Author Topic: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card  (Read 2655 times)

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« on: August 24, 2010, 04:16:09 PM »
Here's a set of slightly philosophical questions for us folks stuck with older systems (and without the answer 'replace your computer' - to some that could be an impractical answer).

Say you have a good working computer that you're using for videos and playbacks - up until the last few years, that wasn't much of an issue, with almost any hunk-of-junk system being able to handle 480p vids.  But lately, as we all know, what with the HD massacre rampaging through the fansubbing communities, which is more important for those of us with these older, but basically just viable machines in your opinion?

Now, for the sake of argument, we will stay within a paramiter of machine types - no one expects a 12 year old PIII systems to be able to drive HD vids, so we won't go there.  But machines made from a year or two after the release of XP and OS10 (and yea, you folks with Lynux as well), just when the early Media Centers were hitting store shelves, should be able still to be upgraded to nearly usable status.  For example - my clunker...

I took the motherboard of a Dell OptiPlex 160L and remounted it in an Antec console case, then proceeded to max it out on RAM and added cards to free up said RAM from operating the video and audio.  What I did not do is max out these cards, specifically the video card.  Currently it has an nVidia 256MB beastie in it.  Of course, I can upgrade this to a 512MB if needed, seeing that this would be the final strength upgrade available to me.

The processor is a P4 2.2GHz with 8KB (L1)/512KB L2 cache, 400/533MHz FSB and 2GBs of PC-3200 DDR. Both onboard video and audio systems are disabled and sent to their respective cards (PCI based).

Current issues are - Image shatterring while using VLC on higher res vids - Video dragging/lagging on Media Player Classic on higher res (720p) vids (also occurs on Windows Media Player).

With all that, and in your humble opinions, would upgrading the video card be worth it, or just a waste of time with this processor/chipset configuration?

SECONDLY - IF you were to bare-bones from AN OLDER SYSTEM (IE: Don't just say get the latest and greatest money-burner chips and boards - some folks can't DO that, and there are many bargans to be had out there). what would your reccomendations for MINIMUM Processor, chipset and video cards be to run mid-ranged HD videos?  (Mind you, this is also assuming they DO have a monitor that can handle HD as well.)

A-N

Offline erious

  • Member
  • Posts: 1369
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 04:23:05 PM »
Before you buy anything - try using mplayer and see if you still can't run 720p video.
(might need some tweaking in options, but afair it's all rather intuitive)
It really does wonders with video playback on slower PCs.
Since I'm a bit out of the loop with actual best value for money nowadays, I'll leave the hardware advice for the folks with more current information.

Offline bork

  • Member
  • Posts: 251
  • Huh ?
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 04:32:21 PM »
Most of the newer/decent video cards are now PCIe and more the likely not available on your existing motherboard.  This might limit your capability to do much upgrading.   

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 04:55:57 PM »
Before you buy anything - try using mplayer and see if you still can't run 720p video.
(might need some tweaking in options, but afair it's all rather intuitive)
It really does wonders with video playback on slower PCs.
Since I'm a bit out of the loop with actual best value for money nowadays, I'll leave the hardware advice for the folks with more current information.

Yes, I should have added what player for a limited system would be advisable as well.  Thanks.

Remember though, the questions are about systems more than software, though if that's a fix, we'll see.

Most of the newer/decent video cards are now PCIe and more the likely not available on your existing motherboard.  This might limit your capability to do much upgrading.  

There are still quite a few PCI based 512MBs available (more than IDE/PATA Hard Drives at least) - That's what us scroungers do - SCROUNGE!  ;)

A-N

« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:00:12 PM by arknorth »

Offline x5ga

  • Member
  • Posts: 1941
  • 20% cooler
    • Evil Flowers
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 05:03:32 PM »
most video decoders rely on the CPU for the actual decoding, the video card doing only the rendering stuff. A P4 has a pretty good decoding speed, considering its age. Also a 256MB video card should be more than enough for rendering 1080p videos. My advice would be to use CoreAVC+media player classic homecinema, and if it doesn't work (720p should work with your configuration, can't say for sure that 1080p will) upgrade the CPU. I doubt any P4 motherboard has a PCIe slot, and all the newer video cards use that slot. You didn't specify the exact model of the video card, but it might support CUDA if it's a nVidia, so CoreAVC could use that to help improve the decoding speed. Still, the main upgrade would be a new CPU+Motherboard.

