have symptoms that manifest as RLS.
Another issue you could be having is low dopamine. Low dopamine can lead to muscle contractions and spasms as a result of nerves that are not being properly nourished by the chemical transmitter. These nerves will decay both in the brain and in your legs/arms which can cause involuntary convulsions.
- For the record...I am not a licensed medical doctor nor do I have any certifications in any medical specialty what so ever! However, a lot of this knowledge on these drugs/natural alternatives comes from researching natural treatments for depression.
Addition: This morning I was feeling like absolute shit. I had only gotten about 2 hours of sleep (by 100% fault of my own :-\ lol). I was having some tremors and shakes as a result of the poor quality and duration of sleep that I did get. I took about 500mg of tumeric root (plant extract). I wasn't golden...but the tremors and fatigue went away and I was able to do more than just grunt and groan. I actually got an errand done today and was able to travel. I still am not 100% of course because nothing can substitute for a good night's rest. However, I am functional. Tumeric is very useful for hang-overs due to binge drinking for this same reason. It does something to soothe fatigued nerve cells.
Maybe I'm being overly-optimistic (which I rarely am!) but perhaps by this same mechanism it can help your RLS problem somewhat. Just make sure to do your research and don't take Tumeric with any pain killers or MAO-inhibitor anti-depressant/anti-convulsives. Make sure to try herbs only after about 2 weeks when you are clean off any pharmaceuticals to see how they work alone before trying combinations.
Neco:
Personally I'm not about to make myself a guinea pig. But I'm sure people have tried most of the types of things you've suggested.
We have a non-pharmaceutical section on the support forum I belong to, where people discuss things like MJ or other herbs and supplements.
Regarding benzodiazepenes. They really don't treat much for RLS symptoms, so much as they sedate you enough to "sleep through" the symptoms. I have intentionally stayed clear of benzos because I am also a recovering opiate addict.
You won't find any substance that I am aware of, that can take the place of an opiate, and believe me I've looked. Obviously importing a poppy plant would be a chore just to avoid the authorities, but its not exactly the best way to get your treatment either. Pharma painkillers are "natural enough" for me though, since pretty much all of them are synthesized from opium or various other alkaloids in the poppy plant.
I'm pretty happy with my Methadone, and its perfectly healthy for my liver compared to something with acetaminophen as well.. I had a 100mg/day Vicodin habbit at one point, and that did a lot more damage (if anything permanent) to my liver than a pure narcotic will ever do, I think. Its pretty much a necessity for me to stay on Methadone now, so I'm happy to kill two birds with one stone.
By and large I'm not in a lot of pain like other RLS people feel, except on rare ocassions when symptoms get bad. I fall in the group who has this indescribable feeling. Its just very bizzare, I have compared it to that feeling you get when you hit your funny bone riding a bike or something.. Just this very numb/intense tickly squirmy type pain that doesn't hurt so much as it is so annoying.
I'm on 15 - 20mg per day, so its a comparatively low dose versus someone in a drug treatment program who might be on 100mg or more.
I have tried 5HTP in the past and it did nothing at all for me, except make me want to puke every 5 minutes with momentary bursts of euphoria.. I think I've reached the point where I'm more concerned with my quality of life than trying the next best thing in treatment.
I've had chronic insomnia since childhood, and it wrecked any attempts at finding or holding down a real job in the real world. But now I am in bed by 8 or 9pm 99% of the week (today is friday but I'm heading there soon) and I actually sleep through the night, although mornings can sometimes be slow to start for me. But for the past 10 months or so I have been sleeping like a normal person for the first time in my life and I work 2 part time jobs.. The income is shit but I am doing so much better than where I came from, although I do admit I totally miss having Vicodin. Everyone has their favorite vice I guess, there is just nothing like it :-\
Also.. per your dopamine comments.. That has more to do with Parkinsons disease. RLS does not cause, or display symptoms related to muscle or nerve degeneration and loss of motor control, including involuntary movements. However many RLS patients often have a secondary condition for unknown reasons, called Periodic Limb Movement Disorder. This is what causes people to kick in their sleep, etc in excessive amounts. It is almost never diagnosed in single people outside of a sleep study for another reason.
Although it is unknown why PLMD sometimes shows up with RLS, there is no known research hinting that one condition causes the other in any way, or that RLS will progress into Parkinsons. The dopamine factor (since dopamine agonists like Requip and Mirapex will work for some patients) is another unexplained phenomenon at this point, much like the involvement of the Iron system.
