Author Topic: Adventures in Computing  (Read 4163 times)

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 07:24:34 AM »
It appears that 'I can has win...twice'.

Managed to get all of the .torrent files from the drive holding my OS and I also got all of my e-mail.

Only small wins I know, but wins none the less.

Now to work out how to tell bittorrent that some files have been moved from their original download folder...  ??? (yes, I know check the FAQ)

Found a proggy on the interweb that *might* let me fix the mistake I made with my drive... I hope.

edit: I can has MOAR win! Managed to get most of the torrents seeding again (does happy dance), but have definately lost several anime series, most notably 'Darker Than Black', which I believe 'funimation' now has the license for, darn it.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:34:42 AM by Micharus »
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline vuzedome

  • Member
  • Posts: 6374
  • Reppuzan~!
  • Awards Winner of the BakaBT Mahjong tournament 2010
    • GoGreenToday
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2010, 08:54:59 AM »
Overclock that i5!! This baby easily hits the 4 with just air cooling, but don't depend on the stock cooler and instead go after-market.

I don't plan to go higher than this anytime soon.
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 11:41:31 AM by vuzedome »
BBT Ika Musume Fan Club Member #000044   
Misaka Mikoto Fan Club Member #000044
BBT Duke Nukem Fan Club Member #0000002

Offline mizore

  • Member
  • Posts: 760
  • Joō Heika to Cuteness Gods, Desu~
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2010, 06:12:38 PM »
Don't forget, the i5's lose a memory channel that the i7 offers.

Mmmmmmmmmmm, memory.

Offline mizore

  • Member
  • Posts: 760
  • Joō Heika to Cuteness Gods, Desu~
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2010, 06:38:05 PM »
Compared to what I was running, a 3ghz single core, the i5 750 is mind blastingly fast, even if it is 'only' 2.6ghz.
I have seen the 'Atomic' magazine where they overclock this CPU to 3+ghz using the stock cooler, but I don't think I want to mess with overclocking yet, not until I am *really* sure I'm not going to break it.  ;D

I've seen the i5 run fine at 4 Ghz.  The problem with that, however, is you may very well be degrading performance by overclocking. :-\

Offline kureshii

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 4485
  • May typeset edited light novels if asked nicely.
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 01:35:41 AM »
Don't forget, the i5's lose a memory channel that the i7 offers.

Mmmmmmmmmmm, memory.
Only the LGA1366 i7s get triple-channel DDR3 though; the LGA1156 i7s are dual-channel. Not something people would notice, looking at application performance on both.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 05:02:11 AM by kureshii »

Offline mizore

  • Member
  • Posts: 760
  • Joō Heika to Cuteness Gods, Desu~
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2010, 04:47:26 AM »
Only the LGA1366 i7s get triple-channel DDR3 though, the LGA1156 i7s are dual-channel. Not something most people would notice, looking at application performance on both.

Fixed.

Oops... I totally should have specified that.  :-\  <edit> Oh, you can bet I noticed a difference!  ;) But, not everyone uses the same type of software, etc.



Maybe I should explain what I meant about overclocking as well....  It'll end up being tl;dr, tho.  I had to explain it elsewhere to someone that apparently couldn't grasp the speedstepping issues with Nehelem/Westmere interrupts.  Took up a lot of space, lulz.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 04:54:32 AM by mizore »

Offline mizore

  • Member
  • Posts: 760
  • Joō Heika to Cuteness Gods, Desu~
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 05:08:26 AM »
Ok, to clarify the issues seen with overclocking... (tl;dr warning)

Well, with minimal OC's, I'd expect (miniscule) performance gains to be relatively unhindered. A meager .4 Ghz would likely be fine.  However, above that would likely begin to cause speedstepping issues. 

OC issues degrade performance in these proc's by means of the CPU spamming itself with C1E/C6 interrupts.  Nehelem/Westmere PCU (not a typo - Power Control Unit) has the ability to override OS/ACPI/APIC requests with its own instructions unless you turn off power staging in your BIOS... and level of control in that regard differs greatly from one mobo to another.

