Windows 7 x64 & Classic/Win95/98-era Gaming Compatibility

[CatSoup]

Hey all.  I know we have a few Win7 topics, but none really focused on something I'm really interested:  older game compatibility.

I'm talking about older DOS games, and "newer" Win95/98 games like Final Fantasy 7 and Final Fantasy 8 (PC versions).  Basically, I really like having these games available to play any time, since the PC versions had some graphic enhancements, etc.  You could also use hacks to make some geometry/text/etc higher resolution, which you can't do in the PSX emulated versions.  However, these games came out when video cards were just becoming commonplace.  Many of them have finicky code that presumes you have an old Nvidia or 3dFX (!) chip, and took some work to even get them to work on XP.  Now, is that all broken again in Win7?

I'm on XP (32bit) right now and thinking about going to Win7 x64.  I guess there are two main issues and one general issue: 

1.  Does the upgrade to Win7 from XP create a lot of problems (compared to XP compatibility) with these games?  I have a student Professional Win7 license, so I think I have XP Mode (see chart) available.  I think(?) XP Mode is basically just a virtual machine install (Wikipedia), though.  Seems like compatibility would be limited by the virtual machine's virtual hardware, which may not be the right mix to be compatible. 

2.  Does the change from 32-bit to 64-bit lower compatibility for these games? 

3.  Does either of these changes result in significant performance drops, even if ultimately the games "work"?

As a side note, I know there's no direct upgrade from XP to 7, but has anyone tried upgrading to Vista as an intermediary, then to 7?  Does that preserve any programs?  Sounds crazy, but I've got so much stuff installed that I'd be literally looking at months of free time to get things back to "normal." 

(I'm running a rock solid XP installation now that, literally, is the same upgraded installation from a 1996 install spanning Win95->98->98SE->XP  .  It's survived 2 HD transplants, 3 mobo changes, 3 CPU changes, and 4 video card upgrades.  Never really tried, but a clean install was always a last resort I never really had to use.)

[GoGeTa006]

32 to 64 will drastically change your compatibility.
sadly there are plenty of games that arent compatible with 64bit OS. specially the older ones

from XP to 7 I dont think theres much of a hassle since (IIRC) Windows 7 has an XP emulator or something like that.

[sdedalus83]

from XP to 7 I dont think theres much of a hassle since (IIRC) Windows 7 has an XP emulator or something like that.

It won't work with a lot of games.  VMware Player is a much better option.  You can also create a virtual machine using an image of your current XP installation with vConvert.

[zherok]

XP Mode is definitely not meant for games, there's no 3D acceleration.

Personally I'd just emulate it. The PC version isn't notably better looking.

[fohfoh]

I agree. It's not the XP to 7 that's going to be the biggest issue, but 32bit to 64bit that's going to be the big issue.

As stated. Use VM. 7 is quite the improvement from XP, but throwing in VM gives you the best of both worlds.

[CatSoup]

It won't work with a lot of games.  VMware Player is a much better option.  You can also create a virtual machine using an image of your current XP installation with vConvert.

vConvert...NICE!  I might just make a VM image anyway, that's really cool.

To everyone who is raising the alert about 32-to-64-bit compatibility problems:  Thanks! 

Do any of you have specific games you've had trouble with?  Was it difficult to solve them (whether you used a VM or not)?  I'm just trying to to gauge the level of headache, because VM compatibility itself seems like it'd be a little iffy...

[CatSoup]

XP Mode is definitely not meant for games, there's no 3D acceleration.

Personally I'd just emulate it. The PC version isn't notably better looking.

That's a good bit of info--no 3D acceleration in VM?  Ouch.  Know of any attempts to include early 3D hardware emulation in VMs?

I know some emulators do well with smartly upconverting console content (E.g., N64 texture addon packs for Zelda: OOT and Mario 64), but with all the PC-only tweaks I've used, I think FF7 and FF8 definitely look better than an emulated PSX version.  Might just be missing an optimization or two, but the console often results in more blurry, jarring messes when upconverting low-res textures to match higher resolution geometry.  At least, that's my impression.