If you're interested, this is pretty much the gold standard for RLS treatment.
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/79/7/916.full.pdf+html
Sometimes its a pain to even get doctors to look at it, which is utterly pathetic. The Mayo Clinic is a highly reputable and wonderful institution
furuoshiki:
I like Mayo clinic because they value eastern medicine along with traditional western science. They are very open minded.
My mother has always been a night person and an insomniac. (She hasn't been diagnosed with anything though. Some people's circadian rhythms are just different). She works nights for about 20 years now and it's worked out real well for her.
You might want to consider industries which require you to work at night like being a Correction Officer, Truck Driver, Train driver or Customer Service Call Center position.
5-HTP is definitely a mixed bag. It has a secondary effect on melatonin levels in the brain and it's efficacy and side effects depends on which season you are in.
For me my main vice was benadryl. It helped my allergies and gave me a euphoric feeling and actually increased the pleasure of orgasms. But my body doesn't like it any more so I can't take it, so I can sort of relate how you feel about the Vicodin. :-\
Doctors will only look at things that get them paid or kickbacks in some sort of way. Just like the pharmaceutical companies. While there are a significant amount of scams in all industries (including the natural remedies industry) there exist a considerably larger proportion in big pharma. However, thanks to Government legislation and FDA standards it's a bit easier to spot them these days compared to about 10 or 15 years ago.
If your RLS is amongst those with the "weird" feeling maybe an anti-convulsive could work. If my memory serves me, tingling sensations and "ghost" feelings in the limbs can be due to poor circulation and/or small convulsions within smooth muscle tissue.
I have had relatives with High Blood Pressure complain about symptoms similar to RLS/PLMD and they have big issues with blood clots and circulation. Numbness is most frequently due to poor blood circulation to the nerves in the part of the body in which the symptoms arise. A blood thinning drug/herb might provide some relief.
Try capsicum patches which they sell in every CVS...it is mainly used to cure pains but can also improve circulation in the area in which the patch is applied. The CVS brand is dirt cheap (last i have seen it's 99 cents). Remember, don't knock it until you try it! You will have to make yourself a guinea pig for a short while in order to find a good solution (whether it be pharmaceutical or natural).
To find what would help my energy levels it's taken about 2 years of experimentation and I've come up with a lot of options so far. I've tried everything from Rosemary to Burdock Root. (Teas, Pills, mixtures, etc). It may take a while but the more intensive and open-minded your search is the more bountiful your results will be.
Neco:
I'm not going to pretend to know how the average doctor operates, but I have seen enough of this "kickback" nonsense in the Healthcare debate to warn you to stay away from it, because I will get very defensive, very fast. My doctor was not like that, he was a real special human being, but he recently died in an accident and I am afraid I'll never find another person like him. He didn't even want to give me Methadone at first because he had no experience with it, but I eventually changed his mind by bringing him research from sources he told me he trusted, and I know he would agree now that it was the right decision to make. He always encouraged me to do my own research and was very engaging when it came to my care and looked at information when I brought it in.
Those doctors are very rare indeed, but I just don't see how more than a minority can truly be motivated by money.. My doctor once told me, when I joked about how rich he probably was, that Doctors make nothing compared to Dentists, and its most likely true. I wonder why no one attacks Dentists for charging an arm and a leg, just to get a consultation and not do any actual work.... bleh.
I'm pretty sure I don't have circulation issues, as I probably would have picked up on them by now. I am very self aware about whats going on. However I have tried both Gabapentin (Neurontin) and Lyrica in the past. Neurontin did absolutely nothing for my symptoms and I was practically bawling after I got off the phone telling them I had tried it for a week and nothing had changed, I just wanted my opiates back at that point. Lyrica is very expensive, but did show some minor improvement. I think it would work best if used in combination with something else, but there is literally nothing else for me to try, and the costs of Lyrica would keep me from being able to get it anyway.
I get #120 Methadone 5mg tablets that last me a month, at the local pharmacy. It only costs me $15 or less. You just can't compete with that when it comes to other medications that aren't even guaranteed to work.
