Honorifics

[Hizoka003]

just curious where most of you guys stand on Honorifics in subs

Personally i like the -san -sama -dono -chan ect left on, i dislike when they try to translate them into Mr and Lord and whatnot

[SeventyX7]

In subs, I prefer honorifics.  It conveys information that is lost in translation when you start using western "honorifics."

However, for dubs, usually westernized bastardized western titles are better.  Just sounds odd otherwise.

[Hizoka003]

In subs, I prefer honorifics.  It conveys information that is lost in translation when you start using western "honorifics."

However, for dubs, usually westernized bastardized western titles are better.  Just sounds odd otherwise.

i would agree if i ever even attempted to watch a dub... dub are evil and should be removed from the world IMO

[relic2279]

Honorifics convey information about the speaker, and the intended listener. It's hard to translate the difference between a few of them. If someone is trying to learn Japanese, or wants to learn about the culture, I would suggest keeping them. If someone doesn't care about learning or Japanese culture, then honorifics might be a minor nuisance. It's purely opinion based.

[nstgc]

Without writing the script you can't get rid of them without losing something with the exception of anime in which the characters don't use them in the original Japanese. When honorifics are used as they normally would be in Japan, they can't be removed.

"So we'll replace -san with Mr or Ms. If the person uses -chan or -kun we'll simply leave it off"
"but if there is a case where someone doesn't use honorifics at all?"
"Then we leave that off"
"but the absence of an hornific has meaning as well."
"Well, we'll rewrite the script"

And thus 4kids is born.

[Scudworth]

I like the honorifics left on myself.
But lets not have this turn into another dub vs sub discussion.

[Arveene]

I prefer on because I find it a bit distracting when I hear them but don't see them. To be honest, I could deal with either or though.

Preemptive warning: First person who turns this into a sub vs dub, funimation/4kids/<insert licensing company here> qq thread enjoys a vacation.

[SeventyX7]

I didn't mean to turn it into a debate on whether subs or dubs are better, I merely wanted to express that whether honorifics are good, to me, depends on whether we're talking subs or dubs.

I prefer on because I find it a bit distracting when I hear them but don't see them. To be honest, I could deal with either or though.

This is a big reason why I prefer it for subs, but don't for dubs.

[nstgc]

I prefer on because I find it a bit distracting when I hear them but don't see them. To be honest, I could deal with either or though.

I sort of agree. I don't find it that distracting. I do get really annoyed when they replace "onii-san" with "brother" especially when it doesn't fit.

[bobjoe]

I prefer honorific suffixes, onii/onee stuff, etc. to be left on. If it's not there, I can deal with it, because I can just hear how they said it for myself, but if the translator tries to idiotically translate it into an English term, I end up getting distracted thinking about how stupid the translation sounds.

There is at least ONE instance where I would prefer the westernization of such terms, though, and that is when the context is clearly meant to be western itself. A show that is supposed to be about Americans of Europeans speaking English, German, French, etc., for example, like Spice and Wolf, is probably better off with western-style names and titles.

[Spanks]

I prefer on because I find it a bit distracting when I hear them but don't see them. To be honest, I could deal with either or though.

I don't mind if they remove the honorifics as I hear them most of the time and know what they mean.

[Klocknov]

I will say it all depends on the context. In most cases I would say yes I do prefer honorifics, but as someone stated already when the show is obviously taking place outside of Japan then it gives an odd feel to it at times. Also in English dubs they sound really odd, but same with some of the translations they try so it is could of a both way area there.

With subs I would prefer them to follow the Japanese script and if they did have honorifics in the show I would prefer them in the subs. Though as stated above when it is obviously in a different country it does sort of get odd seeing them pop-up at first. So in the long run I can't say I prefer them there or not since it all depends on many different factors.

I prefer on because I find it a bit distracting when I hear them but don't see them. To be honest, I could deal with either or though.

I don't mind if they remove the honorifics as I hear them most of the time and know what they mean.

I don't find it annoying since as spanks said here you still know they are there. I prefer them there though since that makes it easier to read when you hear it.

[Enzedder]

I enjoy the honorifics and definitely think they should remain in subs. The only exception to this would be anime based outside Japan I think since reading it sounds more correct however leaving them on there is fine too.

For example IDWS subs of Heroman remove the honorifics and replace Onii-chan with my brother or Will depending on the situation. Since the story is set on West Coast USA I think it is fine for that since if they were speaking english, like they would be on the West Coast, then it would be something like that anyway.

Dubs I have only watched a few but it doesn't sound right if they use it since its not part of the language its being spoken in.

[erious]

Honorifics in dubs are completely retarded. But then again, a lot of dubs are too(not all though, that's highly dependant on the show).
In subs/manga however, I say leave them on, as long as they are used by Japanese people/fantasy equivalent of Japanese people.
For me, a big part of enjoying things produced by other cultures, is actually learning about those cultures. That's why I absolutely despise localizing things too much. People narrow-minded enough to be bothered by things that don't fit in their little cultural circle are a mystery to me. Honorifcs are actually borderline here, I'm more bothered by things like translating currency(most retarded thing I've seen recently), food names and other things that don't actually have a clear equivalent in the language they are being translated to. Sure, the function or general meaning might be the same, but significance, usage, and details differ. Is it really so hard to learn new things? I don't think so.

