Warcraft Cataclysm

[Tatsujin]

Brings me back to my main gripe with MMOs.

Lack of technicality, you don't have to be skilled. Drop in the the right gear and replicate mechanically the working tactics and there you go.

Sure, some can't even master something that basic

PvE is surely easy once you nail down the mechanic. Rinse and repeat and you get more valors and loot. But I still can't quiet understand why you don't have to be skilled. Because in reality, non-skilled people who stand in stupid shit, don't know how to build threat, heal or DPS, slow as fuck to react to shit or even a little slow are people that don't have the skills/awareness to take down a boss.

PvP, on the other hand, is a different story

[zat0x91]

Brings me back to my main gripe with MMOs.

Lack of technicality, you don't have to be skilled. Drop in the the right gear and replicate mechanically the working tactics and there you go.

Sure, some can't even master something that basic

Hey, if it's that easy, why don't you try doing Heroic: Al'Akir on 25?  Oh wait, only ~30 guilds have killed him on 25 heroic; it must be the lack of gear.

[Fool010]

There's a whole difference between being skilled and being a highly trained mimicking robot.

Funny how people get anal once you remind them that anything they achieve in a game is nothing of great merit. Even funnier is how serious some are about something that useless, SHFG syndrome ?

Sorry, doesn't impress me

@Tatsujin : what you're describing isn't lack of skill but ineptitude. You can very well perform without any major skill, you just have to replicate what works ... not even because you found out yourself, but because you've been told or looked up the corresponding wiki. What I do regret in MMOs is the fact there aren't that much different ways of playing a class/profession or whatever you call it. You can't play the game the way you want, you have to stick to the true and tried tactics. Not because they work better than others, but because at some point they're the only ones to work.

That's a gameplay limitation I never really grew accustomed to, because it's basically rewarding lack of individuality for the sake of achieving 'performance'. When your playing gets mechanical to the point you could program a bot to do it for you, you can start asking yourself if it really takes skill. As for myself, I consider it to cheapen the achievement.

@freidax : well, we can safely assume that planning (or lack of it) makes up a good part of success or failure. Making sure everyone knows the plan and their role is also part of planning, but is often forgotten.

[xfreidax]

Most of the time it doesn't take much skill I agree. All pve can be done with average skills, you don't need to be exceptional at all. Success and failure boils down to a few simple things.

1. Gathering a group of players of similar skill levels. Don't need to be great, average will do.
2. Be able to follow instruction when needed and act independently as necessary. ie players who actually think during a fight.
3. Have plenty of time.
4. Knowing the encounter well.

That's all you will ever need to raid successfully. Of course it's not easy to find 25 guys you can depend on and organize them into a raid.

[Havoc10K]

knowing tacs and following them are two different and apparently very hard thing to do.
you can read and learn tacs easily, but to actually follow them is a serious matter, even if people know tacs, it's hard for them to follow instructions, some encounters can be done in different ways, they can depend on what classes you have with you in what specs, 25 man are easy enough, cuz you can have all classes possible, in most roles, and specs, but in 10 man you can't have that luxury, so in terms of challenge 10 mans are more interesting, in terms of difficulty level, 25 mans are more fun, I envy those guild that do stuff regularrily, at least I join many of other guild runs as a pug, i'm well known among some and have decently good rep, on my shaman as resto, no one died where I was healing, as a tank DK I never lost mobs/bosses interest in me

saying PVE doesn't need skill is silly, i'm not gonna say PVP doesn't need it, but your survival in PVP is based on resilience(50%)+skill(20%)+coordination(20%)+luck(10%) so PVP has one more stat to keep an eye on, improving your survival chance, in PVP gear isn't as important as skill, you can gave just enough gear to enter a raid (346 average Ilvl) and skills that let you keep high DPS or keep aggro, or effectively heal, it's all about haste and proper rotations, (I hate high haste cuz it breaks my rotation with which i have around 15-19k dps in 10 mans).
in PVE you need, proper gear lvl, skill, coordination, and that is all, luck doesn't exist there cuz if you have good group you don't need any, it just comes, but skill is needed, and it's not simply mashing buttons, it's correct rotations, talent specc, gear adjustment, everything has it's impact on your progress.