Speedstepping technically goes back to the Pentium-3 (even in the desktop variants though laptops had far more control) and in the Core & Core2 era gained a fair amount of control over not just clock (c-states) but also voltage (p-states or power.) Technically this is supposed to work via ACPI (via the hardware APIC controller) and is under OS control, but bios profiles already had the ability to override ACPI/OS power control (by reducing the features available) and so technically supersedes it.  Normally at the very least a cpu core has 2 states: C0 (active) and C1 (idle, no work) but in the 'old' cpu's (going back to the Pentium 2/3) more idle states were introduced which gave the ability to reduce power and even disable portions of the cpu (cache and so on) as the sleep got 'deeper'. With Pentium-M (in mobile form) and the Core/Core2 era the C-states were expanded to cover C0 through C5 (5 sleep levels) and several P-states, but even in C5 cores were active.

Now, with the addition of a C6 state (referred to as "core-parking"), the core basically SHUTS OFF.  Switching back from this state takes much longer than the other preceding levels. Nehelem also added more voltage control ("Enhanced" EIST) and brings a new C1 state called C1E, which means that the cpu can throttle voltage even in the first sleep state now (which wasn't possible before).

Interestingly, with Nehelem Intel technically went 'backwards' a bit and created a 486-sized chunk of on-chip PLL-based logic to control power states. Now, in addition to throttling cores (with effects on their shared cache), this opened up the door to a lot more.

Unfortunately, this also means the Nehelem PCU (again, not a typo) can override OS (and ACPI) level settings if it thinks it has a better idea of how to save power AND/OR use resources for turbo on a core or two. Ie, turbo is completely transparent to the OS and many of the C-state changes (to lower 'sleep' states) may occur even if you set power profiles in the OS to be high performance. Incidentally you don't have "as much" control over power profiles in windows, but the main overall power profiles DO engage different cpu & hardware features (Mobile, Desktop Balanced, Desktop Power saving & Desktop High Performance are the most common on Win7) and you can dig in and customize cpu & hardware power saving features under each plan.

OC'ing may in fact disable certain features (Turbo or advanced sleep states that use a combination of P & C states) since you're interacting (at the very least) with the default p-states (voltage) and the thermal envelope (voltage=heat). Turbo modes are dependent on a cpu staying within its overall operating specs or TDP (turbo works by adjusting the multiplier up 1-2 steps depending on how much 'headroom' the PCU thinks there is.) So at the very least overclocking may affect turbo modes (and I know for a fact that on some motherboards using a more aggressive overclocking profile disables turbo, but this I suspect is VENDOR or at least BIOS specific). But when ignoring overclocking features, there seems to be a lot of variety on what BIOS makers (and the motherboard makers who customize the bios) are exposing for end-user control over C-states & P-states. You might be able to control all C & P states individually (including even specifying voltages if you're overclocking) with allowance of control.

Of course, disabling Turbo is generally the suggested precursor to OC'ing.  However, this only disallows the possibility of some C6 interrupts.  Also, there is no guarantee that BIOS-level (certainly not OS) control can completely preempt PCU instructions (as I hinted earlier).

So, keeping Turbo in mind, look back to the cases where the first sleep state (C1) and the lower sleep states (especially C6) are affecting cpu performance for applications that rely on raw performance.  There are several factors here again, the first of which is how long sleep states C1 through C6 take to wake up.  Reference this Xbit labs section on "Power Management and Turbo Mode" in their "First Look at Nehalem Microarchitecture" article, and check this table. Look at the row for 'wakeup time' and also take note of the part that says "Core Caches=flushed" for C3 through C6 after that.  This alone has enough impact on performance that when using a machine in a heavy session, disabling speedstepping/EIST altogether can gain as much performance (if not more) as overclocking can, simply by insuring that all parts of the cpu are online at all times.  Now add on the fact that even when you are manually disabling things, Nehelem's PCU has the ability to still decide what to do...