Even your responses to my descriptions of my symptoms are an example of exactly how hard it is to communicate what RLS feels like, to other people. It literally is something most people will never understand until they experience it themself. There is a company out there who makes a Boot device people can wear, that when turned on is supposed to mimic what some RLS symptoms feel like. I don't know much about it, but I've heard its been demonstrated at conferences and stuff like that, and people don't seem to be able to tolerate having it turned on for very long. They're the lucky ones I guess.
I used to abuse Benadryl when I had blown through my Vicodin too early, not so much for recreation, but just to knock myself out. To me it didn't really feel anything like Vicodin, but it was an interesting experience depending on how much you took. Paradoxically, Dyphenhydramine (Benadryl) is one of the worst irritants ever when it comes to RLS. There are a lot of medications RLS patients cannot take, and sometimes even foods, especially for surgery, there are guides on the RLS Foundations web site, that tell doctors what medications to avoid during surgery because I guess a lot of the common ones, will severely aggravate the condition.
There's really nothing else I can do but hope they get some breakthroughs in research within the next few years, that at least can hint at some causes and potential new treatments.
I know people who have tried all kinds of stuff, including acupuncture, with little or no success.. Its really a field where people are playing catch-up. RLS was recognized as early as the 1600's, but we're only now starting to see serious research efforts, and serious recognition within the medical community.
I think most of that has only come about as the result of some of the top experts and researchers in the field having RLS themselves.
furuoshiki:
I'm sorry for your loss. I had a similar experience with my pediatrician. She was not only attractive but very smart and caring. She spent a great deal of time with me during my physical exam and was very caring. She just emanated warmth from her. You could tell she loved her profession and was very passionate. (30 minutes compared to the 10 minutes I get with my PCP these days as an adult) (I would totally have proposed to her if she weren't 15 years my senior and married... :D and I am savagely opposed to marriage as an institution in general...) Doctors like that are like diamonds in the rough.
She was probably the best physician I will ever have, unless I move out of New York City of course. When you say only the minority may be motivated by monetary gain you are incorrect. However, you are correct in that dentists make more than doctors. This is because dentists handle only oral issues and are specialists, therefore their insurance premiums should likely be lower. This is because the malpractice suits will be reduced considering you are only dealing with surgery and medicine affecting one part of the body.
There is a lot of economic pressure for doctors to make up for paying back student loans and high malpractice insurance premiums. Some are forced to advertise drugs in their office which is a legal way of getting a kick back, but others use deceptive methods which are illegal such as recommending/prescribing drugs for children or the elderly who aren't going to take the initiative to research whether the drug is right for them or not. For example my dermatologist/allergist consistently used me as a guinea pig for my eczema when i was a teen. She routinely tried to whore steroid drugs for my asthma maintenance to my mother instead of screening for nutritional deficiencies and natural solutions first.
She actively demonized my mother's home remedy approaches citing that I would be breathing with the assistance of an oxygen tank by adulthood if I did not treat the asthma with expensive pharmaceuticals consistently. Uh well 10 years later and...oh shit! I'm on a regular Omega-3 supplementation/Heavy Fish diet and I barely even use my rescue inhaler. I wonder what happened...?
Don't get me wrong I am generally anti-doctor. However, I know many doctors such as your former physician and mine do exist and they do care about their patients more than anything they may gain personally. At the same time you have to realize that generally this is like the assumption that "humans are generally good natured". For every nice person you meet there will be 10 assholes. I generally use that as a rule of thumb. Doctors will be no exception to this rule naturally.
As far as Methadone goes just watch your heart. And Benadryl definitely isn't good for anyone with any neurological disorders. I believe it aggravates 5-HT pathways in the brain and CNS.
Try chlorophenirame maleate. I have been using it since I developed an intolerance for Benadryl.
Also keep in mind circulation issues are often sub clinical. Some don't have symptoms for a while or until old age. I am not sure if there is a way to test for poor circulation, since my circulation has always been above average for the most part due to genetics.
I'm sorry if I came across as an insensitive asshole regarding the Doctor thing, I know there are plenty of good doctors out there, but the environmental conditions for doctors to be happy with their professions just aren't there....the proliferation of HMOs along with heavy taxation and regulation on small business owners and those who make in the $100,000 range is making being a doctor independently a very hard and a complicated thing these days.
Also you are right. I will never know most likely how RLS feels and you will probably never know what it feels like to have an asthma attack. However, we can still recommend things to each other because often unlike pharmaceuticals...h erbal medicine often address a wider variety of problems..
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version