But yeah, FF7 and 8 are just the two notable examples.  I'm also thinking of other same-era stuff that has been hard to keep running, like Starcraft, Carmageddon TDR2K, Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3, Age of Empires II, etc...  

Starcraft and AoE II also show another problem: Networking from the early days of gaming.  You need Hamachi to play SC online nowadays.  Would internet tunneling/networking even work in a VM?

[zherok]

That's a good bit of info--no 3D acceleration in VM?  Ouch.  Know of any attempts to include early 3D hardware emulation in VMs?

Nope, that's about the extent of my knowledge on virtualization; the included xp mode with professional on up is meant primarily for legacy apps in business and not to play old 3D games with. If you're talking DOS era games you could DOSBox them instead, but I don't know much more than that. I have Home Premium and Sony has decided for unfathomable reasons to lock virtualization as an option on Vaios, so even if I wanted to...

I know some emulators do well with smartly upconverting console content (E.g., N64 texture addon packs for Zelda: OOT and Mario 64), but with all the PC-only tweaks I've used, I think FF7 and FF8 definitely look better than an emulated PSX version.  Might just be missing an optimization or two, but the console often results in more blurry, jarring messes when upconverting low-res textures to match higher resolution geometry.  At least, that's my impression.

I figure that regardless of texture resolution Cloud is going to look like he's made of blocks, but eh, to each his own. Emulation is so much less hassle though, and support for a PSX emulator is going to be a hell of a lot better than 21 year old Square PC game.

But yeah, FF7 and 8 are just the two notable examples.  I'm also thinking of other same-era stuff that has been hard to keep running, like Starcraft, Carmageddon TDR2K, Heroes of Might and Magic 2/3, Age of Empires II, etc...

Starcraft and AoE II also show another problem: Networking from the early days of gaming.  You need Hamachi to play SC online nowadays.  Would internet tunneling/networking even work in a VM?

I ran Diablo 1 the other day with no issues. Now, if you're talking IPX connections, then yes, its a pain in the ass. Vista on up has no native IPX support. But battle.net is perfectly viable for network games. Only thing that stopped us from playing it is apparently you can't all join battle.net on the same ip. But otherwise the game worked flawlessly. You won't need to virtualize it.

I assume the same holds true for Starcraft. Diablo II as well, and if I recall you've probably got better networking options than the older titles. The other ones I haven't tried in 7. AoE2 might be a problem, but last I tried it was in Vista, and I think I was having Hamachi issues...

[Neco]

http://www.dosbox.com/

I can't believe no one has mentioned this.   The site also has a compatibility list, as well as a general progress graph of various emulation aspects (CPU's, special modes, etc)  and there are tens of GUI's available for it.

[GoGeTa006]

Windows 7 is now giving me crap about "Authentic microsoft software" every time i open a MS program (paint, minesweeper etc)

[psyren]

Windows 7 is now giving me crap about "Authentic microsoft software" every time i open a MS program (paint, minesweeper etc)

Are you running a pirated/non-activated version?

[GoGeTa006]

Windows 7 is now giving me crap about "Authentic microsoft software" every time i open a MS program (paint, minesweeper etc)

Are you running a pirated/non-activated version?

its supposed to be activated, IIRC I got that "thanks for using genuine microsoft software" confirmation.

[zherok]

http://www.dosbox.com/

I can't believe no one has mentioned this.   The site also has a compatibility list, as well as a general progress graph of various emulation aspects (CPU's, special modes, etc)  and there are tens of GUI's available for it.

Well, to be fair, of the games he mentioned, all but Carmmaggeddon and HoMM2 were Windows-only games. You won't be running Starcraft in DOSBox. But for those games, yeah, definitely better to use DOSBox than virtualize XP to run a DOS game.