But things seem to be even more interesting with C1E & C6 specifically....

There seem to be several cpu-errata with all the Nehelem cpu's in regards to handling of C6 (look up Bloomfield's errata list and check for 'spurious interrupts' in the pdf).  There seems to be cases where idle cores actually spam so many interrupts that they were throttling network performance on Xeon machines (where the PCI/PCIe bus's sensitivity to having access to the cpu via interrupt requests shows issues that casual users should, in theory, never notice).  What this means is that the Power Control Unit on Nehelem era cpu's (and now Westmere) has the ability to generate interrupts that are handled BEFORE most items on the PCI & PCIe bus (they're a higher priority). So, when the PCU decides a core needs to sleep before the handling of the i/o is done, and, if the core needs to be brought back online, this of course generates yet another interrupt which again prevents the handling of the i/o interrupt... and handling continually degrades.

As for C1E, there seems to also be an effect on the IRQ traffic generated for the 'highest level' of sleep on nehelem (the p-state as well as c-state change that occurs seems to degrade audio i/o & bus-dependant system performance more than the older 'C1' states that existed before nehelem).  So, the recommendations right now from system builders are to disable C1E & C6 (or just disable speedstepping & Enhanced EIST in your BIOS) provided you know your cooling system is adequate AND your system's airflow is sufficient. This is incredibly important for people, like myself, that handle a large number of audio tracks concurrently at low latencies stacked on top of the scheduling necessities of plugin use.

Even Mac users were noticing issues... and it showed up with an application as simple as iTunes... when doing simple audio playback, something was sending core temps in the extremes regardless of the fact that not much cpu usage was technically occuring.  And while Apple issued a patch with the usual lack of technical info, the timing just happened to be coincident with a patch from MS for Server2008 that addressed a similar issue with networking & C6-sleep states colliding when cores were parking (lulz).  The solution in both cases (before the patches) was to disable C6 (and C1E for other reasons), but of course you can't do that on a Mac since you don't have access to BIOS style features with Apple's EFI implementation so...

Outside of those user groups, the number of audio & networking/raid users affected by the C6 'core parking' issue was not significant enough for either MS or even the tech review sites to have caught on.  But there are a few audio builders (yours truly;)) and Mac users who are aware of the effect that C1E/C6 had on their performance, and now I've seen discussion on every music forum I frequent about it (since this is our current generation).  However, what is lacking is consensus. Each BIOS offers different features, and overclocking features seem to expose even more (different) features... so there's little consensus on what the 'best' approach actually is: Disable C6; Disable C1E & C6 but leave turbo active; or disable everything altogether to leave the cpu in a single but very predictable/reliable state.

So it's not overclocking PER SE that will degrade performance, but different overclocking features might be exposed that affect what you see differently.  And, regardless of whether you do or do not OC, C6 (and C1E) seem to have a degrading effect on users who are pushing their systems the furthest.

Whew!  That's gotta be my longest post I've ever written on BBT... definitely not my longest ever, tho.  :P

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 05:24:29 AM »
EEP!

Wall of text! I will read that post....eventually.

Ah, well, I was trying to avoid this thread becoming over 'technical', so that it wouldn't be moved to the technology section, but with that last post it may very well be moved.  ;D

No matter.

I have *no* plans to overclock my current computer, from what I've seen so far, it just doesn't need it.

Fired up WoW on it the other day.... set everything to max and it didn't even flinch, you could almost see the i5 and the video card saying 'this is toooo easy'.

It's nice being able to sit on a mount or run around the place and see my own shadow and all the other little things that I can see that make playing WoW that tiny bit more fun, not to mention that watching anime is better too.

edit: something makes me think this thread has been hi-jacked  :P
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 08:48:49 AM by Micharus »
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline kureshii

  • Former Staff
  • Member
  • Posts: 4485
  • May typeset edited light novels if asked nicely.
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2010, 05:46:50 AM »
Hmm, that's the first time I've heard of the C6 issue. A little googling reveals that there seems to be a regfix for Win 7 that seems to alleviate this somewhat, but I can't test it since I don't use Win 7.