i hate it when I'm pugging on my Tank, and average DPS is about my own, then I simply ask myslef, do I need to be here ? then I announce, AFK 2 mins, after 2 mins I leave the group, and join a new one
if Tank has DPS around your own, you are worse than the ass of a donkey

[Fool010]

in PVE you need, proper gear lvl, skill, coordination, and that is all, luck doesn't exist there cuz if you have good group you don't need any, it just comes, but skill is needed, and it's not simply mashing buttons, it's correct rotations, talent specc, gear adjustment, everything has it's impact on your progress.

Nice fantasy world you're living in.

Oh wait, I get it ... it has to be skill, if not you couldn't brag about how great you're doing, right ?

[Tatsujin]

There's a whole difference between being skilled and being a highly trained mimicking robot.

Funny how people get anal once you remind them that anything they achieve in a game is nothing of great merit. Even funnier is how serious some are about something that useless, SHFG syndrome ?

Sorry, doesn't impress me

@Tatsujin : what you're describing isn't lack of skill but ineptitude. You can very well perform without any major skill, you just have to replicate what works ... not even because you found out yourself, but because you've been told or looked up the corresponding wiki. What I do regret in MMOs is the fact there aren't that much different ways of playing a class/profession or whatever you call it. You can't play the game the way you want, you have to stick to the true and tried tactics. Not because they work better than others, but because at some point they're the only ones to work.

That's a gameplay limitation I never really grew accustomed to, because it's basically rewarding lack of individuality for the sake of achieving 'performance'. When your playing gets mechanical to the point you could program a bot to do it for you, you can start asking yourself if it really takes skill. As for myself, I consider it to cheapen the achievement.

@freidax : well, we can safely assume that planning (or lack of it) makes up a good part of success or failure. Making sure everyone knows the plan and their role is also part of planning, but is often forgotten.

Ah okay. In your own words then, right? In our World of ... Warcraft, we call that skill and field awareness.

in PVE you need, proper gear lvl, skill, coordination, and that is all, luck doesn't exist there cuz if you have good group you don't need any, it just comes, but skill is needed, and it's not simply mashing buttons, it's correct rotations, talent specc, gear adjustment, everything has it's impact on your progress.

Nice fantasy world you're living in.

Oh wait, I get it ... it has to be skill, if not you couldn't brag about how great you're doing, right ?

Havoc nailed it down.

Fool010. You play WoW? Are you in an end game guild? I'm really curious at the moment.

And we love fantasy worlds. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Havoc10K]

lets say you have decent dps gear but you spent all efforts possible on haste rating, if your rotation is incorrectly adjusted for the haste rating you dps will be a burden than help in any raid, earning you a kick in the pixels, me and my friends actually spend a few hours adjusting the little pixelated stats to make the best out of what we have, so that we contribute to the raid progress instead of being a fifth wheel

I'd like to see how you go DPS with 800 haste rating without crits and mastery heheh, or even hit

[Fool010]

I see your point, but your use of 'skill' is way too liberal. What you're both describing is nothing more than practise.

[Havoc10K]

of curse, practice makes perfect, that is skill, what else did you think of ?

[mgz]

of curse, practice makes perfect, that is skill, what else did you think of ?

as a previous wow player i will say it dont take skill.

Its more about following a plan and following a do and dont do list.

Skills would be what are needed to move your mouse and push buttons.

Realistically its not being skilled even on a level of gamer. Its being good at following a strat.

Thats like saying that the grunts in the marines are military geniuses because they did what their commander told them to and it worked.

[Havoc10K]

to me skill is actually correct rotation of spells/abilities, and gear setup, and following tacs, if you fuck up, you better be a gnome, easier to pick up and kick out

[dcudney]

If you are going by that, then i would say the people who spent the time figuring out what items to use to get the most bang for your buck are the skillful ones.  The rest just went to a website and read what to use and followed suit, nothing skillful about loading up a web browser and reading what skills in what order to use.  Or what armor to get and what to enchant it with.