[DaggerLite]

I recommend dual booting, installing XP 32-bit first, then Win7 64-bit afterwards. Remember to do this on separate partitions or separate drives. Using XP-mode in Win7 64-bit, it would still be XP 64-bit which is not very compatible with older programs.

As some other's said, running x86 games with x64 is not possible unless the game is pretty simple or depends on an outside engine to run, in which case the engine would have to be compatible. Note: I didn't bother reading all replies in-depth. Also, unless you currently have 4+ GB of RAM, 64-bit is not very useful. Almost anything that is available in x64 is also available in x86 code today, though this will probably change in the distant future.

Tip: Make sure in advance that your hardware is supported by Win7. You might find unofficial drivers that work, but do so in advance rather than installing a system that can't automatically find your working drivers.

[zherok]

As some other's said, running x86 games with x64 is not possible unless the game is pretty simple or depends on an outside engine to run, in which case the engine would have to be compatible. Note: I didn't bother reading all replies in-depth. Also, unless you currently have 4+ GB of RAM, 64-bit is not very useful. Almost anything that is available in x64 is also available in x86 code today, though this will probably change in the distant future.

I've yet to run into a modern game that wouldn't run in x64. That doesn't mean there aren't any, but as you said, it's not like x64 bit software is common. For the most part that doesn't matter though. They run fine in 32-bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOW64

Older games run into problems, like the fact that x64 has no 16-bit support. But your dual booting suggestion is a better solution than opting for the 32-bit version of Windows 7.

[Neco]

http://www.dosbox.com/

I can't believe no one has mentioned this.   The site also has a compatibility list, as well as a general progress graph of various emulation aspects (CPU's, special modes, etc)  and there are tens of GUI's available for it.

Well, to be fair, of the games he mentioned, all but Carmmaggeddon and HoMM2 were Windows-only games. You won't be running Starcraft in DOSBox. But for those games, yeah, definitely better to use DOSBox than virtualize XP to run a DOS game.

Well yeah, seeing as the OP said he wanted to run DOS Games too...

[CatSoup]

I recommend dual booting, installing XP 32-bit first, then Win7 64-bit afterwards. Remember to do this on separate partitions or separate drives. Using XP-mode in Win7 64-bit, it would still be XP 64-bit which is not very compatible with older programs.

Thanks for the additional suggestions, guys!  Yes, DOSBox is on my radar.  I wonder if sooner or later someone will make a games-compatibility VM for early windows, or something similar.  

Wow, 64-bit Win7 XP Mode will be 64-bit XP?  That really sucks.  I wonder when/if they'll find a workaround to virtualize 32-bit hardware on a 64-bit OS.  In light of all of this, dual booting seems like the only reliable compatibility option...

[Neco]

There is an open source OS project thats been going on for a couple years.  I'm not sure of its progress and the name escapes me at the moment, but it was supposed to be made with the aim of  being an alternative to Windows.   Able to run windows programs, etc.   At the time I think it was a 32-bit project, not sure if they have branched it into an x64 or  are going pure x64 or anything like that.

But it would be great for a lot of old games that need a 32-bit Windows OS.    I think it was even planned to have a DirectX alternative as well.  I'll try and find the info on it again and get a link.

[sdedalus83]

It's called ReactOS and it's still many years from being truly usable.

[Neco]

Yeah that's it.   http://reactos.org

Still in Alpha, but its something worth watching as time goes on.   One day it may be a suitable Alternative to  Windows,  and in a way  something like Linux could never accomplish (i.e Being able to run windows programs natively).

I just never can stick with Linux.  I rely too much on Windows only apps,  when even if OSS versions are available,  just don't compare in features, or having a shitty looking GUI.

But hey, 15 years from now, if someone wants to play  games and can't even get an older version of Windows to install,  or don't want to use Windows,  maybe this will be able to step up to the plate.