Now, to see if there's a way to measure the C6 interruption rate on my i5...

Offline vuzedome

  • Member
  • Posts: 6374
  • Reppuzan~!
  • Awards Winner of the BakaBT Mahjong tournament 2010
    • GoGreenToday
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 09:11:03 AM »
I'd left those halt instructions stuff in the bios to "disabled".
I only oc'ed my i5 to go with the xmp profile.

BBT Ika Musume Fan Club Member #000044   
Misaka Mikoto Fan Club Member #000044
BBT Duke Nukem Fan Club Member #0000002

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2010, 02:05:06 PM »
Computers can be funny things, huh.

Had to take it back today after having had it for around a week.

It started to crash/freeze randomly..... there was literally no pattern to the freeze.

I spent a few frustrating days roaming various forums and trying a few things.

In the end the only thing I actually managed to do is update the bios to the most current version.

With a bit of luck, I should have it back tomorrow (wednesday) or the next day.

In the meantime I decided to mess around with my old Acer laptop.
As you can see, I managed to get it to hook up to the 'net, wonder of wonders.

It's not great, but it's lots better than not having 'net access at all and I can play "Freelancer" (discovery mod) on it as well, all effects turned down tho, but it's still fun and I managed to get the laptop to talk to my new monitor, an Asus VW266H.
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline vuzedome

  • Member
  • Posts: 6374
  • Reppuzan~!
  • Awards Winner of the BakaBT Mahjong tournament 2010
    • GoGreenToday
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2010, 11:14:33 PM »
Bad drivers? Defective hard drive? Heating?
BBT Ika Musume Fan Club Member #000044   
Misaka Mikoto Fan Club Member #000044
BBT Duke Nukem Fan Club Member #0000002

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2010, 08:36:11 AM »
Bad drivers? Defective hard drive? Heating?

Turns out it was an "I D 10 T" fault....

It appears that the problems were caused by installing Windoze XP over the top of an old windoze install, this will on the odd occasion cause random freezes among other problems.

Fortunately, the guys at the computer shop were tolerant of the fact that it was probably my fault and didn't rub my nose it.
I ended up paying only $55 (Australian) for my sins and they did a full CLEAN re-install for me.

So far it's been behaving itself, it hasn't crashed yet. The current plan is to leave it on overnight, like I normally do. If it's going to crash, it'll do it then.

Must re-seed all the torrents that I had running before then.
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2010, 07:40:43 AM »
BAH!  >:( >:(

Crashed overnight and a few times since then.

It has to be a software problem and there are only a few programs that have been installed/upgraded since I got the new PC.

At this point I am checking out ZASS (Zone Alarm Security Suite) to see if it is causing problems. From what I've seen on the forums the current version of ZASS is causing some people problems, problems that sound exactly like the ones I am having.

As luck would have it, I still have the install programs for the previous version of ZASS, so I've uninstalled the current version and installed the previous version of it.

If it turns out that it's not ZASS, then the next program to check is the driver/utility package for the new video card (Sapphire Radeon HD 5770).
The 'Catalyst Control Centre' is the other program that may be causing dramas.

The plan will be to uninstall both the drivers and the CCC, then re-install the reference driver pack.
 
Of course this means that won't be able to 'tweak' the video card, but that's not going to matter too much as it is a pretty good card anyhow. 1gb ram ftw!
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2010, 01:32:26 AM »
Last update!

You know what that means..... it's fixed.  :D :D

Turns out it was Zone Alarm Security Suite at fault.

After uninstalling the current version of it and then re-installing the previous version, my PC ran all night without a hiccup.

So, now I'll be keeping an eye on the ZA site to see when the next version is coming out and hopefully it will be 'bug free'.
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline Stsin

  • Member
  • Posts: 1948
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2010, 02:56:46 PM »
How's your HD5770 doing?