About the minimum specs for watching HD videos... I sincerely can't say for sure, but I'd recommend at least a dual-core CPU, 2GB of RAM and at least a ATi Radeon HD2xxx series (or the equivalent from nVidia). Or you could try and get a HD4xxx series and the cheapest CPU/motherboard with a PCIe slot and decode HD material using DXVA. That should probably be the cheapest option.

Offline Lupin

  • Member
  • Posts: 2169
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 06:11:57 PM »
Get a dual core processor, and a motherboard with onboard video. Unless you're gaming, you don't really need discrete video. If you add coreavc to the mix, you can probably play 1080p as well. You also need new ram.

Offline rathoriel

  • Member
  • Posts: 809
  • Go Blue!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 11:11:09 PM »
CoreAVC works wonders. I have a asus eeepc and a alienware m9700 and both had some issues with 720p. After installing CoreAVC the issues seem to have gone away (I tested using appleseed exmachina 720p...in the opening seen with the missiles flying there was studering before installing CoreAVC but it went away after that. didn't watch it all the way thru on these machines.) I am downloading ghost in the shell solid state society 1080p to test on both machines. will keep you updated.

[16:59:46] <+xgraphy> youure a fuck troll

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2010, 12:13:24 AM »
My advice would be to use CoreAVC+media player classic homecinema, and if it doesn't work (720p should work with your configuration, can't say for sure that 1080p will) upgrade the CPU. I doubt any P4 motherboard has a PCIe slot, and all the newer video cards use that slot. You didn't specify the exact model of the video card, but it might support CUDA if it's a nVidia, so CoreAVC could use that to help improve the decoding speed.
CoreAVC works wonders. I have a asus eeepc and a alienware m9700 and both had some issues with 720p. After installing CoreAVC the issues seem to have gone away (I tested using appleseed exmachina 720p...in the opening seen with the missiles flying there was studering before installing CoreAVC but it went away after that. didn't watch it all the way thru on these machines.) I am downloading ghost in the shell solid state society 1080p to test on both machines. will keep you updated.

Okay - Assuming I'm a cheap Son-of-an-Otaku, and I am... you both suggest CoreAVC Media Player - except that you have to PAY for it (unlike the likes of MPC and VLC).  Is it guananteed to work better just because it's a pay for?

BTW - the video card on my beastie is an EVGA nVidia 6200.

A-N

Offline rathoriel

  • Member
  • Posts: 809
  • Go Blue!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 12:17:30 AM »
$9.95 is cheap compared to parts upgrades

http://corecodec.com/products/coreavc

[16:59:46] <+xgraphy> youure a fuck troll

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 12:35:38 AM »
$9.95 is cheap compared to parts upgrades

http://corecodec.com/products/coreavc

True true!  Mind you, I'm playing devil's advocate here, so I agree.  Mind you also, as an example, I downloaded MPlayer as suggested, and found it worse (sorry about that eriuos) than MPC's staggers and VLC's shattered screen.  So you can also see why I'd be a bit gun-shy about laying down actual funds for something that might not work.

But, we'll see what happens ;)

A-N

Offline x5ga

  • Member
  • Posts: 1941
  • 20% cooler
    • Evil Flowers
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 12:36:05 AM »
yes, coreavc is worth it. It made my netbook play 1080p videos. with ffdshow it even stuttered on 720p ones. And if you don't wanna pay for it, there are ways to get it without any money... the internet is a magical place :)

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 12:49:20 AM »
And if you don't wanna pay for it, there are ways to get it without any money... the internet is a magical place :)
:o

Ahem... ::)

We won't go there...  ;D

A-N

Offline sdedalus83

  • Member
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 02:08:21 AM »
Now, for the sake of argument, we will stay within a paramiter of machine types - no one expects a 12 year old PIII systems to be able to drive HD vids, so we won't go there.  But machines made from a year or two after the release of XP and OS10 (and yea, you folks with Lynux as well), just when the early Media Centers were hitting store shelves, should be able still to be upgraded to nearly usable status.  For example - my clunker...