[nstgc]

Just because something takes place in a country where honorifics don't exist (I can't think of any aside from Japan) doesn't mean they aren't useful. The orignal language, nearly 100% of the time, will be Japanese. Even in the case of something like Black Lagoon. Often times, if a show takes place in a very western location (such as BL even though it takes place in Vietnam) they still will sometime use normal Japanese. BL is not one such example, but it does happen.

All that matters is if it can be properly translated. In the case of Black Lagoon or Hellsing, then it ends up being fine. I think the only time you here a honorific in Hellsing is from Walter when he says "Integra-sama" which can easily, and accurately, be translated as "Sir Integra" (even though Integra is a woman).

[Hizoka003]

Just because something takes place in a country where honorifics don't exist (I can't think of any aside from Japan) doesn't mean they aren't useful. The orignal language, nearly 100% of the time, will be Japanese. Even in the case of something like Black Lagoon. Often times, if a show takes place in a very western location (such as BL even though it takes place in Vietnam) they still will sometime use normal Japanese. BL is not one such example, but it does happen.

All that matters is if it can be properly translated. In the case of Black Lagoon or Hellsing, then it ends up being fine. I think the only time you here a honorific in Hellsing is from Walter when he says "Integra-sama" which can easily, and accurately, be translated as "Sir Integra" (even though Integra is a woman).

actaully in that context going by out it would be spoken there it would be "Madam Integra" which that fits IMO.. but like in a school setting where someone calls and upper classmen "sempai" there is just no translation for that

I agree it has to do with the context and location, but the total removal is bad IMO, its got to fit the situation, and if it doesn't it really feels off

[Zalis116]

Since I was "raised on" R1 subs and only later moved on to fansubs, I don't really care if honorifics are included or not. I don't mind them being included. However, they can lead to secondary problems like overly-small text, too much text on the screen (2 lines spanning the whole width of the image = bad, 3-liners = worse), or oversimplification of the main content. If they're not included, I can hear them in the audio just fine.

And that's one of the main arguments against them -- they don't provide useful information to people who don't already know what they mean and how they work. Whereas people with enough Japanese knowledge to understand honorifics can parse them out from the audio. Do any modern fansubs have info like this in-episode or on their forums? No, they expect people to already know it all, which creates a steep learning curve and thus a barrier to entry.

Buuuut... I'll turn around and say that I'm guilty of the same behavior in the fansubs I work on. I use the standard chan/san/kun/sama suffixes, as well as standalones like senpai and sensei. Sibling terms get translated though, as addressing elder sibling by title is an uncommon but not unknown practice in English. If I do keep onee-chan and the like in, I restrict them to direct address only. Indirect references get replaced with "my <sibling>", <name>, or other alternatives.

After all, my goal in fansubbing is to maximize praise and minimize criticism while maintaining my vision on how to present the anime in question.  On the honorifics issue, you have A: {People who want honorifics}, B: {People who don't want honorifics}, and C: {People who don't care either way}. Since A are more numerous and outspoken about their preferences than B, and C won't complain either way, it makes more sense to include honorifics in fansubs. Not so much on DVD subs, due to the "barriers to entry" problems.

[kureshii]

I prefer honorific suffixes, onii/onee stuff, etc. to be left on. If it's not there, I can deal with it, because I can just hear how they said it for myself, but if the translator tries to idiotically translate it into an English term, I end up getting distracted thinking about how stupid the translation sounds.

There is at least ONE instance where I would prefer the westernization of such terms, though, and that is when the context is clearly meant to be western itself. A show that is supposed to be about Americans or Europeans speaking English, German, French, etc., for example, like Spice and Wolf, is probably better off with western-style names and titles.

^

[relic2279]

And that's one of the main arguments against them -- they don't provide useful information to people who don't already know what they mean and how they work.

That's exactly why I think it's opinion based.

Those trying to learn and understand the culture and/or language definitely need to see/hear honorifics. If only to understand the significance of usuage. Those that don't care about culture would likely be better off be watching dubs. This way, both parties win.

However, if you are accustomed too, or understands honorifics, don't deprive others who might be trying to learn. That's my stance anyways.

[Spanks]

And that's one of the main arguments against them -- they don't provide useful information to people who don't already know what they mean and how they work. Whereas people with enough Japanese knowledge to understand honorifics can parse them out from the audio. Do any modern fansubs have info like this in-episode or on their forums? No, they expect people to already know it all, which creates a steep learning curve and thus a barrier to entry.

I remember seeing those kinds of explanations for words/situation/honorifics on animes when I first started watching anime and they were very useful. But now I don"t see them anymore, do fansubs not do them anymore or was I watching R1?