While no problems during games, I would sometimes get driver resets or the rare striped screen in 2D mode.
Some suggestions to fix if have that problem:
http://www.ngohq.com/news/17176-workarounds-for-radeon-hd-5000-series-vertical-stripes-issue.html

I ended up having to edit an overdrive xml profile so that the 2D CoreClockTarget is at 40000 and MemClockTarget at  120000 with CoreVoltageTarget at 1000.  These are the minimum values.  No problems with this...but if it ever does occur again, will up the voltage to 1.2 as some suggested.

I think the target of 157mhz core with low mem and voltage settings when using 2D is too low for my system (or my card).  Since I'm using 1080p.  And noticed it occurs when I have many things running at the same time, like multiple browsers with flash, multiple gadgets running animations, while watching a 1080p video.

Though I haven't had any problems since, I do wish this would be fixed in a driver update.

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2010, 10:22:17 PM »
No problems so far, but then I haven't 'unlocked' the 'Overdrive' option.

At this point I don't think I'll need to use the overclocking utility, most of the games I have just don't need as much power as the HD5770 already has.

Installed 'Need For Speed: Underground' for a few laughs last night and discovered that the graphics are pretty nice.....with everything turned on.

It's the first time I've been able to play the game with *all* of the bells and whistles cranked up, without having the game slowdown in the graphically intensive areas.

As for the 'striped screen' I haven't seen that, I probably will eventually.

The driver 're-set' is actually mentioned in CCC, not sure exactly where, but I have seen something that refers to it.
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002

Offline kostya

  • Member
  • Posts: 181
  • Rar
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2010, 04:50:15 AM »
Turns out it was Zone Alarm Security Suite at fault.
You got off lucky. I tired to install ZA firewall on my current machine and it caused compatibility issues with my graphics drivers. I was lucky that I had a second card in the machine because it is always fun when you reboot your computer and one of your displays does not come on. Fun hour of debugging to try to figure out how I broke my driver before I thought to try to uninstall the firewall and found that to be the issue.

Offline Klocknov

  • Member
  • Posts: 1176
  • 次に魅力を消えます。彼らの左側ですか?
    • Klocknov's Blog!
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2010, 07:57:45 AM »
Turns out it was Zone Alarm Security Suite at fault.
You got off lucky. I tired to install ZA firewall on my current machine and it caused compatibility issues with my graphics drivers. I was lucky that I had a second card in the machine because it is always fun when you reboot your computer and one of your displays does not come on. Fun hour of debugging to try to figure out how I broke my driver before I thought to try to uninstall the firewall and found that to be the issue.
Sounds like what happened to me when I tried to install the newest update to Comodo on my other machice. Also had the same problem with ZA awhile back and that is ultimately what pushed me away from them.
When Cookies become alcoholics the world has issues, oh wait that has already happened!
When I was growing up I wanted to become a queen, now that I did, I have to avoid brats chasing me with bats.
When the charm wears off, what do you have then?

Offline Micharus

  • Member
  • Posts: 1399
Re: Adventures in Computing
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2010, 01:35:20 PM »
Well, in defense of ZA, I have been using it as a firewall for a number of years now, both the 'free' version and the 'paid for' version and have only had problems with it twice.

The first time it was killing my 'net connection of a regular basis, literally turning it off, but it wasn't making the computer do anything else, so it wasn't a major problem and a 'roll back' fixed it.

The second time was the one I just experienced and this was probably the worst by far, as it actually cost me money.

I took the computer back to get it tested.

Of course they didn't hook it up to the 'net, so it didn't crash and they were testing the hardware which came through with flying colors.

Thank god they only hit me for $55 (Australian).

A 'roll back' to the previous version of ZA also fixed this problem.

Two problems in a half a dozen years? Not a bad record I'd say, seeing as most games that come out require a patch or something to fix flaws in them  ;)

Guess who is going to be keeping the setup files for several version of ZA safely tucked away on a CD somewhere...
Micharus
My reviews of Anime I have watched recently
Micharus's Animelist
BBT Ika Musume Fanclub Member #000002