The processor is a P4 2.2GHz with 8KB (L1)/512KB L2 cache,

SECONDLY - IF you were to bare-bones from AN OLDER SYSTEM (IE: Don't just say get the latest and greatest money-burner chips and boards - some folks can't DO that, and there are many bargans to be had out there). what would your reccomendations for MINIMUM Processor, chipset and video cards be to run mid-ranged HD videos?  (Mind you, this is also assuming they DO have a monitor that can handle HD as well.)

A-N

To be honest, the last PIIIs sold would be better for HD playback than that P4.  Your only real upgrade option would be something like an AGP HD3850, and that will cost about $50 without addressing the issue of your woefully inadequate processor.

My minimum recommendation would be an Athlon II X2, an AM3 785G board (the two can be had together for about $100), and 1GB of DDR3

~$120, will play anything, has a serviceable GPU with hardware video acceleration, a CPU with good overclocking potential, and can be upgraded to vastly superior processors and GPUs.  Anything less doesn't save enough money to be worthwhile.

Offline vuzedome

  • Member
  • Posts: 6376
  • Reppuzan~!
  • Awards Winner of the BakaBT Mahjong tournament 2010
    • GoGreenToday
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2010, 12:22:40 PM »
DXVA is good and all, but a good CPU will do just fine, doesn't mean you can neglect installing a good display card.
BBT Ika Musume Fan Club Member #000044   
Misaka Mikoto Fan Club Member #000044
BBT Duke Nukem Fan Club Member #0000002

Offline sapsa

  • Member
  • Posts: 280
  • ^_^
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2010, 12:35:13 AM »
I would go for:
1) buy cheap nvidia gfx that support cuda like 8800gt
2) install coreavs with mpc-hc
3) profit !?

my spec: e2180@3Ghz + 8800 + 2Gb Ram = Win with 1080p :)

~ Quality over Quantity ~
~ Standardization make life simpler ~

Offline datora

  • Member
  • Posts: 1411
  • "Warning! Otaku logic powers in use!"
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2010, 08:25:27 PM »
Hey A-N!

Like you, I'm a cheapa$$ scrounger.  Have assembled lots of get-the-job-done systems from parts, and renovated/resurrected a couple dozen boxes that just need to web surf, do some word processing & music & photo viewing.  I only stopped supporting Win2000 early this year when I finally junked my last Celeron box w/ 256 MB RAM.  It still worked fine for most basics.  I'm getting ready to make the leap to Win7 sometime in the next couple of months (it was a deliberate strategy to bypass Vista entirely, which I'm proud to say worked beautifully), but I will be supporting various WinXP home & pro boxes for at least another year or two.


You have 2GB DDR Ram, which seems to be running at 400 MHz.  You do not need more.  Check out your BIOS and see if you can run the system at 533, it's good.  Make sure that your chips are actually matched and running in true dual channel, more important than single channel @533 MHz.


I run a WinXP pro system with 1 GB (2 x 512 MB) 400 MHz RAM, CAS Latency 2.  It has NEVER been the problem.  I monitor mem use, and my system never exceeds 800 MB use, usually it cruises along at ~350-450, up to 550-600 with lots of apps going and long browser sessions.  I've run 1080 encodes in *.mkv/*.mp4 and many more.  Some work, some don't.  Many don't.

My system runs lean (about 36-40 processes running, including antivirus and mpc-hc) when watching video.  When they don't run, it's always because the CPU is maxing out.  Never RAM; even when videos are crashing all over, RAM use is usually under 600 MB and often under 500 (system without video running and otherwise all else off uses a base of ~240-280 MB w/ Trend Micro AV running, usually ~1%-4% CPU use).

So, tweak system and get it running at idle as lean as possible before you start installing & tweaking players & codecs.  I can kill a couple of unnecessary process (java and win updates) & the system runs on 28 or 29 @ idle.