If anything the Raid leaders and guys spending hours figuring out rotations are the skillful ones.  The majority of people just take their work and use it.  That is not skill in any form,  smart it maybe but skill it is not!

Always enjoy reading stuff like this where a select few think its all about skill.  Skill left most video games a long time ago, but none the less they are still fun!

And even with skill taken out of video games there are still plenty of failbots who can't get it right

[Havoc10K]

well I like screwing up in hack and slash games cuz I didn't get that skill lol, and it made me fail
now how to work around it is the question.
but yeah, when I get a new item (or items) that improve my stats but lower others, I spend some time fixing rotations, be it healing, damage or tanking, if you have a proper rotation, you can sleep and fight at the same time, like I did a few months ago on a few bosses in ICC 25 skipping the part that the ICC bosses are terribly easy

[zat0x91]

If anything the Raid leaders and guys spending hours figuring out rotations are the skillful ones.  The majority of people just take their work and use it.  That is not skill in any form,  smart it maybe but skill it is not!

Most raid leaders aren't as "skilled" as you may think because they're just trying different strategy's from wowwiki or whatever else.

Theorycrafters "figure out rotations" on the PTR long before it even it comes out, then they just post the information on websites like Elitist Jerks.  Sure it tells you everything that you need to perform well, but does it mean a person will?  Try playing a fire mage; there's no rotation, just priority list and there's a endless amount of things that you could change due to proc's, amount of mana, amount of adds out, etc.  It's not as simple as you may think...

Ever wonder why it's not so easy to hit the top 5 on World of Logs?

[Fool010]

Ever wonder why it's not so easy to hit the top 5 on World of Logs?

Because many don't give a shit about sitting on top of a world that doesn't exist ?

[zat0x91]

Many do.

[Fool010]

Many do.

Nice for them, just don't count on me to admire that.

[Stsin]

Difficulty of raiding is overrated.  My small guild doesn't raid that often and when we do, we often PuG to fill up our 10 man.   And with only a few tries we've made it to the end boss of each raid.  Often watching videos for the strat just before pull.

This is my warlock:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/frostwolf/marci/simple
She got geared quickly and easily, considering the number of times she stepped in a raid instance.  No, she did not get carried, often being at the top of the dps chart or atleast top 3.

But with them destroying locks viability in PvP, I've given up on WoW.  I play on a PvP server and when I can hardly survive 1v1 from just doing dailies, that's a huge chunk of my time removed from my time on WoW.  Just logging in to do a Heroic daily, doesn't cut it, especially since I won't be needing it soon.  I've even lost interest in logging in to do just the raids.  Realizing, what is the point when I'm never on other than that anyways?

Rift couldn't have come at a better time   My WoW account has been canceled.

[Tatsujin]

If anything the Raid leaders and guys spending hours figuring out rotations are the skillful ones.  The majority of people just take their work and use it.  That is not skill in any form,  smart it maybe but skill it is not!

Most raid leaders aren't as "skilled" as you may think because they're just trying different strategy's from wowwiki or whatever else.

Theorycrafters "figure out rotations" on the PTR long before it even it comes out, then they just post the information on websites like Elitist Jerks.  Sure it tells you everything that you need to perform well, but does it mean a person will?  Try playing a fire mage; there's no rotation, just priority list and there's a endless amount of things that you could change due to proc's, amount of mana, amount of adds out, etc.  It's not as simple as you may think...

Ever wonder why it's not so easy to hit the top 5 on World of Logs?

Those that spend time, gold, effort and lots of theorycrafting and nail down their rotations are the skilled players. That you can identify from people who fuck up, don't do the numbers people look for (threat, dps, healing) and pop CDs at the correct time.

There are a lot of fail raid leaders out there. I wouldn't depend on "one" person to raid lead the entire pack. I'd depend on several officers plus a raid leader. That's extra minds put into it rather than a single mind.