I'm running a Pentium 4 (Northwood) D1 core 2 (not core 2 duo) at 3 GHz.  200MHz (x 2 cores = 400 MHz) System Bus (FSB).  It handles pretty much everything I've thrown at it @720 and lower.  Can't recall a 720 vid that didn't run.  About 1/3 of my 1080 attempts work, usually with smaller files, generally about max. 6 GB for ~100minute movie.

Intel motherboard D875PBZ.

Video card is PNY nVidia G73 [GeForce 7600 GS] on an AGP V3.0 x8 slot.  512 MB DDR RAM @270MHz, GPU @400MHz.  This runs my DELL ST2210 monitor @1920 x 1080 @60 HZ vertical refresh in full 32-bit color.  It's gorgeous & rock steady.

Check and make sure which AGP version you're running.  Certainly, it helps if you're using a true 8x slot.


On this system, I've found the one bottleneck for HD video is the CPU, every single time.

I can tweak my player (pretty much always mpc-hc) and sometimes get a marginal movie to play .. but, it really depends on the encode.  Some are better than others.  Those with "less better" optimized encode and with more data to decode, the CPU hits 100% on both cores and you are out of joy.

If you're not aware of them, you can get pretty much all necessary system information with:

 - http://rh-software.com/ (SIV System Information Viewer)
 - http://www.belarc.com/free_download.html (Belarc Advisor )

And, of course, your manual for your motherboard & its BIOS.


I posted this because this is the best system I have right now (currently rebuilding 4 x Dell GX 260s that were donated to me .. destined as my linux sandboxes).

I consider my system adequate for most of what I'm viewing; I'm no videophile and can't advise on players/codecs ... I'm still learning those.  But these hardware specs are "on the margin."  I'd say it will be very difficult to get performance out of anything more than about 5%-10% weaker ... and I mean specifically the CPU.  I think you're screwed with any single core.


As a side note, one reason I'm rebuilding the GX260s is I think it might be possible for them to run linux Mint as low-powered home cinema boxes.  Still checking all specs and deciding if I need/want to put in graphics cards.  These two seem my best bet to max these systems from available technology today:

 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161318 (DDR3 memory)
 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814139043 (DDR2 memory)

But, really, I need to determine the CPUs in these boxes & if it's possible to upgrade them ... I'm pretty sure they're 2.2 or 2.4 GHz P4 single cores.  Each box has 1 GB (2 x 512 DDR) CAS Latency 2.5 RAM.  If the slots are AGP 4x and I can't locate better processors (like 2.8 or 3.0 GHz), I don't have much faith.  These cards are more interesting for the dual monitor support they offer, not because I think they'd tip the scales for HD video (they might in some cases) or because I expect to play high-end games.  I'm still happy with Chessmaster, Arcanum, Age of Empires II and Fallout 2 ... if I ever get free time  :)

Anyway, I really won't put my time onto any systems that fall below these Dell GX260 specs, not even as linux servers.  I've already turned a few down this year due to time constraints.  You can't even find SATA 1.5 drives anymore ... you have to cripple SATA 3 drives to make those compatible (as I discovered for my main system, as described above).  SATA 6 drives can't be crippled enough to run on a 1.5 mobo.  ,,,and let us not even discuss the absurd prices for an 80 or 160 GB PATA drive ...  >:(


Oh, yeah and about CoreAVC ... if you want to be so honest and honorable, you can always pick up a 'free' version long enough to evaluate it.  If it works, go ahead and buy.  If not, uninstall and sleep easy.  ;)
I win, once again, in my never-ending struggle against victory.

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2010, 11:37:32 AM »
Aye on all accounts - but remember, these questions are for general use - not just my system(s) - I already know that the hunk-of-junk under my TV needs serious upgrading.  But even there, I find issues with what is best for the least money - sometimes even WITH money there is a lack of functionality.  For this exemple, we turn around (in my living room that is) and face the other machine sitting here - ye old custom built power hungry monster that hasn't lived up to it's potential - EVER.  This beastie screams power (if not just slightly older power, but power nonetheless).

I seriously think its a motherboard issue here, so there may be other problems holding it back.  It has the following -

ASROCK P4V88 Motherboard with a P4HT 3.3GHz Prescott & VIA PT88 NB/8237 SB chipsets
3GB PC-3200 DDR 4400MHz RAM (Limited to 3MHz due to 32Bit XP Home installed - sigh)
Saphire/ATI 512GB AGP8x/4x Video Card
Sound BLASTER 24Bit Audigy Sound Card
2 PATA HDs & 1 500GB SATA HD

The original idea was for the SATA drive to be the boot drive, but I could never get the onboard SATA jacks to work - wound up adding an SATA PCI card to the unit to get that drive working, which is why I think this might be more a motherboard issue.  After I managed to get everything up and running, so to speak, the system would stutter (you can actually hear it in the audio,when a simple Ka-DINK sound will come out KA-A-A-A-D-D-D-IIIIN-K-K-K).  BUT, today, I tried a turn at playing videos through it, which was one of the reasons to build it in the first place - this beastie was going to be our graphics machine that hosted things like Adobe CS and video editing software, but it hasn't lived up to its potential.  Anywho, when I played a test video in this one (the sample used was the BakaBT copy of [Nekomimi] Sora no Wato, the same shatterring of the image in VLC and slow video Vs normal audio in MPC happened.

Oddly enough, the only computers in the arsenal that would play this video properly were the two Dell Latitudes (a D600 and a D510) we have - two beat up clanky old Latitudes.  The one (the D600) is a meer P4M 1.7GHz with 2GB DDR RAM and an ATI video chip, and the other (the D510) has a 1.8GHz P4M with 2GBs of DDR2 memory, and an Intel integrated video chip.  Mind you, that's only on the more basic videos, but certainly more than what the big machines can do, and not totally without issues.

It irks me... Irks I say!

A-N
« Last Edit: August 29, 2010, 11:41:48 AM by arknorth »

Offline vuzedome

  • Member
  • Posts: 6376
  • Reppuzan~!
  • Awards Winner of the BakaBT Mahjong tournament 2010
    • GoGreenToday
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2010, 03:01:43 PM »
I see what you got going there, neat, cheap as dirt and bananas, but maybe dumping in more for a better CPU will do a whole lot of good.
BBT Ika Musume Fan Club Member #000044   
Misaka Mikoto Fan Club Member #000044
BBT Duke Nukem Fan Club Member #0000002

Offline sdedalus83

  • Member
  • Posts: 2867
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 03:12:48 PM »
Oddly enough, the only computers in the arsenal that would play this video properly were the two Dell Latitudes (a D600 and a D510) we have - two beat up clanky old Latitudes.  The one (the D600) is a meer P4M 1.7GHz with 2GB DDR RAM and an ATI video chip, and the other (the D510) has a 1.8GHz P4M with 2GBs of DDR2 memory, and an Intel integrated video chip.  Mind you, that's only on the more basic videos, but certainly more than what the big machines can do, and not totally without issues.

It irks me... Irks I say!

A-N

I can guarantee those are Pentium Ms(an evolution of the PIII and the first product in the string of designs which led to the Core 2), not Pentium 4 Ms - the latitudes were thin and lights.  There's no surprise whatsoever that they can play the videos when the P4s can't.  Netburst was the worst Intel architecture since the first, bugged Pentium.

Offline arknorth

  • Member
  • Posts: 45
  • The Well Aged One - The Observer
    • AnimeMangaWorld!
Re: Processor/Chipset Vs Video Card
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 03:31:54 PM »
I can guarantee those are Pentium Ms(an evolution of the PIII and the first product in the string of designs which led to the Core 2), not Pentium 4 Ms - the latitudes were thin and lights.  There's no surprise whatsoever that they can play the videos when the P4s can't.  Netburst was the worst Intel architecture since the first, bugged Pentium.

Yes, my typing fingers hit the 4 out of habit - indeed those are Ms.

So you say that even a monster like that 3.3GHz HT thing is a worthless hunk of junk.  Any ideas on why it has that stutter to it?

Mmmm... bananas!

A-N